Thief Balancing

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

 

I told you not to argue with him. I know you understand theif and i know you play it a lot but this dude is something different please dont argue it will just show devs if any ever appear here that we cant even put together what we want which is not true. We know what we want Vinie just sees things his way. Fortunatelly nobody else sees it that way so please dont argue with him.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> I'm not even surprise anymore.

 

Yes you are not. AAHAHAAHA this made me laugh out so loud i surely woke up someone xD

And as far as Theives staying power goes.

It varies acording to skill level.

Thief has staying power in terms of 1v1 at least it had it so far i dont know how power build fare but condi is stil viable to me and i can hold a point.

[Duckota.4769]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> SE got statistically speaking only **buffed**.

> However, it gets trickier. In WvW the +240 power is a nerf, in sPvP +240 power is a buff due to standardized Stats.

>

> Regarding the Steal reduction part, that one got also "buffed not buffed", the 25% per 10sec is simply going to be a Buff in some scenarios and nerf in other scenarios as compared to 50% per 30sec. While, just mathematicaly speaking, the new SE gives 25% more recharge than the old SE.

>

> Speaking for myself I think it will play out as a buff for S/D Thief in sPvP.

 

Maybe. To me I see it as before I could engage with steal and easily have a 2nd if I wanted to bait an attack for a dodge. Now not so much. 25% just doesnt reset it. Where before chances are enough time had passed to almost immediately have a 2nd one at the start of a fight. Imo I dont really care about cooldowns being shorter on a thief. Id rather have the better immediate effect. I can always reset a fight at will and wait on cds if I want to play that way. Id just rather do that less often. (Mostly wvw player here who partakes in duels here and there.) You may very well be right on pvp.

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Duckota.4769" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > SE got statistically speaking only **buffed**.

> > However, it gets trickier. In WvW the +240 power is a nerf, in sPvP +240 power is a buff due to standardized Stats.

> >

> > Regarding the Steal reduction part, that one got also "buffed not buffed", the 25% per 10sec is simply going to be a Buff in some scenarios and nerf in other scenarios as compared to 50% per 30sec. While, just mathematicaly speaking, the new SE gives 25% more recharge than the old SE.

> >

> > Speaking for myself I think it will play out as a buff for S/D Thief in sPvP.

>

> Maybe. To me I see it as before I could engage with steal and easily have a 2nd if I wanted to bait an attack for a dodge. Now not so much. 25% just doesnt reset it. Where before chances are enough time had passed to almost immediately have a 2nd one at the start of a fight. Imo I dont really care about cooldowns being shorter on a thief. Id rather have the better immediate effect. I can always reset a fight at will and wait on cds if I want to play that way. Id just rather do that less often. (Mostly wvw player here who partakes in duels here and there.) You may very well be right on pvp.

 

I already created two posts on the subject of SE cooldown, the reason why it seems this way to you is because the ICD of the new SE is currently bugged and still uses the 30sec cooldown but resets the new 25%. You will have to wait till Anet fixes it to see how it works out for you.

 

If you check the _News and Announcements_ and _Game Release Notes_ sections of Forum, you will see that they already fixed several other Traits of other professions, but still no SE fix which is a serious nerf at the moment.

That's **so** Thief it's not even fun.

[Exitus.3297]

This really isn't complicated to figure out. The nerf to Lead Attacks affects all Thief classes. Thief mains are frustrated by this because of a couple of reasons:

 

1) Why are they applying a nerf to a trait that affects most Thief builds when it was Deadeye being overbearing? Most Deadeye builds don't even use Trickery.

2) This nerf affects some builds more than others. Core S/D won't be hurt by this as much because they have a little better sticking power.

3) Combine this with the obvious buff to Swindler's Equilibrium, and players notice they are making changes that lean players more toward Core S/D more so than they already were despite that it was already the Meta Thief pick.

4) D/P Daredevils, on the other hand, are most effected by this change despite not being part of any big problem. Up to a 15% damage boost is not a joke, and it phases them out of competitive environments further than they already were.

5) Meanwhile (and most frustrating to me personally), the more cancerous aspects of Deadeye that make them so frustrating to fight get untouched. (Stealth after dodging, shorter Revealed duration in sPvP, etc)

 

I'm not frustrated by nerfs. I'm frustrated by nerfs _that don't make sense._ They never pointed out why they are nerfing Lead Attacks. The only pointed out that they were doing it. I would have taken a Dagger Storm nerf because of how hard it got power-creeped. The change to Consume Plasma made sense to me. I could go on, but the point I'm making is that this nerf was out completely out of left field.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

I don't get what the fuss is all about with lead attacks. You still get the full stacks, just can spam blk powder hs anymore and jump in with an instant 15%dmg

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Something else to consider is that core S/D was mainly meta because of firebrand, and that took a nerf this patch as well. Also, as fat disgrace points out, you can still get the 15% from lead attacks, just not immediately at the start of combat anymore, and the extra power from swindler's is fine in WvW once you swap a few pieces of gear round to make the most of the extra power (most sword thieves run some defensive gear, so there's a bit of leeway there).

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Exitus.3297" said:

> This really isn't complicated to figure out. The nerf to Lead Attacks affects all Thief classes. Thief mains are frustrated by this because of a couple of reasons:

>

> 1) Why are they applying a nerf to a trait that affects most Thief builds when it was Deadeye being overbearing? Most Deadeye builds don't even use Trickery.

> 2) This nerf affects some builds more than others. Core S/D won't be hurt by this as much because they have a little better sticking power.

> 3) Combine this with the obvious buff to Swindler's Equilibrium, and players notice they are making changes that lean players more toward Core S/D more so than they already were despite that it was already the Meta Thief pick.

> 4) D/P Daredevils, on the other hand, are most effected by this change despite not being part of any big problem. Up to a 15% damage boost is not a joke, and it phases them out of competitive environments further than they already were.

> 5) Meanwhile (and most frustrating to me personally), the more cancerous aspects of Deadeye that make them so frustrating to fight get untouched. (Stealth after dodging, shorter Revealed duration in sPvP, etc)

>

> I'm not frustrated by nerfs. I'm frustrated by nerfs _that don't make sense._ They never pointed out why they are nerfing Lead Attacks. The only pointed out that they were doing it. I would have taken a Dagger Storm nerf because of how hard it got power-creeped. The change to Consume Plasma made sense to me. I could go on, but the point I'm making is that this nerf was out completely out of left field.

 

A real nerf would be losing the %dmg per iniaitve spent, or losing the duration. This is not a "nerf" to be worried about.

[Exitus.3297]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

 

> A real nerf would be losing the %dmg per iniaitve spent, or losing the duration. This is not a "nerf" to be worried about.

 

You just stated exactly what they did. They lowered the duration to 10 seconds whilst also making unstackable out of combat. My entire point was that S/D Thieves aren't going to be affected that much. D/P Thieves, who front load their burst at the beginning of a fight, will definitely be affected by it unless they feel like emptying their entire Initiative pool right at the beginning of a fight, which is not a good idea.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Exitus.3297" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

>

> > A real nerf would be losing the %dmg per iniaitve spent, or losing the duration. This is not a "nerf" to be worried about.

>

> You just stated exactly what they did. They lowered the duration to 10 seconds whilst also making unstackable out of combat. My entire point was that S/D Thieves aren't going to be affected that much. D/P Thieves, who front load their burst at the beginning of a fight, will definitely be affected by it unless they feel like emptying their entire Initiative pool right at the beginning of a fight, which is not a good idea.

 

Don't d/p do that anyway to get 15 LA stacks at the start of the fight? That's what if seen (wvw mostly) you can always headshot to get in combat and also proc a passive trait while you're at it.

[Riko.9214]

Nerf to LA was pretty unnecessary in the duration part making it essentially 10% instead of 15% (in a fight that lasts more than 10 seconds).

 

The rest looks pretty good though especially the CB buff (finally can be used slightly further than point-blank).

[SehferViega.8725]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

 

> They already gave an explanation.

>

> "**Thief**

> When we changed malice to no longer generate over time in an earlier update, we also carried over the portion of Death's Judgment that could not be blocked. However, now that it takes a shorter time to build malice, we no longer feel like this benefit is necessary. **Additionally, we've toned down the initial burst of damage that the thief can apply by removing the ability to stack Lead Attacks when outside of combat.** We've also had the opportunity to update thief weapon traits to the new standard of having a baseline value in addition to the benefits while wielding that weapon."

>

 

The problem is that this "explanation" have no sense to justify what they done:

1st: They need to tone the initial burst of damage that ONLY DE (with malicious backstab and DJ) and DD cannon Staff can apply.

 

2nd: Do you want to tone down initial burst of damage of all thieves? well.. I do not agree (it's stupid, cause not all thief builds oneshot and if I start a fight with not full initiative, is right that I get a "sort of premium"), but they can do that. The question is an other: **why reduce the duration of Lead Attacks stacking effect from 15 seconds to 10 seconds**?! I tested it in PvE and now you have "big problems" to reach 15 stack in the middle of the fight, hold them in a fight is impossible cause thief can't spam his skill. This is a damage nerf.

 

3rd: Do you think is good nerf thief damage? (remember Exposed Weakness changes also) Well, give core thieves and DD something! Thief play generally alone (in WvW): in this year they nerf dodges, Endurance regeneration, bandid defence and damage. 4 second of evade with dagger storm is too little as compensation.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"SehferViega.8725" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

>

> > They already gave an explanation.

> >

> > "**Thief**

> > When we changed malice to no longer generate over time in an earlier update, we also carried over the portion of Death's Judgment that could not be blocked. However, now that it takes a shorter time to build malice, we no longer feel like this benefit is necessary. **Additionally, we've toned down the initial burst of damage that the thief can apply by removing the ability to stack Lead Attacks when outside of combat.** We've also had the opportunity to update thief weapon traits to the new standard of having a baseline value in addition to the benefits while wielding that weapon."

> >

>

> The problem is that this "explanation" have no sense to justify what they done:

> 1st: They need to tone the initial burst of damage that ONLY DE (with malicious backstab and DJ) and DD cannon Staff can apply.

>

 

It doesn't make sense because you're not looking from ArenaNet's perspective. If you piece together all the recent changes, it is fairly obvious that they are nerfing the burst capability of other build making burst builds exclusive to Deadeye. Once you understand their perspective, it makes sense.

 

Do you have to agree with it? I don't really think ArenaNet ever care if we agree with the changes or not.

 

> 2nd: Do you want to tone down initial burst of damage of all thieves? well.. I do not agree (it's stupid, cause not all thief builds oneshot and if I start a fight with not full initiative, is right that I get a "sort of premium"), but they can do that. The question is an other: **why reduce the duration of Lead Attacks stacking effect from 15 seconds to 10 seconds**?! I tested it in PvE and now you have "big problems" to reach 15 stack in the middle of the fight, hold them in a fight is impossible cause thief can't spam his skill. This is a damage nerf.

>

 

Everyone agrees that it is a nerf. It's a fact. And yes, we don't have to agree with every nerf that ArenaNet has done or been doing. This is not the first time they made changes that angered the player base and the reason for those anger still lingers today...but they don't care.

 

> 3rd: Do you think is good nerf thief damage? (remember Exposed Weakness changes also) Well, give core thieves and DD something! Thief play generally alone (in WvW): in this year they nerf dodges, Endurance regeneration, bandid defence and damage. 4 second of evade with dagger storm is too little as compensation.

 

Thief's nerf is relative to game mode. If they toned down Thief's damage but they also toned down other profession's durability in WvW, I wouldn't call that a nerf because the net damage output didn't change. However, if the net damage output did become lower, then it is a nerf. The changes to the Thief's overall net damage so far is on the positive...if you are using DE. You see, ArenaNet is shifting the source of the damage and still trying to maintain the overall net damage.

 

in both PvE and WvW, the changes to the Lead Attacks is negligible since most of the time, you are in combat. In PvP, it is fairly obvious that ArenaNet do no want you to decap and have the ability to +1 with 15 stacks. If you spent all your Initiatives for traveling, that kind of waste should not be rewarded.

 

Whether I agree with this or not doesn't really matter, but I won't pretend I don't understand what they are doing.

[Dahkeus.8243]

> @"Exitus.3297" said:

> This really isn't complicated to figure out. The nerf to Lead Attacks affects all Thief classes. Thief mains are frustrated by this because of a couple of reasons:

>

> 1) Why are they applying a nerf to a trait that affects most Thief builds when it was Deadeye being overbearing? Most Deadeye builds don't even use Trickery.

> 2) This nerf affects some builds more than others. Core S/D won't be hurt by this as much because they have a little better sticking power.

> 3) Combine this with the obvious buff to Swindler's Equilibrium, and players notice they are making changes that lean players more toward Core S/D more so than they already were despite that it was already the Meta Thief pick.

> 4) D/P Daredevils, on the other hand, are most effected by this change despite not being part of any big problem. Up to a 15% damage boost is not a joke, and it phases them out of competitive environments further than they already were.

> 5) Meanwhile (and most frustrating to me personally), the more cancerous aspects of Deadeye that make them so frustrating to fight get untouched. (Stealth after dodging, shorter Revealed duration in sPvP, etc)

>

> I'm not frustrated by nerfs. I'm frustrated by nerfs _that don't make sense._ They never pointed out why they are nerfing Lead Attacks. The only pointed out that they were doing it. I would have taken a Dagger Storm nerf because of how hard it got power-creeped. The change to Consume Plasma made sense to me. I could go on, but the point I'm making is that this nerf was out completely out of left field.

 

^ Best reply here so far.

 

The logic behind the LA nerf wasn't inherently bad, but the unintended consequences of impacting non-deadeye builds absolutely was.

 

And the dodge on stealth trait for Deadeye is absolutely one of the worst buffs ever made to Deadeye. At the time, giving more stealth access to DE made sense, but by putting it on a dodge, they completely overdid it.

 

I appreciate ANet's explanation behind their balance decisions in the patch notes, but they've been making some reckless decisions to accomplish their goals which have caused too many new problems as they fix old ones.

[kash.9213]

> @"Duckota.4769" said:

> Can we talk about the fact they continue to nerf all other specs in lame attempts to nerf deadeye burst because they're still trying to sell an expansion and don't wont to remove stealth on dodge which fixes every problem I currently have with deadeye? Let them keep the burst. Just give me a chance to actually punish them when they fail it for running glass. Speaking pvp/wvw that is. On another note. I don't understand the change to swindler's. Why was it nerfed when core s/d was already quite average in performance on top of being much more difficult to play in comparison to everything except for weaver. Never ran into deadeye's running it so it's not that.

 

I might have made the first post warning against dodge to stealth in the initial update thread and I still don't like the idea of it but I'm not going to lie to myself and say we can just make do with out it. We're a noticeable threat on any scale fight if we're working through a proper kill order for our side and we're going to get immediate attention. Considering the rest of our tool box dodging the damage into stealth mitigation just happens to be at a nearly appropriate balance in WvW and anyone who claims it's overpowerd is out ganking people running back to squad and are salty when when they get pounced on by another glass cannon. If they're running glass and you're not, they're going to be punished if you're at the keyboard. I'm going to sound like an ass and maybe so but learn to left mouse target stuff quickly, it's not much different than first person shooter, and pack some cc, I appreciate having BV and Scorp Wire and don't miss Meld much at all when running into other DE's or comparable badguys.

 

I'd rather have a different answer to being nuked than dodging into stealth but that's what we have at the moment and while that sucks, it's not as insane as people make it sound on these forums considering what everyone else is packing. Let's just hope we get some better alternative with their new approach to boons that they were talking about. Agree with your point on Swindlers, I have same question about that reasoning.

[SehferViega.8725]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

 

> It doesn't make sense because you're not looking from ArenaNet's perspective. If you piece together all the recent changes, it is fairly obvious that they are nerfing the burst capability of other build making burst builds exclusive to Deadeye. Once you understand their perspective, it makes sense.

>

 

Come on! Arenanet have no perspectives and of course is unable to balance classes and specializations: that's the true!! They have some ideas, but they are unable to put them in a balanced game context.

 

They reason about numbers, they didn't test builds and changes, they are not players.

**The problem is that they don't confront with players.**

 

If they were confronted with players, DE dodge-stealth meccanic (like now it is) would never have been added to the game, just to give an example.

Same for Malicious backstab.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"SehferViega.8725" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

>

> > It doesn't make sense because you're not looking from ArenaNet's perspective. If you piece together all the recent changes, it is fairly obvious that they are nerfing the burst capability of other build making burst builds exclusive to Deadeye. Once you understand their perspective, it makes sense.

> >

>

> Come on! Arenanet have no perspectives and of course is unable to balance classes and specializations: that's the true!! They have some ideas, but they are unable to put them in a balanced game context.

>

> They reason about numbers, they didn't test builds and changes, they are not players.

> **The problem is that they don't confront with players.**

>

> If they were confronted with players, DE dodge-stealth meccanic (like now it is) would never have been added to the game, just to give an example.

> Same for Malicious backstab.

 

Oh believe me, players have confronted them in the past and players were largely ignored. They will do what they want and players have spoken with their wallet or players have simply left the game.

 

Keep in mind that the changes they are making now has long been decided before they implement it. They will change thing for no apparent reason.

 

For instance the Rune changes, why? No apparent reason. They just feel like it needs to change. The Deadeye 2.0 missed the marked completely without implementing the changes that the player base have suggested. It is what it is because they feel like that's where Deadeye is suppose to be. Then they added the Malicious Attack, why? Again, no apparent reason other than they simply feel like it. Replacing Steal with DE mark, why? Again, they feel like it. Stealth on Dodge? Feels like it. Stealth on using Stolen item? Feels like it. This pattern has been going on since launch.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> >

> > I am literally laughing my butt off.

> > Again you pulled out part of what i said and you put it to me as if i said it wrong. Well yes it would be true if i'd say it xD

> > Okay

> >

> > 1st yes they said they want to tone down the initial burst of dmg. My question since we are using this as an example would be. ''Why do we want to tone down the initial burst of dmg? Was it too much? Was it good change considering other classes initial burst of dmg?'' etc...

> >

>

> They've been toning down initial burst as far as I can remember and they've said time and time again that it is not a healthy game play. The power creep that they recently did was a mistake and everybody knows that, if they will be honest with themselves. Yes, honestly, the initial burst needed to be toned down. No other specialization should be able to burst other than the Deadeye.

>

> > 2nd I didnt say thief is ''unable to burst'' I said Thief will be ''Unable to burst **so much**'' = The burst will be smaller/Not as big as before/Not as efficient

> >

>

> It is fairly obvious that they are removing the burst capability away from Core and DD. So far, all updates gave all bursting capability to DE (e.g. Malicious Attacks). If you still do not see this, there will be no amount of explanation that will satisfy you.

>

> > 3rd Yes you are right thief can still burst but it is not as much as it was before.

> >

>

> As it should be. DE is the burst specialization now.

>

> > 4th Thief is a burst class because the damage output it deals comes in a burst. As far as the ideologies of Thief not being only dps class i am unwilling to discuss that in this thread. I made it so Anet can debate with us not to explain to you the very basics of the class we talk about here. Play it in whatever manner you want. I and dont care.

> >

>

> Yeah obviously ArenaNet disagree with your narrow definition too. Thief was never a burst class, it was always been a hybrid. Daredevil specializes in evasions and Deadeye specializes in burst damage. If you want burst, use Deadeye. This is the aim of ArenaNet all along.

>

> > 5th Yes they said they will monitor it and then change it. They did it now. So my question would be : ''What were the results saying lets say in comparison to other classes.'' etc...

> >

>

> They don't compare Thief's changes to other classes. They have never done that nor they ever will. The data they've gathered has always been "Internal Use Only" and they never feel that they owe it to the players to give an explanation. Every changes they make always to achieve an unknown goal. Players believe it's balance, but ArenaNet's changes shows contrary to that.

>

> For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

>

> > 6th Again i didn't say i am unable to burst. And you can just as well check other threads in the Thief forum. Ppl are complaining about the changes and yes it is harming Thief because the Lead attacks you would gain lets say while sb 5-ing to a point were helpful you did spend the ini didnt you so where is the price for it? If they want us not to gain lead attacks out of combat we also shouldnt be spending ini out of combat since ini is the source of our burst and dmg and if we are not fighting it shouldnt be spent no matter if we use our attacks if we wont get the benefits it is supposed to grant

> >

>

> Lead Attacks, per its definition, is to lead an attack, meaning you have to be in combat. If ArenaNet choose to be faithful to the name of the trait, then that's it for that.

>

> > I hope I answered all your concerns now please leave this thread for ppl who it was meant for = Anet devs who would be willing to disscuss and debate on the recent changes to Thief class

> >

>

> Discuss and debate? Don't hold your breath.

 

I got a question then.

 

If daredevil isn't a burst spec anymore, what role does it have? is it in the future to be mostly about the mobility and ccs?

 

 

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > >

> > > I am literally laughing my butt off.

> > > Again you pulled out part of what i said and you put it to me as if i said it wrong. Well yes it would be true if i'd say it xD

> > > Okay

> > >

> > > 1st yes they said they want to tone down the initial burst of dmg. My question since we are using this as an example would be. ''Why do we want to tone down the initial burst of dmg? Was it too much? Was it good change considering other classes initial burst of dmg?'' etc...

> > >

> >

> > They've been toning down initial burst as far as I can remember and they've said time and time again that it is not a healthy game play. The power creep that they recently did was a mistake and everybody knows that, if they will be honest with themselves. Yes, honestly, the initial burst needed to be toned down. No other specialization should be able to burst other than the Deadeye.

> >

> > > 2nd I didnt say thief is ''unable to burst'' I said Thief will be ''Unable to burst **so much**'' = The burst will be smaller/Not as big as before/Not as efficient

> > >

> >

> > It is fairly obvious that they are removing the burst capability away from Core and DD. So far, all updates gave all bursting capability to DE (e.g. Malicious Attacks). If you still do not see this, there will be no amount of explanation that will satisfy you.

> >

> > > 3rd Yes you are right thief can still burst but it is not as much as it was before.

> > >

> >

> > As it should be. DE is the burst specialization now.

> >

> > > 4th Thief is a burst class because the damage output it deals comes in a burst. As far as the ideologies of Thief not being only dps class i am unwilling to discuss that in this thread. I made it so Anet can debate with us not to explain to you the very basics of the class we talk about here. Play it in whatever manner you want. I and dont care.

> > >

> >

> > Yeah obviously ArenaNet disagree with your narrow definition too. Thief was never a burst class, it was always been a hybrid. Daredevil specializes in evasions and Deadeye specializes in burst damage. If you want burst, use Deadeye. This is the aim of ArenaNet all along.

> >

> > > 5th Yes they said they will monitor it and then change it. They did it now. So my question would be : ''What were the results saying lets say in comparison to other classes.'' etc...

> > >

> >

> > They don't compare Thief's changes to other classes. They have never done that nor they ever will. The data they've gathered has always been "Internal Use Only" and they never feel that they owe it to the players to give an explanation. Every changes they make always to achieve an unknown goal. Players believe it's balance, but ArenaNet's changes shows contrary to that.

> >

> > For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

> >

> > > 6th Again i didn't say i am unable to burst. And you can just as well check other threads in the Thief forum. Ppl are complaining about the changes and yes it is harming Thief because the Lead attacks you would gain lets say while sb 5-ing to a point were helpful you did spend the ini didnt you so where is the price for it? If they want us not to gain lead attacks out of combat we also shouldnt be spending ini out of combat since ini is the source of our burst and dmg and if we are not fighting it shouldnt be spent no matter if we use our attacks if we wont get the benefits it is supposed to grant

> > >

> >

> > Lead Attacks, per its definition, is to lead an attack, meaning you have to be in combat. If ArenaNet choose to be faithful to the name of the trait, then that's it for that.

> >

> > > I hope I answered all your concerns now please leave this thread for ppl who it was meant for = Anet devs who would be willing to disscuss and debate on the recent changes to Thief class

> > >

> >

> > Discuss and debate? Don't hold your breath.

>

> I got a question then.

>

> If daredevil isn't a burst spec anymore, what role does it have? is it in the future to be mostly about the mobility and ccs?

>

>

>

 

It would make the most sense if daredevil was a bruiser spec and deadeye was an assassin spec. At the moment I play deadeye as a bruiser tho so what do I know xD

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

>

> I got a question then.

>

> If daredevil isn't a burst spec anymore, what role does it have? is it in the future to be mostly about the mobility and ccs?

>

 

Decap and decoy. Sad but true. So far there has been no evidence to believe that ArenaNet is improving the role of the Thief or giving them a different role.

 

If you want to decap, use Daredevil.

If you want to +1, use Deadeye.

The changes to Lead Attacks prevents you from doing both.

 

That is the current state of the Thief...and yes, it's BS and ArenaNet simply don't care if we think it that way.

[Duckota.4769]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> I'd rather have a different answer to being nuked than dodging into stealth but that's what we have at the moment and while that sucks, it's not as insane as people make it sound on these forums considering what everyone else is packing. Let's just hope we get some better alternative with their new approach to boons that they were talking about. Agree with your point on Swindlers, I have same question about that reasoning.

 

I was about to agree and then you said that gaining a boon as powerful as stealth on dodge was not insane lol. I think I get what you're saying though. You'd gladly accept an alternative that is more fun to play against that still allows you to have a reasonable amount of survivability. The thing here is that it hasn't been a learn to play issue. You can say it has, but it hasn't been. When I'm 100% - 0%ed by 1 key press that was visible to me and if I do manage to live it with 5% (lol) than I have until they press a 2nd key to do the same kind of dmg to them. Keep in mind that in order to do that kind of dmg to them I wouldnt have lived the first attack because Id have been glass. I play core s/d so I'm not the most durable, and while I do get your point.... In reality it hasnt been a learn to play issue for many months when a player with 0 skill could press 1 button and send you back to spawn regardless of your skill level. With that said this patch is bringing out even more whats wrong with stealth on dodge. As more people are finding their precious backstab isnt as cheesy as it once was theyre leaning more on acro rifle builds. Explain to me how Im supposed to punish from that range before someone can dodge if I'm playing a class without as much mobility/ranged burst. Considering you can shadowstep around as well.

 

[kash.9213]

> @"Duckota.4769" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > I'd rather have a different answer to being nuked than dodging into stealth but that's what we have at the moment and while that sucks, it's not as insane as people make it sound on these forums considering what everyone else is packing. Let's just hope we get some better alternative with their new approach to boons that they were talking about. Agree with your point on Swindlers, I have same question about that reasoning.

>

> I was about to agree and then you said that gaining a boon as powerful as stealth on dodge was not insane lol. I think I get what you're saying though. You'd gladly accept an alternative that is more fun to play against that still allows you to have a reasonable amount of survivability. The thing here is that it hasn't been a learn to play issue. You can say it has, but it hasn't been. When I'm 100% - 0%ed by 1 key press that was visible to me and if I do manage to live it with 5% (lol) than I have until they press a 2nd key to do the same kind of dmg to them. Keep in mind that in order to do that kind of dmg to them I wouldnt have lived the first attack because Id have been glass. I play core s/d so I'm not the most durable, and while I do get your point.... In reality it hasnt been a learn to play issue for many months when a player with 0 skill could press 1 button and send you back to spawn regardless of your skill level. With that said this patch is bringing out even more whats wrong with stealth on dodge. As more people are finding their precious backstab isnt as cheesy as it once was theyre leaning more on acro rifle builds. Explain to me how Im supposed to punish from that range before someone can dodge if I'm playing a class without as much mobility/ranged burst. Considering you can shadowstep around as well.

>

 

There's more than "0 skill" if they're pulling that off on you, especially in open areas with friends around and it will involve way more than just stealth dodge then backstab. If they're one shotting you with an Acro DE build, I don't know what to tell you.

[omgdracula.6345]

The lead attack change would not be that big of an issue if they got rid of all of it for all classes. But the fact is there are still classes that can stack abilities outside of combat which is stupid.

 

Easiest change would have been to just make it do something different if you had a rifle equipped.

[AikijinX.6258]

Thief has gotten power creep nerf's since launch, where Heartseeker pretty much could 1 shot, among other skills back then. The one trait alone that could nearly 1 shot got nerfed to oblivion years ago, which was "Mug" . Our game mechanics, Weapon Damage, and Traits have had constant power tone downs for some time now.

 

Not saying I agree with most changes especially recent ones. But Lead Attacks was something that needed to be looked at. Out of combat to be able to have a constant damage multiplier ready just by shortbow 5'ing around map was pretty insane. Like i said, I don't agree with most recent changes, especially the way they completely took away a perfectly good stun like "Unforgiving" as a trait, I must say I believe they were correct with this decision for LA. (Unpopular decision I know). --Just feedback from an old Thief

 

EDIT: I also don't like the Death's Judgement revert. Although I do see and acknowledge that other classes were fared at a disadvantage when dealing with DE's, but I guess I am just frustrated with the change because I am not a Perma Stealth DE. I actively engage, I don't sit in stealth, and i definitely don't use assassin signet.

[Duckota.4769]

 

> @"kash.9213"

>

> There's more than "0 skill" if they're pulling that off on you, especially in open areas with friends around and it will involve way more than just stealth dodge then backstab. If they're one shotting you with an Acro DE build, I don't know what to tell you.

 

This is either a reading comprehension issue or a I don't play deadeye issue on your end. I never once said acro rifle one shots, and please don't pretend like marking someone and pressing 2 more utilities takes it beyond 0 skill when backstabs can crit for 18k.