"Condi builds are easier to play" and the widely accepted truth of how and why.

[Vicariuz.1605]

> @"wanya.1697" said:

> in my opinion the problem is that conditions do dmg and are not only soft cc´s or hexes like in gw1

 

i think you may need to read up on conditions from gw1, burning, poison, and disease were extremely heavy pressure when coupled with deep wound.

compared to gw2 conditions, gw1 were far more substantial even individually.

[Justine.6351]

> @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > @"wanya.1697" said:

> > in my opinion the problem is that conditions do dmg and are not only soft cc´s or hexes like in gw1

>

> i think you may need to read up on conditions from gw1, burning, poison, and disease were extremely heavy pressure when coupled with deep wound.

> compared to gw2 conditions, gw1 were far more substantial even individually.

 

Degen from conditions in gw1 was capped at -10 pips or 20hp/sec. If you had -10 degen you were probably in a really bad spot. With a base hp of 480 it could tic at maximum ~ 4%/sec. At an average hp of 20k in spvp that would be ~800 condi tic / second for 4%. I presume condi players are doing better than 800 damage per second. Certainly were in the past anyhow.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> > @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > > @"wanya.1697" said:

> > > in my opinion the problem is that conditions do dmg and are not only soft cc´s or hexes like in gw1

> >

> > i think you may need to read up on conditions from gw1, burning, poison, and disease were extremely heavy pressure when coupled with deep wound.

> > compared to gw2 conditions, gw1 were far more substantial even individually.

>

> Degen from conditions in gw1 was capped at -10 pips or 20hp/sec. If you had -10 degen you were probably in a really bad spot. With a base hp of 480 it could tic at maximum ~ 4%/sec. At an average hp of 20k in spvp that would be ~800 condi tic / second for 4%. I presume condi players are doing better than 800 damage per second. Certainly were in the past anyhow.

 

Just Mirage and Scourge. No other condi build can hope to compete with this level of condition cleanse.

[Milan.9035]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> Condi is easy...

> Sorry couldnt help myself...

>

> More serious note, I only say Condi is easy for WvW where toughness vitality healing and condi stats are a thing, for pvp its sort of balanced now... Wasn't balanced around the time of condi change due to guards dropping people with 20k or more a tick on burns but thats been a while back now

> There was also scourge at release, that was intense. So was the era of port spamming poison thieves

 

so 2 classes that have viable condi builds is viable.... and those 2 classes work both with condi and power its really not the type of damage thats making them good

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Milan.9035" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > Condi is easy...

> > Sorry couldnt help myself...

> >

> > More serious note, I only say Condi is easy for WvW where toughness vitality healing and condi stats are a thing, for pvp its sort of balanced now... Wasn't balanced around the time of condi change due to guards dropping people with 20k or more a tick on burns but thats been a while back now

> > There was also scourge at release, that was intense. So was the era of port spamming poison thieves

>

> so 2 classes that have viable condi builds is viable.... and those 2 classes work both with condi and power its really not the type of damage thats making them good

 

Wasnt the conditions themselves, it was how they were applied.

 

 

[Milan.9035]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Milan.9035" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > Condi is easy...

> > > Sorry couldnt help myself...

> > >

> > > More serious note, I only say Condi is easy for WvW where toughness vitality healing and condi stats are a thing, for pvp its sort of balanced now... Wasn't balanced around the time of condi change due to guards dropping people with 20k or more a tick on burns but thats been a while back now

> > > There was also scourge at release, that was intense. So was the era of port spamming poison thieves

> >

> > so 2 classes that have viable condi builds is viable.... and those 2 classes work both with condi and power its really not the type of damage thats making them good

>

> Wasnt the conditions themselves, it was how they were applied.

>

>

 

its same as power

[Bossun.2046]

I got not problem fighting a Condi thief, warrior, engi, ranger, ele, guardian, necro, rev... Some of those fights can be pretty even, as people who usually play any of those in ranked has some skill.

 

The only Condi spec that I cant fight is Condi axe mirage, even when running a holo prot cleanse build. Something needs to be done to it, not to the point where it can't kill people at all, just to the point on where it has some counterplay.

[Erzian.5218]

> Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

>

> Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.

> Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.

>

> Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

>

> Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

>

For power builds 3/4s cast time is considered a “large windup”, and a little under 1s (which in reality is often below 3/4 s because of quickness) is deemed “even grandma can dodge” whereas a 3/4 cast on condition is described as “low cast time”.

 

Condition builds are easier because of distorted perception.

 

[Milan.9035]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Milan.9035" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"Milan.9035" said:

> > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > Condi is easy...

> > > > > Sorry couldnt help myself...

> > > > >

> > > > > More serious note, I only say Condi is easy for WvW where toughness vitality healing and condi stats are a thing, for pvp its sort of balanced now... Wasn't balanced around the time of condi change due to guards dropping people with 20k or more a tick on burns but thats been a while back now

> > > > > There was also scourge at release, that was intense. So was the era of port spamming poison thieves

> > > >

> > > > so 2 classes that have viable condi builds is viable.... and those 2 classes work both with condi and power its really not the type of damage thats making them good

> > >

> > > Wasnt the conditions themselves, it was how they were applied.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > its same as power

>

> What to you and the guys who thumbs upped you...

>

> Scourge circles at release were all huge..

> Thief spamming sword 2 did no damage, it was the combination of poison being applied with immobilizes, what does that have to do with power?

>

> As pauline Hanson would say... "please explain"

>

> Edit: oh you were being dumb on purpose, nicely done.

 

Scourge circles are also used same way condi uses them. Look in wvw power scourge is real.

 

Problem is the build not the type of damage.

[XECOR.2814]

I play scourge. I get insta down against every meta power class. Im not bad enough to die in 2secs but i do. After 1st cc, i know i will get perma cc so i just leave pc and go to have a drink and wait for respawn.

[Vallun.2071]

@"Grimjack.8130" The advantage that power has over conditions is that its damage is instant. The advantage conditions have over power is that they do more damage if not cleansed. Also to avoid conditions you need to look at your condition bar while also looking at enemy animations. It may be too much information for lower skilled players to deal with. While playing against a power build it plays much like a fighting game (so long as its not instant cast skills or stealth one shots) and playing against condition builds is like playing a fighting game combined with a survival horror game. This combined with the lower requirement of stat allocation to deal damage on condis makes it much more difficult to deal with than a power build.

 

This was all fine because conditions should take a while to ramp up, however this is not the case. Conditions stack up way too quickly on some builds and can even deal as much burst damage as power builds. This is also kind of necessary to keep up with the power creep of power builds, so perhaps the application of conditions should be made much more clear. For example when you have blind on you your screen becomes grayed out to tell you that you are blinded, and you dont even need to look at the buff bar. Confusion I believe also shows up as purple on your screen. Adding more of these effects would be clutter, so maybe this is the best solution to the dilemma of conditions:

 

Add an option in settings to make the buff bar more visible, either through making conditions flare up on the bar and get bigger whenever an extra stack gets applied or making them customizable on the screen so that they are more seamlessly visible to someone who also must look at the enemy's animations

[Daishi.6027]

I don't disagree with the main point of the OP. I do think there is a little to much salt that flies around when yeah, you can just dodge it. However there are some double standards towards condi builds that allows them to thrive and are easier in the sense of giving more leeway.

 

Take Mirage for example: 4/4 Shatters apply condi pressure when in mandatory specializations. This was even more prominent with the old version of what cry of pain is now. Instead now there has been increased synergy with getting confusion stacks for applying blinds, meaning it can apply stacks with that nice defensive buffer shatters needed in dueling. On top of that the weapons apply stacks quite reliably even on chain, illusions can apply stacks, can keep stacks up with interupts, AND Phantasms (some) not only apply condis, but also continue to hit pretty hard with the amulets chosen for PvP.

 

Power by comparison, has 2/4 shatters that do decent damage, and the second one isn't even that good. Phants hit for a good 5k-ish. Most other mesmer weapon skills alone do mediocre at best damage, and unbuffed poke almost on par with auto attacks compared to the with the rest of the roster, relying on might and vulnerability to make up the difference. The exception to this being maybe blurred frenzy, and that is more often used as a dodge. It's real defining feature over Condi spec is flat boon strip on shatters, however as you mentioned:

 

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

>Condition builds have a tendency to be able to shut down boons better than power ones, and boons are very relevant nowadays.

 

Sure there are instant combos that can 100-0 someone not paying attention, but that uses majoirty of the arsenal to achieve that, and any major damage is avoided in one dodge, then the entire thing goes on cooldown. Either way it being one major thing to look out for, anticipate, and avoid; is FAR easier for the average player to avoid than the multitude of options to apply stacks that condi has.

 

This isn't just a mesmer issue, it's relevant to any class that has a usable power and condi spec. If you consider this with every other advantage you pointed out already, you can see why people craft this idea of it being "easier to play".

 

Again I don't think it's "as easy" as people make it out to be, but I do think there is a disparity that is often not addressed in the balance.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Milan.9035" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Milan.9035" said:

> > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > @"Milan.9035" said:

> > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > Condi is easy...

> > > > > > Sorry couldnt help myself...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > More serious note, I only say Condi is easy for WvW where toughness vitality healing and condi stats are a thing, for pvp its sort of balanced now... Wasn't balanced around the time of condi change due to guards dropping people with 20k or more a tick on burns but thats been a while back now

> > > > > > There was also scourge at release, that was intense. So was the era of port spamming poison thieves

> > > > >

> > > > > so 2 classes that have viable condi builds is viable.... and those 2 classes work both with condi and power its really not the type of damage thats making them good

> > > >

> > > > Wasnt the conditions themselves, it was how they were applied.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > its same as power

> >

> > What to you and the guys who thumbs upped you...

> >

> > Scourge circles at release were all huge..

> > Thief spamming sword 2 did no damage, it was the combination of poison being applied with immobilizes, what does that have to do with power?

> >

> > As pauline Hanson would say... "please explain"

> >

> > Edit: oh you were being dumb on purpose, nicely done.

>

> Scourge circles are also used same way condi uses them. Look in wvw power scourge is real.

>

> Problem is the build not the type of damage.

 

Which is what I originally said?

Why are you telling me the same thing I already said?

 

Some low quality trolling right there, you already got me the first time no need to drag it out

 

[rawn.7865]

Bring back condi thief.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"rawn.7865" said:

> Bring back condi thief.

 

_*Vommits*_

[Abazigal.3679]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Sure there are instant combos that can 100-0 someone not paying attention, but that uses majoirty of the arsenal to achieve that, and any major damage is avoided in one dodge, then the entire thing goes on cooldown. Either way it being one major thing to look out for, anticipate, and avoid; is FAR easier for the average player to avoid than the multitude of options to apply stacks that condi has.

>

> This isn't just a mesmer issue, it's relevant to any class that has a usable power and condi spec. If you consider this with every other advantage you pointed out already, you can see why people craft this idea of it being "easier to play".

>

> Again I don't think it's "as easy" as people make it out to be, but I do think there is a disparity that is often not addressed in the balance.

 

Exactly this. The problem is in several ways :

- Most of " pure " damage is usually located on 1 target, whereas most of the condi damage is AoE

- Most of " pure " damage is telegraphed and easy to see( little exception on DE maybe), whereas most of the condi damage is hard to anticipate . Also, you at least understand what killed you , which is not always the case when you die to a mesmer because you have no idea how those 5 condis reached you.

- There aren't enough counters to condi spamming, while you usually can random dodge, rely on passive, or have 1-2 " panic " skills that will prevent physical damage to kill you

 

This doesn't necessarly mean condition is easy to play, but when compared to other builds, it's far much easier in terms of risk/reward. What's pretty annoying also when facing condi setups ( i.e condi thief 2 scourges mesmer firebrand ) is that it's too complicated to win with a poor setup, while it takes litterally no effort for opponents to win.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > Sure there are instant combos that can 100-0 someone not paying attention, but that uses majoirty of the arsenal to achieve that, and any major damage is avoided in one dodge, then the entire thing goes on cooldown. Either way it being one major thing to look out for, anticipate, and avoid; is FAR easier for the average player to avoid than the multitude of options to apply stacks that condi has.

> >

> > This isn't just a mesmer issue, it's relevant to any class that has a usable power and condi spec. If you consider this with every other advantage you pointed out already, you can see why people craft this idea of it being "easier to play".

> >

> > Again I don't think it's "as easy" as people make it out to be, but I do think there is a disparity that is often not addressed in the balance.

>

> Exactly this. The problem is in several ways :

> - Most of " pure " damage is usually located on 1 target, whereas most of the condi damage is AoE

> - Most of " pure " damage is telegraphed and easy to see( little exception on DE maybe), whereas most of the condi damage is hard to anticipate .

> - There aren't enough counters to condi spamming, while you usually can random dodge, rely on passive, or have 1-2 " panic " skills that will prevent physical damage to kill you

 

Every time these argument comes up someone always mentions these but they always were, and still are, a straight lies.

The only modicum of truth in your post is:

>you have no idea how those 5 condis

And that's because the combat log will show you what condition did the damage but no which skill applied the condition which i feel needs to be added so people will learn what is killing them faster.

 

When people say "conditions are overtuned" in reality they mean "this particular couple of builds on these classes are overtuned". X damage type isn't overtuned because Y build killed you its because Y build is overtuned. For some reason people can make this distinction with power damage but never conditions.

 

 

[Vicariuz.1605]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> > @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > > @"wanya.1697" said:

> > > in my opinion the problem is that conditions do dmg and are not only soft cc´s or hexes like in gw1

> >

> > i think you may need to read up on conditions from gw1, burning, poison, and disease were extremely heavy pressure when coupled with deep wound.

> > compared to gw2 conditions, gw1 were far more substantial even individually.

>

> Degen from conditions in gw1 was capped at -10 pips or 20hp/sec. If you had -10 degen you were probably in a really bad spot. With a base hp of 480 it could tic at maximum ~ 4%/sec. At an average hp of 20k in spvp that would be ~800 condi tic / second for 4%. I presume condi players are doing better than 800 damage per second. Certainly were in the past anyhow.

 

lets not forget the other aspects of the conditions besides just the damage so we dont bias our information.

[Justine.6351]

> @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > > > @"wanya.1697" said:

> > > > in my opinion the problem is that conditions do dmg and are not only soft cc´s or hexes like in gw1

> > >

> > > i think you may need to read up on conditions from gw1, burning, poison, and disease were extremely heavy pressure when coupled with deep wound.

> > > compared to gw2 conditions, gw1 were far more substantial even individually.

> >

> > Degen from conditions in gw1 was capped at -10 pips or 20hp/sec. If you had -10 degen you were probably in a really bad spot. With a base hp of 480 it could tic at maximum ~ 4%/sec. At an average hp of 20k in spvp that would be ~800 condi tic / second for 4%. I presume condi players are doing better than 800 damage per second. Certainly were in the past anyhow.

>

> lets not forget the other aspects of the conditions besides just the damage so we dont bias our information.

 

Which are also present on GW2 conditions.

[Erzian.5218]

You cannot compare gw1 and gw2 conditions as the games are entirely different. Damaging Conditions in gw1 were a pressure tool used to apply pressure the the whole opposing team in order to force the necessity of party heals (which could then be shut down in order to score kills on the resulting low hp targets). It is important to realize, that it was highly unlikely to gain use out of AoE or cleave in gw1 against better teams (at least in gvg) which made damage over time (conditions and some hexes) the only option to simultaneously pressure multiple targets with 1 player. This niche does not exist for conditions in gw2 because of two reasons:

1. There is no need to pressure different targets in gw2 as there is no equivalent to the combination of protection and healing monk (+ritualist) which allows you to simply chose a target and stay on it until it is dead.

2. The game mode limits the space that players have (I am not saying that you have to stay on node all the time but you can also not entirely avoid going on node) and power builds have plenty of cleave and aoe damage.

[BadMed.3846]

Condition mirage makes me puke. It's a terrible state of game. Sure I can kill it but it sickening to see how easy it is to troll playing it.

[SteepledHat.1345]

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> Condition mirage makes me puke. It's a terrible state of game. Sure I can kill it but it sickening to see how easy it is to troll playing it.

 

What does this even mean? "Troll playing it" Like, I feel like your PvP rank should be shown with every comment. You need your badge next to your name on the forums.

[BadMed.3846]

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > Condition mirage makes me puke. It's a terrible state of game. Sure I can kill it but it sickening to see how easy it is to troll playing it.

>

> What does this even mean? "Troll playing it" Like, I feel like your PvP rank should be shown with every comment. You need your badge next to your name on the forums.

 

Oh. I don't care what a posters rank is. You should go elsewhere if you do. This forum is for all players equally. Keep your elitism out of it.

[Apolo.5942]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> So its your fault when you get hit by a Mirage's Axe 3, but you never get hit by a warrior's GS F1, and its your fault that you never see roamers playing condi, so the first time you do you die with a build on you that runs a pathetic amount of answers to conditions.

> Maybe we'll get some decent conversations going.

> Maybe we'll get those same people who refuse to explain themselves saying the same 3 words. "**__Condi is easy.__**"

 

Mirage Axe 3 is a 600 range Teleport that benefits from BOTH condi AND power, that on top of that can be cast on demand on a 10 second cooldown.

Sword F1 on the other hand has a melee range of 150 that benefits ONLY from power, has an 8 second cooldown and requires adrenaline build up.

 

Perhaps this comparison will show you conditions are indeed easier...

 

Have not played them in a while, but i remember playing about 5 months ago, condi Mirage and condi scourge. They where both brain dead button mashing builds. It got to a point with Scourge that i would go straight for SBs because of how fast and easy i could drop them.

 

Conditions, need a rework, they where never intended to be this way, burning alone was capped at about 900sh, now days you can ramp it over 3k easy, they need to be normalized:

1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.

2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.

3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Apolo.5942" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > So its your fault when you get hit by a Mirage's Axe 3, but you never get hit by a warrior's GS F1, and its your fault that you never see roamers playing condi, so the first time you do you die with a build on you that runs a pathetic amount of answers to conditions.

> > Maybe we'll get some decent conversations going.

> > Maybe we'll get those same people who refuse to explain themselves saying the same 3 words. "**__Condi is easy.__**"

>

> Mirage Axe 3 is a 600 range Teleport that benefits from BOTH condi AND power, that on top of that can be cast on demand on a 10 second cooldown.

> Sword F1 on the other hand has a melee range of 150 that benefits ONLY from power, has an 8 second cooldown and requires adrenaline build up.

>

> Perhaps this comparison will show you conditions are indeed easier...

>

> Have not played them in a while, but i remember playing about 5 months ago, condi Mirage and condi scourge. They where both brain dead button mashing builds. It got to a point with Scourge that i would go straight for SBs because of how fast and easy i could drop them.

>

> Conditions, need a rework, they where never intended to be this way, burning alone was capped at about 900sh, now days you can ramp it over 3k easy, they need to be normalized:

> 1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.

> 2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.

> 3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

 

Condition is so braid dead, so much easier that the only two classes running it in any capacity are just as frequently running power variants and literally no one else is touching it in any of their meta builds not even remotely.