Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > The fact that there’s still a large chunk of the community that thinks thief is in a strong position leads me to think it will never get fixed lol just roll a different class or deal with an underperforming class unless u like DE playstyle > > The problem is twofold, in that the things people dislike about thief are the core things it's thematically built around; mobility, high damage, evades and stealth. The second issue is that thief has nothing else besides these concepts when it comes to build strengths. So you can't make everyone happy and have a functioning thief in PvP at the same time (especially when DE emphasises high damage and stealth, the most problematic combo of the core traits), because some people just hate it by default. I agree. People want thiefs damage to be mediocre due to the annoying methods it’s uses to do its damage yet none of these care about any compensation like a buff in hp/sustain etc to make it stand a chance tie to toe with other classes, they’d be ok with the class just sucking cuz they don’t like it in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juno.1840 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > The fact that there’s still a large chunk of the community that thinks thief is in a strong position leads me to think it will never get fixed lol just roll a different class or deal with an underperforming class unless u like DE playstyle > > > > The problem is twofold, in that the things people dislike about thief are the core things it's thematically built around; mobility, high damage, evades and stealth. The second issue is that thief has nothing else besides these concepts when it comes to build strengths. So you can't make everyone happy and have a functioning thief in PvP at the same time (especially when DE emphasises high damage and stealth, the most problematic combo of the core traits), because some people just hate it by default. > > I agree. People want thiefs damage to be mediocre due to the annoying methods it’s uses to do its damage yet none of these care about any compensation like a buff in hp/sustain etc to make it stand a chance tie to toe with other classes, they’d be ok with the class just sucking cuz they don’t like it in general I don't think people are against compensation in trade for eliminating the most hated elements. You don't see those conversations because those would be "part 2". You can't get there without finishing "part 1" which is fixing the hated elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"LaFurion.3167" said: > > I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. > Is this some kind of new metric? GFPM? > > So what would make the thief good? 0.3 GFPM? 0.7 GFPM? Whats the GFPM rating of the other classes? At how low GFPM would a class be considered unbalanced? Do they share the same GFPM or is there some sort of individual threshhold? > > I demand answers! 1 good fight /10 min while roaming seems unrealistically high. In good days I get about 1 fight that isn't just getting overrun by a zerg or killing solo players while doing something else on my secondary screen every 30-45 min, on bad days I can roam 3-4 hours and find literally nothing. Op is clearly lying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syszery.1592 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability. It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"syszery.1592" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability. > > It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day. The build it self is perfectly fine as it is imo, it's just 80% of the rest of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etterwyn.5263 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Another common cry is how they are able to reset fights and how annoying it is to fight a thief resetting and want thiefs mobility nurfed further yet no one mentions any compensation for the loss of mobility and low hp/sustain,the reason thief resets in first place is due to it not being able to sustain fights passed its burst because it can’t take a hit. Plus now soulbeast,mesmers and holo’s can reset as well lol That is why stealth is a garbage mechanic. This started in GW1 with the Assassin (thief's predecessor) and its cheap shadow-stepping. Anet decided to 1-up the cheese in GW2 and allow characters to be completely invisible. Being able to disengage from combat at will throws the whole risk/reward concept out the window. I have no problem losing a fight. I'm used to it =) But I have a real grievance when gaining the upper hand advantage and my opponent just disappears. I'd be fine with damage and sustain buffs to compensate for nerfng stealth to oblivion. It should be a tool for movement, a tool for gaining the upper hand by allowing a first strike from an advantageous position, but not a way out of the very fight you initiated when things don't go your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"Etterwyn.5263" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Another common cry is how they are able to reset fights and how annoying it is to fight a thief resetting and want thiefs mobility nurfed further yet no one mentions any compensation for the loss of mobility and low hp/sustain,the reason thief resets in first place is due to it not being able to sustain fights passed its burst because it can’t take a hit. Plus now soulbeast,mesmers and holo’s can reset as well lol > > That is why stealth is a garbage mechanic. This started in GW1 with the Assassin (thief's predecessor) and its cheap shadow-stepping. Anet decided to 1-up the cheese in GW2 and allow characters to be completely invisible. > > Being able to disengage from combat at will throws the whole risk/reward concept out the window. I have no problem losing a fight. I'm used to it =) But I have a real grievance when gaining the upper hand advantage and my opponent just disappears. > > I'd be fine with damage and sustain buffs to compensate for nerfng stealth to oblivion. It should be a tool for movement, a tool for gaining the upper hand by allowing a first strike from an advantageous position, but not a way out of the very fight you initiated when things don't go your way. You won't like the sustain/dmg buff at all. There was a time where people could actually fight using staff acro/daredevil but that got nerfed too much, this was when people used dust strike/deliberating arc (forgot it's name) correctly and usefully and never even touching vault. Thievs will port away because there is nothing to fight for so they lose nothing, find a thief and then fight over a camp, he won't be able to port reset if he always wants to defend the camp too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"syszery.1592" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability. > > It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day. I never said give them ALL of what I mentioned. I am saying that every option I tried to suggest as a way to balance out Thief by removing Stealth or changing it was shot down. No way in hell would I give Thief all of those things for a change in the Stealth mechanic. You completely misunderstood what I wrote or just read into it what you wanted like a lot of people often do to try to validate their point of view. Stealth is a broken and lazy mechanic for fighting somebody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi.4152 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"Emi.4152" said: > what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what? Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syszery.1592 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability. > > > > It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day. > > I never said give them ALL of what I mentioned. I am saying that every option I tried to suggest as a way to balance out Thief by removing Stealth or changing it was shot down. No way in hell would I give Thief all of those things for a change in the Stealth mechanic. You completely misunderstood what I wrote or just read into it what you wanted like a lot of people often do to try to validate their point of view. Stealth is a broken and lazy mechanic for fighting somebody. Ok, besides that every single change would be a strait buff to S/D core which is already well balanced and actually should be a reference point for other classes here is why I am grateful that you are not responsible for balancing: By removing stealth you would completely destroy Deadeye in every game mode (all your ideas are no compensation for the stealth attacks). The PvE dagger and rifle build focusses on building Malice and then use big damaging stealth attack. And more or less that's also what the PvP build does but on top it utilizes stealth as a defensive tool to position and so on. It's a little better for Daredevil because at least the PvE staff build would stay untouched - but D/P PvP would be heavily nerf'ed and maybe unplayable (since the auto attack on dagger is terrible now). What's left is S/D core which is terrible in PvE and as I already said doing well enough in PvP and WvW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"syszery.1592" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability. > > > > > > It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day. > > > > I never said give them ALL of what I mentioned. I am saying that every option I tried to suggest as a way to balance out Thief by removing Stealth or changing it was shot down. No way in hell would I give Thief all of those things for a change in the Stealth mechanic. You completely misunderstood what I wrote or just read into it what you wanted like a lot of people often do to try to validate their point of view. Stealth is a broken and lazy mechanic for fighting somebody. > > Ok, besides that every single change would be a strait buff to S/D core which is already well balanced and actually should be a reference point for other classes here is why I am grateful that you are not responsible for balancing: > By removing stealth you would completely destroy Deadeye in every game mode (all your ideas are no compensation for the stealth attacks). The PvE dagger and rifle build focusses on building Malice and then use big damaging stealth attack. And more or less that's also what the PvP build does but on top it utilizes stealth as a defensive tool to position and so on. It's a little better for Daredevil because at least the PvE staff build would stay untouched - but D/P PvP would be heavily nerf'ed and maybe unplayable (since the auto attack on dagger is terrible now). What's left is S/D core which is terrible in PvE and as I already said doing well enough in PvP and WvW... Well of course you are. If you play or main Thief you obviously do not want any touches to your beloved class. I am not a Dev, I do not do balancing. They do. And what's to say that from my suggestions they couldn't find a way to balance Thief better. I did not name off specific ways to try to balance the class, just a broad suggestion on some things they could use to do so. It would be up to them to determine just which ones and how much would be needed to find a balance for it. Deadeye could get a buff to it's range, therefore turning it more into a sniper like most people suggest it is. Anything that relies on Stealth for damage could be reworked to include after dodge with a possible increase in dodges. Again, something for the Devs to figure out. I'm just giving out some examples. Things I would be willing to trade off for the removal or reworking of Stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"Emi.4152" said: > > what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what? > > Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So........... Ranger how ever can actually fight and has a far better chance at winning 1v1 compared to thief, it dosnt need to run off the slightest scratch because they can actually fight back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > @"Emi.4152" said: > > > what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what? > > > > Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So........... > > Ranger how ever can actually fight and has a far better chance at winning 1v1 compared to thief, it dosnt need to run off the slightest scratch because they can actually fight back. Only if it is a sustained damage 1v1 does a Ranger win. Burst, Thief will win every time with their 1 shot from Stealth mechanic. Either they win from the lazy Stealth or they win because they keep resetting until they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widmo.3186 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"Emi.4152" said: > > what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what? > > Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So........... Say what? Do you actually know nowadays state of Soulbeasts 1v1s? Its not even comparable to thief state, the only thing thief does better is more escape options and hit & run privilege. In everything else he is just pure imba, amount of healings, evades, damage, pressure, gap closers, even stealth (not mentioning permanent buff stacks). Its tier 1, same as mirage. Just dont start outnumbered fights and your roaming will be fine. Im talking solely about roaming and duels, nothing about zerging because there both thieves and rangers are at least not welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Only some time ago, WvW was plagued by **pulmonary impact spammers and AA dagger doing absurd dmg**...I don't miss them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi.4152 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"Emi.4152" said: > > what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what? > > Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So........... rangers are actually a great 1 v 1 class Oo one of the best. mobility isn't far behind thief. I would argue its a better solo roamer and definitely far better in small groups. Would think mesmer, ranger, and warrior are better roamers. engi is incredible in small groups. If you think im just exaggerating, then please, what in your opinion should thieves actually be able to do in wvw? and are they able to do that now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syszery.1592 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > @"Emi.4152" said: > > > > what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what? > > > > > > Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So........... > > > > Ranger how ever can actually fight and has a far better chance at winning 1v1 compared to thief, it dosnt need to run off the slightest scratch because they can actually fight back. > > Only if it is a sustained damage 1v1 does a Ranger win. Burst, Thief will win every time with their 1 shot from Stealth mechanic. Either they win from the lazy Stealth or they win because they keep resetting until they do. Yes, ranger does not have good burst... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 high risk, high reward, low risk, low reward. That is how it should be. Instead we got: thief (any thief class): no risk, high reward mirage: no risk, high reward soulbeast: no risk, high reward There would be easy things to solve the issue. Like removing stealth&perma evades. Or make losing clones doing damage to the mesmer is question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAN.7314 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I really like playing my thief, but unless you go the one trick pony 1 shot from stealth, you are at a disadvantage versus any class if you try and fight toe to toe. I am not a fan of in combat stealth. It's a really bad game design. There is no counter play. You stealth and go for the 1 shot, and if you fail you re-stealth and wait for cooldowns to reset and try again. I want fights. I avoid most fights on my thief, but just use it because of the great mobility to capture camps. I love the abilities of thief with S/D and shortbow (and the other weapon sets too), but just get straight up destroyed by most competent players on other classes. I actively see high rank players go after me on my thief, but they hesitate versus when I'm on other classes. They nerfed all thief builds because stealth made deadeye overpowered. Stealth was/is the problem, but now thief is so nerfed, asides for stealth, that if you don't use a stealth heavy build you are basically useless. Same story in PvP where thief has been designated to decap duties for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I really don't understand the QQ of thief mains. Well I play necro and QQ a lot as well. But I met a thief main, that never complained about thief, even in thief's current state (not speaking about deadeye). When he lost a fight, he told me, which mistake he made. But he said, that every class is beatable. Even against very good players, he considered all his matchups in favour of thief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 > @"DAN.7314" said: > I really like playing my thief, but unless you go the one trick pony 1 shot from stealth, you are at a disadvantage versus any class if you try and fight toe to toe. I am not a fan of in combat stealth. It's a really bad game design. There is no counter play. You stealth and go for the 1 shot, and if you fail you re-stealth and wait for cooldowns to reset and try again. I want fights. I avoid most fights on my thief, but just use it because of the great mobility to capture camps. > > I love the abilities of thief with S/D and shortbow (and the other weapon sets too), but just get straight up destroyed by most competent players on other classes. I actively see high rank players go after me on my thief, but they hesitate versus when I'm on other classes. They nerfed all thief builds because stealth made deadeye overpowered. Stealth was/is the problem, but now thief is so nerfed, asides for stealth, that if you don't use a stealth heavy build you are basically useless. > > Same story in PvP where thief has been designated to decap duties for a long time. So true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > I really don't understand the QQ of thief mains. Well I play necro and QQ a lot as well. > But I met a thief main, that never complained about thief, even in thief's current state (not speaking about deadeye). When he lost a fight, he told me, which mistake he made. > But he said, that every class is beatable. Even against very good players, he considered all his matchups in favour of thief Haha yeah sounds legit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi.4152 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > I really don't understand the QQ of thief mains. Well I play necro and QQ a lot as well. > But I met a thief main, that never complained about thief, even in thief's current state (not speaking about deadeye). When he lost a fight, he told me, which mistake he made. > But he said, that every class is beatable. Even against very good players, he considered all his matchups in favour of thief although true to an extent but... pointless. by that logic, wheres the limit then? as a thief you'd have to go full on esports to beat any random bronze player you come across? at the moment it's already getting close to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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