Overview -> Counters of each class

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > Warrior counters Mirage?

> > >

> > > Hard Warrior nerfs next Balance Patch then.

> >

> >

> > No, it‘s the other way round,

> > Class played —> counters to this class

> > But if it‘s wrong that Mirage can be seen as a counter to warrior, let me know

> >

> > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said:

> > > The thing with this that you probably are going off of standard "meta" copy paste builds. In reality the only class I have a issue with as a reaper is the uncontrollable conditions of mirage and chrono.

> >

> > Yes, you are correct

> > That‘s interesting, yeah maybe a list doesn‘t make sense. As I have already said individual skill is what matters most. Still fun though :D

>

> OHHHHH! Sorry then.

 

Yea I actually thought this was a bait thread till he mentioned its just a fun thing...

 

 

[Avez.4621]

I never post but this thread looks promising :)

 

What builds are we talking about here, because mender/ sage sword weaver doesn't get countered at all 1v1. Maybe gets in a even match but never a counter.

And mender/ sage sword weaver counters scourges hard ...

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Avez.4621" said:

> What builds are we talking about here, because mender/ sage sword weaver doesn't get countered at all 1v1. Maybe gets in a even match but never a counter.

> And mender/ sage sword weaver counters scourges hard ...

 

Any class with heavy Power hits and a bit of sustain will eventually down a S/D Weaver. I play Core Guard myself, and I've never lost a 1v1 to a Sword Weaver, even if I mess up a few times.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

 

> Also, DH is pretty much countered by any and all duelist builds in the current meta. They just do more damage, have better stability and sustain and are more mobile.

 

Yep, what Yannir said. DH counters none of the meta builds. It maybe has a slight advantage over daredevil and deadeye (and only if they're forced to sit and duel the DH) but not to a large enough extent to call it a counter.

[Safandula.8723]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

>

> > Also, DH is pretty much countered by any and all duelist builds in the current meta. They just do more damage, have better stability and sustain and are more mobile.

>

> Yep, what Yannir said. DH counters none of the meta builds. It maybe has a slight advantage over daredevil and deadeye (and only if they're forced to sit and duel the DH) but not to a large enough extent to call it a counter.

 

IMO guardians are biggest counter for thief if ur forced to fight them. Thief can only run away

[Shala.8352]

> @"Serenity.6304" said:

> Gonna edit and answer everything tomorrow, but it is important to know that the list says

>

> **counters TO**

> e.g. Mirage -> Core Guard

>

> So the **last one** is the spec that counters, like in 1 vs 1, but as already mentioned in the first comment, my description / form was misleading, no worries.

>

> But already a big thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and correcting wrong information!

>

 

oh yea... a little missreading, you should change the direction of the ">" symbol XD.

Aniway, i still don't think necro hardcounter rev, especialy in 1v1 as a revenant player they are my favourite targets. Maybe in team fights they can pull out a good counter due to the revenant split dmg between other players but... i don't think necro is a counter to revenant, maybe conditions are.

And warrior? i think its an even match, even if i don't go 1v1 them often due to a battle of attrition (it takes too much time to kill one and i need to focus more in +1), i don't feel hardcountered from them like i am against thief or holo.

I would put Mirage as a counter to rev instead of necros.

[Eurantien.4632]

I don't think you understand what a counter means. Just because some thing can best something doesn't mean it's a counter. A counter is something that almost guarantees a win. Like core thief counter core mesmer.

 

In terms of soulbeasts vs mirage, condi mirage has a more favorable match up. So does power mirage. You could even argue that these counter soulbeasts due to condi with projectile reflect and boon rip, and power with boon rip.

 

I'd argue even warrior has a favorable match up vs boonbeast.

 

But if you're bad, or playing a bad build, it won't feel that way. And soulbeast can still beat you. That doesn't make soulbeast a counter though.

[UfoCoffee.2084]

> @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> On the thief section you've added core guard, but I know another clasic counter to dp drd as being DH too, while in some way I feel DE gets countered by dp drd, but it's debatable, I guess.

 

I wouldn't say countered. Depends on the DE offset weapons and if they're good enough to know when drd dodges are gone and switch to rifle to 2 shot it. In an area with a lot of Los d/p should win.

[UfoCoffee.2084]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > **_COUNTER TO..._**

> > **THIEF**

> > Deadeye -> Soulbeast, Core Guard, **all Warriors**, Holosmith

> > **WARRIOR**

> > Core Warrior -> **all Thiefs**, Mirage

> > Spellbreaker -> **all Thiefs**, Mirage

>

> just a little contradiction in your list.

 

D/P doesn't counter spellbreaker? They don't have enough damage to kill it. Even if they played perfectly it would take far too long and it would be time wasted for D/P.

 

Countered means D/P has a huge advantage starting off which 100% isn't the case.

[Dahkeus.8243]

Through the eyes of the PvP forum crowd, everything in the game is decided by class and build. A thread like this is a perfect fit for that sort of mentality...

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Serenity.6304" said:

> (...)

> **ELEMENTALIST**

> Core Ele S/F ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros

> Weaver ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros

> Tempest ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Warriors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros

> (...)

 

I suggest you seperate weaver between S/D and FA. :tongue:

 

Won't even bother to give my point of view, but I feat S/D might get overbuffed in the next balance pat-... hold on... I must be joking. :lol:

 

This just seems too random.

 

 

[Serenity.6304]

Edited everything with information from your answers. Still have no idea about "Counters" to Chronomancer, Core Ranger, or more Counters to the Warrior Specs. Are there no more Counters to Soul Beast atm?

Thank you already. If you hate the idea of such a list, maybe it's better to ignore it. No need to get bad mood in here :D If you like the idea or want to get some mistakes corrected, I am looking forward to your (further) contributions. It is not as easy as I thought. I thought creating such a list would be more straight-forward...

 

 

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > (...)

> > **ELEMENTALIST**

> > Core Ele S/F ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros

> > Weaver ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros

> > Tempest ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Warriors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros

> > (...)

>

> I suggest you seperate weaver between S/D and FA. :tongue:

>

> Won't even bother to give my point of view, but I feat S/D might get overbuffed in the next balance pat-... hold on... I must be joking. :lol:

>

> This just seems too random.

>

>

 

I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D

 

 

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> I don't think you understand what a counter means. Just because some thing can best something doesn't mean it's a counter. A counter is something that almost guarantees a win. Like core thief counter core mesmer.

>

> In terms of soulbeasts vs mirage, condi mirage has a more favorable match up. So does power mirage. You could even argue that these counter soulbeasts due to condi with projectile reflect and boon rip, and power with boon rip.

>

> I'd argue even warrior has a favorable match up vs boonbeast.

>

> But if you're bad, or playing a bad build, it won't feel that way. And soulbeast can still beat you. That doesn't make soulbeast a counter though.

 

I know, this might not be the true meaning of a counter, but this thread was meant to illustrate a way to mark certain weaknesses for each class, broken down into the specs as a whole and without getting into details or minor build differences / specific utilities. Yeah, so some of the mentioned counters are no real counters indeed. But nvm, this list is not to be taken too seriously, as you've already said: If you're bad, everything can be a counter (does not necessarily depend on the class)

 

@"Shala.8352" said:

> > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > Gonna edit and answer everything tomorrow, but it is important to know that the list says

> >

> > **counters TO**

> > e.g. Mirage -> Core Guard

> >

> > So the **last one** is the spec that counters, like in 1 vs 1, but as already mentioned in the first comment, my description / form was misleading, no worries.

> >

> > But already a big thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and correcting wrong information!

> >

>

> oh yea... a little missreading, you should change the direction of the ">" symbol XD.

 

Thanks, good idea!

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"UfoCoffee.2084" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > > **_COUNTER TO..._**

> > > **THIEF**

> > > Deadeye -> Soulbeast, Core Guard, **all Warriors**, Holosmith

> > > **WARRIOR**

> > > Core Warrior -> **all Thiefs**, Mirage

> > > Spellbreaker -> **all Thiefs**, Mirage

> >

> > just a little contradiction in your list.

>

> D/P doesn't counter spellbreaker? They don't have enough damage to kill it. Even if they played perfectly it would take far too long and it would be time wasted for D/P.

>

> Countered means D/P has a huge advantage starting off which 100% isn't the case.

 

not sure why you quote me, what i did quote was just what was in the original list. has nothing to do with d/p thief. but he said that deadeye get countered by all warriors but both listed warrior build would get countered by all thieves. that just cannot happen. he since changed the list.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Serenity.6304" said:

> (...)

> I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D

> (...)

 

Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

 

Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

 

€: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

 

S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

 

When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.

So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

 

In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

 

However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

 

So, what would I say counters S/D ele? **Boonbeast**, clearly. **Many quick roamers**, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe **DE/rifle thief**.

 

Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does **lack duelists** and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

 

I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.

_____________________________________________

 

I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

 

FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

 

It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

 

So **in duels it loses to basically anything**. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated **by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages** (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

 

I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.

_____________________________________________

€2: Well, why not write more to the others?

 

Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

 

Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand **(because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith**. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

 

Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

 

So it can counter ranged builds (**yolosoulbeast, rifle thief**). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > (...)

> > I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D

> > (...)

>

> Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

>

> Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

>

> €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

>

> S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

>

> When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.

> So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

>

> In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

>

> However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

>

> So, what would I say counters S/D ele? **Boonbeast**, clearly. **Many quick roamers**, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe **DE/rifle thief**.

>

> Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does **lack duelists** and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

>

> I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.

> _____________________________________________

>

> I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

>

> FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

>

> It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

>

> So **in duels it loses to basically anything**. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated **by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages** (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

>

> I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.

> _____________________________________________

> €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

>

> Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

>

> Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand **(because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith**. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

>

> Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

>

> So it can counter ranged builds (**yolosoulbeast, rifle thief**). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

 

Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

 

youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

 

Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.

and if you wanted to run AoE cleanses and heals you would take Fire/Water for aura share and condi cleanse on aura application, combine that with soldier runes and shouts and you have a double aoe cleanse and heal on each shout..

 

[herrmartell.7109]

In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

[UfoCoffee.2084]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"UfoCoffee.2084" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > > > **_COUNTER TO..._**

> > > > **THIEF**

> > > > Deadeye -> Soulbeast, Core Guard, **all Warriors**, Holosmith

> > > > **WARRIOR**

> > > > Core Warrior -> **all Thiefs**, Mirage

> > > > Spellbreaker -> **all Thiefs**, Mirage

> > >

> > > just a little contradiction in your list.

> >

> > D/P doesn't counter spellbreaker? They don't have enough damage to kill it. Even if they played perfectly it would take far too long and it would be time wasted for D/P.

> >

> > Countered means D/P has a huge advantage starting off which 100% isn't the case.

>

> not sure why you quote me, what i did quote was just what was in the original list. has nothing to do with d/p thief. but he said that deadeye get countered by all warriors but both listed warrior build would get countered by all thieves. that just cannot happen. he since changed the list.

 

Oh weird. I meant to quote something else but ended up like that. Did it on a train on my phone. Might explain it ?

[Eugchriss.2046]

In my experience, Rev counter holo

[RisenHowl.2419]

This list seems pretty accurate to me, though i'd add mirage counters reaper pretty hard

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > > (...)

> > > I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D

> > > (...)

> >

> > Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

> >

> > Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

> >

> > €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

> >

> > S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

> >

> > When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.

> > So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

> >

> > In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

> >

> > However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

> >

> > So, what would I say counters S/D ele? **Boonbeast**, clearly. **Many quick roamers**, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe **DE/rifle thief**.

> >

> > Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does **lack duelists** and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

> >

> > I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.

> > _____________________________________________

> >

> > I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

> >

> > FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

> >

> > It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

> >

> > So **in duels it loses to basically anything**. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated **by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages** (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

> >

> > I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.

> > _____________________________________________

> > €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

> >

> > Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

> >

> > Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand **(because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith**. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

> >

> > Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

> >

> > So it can counter ranged builds (**yolosoulbeast, rifle thief**). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

>

> Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

>

> youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

>

> Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.

>

 

Honestly, if you can nuke a firebrand with a celestial amulet, then there might have simply been a huge skill difference between you two. :tongue:

 

I am referring to the old water/earth/tempest build indeed. Tempest does not have enough easy to access and quick cleanses to work through the corruption and condi application of, say, a scourge. Water overload is great, for example, but the access is so tough, you have to predict condibursts by several seconds. It is not helpless, but firebrand is way better. F2 alone gives 2 cleanses every 4 seconds and 5 cleanses on a 12s CD, neglecting ammunition, blocks, resistance and utility skills.

 

Earth would actually be a very good solution for duels if you take Diamond Skin. But of course, it might leave you vulnerable to power damage and risk a drop of your cleanses if you get bursted. Water/fire would leave you **extremely** vulnerable to power classes, because you only get protection via oerloads. There are a lot of half-viable tempest options, I am trolling with scepter/warhorn and staff builds currently, but that's just it: Trolling newbies.^^

 

Now I am thinking about comparing "cleanses per second" for the two builds. I would actually be interested to think about making tempest a support versus power based compositions and firebrand the counter to condi compositions... but some other day!

 

So while I am not an expert for tempest, I do usually play in plat3 and know its strengths and weaknesses. :smile: But I am very open for discussions! Maybe your builds are variants having other counters and countering other classes?

 

> @"herrmartell.7109" said:

> In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

 

That's it. Mender can also stall boonbeast easily. It just also can't drive anything off point (in an appropriate amount of invested time) and is vulnerable to certain +1 classes.

 

I really don't want buffs to sustain. If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs as long as the DPS side gets buffs.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> This list seems pretty accurate to me, though i'd add mirage counters reaper pretty hard

 

Yeah mirage for sure and Chrono is a pretty close counter. Besides those 2 specs as a reaper ive had no other issues 1v1. Maybe a occasional Deadeye if i dont have cover near by to get in closer with my axe.

 

How does a spec have 1,000 ways to hide, dodge, be invulnerable and avoid all damage while spamming mass conditions or doing a power spike. Either some damage avoiding needs to go or the damage needs to be nerfed on both Chrono and Mirage. Just annoying

[JETWING.2759]

Conditions/boon corrupt counters Mesmers, Thieves, Eles, Guard and Rangers...

Power counters Wars, Engies, Revs and Necros...

Hard cc counters Necros and Engies.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > @"Serenity.6304" said:

> > > > (...)

> > > > I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D

> > > > (...)

> > >

> > > Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

> > >

> > > Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

> > >

> > > €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

> > >

> > > S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

> > >

> > > When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.

> > > So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

> > >

> > > In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

> > >

> > > However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

> > >

> > > So, what would I say counters S/D ele? **Boonbeast**, clearly. **Many quick roamers**, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe **DE/rifle thief**.

> > >

> > > Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does **lack duelists** and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

> > >

> > > I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.

> > > _____________________________________________

> > >

> > > I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

> > >

> > > FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

> > >

> > > It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

> > >

> > > So **in duels it loses to basically anything**. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated **by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages** (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

> > >

> > > I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.

> > > _____________________________________________

> > > €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

> > >

> > > Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

> > >

> > > Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand **(because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith**. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

> > >

> > > Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

> > >

> > > So it can counter ranged builds (**yolosoulbeast, rifle thief**). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

> >

> > Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

> >

> > youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

> >

> > Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.

> >

>

> Honestly, if you can nuke a firebrand with a celestial amulet, then there might have simply been a huge skill difference between you two. :tongue:

>

> I am referring to the old water/earth/tempest build indeed. Tempest does not have enough easy to access and quick cleanses to work through the corruption and condi application of, say, a scourge. Water overload is great, for example, but the access is so tough, you have to predict condibursts by several seconds. It is not helpless, but firebrand is way better. F2 alone gives 2 cleanses every 4 seconds and 5 cleanses on a 12s CD, neglecting ammunition, blocks, resistance and utility skills.

>

> Earth would actually be a very good solution for duels if you take Diamond Skin. But of course, it might leave you vulnerable to power damage and risk a drop of your cleanses if you get bursted. Water/fire would leave you **extremely** vulnerable to power classes, because you only get protection via oerloads. There are a lot of half-viable tempest options, I am trolling with scepter/warhorn and staff builds currently, but that's just it: Trolling newbies.^^

>

> Now I am thinking about comparing "cleanses per second" for the two builds. I would actually be interested to think about making tempest a support versus power based compositions and firebrand the counter to condi compositions... but some other day!

>

> So while I am not an expert for tempest, I do usually play in plat3 and know its strengths and weaknesses. :smile: But I am very open for discussions! Maybe your builds are variants having other counters and countering other classes?

>

> > @"herrmartell.7109" said:

> > In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

>

> That's it. Mender can also stall boonbeast easily. It just also can't drive anything off point (in an appropriate amount of invested time) and is vulnerable to certain +1 classes.

>

> I really don't want buffs to sustain. If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs as long as the DPS side gets buffs.

 

Bro...you go around with 800-1000 healing power just to avoid being oneshotted....**the issue here is not the damage**, the ele class lacks a well designed sustain mechanic and you have been running a bunker amulet since launch just to be considered playable and at soon as you get some mediocre results, you see people suggesting "sustain nerfs on ele"...now let me explain you how a proper balance process work :

 

1) You give the class a proper sustain mechanic no reliant on stats like it is for all other professions

2) You scale down the bunker potential of the class

3) You increase/decrease the damage accordingly

 

The weaver trait line offers no extra sustain mechanic to ele it's still the same "go bunker amulet or die".....**it's a busted design not something to celebrate**, you don't win by greatly outplaying the enemy in this game....these days you win by outsustaining the enemy! Everybody goes around with build packed with passive sustain, invulnerability, block and insta activation healing skills, stealth, chainablee CC on low CD etc etc etc...

 

Once you nerf further those 2 evasion skills on weaver....**wth would I need that extra dmg for?**, you would get outsustained even by Scooby doo playing blindfolded.

 

I apoligize if it seems that I am picking on you, got nothing against you..personally I don't even know you in game so...it's just that I am seeing this notion popping more and more on the forum : "nerf sustain on weaver" and ask myself : "what sustain?", without those 2 sword evades...I would go back using core ele or hell even tempest and at the point I would further ask myself :" why in the hell I am putting this much effort for little to no results?...let me go back to core war or core guard (both my mains)"

 

You people tend to pick some random personal account of 1v1 fights and then come here proposing half-assed suggestions while ignoring all the inta-class relations a delicate balance of power between them...that's why I suggested to the devs on another thread , to take forum feedback with a grain of salt

 

Again I apoligize if it seems I am antagonizing you ...**I have been triggered** by this suggestion "nerf sustain on weaver"...one too many time, you don't see a core guard/war, a holosmith, a herald, soulbeast, reaper etc etc....investing even a single point in healing power to reach the sustain they have and in your opinion an ele who lack that basic right to that basic sustain, who invest **greatly** in healing power to be on "par" with others...should be nerfed

 

If ele would have ungodly sustain on top of its basic sustain then yeah...**I would suggest to nerf sustain on ele**...but when an ele must invest in healing power a lot just to have that basic sustain ...I find any "nerf sustain" argument..absolutely ridicolous ..sorry brother

 

P.S why don't we nerf **Monk's focus?** so that guardians must invest in healing power ro reach 2k healing point for meditation usage...nerf**Healing signet** so that warriors must invest in healing power to reach 320 healing/second and in the same line nerf **Adrenal health** , nerf **Healing turret** so that engies can't go from 0 to hero while having 0 healing power , **nerf infuse light** , nerf everything down to ele level and force players to invest in that or that before we start complaining

[Stand The Wall.6987]

scrapper can fight mirage to a stalemate if its condi. condi mirage certainly doesn't counter scrapper. even against power mirage it stands a decent chance if the player is good.

soulbeast doesn't counter firebrand.

I think teef s/d and herald can counter firebrand decently depending.

[Tharan.9085]

U totally forgot DH :o