Are people satisfied that WvW has devolved into zerg v zerg fest?

[tippolit.3591]

> @"Fallesafe.5932" said:

> This game is terrible in every mode. I haven't logged in for ~6 months, and cant even make myself play it anymore.

>

 

And yet you frequent the forum. Odd to say the least.

[Sviel.7493]

Satisfaction is in short supply in WvW, for a variety of reasons.

 

Blob v. Blob is alright every now and then, but it's not the whole point of the game mode. There are those who confuse massive PvP with massive team deathmatch, but that's clearly not WvW. As @"MUDse.7623" said, the root of the problem is that no one cares to win. So instead of efficiency, they go for ease...which is found in blobs. There's also the influence of the GvG crew who are specifically looking for large fights, but even they aren't necessarily stoked about crashing map queues together.

 

Add to that the complete breakdown of defensive play against blobs and there's just no mechanism for the game to self-correct. There's no reason why people shouldn't blob. And, on top of all that, population imbalance means the blobbiest server also tends to have the highest roaming/scouting presence as well. It's a mess.

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> I have tried to champion the ability to better defend structures against enemy invaders. Unfortunately I get the, "If you don't have enough people to defend it, you deserve to lose it." responses back every time. I hate the nerf to Arrow Carts that they did. I hate that you can't stand on the walls to try to defend the walls. The only thing you can do is either let them take it, or suicide run and try to take out their siege. Either way they are going to take it from you now unless you can manage to get a bigger blob than them to steamroll over them.

It sounds like an exaggeration, in fact, as long as you have a couple of friends it can be really fun and effective to take and defend offensive structures. A wall still gives you a considerable advantage against players below it, if you know how to use it. The fact that you do not have to commit and can move through portals affords you the ability to make plenty of surprise runs at numerically superior forces. Simple counter siege can force large opposing squads to commit to lengthy and/or distanced siege to flush you out. All while having the possibility of bogging down a larger opposing force so your own pickup tag can come and jump them while they are commited to you.

 

That's what people mean by that you need to have enough people to defend. You don't need an equal force to your opponents but it is very ineffective to play alone. However, with a couple of friends who know what they are doing you can be highly effective in defending. The same goes for capturing. A small party of experienced players can do alot of harm to opponents structures and force them to commit to defending them. I've been in small gimick side-guilds that have specialized in both those things, even on the very server you are on, that thrived on drawing out zergs in the 30's with a small party.

 

So while I wouldn't necessarily call your perspective stupid in this, I also think you need to open your mind up to other perspectives and also attempt to look at it objectively. Numerical inferiority is an inferiority of course, you can't really escape that fact and sometimes opponents will commit to a structure in a way that makes it very difficult to defend. However, objectively structures are force multipliers and you stand a better chance say 5v30 with a tower than without one. There is much more that can be done than what people in threads like this one leads others onto believe. In itself, that is an issue within the game mode now because there are fewer creative and self-sufficient players around that knows how to make things like this work.

 

With disablers and invulnurability upgrades defending in this way is even more effective now. It really just is a question of ability and at the end of the day, you see some people who always die on walls and some who never die on walls (they even stay alive if pulled off the walls). It's as with everything else, knowing the classes and using them well. Using them to their advantages and picking the right tool for the job. When it comes to numbers, the best help I can give you is to think of things in terms of critical mass. There are plenty of things you can do punching above your weight, but there are also limitations to it, as there should be. If you stay around 25%, regardless of scale, there are plenty of backhanded ways to get things done. If you fall down towards 10% you tend to pass critical mass and it becomes really hard to get anything done.

 

 

[HazyDaisy.4107]

I think it was always a zergfest, it's just that in the past some were bigger than others and just didn't notice the little guys as they papered their keeps. This week, with double xp and mounts, it's not that everyone is of equal numbers, it's just that there's just a bigger presence across the board and everyone's keeps are papered.

[Hitman.5829]

No, I hate that now lone roaming is dead. I have not log in that often since mounts were introduce and probably I will log less and less as the game progresses more into PvE. I think its time for me to check my other games:

* GTA 5

* Hitman season 2

* Anno 1701

* The Witcher

* FIFA

 

Well, thanks to Anets decisions I will be playing less this game. For me, it has become a boring game since all I cared about in WvW was chasing, killing and escaping, but now with mounts I cannot do that. maybe I will keep an eye for WvW once in a while, but for now I have other games that are more interesting.

[displayname.8315]

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

 

> all I cared about in WvW was chasing

 

If you come back you could try fights and stuff too they are pretty fun. Can be a social game if your into that. RP, GvG, havok guilds could be up your alley.

 

Don't limit yourself

[Sviel.7493]

@"subversiontwo.7501"

 

Obviously, being alone isn't ideal, but that's clearly not what he was talking about. The problem was specifically the ease of attacking over the top of the wall compared to attacking people at the base of it. You can manage to do some things in the current system, but there's no argument that this basic inequality exists.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Because blob mass of wvw community overweights small scale community and roamers, it's no brainer Anet would focus on masses. don't actually have problems with Anet following that direction, what bugs me is that said WvW community often imposes their opinion on the other groups. Whether it's not willing to stick with blob (Make us Whole Again Isaac) or running proper build. Mind it, I have two meta blob builds myself but I am sick and tired of some entitled blobbing shit picking on somebody else for running something they don't consider "ApPRoPriate BUildz"

 

Anyway, WvW mode is full PvE now so why bother. And in case somebody doesn't believe it still here is a video from other related post

[DKRathalos.9625]

Well isn't WvW actually about zerg vs zerg? The problem lies within the class balances actually.

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"Sviel.7493" said:

> @"subversiontwo.7501"

>

> Obviously, being alone isn't ideal, but that's clearly not what he was talking about. The problem was specifically the ease of attacking over the top of the wall compared to attacking people at the base of it. You can manage to do some things in the current system, but there's no argument that this basic inequality exists.

I beg to differ, I'd say that's exactly what's being talked about here. The argument was for immunity on walls. That would enable classes to stand and fire with impunity as opposed to having to be adaptive, smart and organised about it. The only inequality with regards to walls is that it is better to have them than not. What is being asked for is making that inequality more favourable to defenders to which my response was that it is already quite favourable and people in general are just not good at taking advantage of it anymore because dedicated defenders are as rare as most other dedicated subgroups of players these days. I'm not saying the mode is entirely made up of tag-followers and solo players these days but it has certainly gravitated alot in that direction. That is also why we see these kinds of suggestions.

 

At the end of the day, a single Soulbeast on a wall should be far less successful than four Weavers and a spririt Druid (or a Scrapper, a Spellbreaker and three staff Daredevils) etc. That dedicated defenders are rare doesn't make it any less appealing, competetive or effective, rather the opposite. It isn't expected anymore and competition is low. The same goes for commanding or havocing around commanders. The available content is ripe for it if you do it right. Most of these issues have nothing to do with new, bad, casual or PvE, they have to do laziness and consumption - and the developer taking that direction over instigation and creativity when it comes to most things in the game (-mode).

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Trajan.4953" said:

> I don't know, these days I see more and more smaller groups easily dismantling big blobs and leaving a trail of bodies in their wake.

 

Hitting a PvE filled blob IS fun.

 

But it will start to become...,, boring...

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Personally, I don't see this as an issue. Most of the time, at least during peak hours there is some zerg cloud location in EB but I avoid these most of the time.

 

I'm more into defending structures or capping them and this still works fine outside of the zerg. Sometimes I may joing the zerg for a while to get some heavy lootbags or become one.

 

I would say, look around on the maps for a commander that is on a capping spree and join there, and leave the zergs alone if you dislike them.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

>The main issue for me is that you can't counter giant blob of people for that you need a bigger blob and at the end it devolves into a PVE loot train of flipping castles instead of pvp.

 

This past week was a PPT kittenshow, though it got better towards the end. I kid you not, on Tuesday night you would go to attack a tower and find 4 friendly catapults intact from the last time you flipped it - enemy players didn't even bother to clear the siege of the opposing teams as they were either already on to the next objective to flip, or they wanted to make it easier for the enemy to flip it so they could come back and flip it again. That wasn't WvW.

 

Plenty of fights happen in Zergs, and in fact some commanders don't even bother trying to flip objectives, they just want to hunt down and fight the other teams. They will attack objectives only to bait their opponents out to their map / location so they can fight.

 

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

>And another issue is that you dont get any advantage at defending a castle the walls there are a death trap, scourge just put shades on it and you cant step on them

 

Because you're not supposed to defend the castle from the walls or from inside. You're supposed to go outside, and.....fight. And if you don't understand the advantage you get from fighting the enemy while being covered/supported by siege from objective, then you need to play this game mode some more.

 

Now if you can't go outside and fight because the enemy has far greater numbers, then either rally people from the map / other map, or just deal with the reality that are outnumbered. Greater numbers doesn't mean everything in WvW, but it means a lot.

 

 

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

>The people whine that there is skill lag well the server probably can't handle 500 people

Skill lag is a problem, sure, but it was an acute problem this week as the servers were super full - I've never seen 50person queues on every map before.

 

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

>People abandon the mode of boredom cause the zergs ruin it, 49 people follow one dorito to stoke its ego.

 

In. Your. Opinion.

 

Not only is it impossible for you to know what other people think or feel, it's also impossible to know why other players are following a commander.

 

That you have such a disjointed view of the game mode screams to me of sour grapes. I have a ton of fun running around in a zerg, and while some commanders are better than others, I haven't played with one yet who was on an ego trip.

 

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

>The whole thing needs rework cause many games at the moment are being developed with the same mode in mind Mount and Blade, Kamelot unchained, Crowfall, >Ashes of creation and what ever you could find with google, this could be the next BR craze or just a niche thing but the point is that Guild wars has so much potential to >be so much more.

 

If you searched the forums, the amount of threads asking for a rework to dungeons/fractals/sPVP/WvW/every profession/every elite for every profession will make your head spin. Not only does it seem silly, but it's impossible to literally rework everything. They can tweak here and there, but major overhauls of anything seem doubtful at this stage. Maybe in a future expansion where there is a price tag attached, who knows?

 

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> I have tried to champion the ability to better defend structures against enemy invaders. Unfortunately I get the, "If you don't have enough people to defend it, you deserve to lose it." responses back every time. I hate the nerf to Arrow Carts that they did. I hate that you can't stand on the walls to try to defend the walls. The only thing you can do is either let them take it, or suicide run and try to take out their siege. Either way they are going to take it from you now unless you can manage to get a bigger blob than them to steamroll over them.

 

Have to agree here, that was a main concern with nerfing defensive siege is that it would only favor the zerg and create more k-trains. The point of a strong point is to allow fewer people to hold out a bit longer against a larger force. Each siege needs a counter and you need counters to players. Be that in tools we have or new ones built on similar models.

[Vancho.8750]

@Turkeyspit.3965 the whole point of fortifications is to protect the people inside and give smaller force the advantage to stall till help arrives, you are not supposed to go out and get slaughtered most sieges end in waiting for the resources of the defenders to deplete and them to surrender.

Also the suggestions that i made about every person taking space and having collisions with the other people ads extra tactical depth to the mode. Reducing the power of profession skills and redoing the masteries to be more restrictive like trait system and specific group skills could improve the army v army feel. Your commander gets special command bar that activates special button skill shield wall on the classes with shields, long range get get baragge skill, magus get to summon meteor or giant elemental, builders get to construct big ass cannon, the mounted guys get trample i know it could be issue with animations but they already have many one offs that could be used.

Suggest stuff, and stop saying it can't change maybe it won't now but someone could read it and say to himself that sounds nice might add it and in a year or two it could be in.

My fear now is that when alliances come the zerg part of the community will push out the rest and the mode will start to die down, and don't say its dead already i still get ques on EBG. This could be the worst case scenario but every time i enter WvW it feels that way. If you don't run the Metabattle build template you don't deserve to play mentality breaks it for me, no one is trying new strategy everyone is running the same group i don't get how people don't get bored of doing the pirate ship now.

[shiri.4257]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> Zergs are the thing to do in WvW but it might be the thing that is destroying the mode.The main issue for me is that you can't counter giant blob of people for that you need a bigger blob and at the end it devolves into a PVE loot train of flipping castles instead of pvp. And another issue is that you dont get any advantage at defending a castle the walls there are a death trap, scourge just put shades on it and you cant step on them. So there isn't much point in defending you just start siege when they take it and you are in when the 5 minutes are up and you flip it. The siege mechanics the walls the doors the useless traps all feel week. The people whine that there is skill lag well the server probably can't handle 500 people on the same small spot spamming AOE people clutter on top of each other, maybe if they had collision 1 space 1 person it would strain the server less. People abandon the mode of boredom cause the zergs ruin it, 49 people follow one dorito to stoke its ego. The whole thing needs rework cause many games at the moment are being developed with the same mode in mind Mount and Blade, Kamelot unchained, Crowfall, Ashes of creation and what ever you could find with google, this could be the next BR craze or just a niche thing but the point is that Guild wars has so much potential to be so much more.

 

If you're talking about the current blob v blob. you can literally kill the 50 with 15-20 man guilds coordinating dps and sustain. it feels like a 2012 [RG] zerg busting simulator. Most of the zergs, the players aren't even in voice coms much less run a proper build, and even much less a theory crafted built to a certain playstyle and composition. We can't even proceed to counter play until the average pug understands the meta.

[Bored.8461]

I think if we want to have different play styles in WvW we need different maps designed for different play styles. We need a map designed for small scale groups, and we need a map designed for roamers. As it stands right now people run around in zergs, because that is what the maps are designed for.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Bored.8461" said:

> I think if we want to have different play styles in WvW we need different maps designed for different play styles. We need a map designed for small scale groups, and we need a map designed for roamers. As it stands right now people run around in zergs, because that is what the maps are designed for.

 

Exactly.

[Grim West.3194]

I don't mind zerg play in RvR as long as other types of play like Havoc and roaming are viable.

 

Havoc is not really a viable play style in GW2. Yes it has limited uses, but for the most part GW2's version of small group play is garbage. But after 6 years, I doubt ANET will ever fix it.

[displayname.8315]

> @"Grim West.3194" said:

> I don't mind zerg play in RvR as long as other types of play like Havoc and roaming are viable.

>

> Havoc is not really a viable play style in GW2. Yes it has limited uses, but for the most part GW2's version of small group play is garbage. But after 6 years, I doubt ANET will ever fix it.

 

Havoc is usually 5-10 people and plenty viable. Are you in a havoc guild or just saying it doesn't work for some reason? The good ones don't get run over by zergs, they use comms, they know WvW and how it works.

 

Zergs can be bad spam 1'ers and so can anyone else whether they call themselves roamers or havoc.

[Sviel.7493]

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> > @"Sviel.7493" said:

> > @"subversiontwo.7501"

> >

> > Obviously, being alone isn't ideal, but that's clearly not what he was talking about. The problem was specifically the ease of attacking over the top of the wall compared to attacking people at the base of it. You can manage to do some things in the current system, but there's no argument that this basic inequality exists.

> I beg to differ, I'd say that's exactly what's being talked about here. The argument was for immunity on walls. That would enable classes to stand and fire with impunity as opposed to having to be adaptive, smart and organised about it. The only inequality with regards to walls is that it is better to have them than not. What is being asked for is making that inequality more favourable to defenders to which my response was that it is already quite favourable and people in general are just not good at taking advantage of it anymore because dedicated defenders are as rare as most other dedicated subgroups of players these days. I'm not saying the mode is entirely made up of tag-followers and solo players these days but it has certainly gravitated alot in that direction. That is also why we see these kinds of suggestions.

>

> At the end of the day, a single Soulbeast on a wall should be far less successful than four Weavers and a spririt Druid (or a Scrapper, a Spellbreaker and three staff Daredevils) etc. That dedicated defenders are rare doesn't make it any less appealing, competetive or effective, rather the opposite. It isn't expected anymore and competition is low. The same goes for commanding or havocing around commanders. The available content is ripe for it if you do it right. Most of these issues have nothing to do with new, bad, casual or PvE, they have to do laziness and consumption - and the developer taking that direction over instigation and creativity when it comes to most things in the game (-mode).

>

 

He doesn't mention immunity at all. He just said that he hates that you can't defend from on top of a wall. He didn't ask for or make any suggestion. The whole bit about standing and firing with impunity is entirely your creation.

 

But you surely can't be acting in good faith if you're saying that the only inequality with walls is that is better to have them than not. They are certainly useful in a certain sense, but that doesn't change the way AoE wraps in this game engine. Or how LoS works.

[Genuinetheo.6591]

Siege. This is your offense, as well as your defense. Whenever you run to your home keep, 9 times out of 10, if that siege is getting refreshed, you will see a lot of defensive siege set up.

 

This is your line of defense (and offense) against a zerg.

 

Start working on getting your Provisions Mastery rank to 2, which will take 5 WvW rank points to get. This will give you the Permanent Portable Provisioner. You can buy and set up your own siege at any tower you have, provided you have the currency and supply to build it. Learn about the different siege and consider how you might use it to defend an area. Set it up properly so that people who get on your siege don't instantly die from AoE spam.

 

If you find you're about to be in a world of hurt, then purchase a Siege Disabler and get to disabling. Call out the tower that you are defending.

 

Shield Generators are your best friend if you want to make a tower look as inhospitable as possible. Zergs will often travel the path of least resistance, to farm more PPT (points per tick), and someone defending a t1 or even t2 tower can burn enough time that they can lose resources invested. In other words, lose essential territories they already have.

 

Build two if you really want to make someone hate you.

[Silver.2076]

I love bvb! GW2 is the game with the best graphics in this type of game mode. Apart from the fact that the game system is fantastic.

The movements of the masses, a targeted blow and the watch we break their interplay - wonderful.

[Silver.2076]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Bored.8461" said:

> > I think if we want to have different play styles in WvW we need different maps designed for different play styles. We need a map designed for small scale groups, and we need a map designed for roamers. As it stands right now people run around in zergs, because that is what the maps are designed for.

>

> Exactly.

 

there is one! the red borderland map - nor large scale grp like the long paths and chokes. so feel free, get all there!

[StrawHat.2639]

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

> No, I hate that now lone roaming is dead. I have not log in that often since mounts were introduce and probably I will log less and less as the game progresses more into PvE. I think its time for me to check my other games:

> * GTA 5

> * Hitman season 2

> * Anno 1701

> * The Witcher

> * FIFA

>

> Well, thanks to Anets decisions I will be playing less this game. For me, it has become a boring game since all I cared about in WvW was chasing, killing and escaping, but now with mounts I cannot do that. maybe I will keep an eye for WvW once in a while, but for now I have other games that are more interesting.

 

Am feeling more and more like you after 6yrs of changes...like to finish dark souls 3 and witcher 3 that I left uncompleted...