RUNICBLACK.7630 Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 With regard to Aegis as a block, I have question has anybody seriously tested it against attacks that do multiple hits like Rangers Longbow attack Rapid Fire to test if it blocks all of the hits from the Rapid Fire or if it only blocks the first unlike the normal block which would stop every hit during its duration. The way it is written and described it seems to only block the first hit but I've never actually tested it . The original Aegis from GW1 would be way to powerful because during it's duration all attacks have a 50% chance being blocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > Aegis should work as barrier, period. > > > > > > > > Just kill aegis as a boon. > > > > > > > > The traits we have that improve aegis could improve barrier instead. > > > > > > > > Burn when hitting a player with barrier > > > > > > > > A part of the damage done to a target with barrier heals the target. > > > > > > > > A player with barrier has a chance of proccing aoe damage when hit upon. > > > > > > > > Barrier degenerates x% slower. > > > > > > > > Its seriously backwards that when they came up with barrier as a concept guardians were left out whne it should have been the forst profession that got it. > > > > > > Now this I can stand behind ... barrier is the mechanic Aegis should have been. Aegis is a very inferior mechanic that any MMO veteran knows how to trivialize in PVP ... ESPECIALLY if they can see it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we have a compelling argument to discard Aegis as a boon and move to barrier. It's very ingrained part of the Guardian concept. I see our path forward here being thoughtful expansion of Aegis and it's support traits and a small reliance on allied-supplied barriers. > > > > Barrier, in its current form, isn't even that good, particularly so for guardian who is amongst the lowest hp pool professions. Barrier's max value is determined by hp pool so it alone wouldn't keep you upright, especially if it degens so quick. Unless they showered guardian in barrier, it not a suitable replacement for it. > > > > But again, Im talking about barrier right now. In the future, it might be different but stopping a rinky 3k damage attack with barrier but still getting stunned/condi/more burst damage isn't as attractive as stopping that attack completely. > > > > And I'm not saying aegis is all we need and barrier is garbage, more talking toward replacing aegis just because barrier is new. > > I thought it was determined by the amount of healing power. > Healing power improves how much barrier you can grant but the maximum barrier a player can have is 50% of their max hp. The higher your hp pool, the more barrier you can have which i also assume means the more sum total time you can have barrier if it deteriorates at a linear rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > > Aegis should work as barrier, period. > > > > > > > > > > Just kill aegis as a boon. > > > > > > > > > > The traits we have that improve aegis could improve barrier instead. > > > > > > > > > > Burn when hitting a player with barrier > > > > > > > > > > A part of the damage done to a target with barrier heals the target. > > > > > > > > > > A player with barrier has a chance of proccing aoe damage when hit upon. > > > > > > > > > > Barrier degenerates x% slower. > > > > > > > > > > Its seriously backwards that when they came up with barrier as a concept guardians were left out whne it should have been the forst profession that got it. > > > > > > > > Now this I can stand behind ... barrier is the mechanic Aegis should have been. Aegis is a very inferior mechanic that any MMO veteran knows how to trivialize in PVP ... ESPECIALLY if they can see it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we have a compelling argument to discard Aegis as a boon and move to barrier. It's very ingrained part of the Guardian concept. I see our path forward here being thoughtful expansion of Aegis and it's support traits and a small reliance on allied-supplied barriers. > > > > > > Barrier, in its current form, isn't even that good, particularly so for guardian who is amongst the lowest hp pool professions. Barrier's max value is determined by hp pool so it alone wouldn't keep you upright, especially if it degens so quick. Unless they showered guardian in barrier, it not a suitable replacement for it. > > > > > > But again, Im talking about barrier right now. In the future, it might be different but stopping a rinky 3k damage attack with barrier but still getting stunned/condi/more burst damage isn't as attractive as stopping that attack completely. > > > > > > And I'm not saying aegis is all we need and barrier is garbage, more talking toward replacing aegis just because barrier is new. > > > > I thought it was determined by the amount of healing power. > > > > Healing power improves how much barrier you can grant but the maximum barrier a player can have is 50% of their max hp. The higher your hp pool, the more barrier you can have which i also assume means the more sum total time you can have barrier if it deteriorates at a linear rate. Barrier begins to decay 2 seconds after its acquired. Regardless of how much barrier you have be it 5k or 1k after 6 seconds it will decay to 0. If you gain more barrier during that time the decay resets and the process starts again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNICBLACK.7630 Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 I was bringing up the previous question up on Aegis because there appears to be a very mixed opinion on the addition of barrier to the Guardian's arsenal so to speak and by all appearances alot of the divide seems fall on the amount of Aegis/Block that we have available to us when in my personal viewpoint I seriously find that Aegis is rather over rated but I don't subscribe to the idea that it should be thrown out or changed to GW1 version(seriously Overpowered) but how about the option to have some like 1/4 or 1/2 second of Protection boon applied when it breaks that brings a little bit closer to a true block without being fully equal to it and make it an option in our trait line so it's trade off and not baseline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @RUNICBLACK.7630 said: > With regard to Aegis as a block, I have question has anybody seriously tested it against attacks that do multiple hits like Rangers Longbow attack Rapid Fire to test if it blocks all of the hits from the Rapid Fire or if it only blocks the first unlike the normal block which would stop every hit during its duration. The way it is written and described it seems to only block the first hit but I've never actually tested it . The original Aegis from GW1 would be way to powerful because during it's duration all attacks have a 50% chance being blocked. Aegis only blocks the first hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutaly.6257 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > > Aegis should work as barrier, period. > > > > > > > > > > Just kill aegis as a boon. > > > > > > > > > > The traits we have that improve aegis could improve barrier instead. > > > > > > > > > > Burn when hitting a player with barrier > > > > > > > > > > A part of the damage done to a target with barrier heals the target. > > > > > > > > > > A player with barrier has a chance of proccing aoe damage when hit upon. > > > > > > > > > > Barrier degenerates x% slower. > > > > > > > > > > Its seriously backwards that when they came up with barrier as a concept guardians were left out whne it should have been the forst profession that got it. > > > > > > > > Now this I can stand behind ... barrier is the mechanic Aegis should have been. Aegis is a very inferior mechanic that any MMO veteran knows how to trivialize in PVP ... ESPECIALLY if they can see it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we have a compelling argument to discard Aegis as a boon and move to barrier. It's very ingrained part of the Guardian concept. I see our path forward here being thoughtful expansion of Aegis and it's support traits and a small reliance on allied-supplied barriers. > > > > > > Barrier, in its current form, isn't even that good, particularly so for guardian who is amongst the lowest hp pool professions. Barrier's max value is determined by hp pool so it alone wouldn't keep you upright, especially if it degens so quick. Unless they showered guardian in barrier, it not a suitable replacement for it. > > > > > > But again, Im talking about barrier right now. In the future, it might be different but stopping a rinky 3k damage attack with barrier but still getting stunned/condi/more burst damage isn't as attractive as stopping that attack completely. > > > > > > And I'm not saying aegis is all we need and barrier is garbage, more talking toward replacing aegis just because barrier is new. > > > > I thought it was determined by the amount of healing power. > > > > Healing power improves how much barrier you can grant but the maximum barrier a player can have is 50% of their max hp. The higher your hp pool, the more barrier you can have which i also assume means the more sum total time you can have barrier if it deteriorates at a linear rate. Which also would mean that a guardian can max out his barrier with less investment in healing power? Running with lets say 18k healthpool and being able to give a 9k barrier compared to one aegis application is better in almost any scenarion in this game, excluded single targets with slow hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > > > Aegis should work as barrier, period. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just kill aegis as a boon. > > > > > > > > > > > > The traits we have that improve aegis could improve barrier instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > Burn when hitting a player with barrier > > > > > > > > > > > > A part of the damage done to a target with barrier heals the target. > > > > > > > > > > > > A player with barrier has a chance of proccing aoe damage when hit upon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barrier degenerates x% slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its seriously backwards that when they came up with barrier as a concept guardians were left out whne it should have been the forst profession that got it. > > > > > > > > > > Now this I can stand behind ... barrier is the mechanic Aegis should have been. Aegis is a very inferior mechanic that any MMO veteran knows how to trivialize in PVP ... ESPECIALLY if they can see it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we have a compelling argument to discard Aegis as a boon and move to barrier. It's very ingrained part of the Guardian concept. I see our path forward here being thoughtful expansion of Aegis and it's support traits and a small reliance on allied-supplied barriers. > > > > > > > > Barrier, in its current form, isn't even that good, particularly so for guardian who is amongst the lowest hp pool professions. Barrier's max value is determined by hp pool so it alone wouldn't keep you upright, especially if it degens so quick. Unless they showered guardian in barrier, it not a suitable replacement for it. > > > > > > > > But again, Im talking about barrier right now. In the future, it might be different but stopping a rinky 3k damage attack with barrier but still getting stunned/condi/more burst damage isn't as attractive as stopping that attack completely. > > > > > > > > And I'm not saying aegis is all we need and barrier is garbage, more talking toward replacing aegis just because barrier is new. > > > > > > I thought it was determined by the amount of healing power. > > > > > > > Healing power improves how much barrier you can grant but the maximum barrier a player can have is 50% of their max hp. The higher your hp pool, the more barrier you can have which i also assume means the more sum total time you can have barrier if it deteriorates at a linear rate. > > Which also would mean that a guardian can max out his barrier with less investment in healing power? > > Running with lets say 18k healthpool and being able to give a 9k barrier compared to one aegis application is better in almost any scenarion in this game, excluded single targets with slow hits. Cant really compare 9k barrier to 1 application of aegis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutaly.6257 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Sigmoid.7082 said: > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > > > > Aegis should work as barrier, period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just kill aegis as a boon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The traits we have that improve aegis could improve barrier instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Burn when hitting a player with barrier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A part of the damage done to a target with barrier heals the target. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A player with barrier has a chance of proccing aoe damage when hit upon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barrier degenerates x% slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its seriously backwards that when they came up with barrier as a concept guardians were left out whne it should have been the forst profession that got it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this I can stand behind ... barrier is the mechanic Aegis should have been. Aegis is a very inferior mechanic that any MMO veteran knows how to trivialize in PVP ... ESPECIALLY if they can see it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we have a compelling argument to discard Aegis as a boon and move to barrier. It's very ingrained part of the Guardian concept. I see our path forward here being thoughtful expansion of Aegis and it's support traits and a small reliance on allied-supplied barriers. > > > > > > > > > > Barrier, in its current form, isn't even that good, particularly so for guardian who is amongst the lowest hp pool professions. Barrier's max value is determined by hp pool so it alone wouldn't keep you upright, especially if it degens so quick. Unless they showered guardian in barrier, it not a suitable replacement for it. > > > > > > > > > > But again, Im talking about barrier right now. In the future, it might be different but stopping a rinky 3k damage attack with barrier but still getting stunned/condi/more burst damage isn't as attractive as stopping that attack completely. > > > > > > > > > > And I'm not saying aegis is all we need and barrier is garbage, more talking toward replacing aegis just because barrier is new. > > > > > > > > I thought it was determined by the amount of healing power. > > > > > > > > > > Healing power improves how much barrier you can grant but the maximum barrier a player can have is 50% of their max hp. The higher your hp pool, the more barrier you can have which i also assume means the more sum total time you can have barrier if it deteriorates at a linear rate. > > > > Which also would mean that a guardian can max out his barrier with less investment in healing power? > > > > Running with lets say 18k healthpool and being able to give a 9k barrier compared to one aegis application is better in almost any scenarion in this game, excluded single targets with slow hits. > > Cant really compare 9k barrier to 1 application of aegis. > Which is my point, barrier outshines aegis in all game modes hence why aegis should be scrapped and replaced with barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > Aegis should work as barrier, period. > > Just kill aegis as a boon. > > The traits we have that improve aegis could improve barrier instead. > > Burn when hitting a player with barrier > > A part of the damage done to a target with barrier heals the target. > > A player with barrier has a chance of proccing aoe damage when hit upon. > > Barrier degenerates x% slower. > > Its seriously backwards that when they came up with barrier as a concept guardians were left out whne it should have been the forst profession that got it. This would be ideal as aegis today is such a finicky boon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNICBLACK.7630 Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 The problem I have always felt was the issue with Aegis in GW2 was that it seemed that my opponent had more control over it's usefulness to me than I did as with the case of multiple hit attacks but only the first hit is blocked particularly in a PvP environment. That being said I still doubt the possibility of it being completely scrapped is feasible considering the resourse use of the dev's time, so my thoughts would be some sort addendum to it like I mentioned earlier that being a very short duration Protection boon for after Aegis breaks or some other effect. Because wether we like it or not how much extra work in programming and how somethings impact on overall game play are always going to determine if a change is implemented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > @Sigmoid.7082 said: > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > > > > > Aegis should work as barrier, period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just kill aegis as a boon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The traits we have that improve aegis could improve barrier instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Burn when hitting a player with barrier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A part of the damage done to a target with barrier heals the target. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A player with barrier has a chance of proccing aoe damage when hit upon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barrier degenerates x% slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its seriously backwards that when they came up with barrier as a concept guardians were left out whne it should have been the forst profession that got it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this I can stand behind ... barrier is the mechanic Aegis should have been. Aegis is a very inferior mechanic that any MMO veteran knows how to trivialize in PVP ... ESPECIALLY if they can see it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we have a compelling argument to discard Aegis as a boon and move to barrier. It's very ingrained part of the Guardian concept. I see our path forward here being thoughtful expansion of Aegis and it's support traits and a small reliance on allied-supplied barriers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barrier, in its current form, isn't even that good, particularly so for guardian who is amongst the lowest hp pool professions. Barrier's max value is determined by hp pool so it alone wouldn't keep you upright, especially if it degens so quick. Unless they showered guardian in barrier, it not a suitable replacement for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > But again, Im talking about barrier right now. In the future, it might be different but stopping a rinky 3k damage attack with barrier but still getting stunned/condi/more burst damage isn't as attractive as stopping that attack completely. > > > > > > > > > > > > And I'm not saying aegis is all we need and barrier is garbage, more talking toward replacing aegis just because barrier is new. > > > > > > > > > > I thought it was determined by the amount of healing power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Healing power improves how much barrier you can grant but the maximum barrier a player can have is 50% of their max hp. The higher your hp pool, the more barrier you can have which i also assume means the more sum total time you can have barrier if it deteriorates at a linear rate. > > > > > > Which also would mean that a guardian can max out his barrier with less investment in healing power? > > > > > > Running with lets say 18k healthpool and being able to give a 9k barrier compared to one aegis application is better in almost any scenarion in this game, excluded single targets with slow hits. > > > > Cant really compare 9k barrier to 1 application of aegis. > > > > Which is my point, barrier outshines aegis in all game modes hence why aegis should be scrapped and replaced with barrier. This isn't entirely true either. They both have benefits and drawbacks. Besides my point was comparing a barrier value of 9k to only one instance of aegis is unrealistic in terms of equal comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutaly.6257 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 the only benefit aegis has compared to barrier is that it can absorb those huge single blows, if its not unblockable. As i said barrier is better in 95% of all scenarios in this game and the only time aegis shines is if its traited for healing. Which is weird that something that is ment to block damage is infact the best healing option the guardian has after PoF is released. With all the aoe and conditions in this game aegis is obsolete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffdragon.1523 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 I could actually kind of see it if [Virtue of Courage](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Courage) accumulated a small amount of Barrier very few seconds, and activating it granted a larger portion. Keep the degradation as well with a ratcheting effect, so that it follows a logarithmic curve (and thus caps out at some function of your level) for the passive. This would also give better synergy to the Protection gained from [inspired Virtue](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspired_Virtue), which might otherwise be useless due to the application of Aegis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > the only benefit aegis has compared to barrier is that it can absorb those huge single blows, if its not unblockable. As i said barrier is better in 95% of all scenarios in this game and the only time aegis shines is if its traited for healing. Which is weird that something that is ment to block damage is infact the best healing option the guardian has after PoF is released. > > With all the aoe and conditions in this game aegis is obsolete. What about those other pesky moves with stun/daze/blowback/pull/condi/etc? Barrier does not absorb those effects AFAIK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutaly.6257 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > the only benefit aegis has compared to barrier is that it can absorb those huge single blows, if its not unblockable. As i said barrier is better in 95% of all scenarios in this game and the only time aegis shines is if its traited for healing. Which is weird that something that is ment to block damage is infact the best healing option the guardian has after PoF is released. > > > > With all the aoe and conditions in this game aegis is obsolete. > > What about those other pesky moves with stun/daze/blowback/pull/condi/etc? Barrier does not absorb those effects AFAIK. When being hit by 10 different things all the time its just luck if aegis blocks the "right" one and in a one on one situation the attacker can actually just spam the auto one more time before applying the cc. Its common knowledge that you never try to cc/burst a guardian with the first attack. And since there are stunbreakers, stability and resistance that are meant to deal with specific types of attacks aegis wasnt meant to block specific typs of attacks to begin with, other than big hits. The boon is obsolete due to how the game evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > the only benefit aegis has compared to barrier is that it can absorb those huge single blows, if its not unblockable. As i said barrier is better in 95% of all scenarios in this game and the only time aegis shines is if its traited for healing. Which is weird that something that is ment to block damage is infact the best healing option the guardian has after PoF is released. > > > > > > With all the aoe and conditions in this game aegis is obsolete. > > > > What about those other pesky moves with stun/daze/blowback/pull/condi/etc? Barrier does not absorb those effects AFAIK. > > When being hit by 10 different things all the time its just luck if aegis blocks the "right" one and in a one on one situation the attacker can actually just spam the auto one more time before applying the cc. Its common knowledge that you never try to cc/burst a guardian with the first attack. > > And since there are stunbreakers, stability and resistance that are meant to deal with specific types of attacks aegis wasnt meant to block specific typs of attacks to begin with, other than big hits. > > The boon is obsolete due to how the game evolved. I was arguing the "only benefit aegis has over barrier" point. Either aegis cannot do what i describe or barrier can too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutaly.6257 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > > the only benefit aegis has compared to barrier is that it can absorb those huge single blows, if its not unblockable. As i said barrier is better in 95% of all scenarios in this game and the only time aegis shines is if its traited for healing. Which is weird that something that is ment to block damage is infact the best healing option the guardian has after PoF is released. > > > > > > > > With all the aoe and conditions in this game aegis is obsolete. > > > > > > What about those other pesky moves with stun/daze/blowback/pull/condi/etc? Barrier does not absorb those effects AFAIK. > > > > When being hit by 10 different things all the time its just luck if aegis blocks the "right" one and in a one on one situation the attacker can actually just spam the auto one more time before applying the cc. Its common knowledge that you never try to cc/burst a guardian with the first attack. > > > > And since there are stunbreakers, stability and resistance that are meant to deal with specific types of attacks aegis wasnt meant to block specific typs of attacks to begin with, other than big hits. > > > > The boon is obsolete due to how the game evolved. > > I was arguing the "only benefit aegis has over barrier" point. Either aegis cannot do what i describe or barrier can too. Ofc aegis CAN block a specific attack, the issue is that it wont 9 times out of 10 making the boon absolute trash other than traited for healing/damage. But that isnt a benfit, that is a different mechanic. In order for it to be be a benefit, the function has to be better and blocks are probably the worst way to avoid cc etc. If you have two skills it is not neccessary that making something work in a different way (aegis contra barrier) is a benefit as you put it. Making stuff in a different way can also be a drawback. In the aegis case there are no upsides except tratied heals and damage on aegis. Anet knows this and try to make up for it with FB that can apply 8 aegis just with fb skills/traits. Dont get me wrong i will stack aegis on my FB, i think i got 11 applications i can control and one that needs a downed team mate and with some healing power i will have roughly 12k of healing on my self and some on the team. I think that shows how bad anet thinks aegis is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahmia.2193 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Barrier to scourge seems a lot like stealth to thief. In that whilst other professions may have access to it or gain access to it as time progresses, it is a keystone part scourge and thief respectively. So Scourge will always have the most access barrier given that the spec has been designed around using it. Not that I'm against Guardian having access to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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