KryTiKaL.3125 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > Oh and one more thing, WHO USES IMMOBILIZE in 2019? > > > > > > Immobilize is actually obsolete compared to just doing non-CC dependent damage. > > > > > > Literally immob is so bad right now, flat out CC or easy to land damage is just better. You're saying you need to immob someone to escape? Really what is this 2013 where immobilize actually did something? > > > > Pulsating immobilizations guarantee kills, it can also force a condi cleanse which opens up a window for more damaging conditions. > > > > One of my favourite builds is Arcane Tempest, immobolising meteor showers can stack quite a bit of damage. > > Also most players are WAY faster at stunbreaking than cleansing immobilization. Like by a lot. People are trained once they see literally see all their skills go on cooldown to stunbreak immediately. They're always far slower on the cleanse when it comes to immobilization. > > > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > > That trait allows me to run Warrior builds that don’t use Sword or Greatsword. Like Axe/Axe-Rifle. Nerfing the trait would only push other weapons even further down than they already are. > > And it allows warrior builds that use Sword and Greatsword to be literaly the best builds in the game right now. > > > Like was mentioned earlier, you kite rampage like you do all stances. > The best spellbreaker builds aren't using stances. Rampage is a physical skill. Even without its damage rampage would still be problematic in terms of how well it allows warriors to disengage fights let alone its damage. > > > Warrior is the really the first class you should learn to beat in this game. In some ways it’s a litmus test before you can move on to other classes. > > > > Kite the Stances, and deny the burst. > > > > It doesn’t get any easier than that. > > Neither warrior, nor literally anything else in the game have remained stagnant. They have literally never been a "You must be this tall to PvP" threshold. Ever. > > It's just kind of funny how all those spellbreakers who had solid but not godly win ratios suddenly became near undefeated on 1v1 testing grounds post patch, and how suddenly the top 10 on NA went from being 5/10 boonbeasts to 5/10 spellbreaker mains at the drop of a balance patch. It's almost as if *gasp* spellbreaker is now the best build to play as it is both strong against everything in general and especially strong against FOTM scrappers. Stop. Talking. About. Top. Rankings. They don't mean *anything*. The Ranked leaderboards are a joke and have been a joke for a long time now due to certain individuals who I won't name and their wintrading/match manipulation. Look at the season before this recent one. That person had 3 spots in the top 5 and just as it has happened before they probably let some others into the top rankings for *payment*. Also you're complaining as a *Mirage*, when Mirage had the longest Dodge evade frame in the game until this recent patch and I highly doubt that Mirage players have adjusted to this yet. You could even see how accustomed to it they were even before that change when you would fight "top" ranked Mirages on anything other than Mirage. They fumbled about and got CC'd at the tail end of their dodges. I fought a Mirage that weird flexed at me in WvW about being Rank 250 on the Ranked leaderboards and they played like garbage. Especially when I asked them to swap to either Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are *not* weak) and they got caught after their dodge rolls nearly every time I wanted to catch them there because they completely wasted them or were not in any way used to the shorter evade frame. Just because this is happening to you and other Mirages now, of which I'm *so* shocked is happening ( /s ), does not mean that all of a sudden Warrior mobility is "too strong" or that it just always has been but its gone "under the radar". Sword 2 CC them out of it, GS5 CC them out of it even immob them in the middle of those animations because once the skill is used it doesn't clear immob. I have frequently used GS5 only to have an immob show up on me almost immediately after using the skill, or I've been CC'd during the animation. Listen, I'm there with you in agreement that a *lot* of people complained about the exact *wrong* things about Mirage and what was wrong with it. Axes of Symmetry, the damage, the chained evade defenses, whatever else. *Not* the problems. I only saw a couple of things as legitimate issues that just in general made Mirage an unhealthy class in PvP and that was limited to, in this order of priority, 1) Mirage Cloak needs to be unusable while CC'd (*No I don't mean Elusive Mind*) 2) Infinite Horizon needs an ICD of some sort because of the frequency/length of Mirage Cloak and that it makes a form of counterplay against Mesmers in general (i.e killing clones to deny shatters) one of the most frustrating experiences. That second one has been a little bit remedied due to the reduction on evade duration on Mirage Cloak, but I still think the first one needs to be addressed because its just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > Oh and one more thing, WHO USES IMMOBILIZE in 2019? > > > > > > > > Immobilize is actually obsolete compared to just doing non-CC dependent damage. > > > > > > > > Literally immob is so bad right now, flat out CC or easy to land damage is just better. You're saying you need to immob someone to escape? Really what is this 2013 where immobilize actually did something? > > > > > > Pulsating immobilizations guarantee kills, it can also force a condi cleanse which opens up a window for more damaging conditions. > > > > > > One of my favourite builds is Arcane Tempest, immobolising meteor showers can stack quite a bit of damage. > > > > Also most players are WAY faster at stunbreaking than cleansing immobilization. Like by a lot. People are trained once they see literally see all their skills go on cooldown to stunbreak immediately. They're always far slower on the cleanse when it comes to immobilization. > > > > > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > > > That trait allows me to run Warrior builds that don’t use Sword or Greatsword. Like Axe/Axe-Rifle. Nerfing the trait would only push other weapons even further down than they already are. > > > > And it allows warrior builds that use Sword and Greatsword to be literaly the best builds in the game right now. > > > > > Like was mentioned earlier, you kite rampage like you do all stances. > > The best spellbreaker builds aren't using stances. Rampage is a physical skill. Even without its damage rampage would still be problematic in terms of how well it allows warriors to disengage fights let alone its damage. > > > > > Warrior is the really the first class you should learn to beat in this game. In some ways it’s a litmus test before you can move on to other classes. > > > > > > Kite the Stances, and deny the burst. > > > > > > It doesn’t get any easier than that. > > > > Neither warrior, nor literally anything else in the game have remained stagnant. They have literally never been a "You must be this tall to PvP" threshold. Ever. > > > > It's just kind of funny how all those spellbreakers who had solid but not godly win ratios suddenly became near undefeated on 1v1 testing grounds post patch, and how suddenly the top 10 on NA went from being 5/10 boonbeasts to 5/10 spellbreaker mains at the drop of a balance patch. It's almost as if *gasp* spellbreaker is now the best build to play as it is both strong against everything in general and especially strong against FOTM scrappers. > > Stop. Talking. About. Top. Rankings. > > They don't mean *anything*. The Ranked leaderboards are a joke and have been a joke for a long time now due to certain individuals who I won't name and their wintrading/match manipulation. Look at the season before this recent one. That person had 3 spots in the top 5 and just as it has happened before they probably let some others into the top rankings for *payment*. > > Also you're complaining as a *Mirage*, when Mirage had the longest Dodge evade frame in the game until this recent patch and I highly doubt that Mirage players have adjusted to this yet. You could even see how accustomed to it they were even before that change when you would fight "top" ranked Mirages on anything other than Mirage. They fumbled about and got CC'd at the tail end of their dodges. > > I fought a Mirage that weird flexed at me in WvW about being Rank 250 on the Ranked leaderboards and they played like garbage. Especially when I asked them to swap to either Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are *not* weak) and they got caught after their dodge rolls nearly every time I wanted to catch them there because they completely wasted them or were not in any way used to the shorter evade frame. > > Just because this is happening to you and other Mirages now, of which I'm *so* shocked is happening ( /s ), does not mean that all of a sudden Warrior mobility is "too strong" or that it just always has been but its gone "under the radar". Sword 2 CC them out of it, GS5 CC them out of it even immob them in the middle of those animations because once the skill is used it doesn't clear immob. I have frequently used GS5 only to have an immob show up on me almost immediately after using the skill, or I've been CC'd during the animation. > > Listen, I'm there with you in agreement that a *lot* of people complained about the exact *wrong* things about Mirage and what was wrong with it. Axes of Symmetry, the damage, the chained evade defenses, whatever else. *Not* the problems. I only saw a couple of things as legitimate issues that just in general made Mirage an unhealthy class in PvP and that was limited to, in this order of priority, 1) Mirage Cloak needs to be unusable while CC'd (*No I don't mean Elusive Mind*) 2) Infinite Horizon needs an ICD of some sort because of the frequency/length of Mirage Cloak and that it makes a form of counterplay against Mesmers in general (i.e killing clones to deny shatters) one of the most frustrating experiences. > > That second one has been a little bit remedied due to the reduction on evade duration on Mirage Cloak, but I still think the first one needs to be addressed because its just silly. Tbf, he also talked about 1v1, not just rank. "Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are not weak)" Just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > And on another note @Quadox.7834 can you drop the mesmererer with the AI help and UI fights and make a useful Berserker build that is my challenge to you, just to give you some perspective. In what universe does this have anything to do with the complaints in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > Oh and one more thing, WHO USES IMMOBILIZE in 2019? > > > > > > > > > > Immobilize is actually obsolete compared to just doing non-CC dependent damage. > > > > > > > > > > Literally immob is so bad right now, flat out CC or easy to land damage is just better. You're saying you need to immob someone to escape? Really what is this 2013 where immobilize actually did something? > > > > > > > > Pulsating immobilizations guarantee kills, it can also force a condi cleanse which opens up a window for more damaging conditions. > > > > > > > > One of my favourite builds is Arcane Tempest, immobolising meteor showers can stack quite a bit of damage. > > > > > > Also most players are WAY faster at stunbreaking than cleansing immobilization. Like by a lot. People are trained once they see literally see all their skills go on cooldown to stunbreak immediately. They're always far slower on the cleanse when it comes to immobilization. > > > > > > > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > > > > That trait allows me to run Warrior builds that don’t use Sword or Greatsword. Like Axe/Axe-Rifle. Nerfing the trait would only push other weapons even further down than they already are. > > > > > > And it allows warrior builds that use Sword and Greatsword to be literaly the best builds in the game right now. > > > > > > > Like was mentioned earlier, you kite rampage like you do all stances. > > > The best spellbreaker builds aren't using stances. Rampage is a physical skill. Even without its damage rampage would still be problematic in terms of how well it allows warriors to disengage fights let alone its damage. > > > > > > > Warrior is the really the first class you should learn to beat in this game. In some ways it’s a litmus test before you can move on to other classes. > > > > > > > > Kite the Stances, and deny the burst. > > > > > > > > It doesn’t get any easier than that. > > > > > > Neither warrior, nor literally anything else in the game have remained stagnant. They have literally never been a "You must be this tall to PvP" threshold. Ever. > > > > > > It's just kind of funny how all those spellbreakers who had solid but not godly win ratios suddenly became near undefeated on 1v1 testing grounds post patch, and how suddenly the top 10 on NA went from being 5/10 boonbeasts to 5/10 spellbreaker mains at the drop of a balance patch. It's almost as if *gasp* spellbreaker is now the best build to play as it is both strong against everything in general and especially strong against FOTM scrappers. > > > > Stop. Talking. About. Top. Rankings. > > > > They don't mean *anything*. The Ranked leaderboards are a joke and have been a joke for a long time now due to certain individuals who I won't name and their wintrading/match manipulation. Look at the season before this recent one. That person had 3 spots in the top 5 and just as it has happened before they probably let some others into the top rankings for *payment*. > > > > Also you're complaining as a *Mirage*, when Mirage had the longest Dodge evade frame in the game until this recent patch and I highly doubt that Mirage players have adjusted to this yet. You could even see how accustomed to it they were even before that change when you would fight "top" ranked Mirages on anything other than Mirage. They fumbled about and got CC'd at the tail end of their dodges. > > > > I fought a Mirage that weird flexed at me in WvW about being Rank 250 on the Ranked leaderboards and they played like garbage. Especially when I asked them to swap to either Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are *not* weak) and they got caught after their dodge rolls nearly every time I wanted to catch them there because they completely wasted them or were not in any way used to the shorter evade frame. > > > > Just because this is happening to you and other Mirages now, of which I'm *so* shocked is happening ( /s ), does not mean that all of a sudden Warrior mobility is "too strong" or that it just always has been but its gone "under the radar". Sword 2 CC them out of it, GS5 CC them out of it even immob them in the middle of those animations because once the skill is used it doesn't clear immob. I have frequently used GS5 only to have an immob show up on me almost immediately after using the skill, or I've been CC'd during the animation. > > > > Listen, I'm there with you in agreement that a *lot* of people complained about the exact *wrong* things about Mirage and what was wrong with it. Axes of Symmetry, the damage, the chained evade defenses, whatever else. *Not* the problems. I only saw a couple of things as legitimate issues that just in general made Mirage an unhealthy class in PvP and that was limited to, in this order of priority, 1) Mirage Cloak needs to be unusable while CC'd (*No I don't mean Elusive Mind*) 2) Infinite Horizon needs an ICD of some sort because of the frequency/length of Mirage Cloak and that it makes a form of counterplay against Mesmers in general (i.e killing clones to deny shatters) one of the most frustrating experiences. > > > > That second one has been a little bit remedied due to the reduction on evade duration on Mirage Cloak, but I still think the first one needs to be addressed because its just silly. > > Tbf, he also talked about 1v1, not just rank. > > "Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are not weak)" > Just wrong. They aren't weak. They are much less useful in sPvP just due to Mirage, but I think Chrono has been making a slight comeback as a bunker. Otherwise I was more referring to the individual circumstance of that one Mirage in which those fights happened in WvW where Core Mesmer is not gimped by the necessity to contest or capture those tiny capture points. Trust me, Core and Chronomancer aren't as terrible as people, or some other Mesmers, might think. In the sPvP space sure because the meta, by necessity, is dominated by builds that can more easily "cheese" the concept of Conquest as a game mode, which tbh is silly and I don't like that, it doesn't allow for much diversity. Core Mesmer has a harder time doing that, but take that out and Core Mesmer can actually be just as strong as Mirage. Mirage just happened to be a carry spec for a *lot* of people so switching off of it meant they had to readjust their entire thinking unless they were already more than just proficient with Core and Chrono. This was mostly due to Mirage having the longer evade, which as you see now after the nerf to literally bring it in line with all other dodges that Mirages are now thrown completely off and haven't adjusted yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 warrior cripple trait replaces warrior sprint warrior now has permanent cripple, and leaps and movement skills now get range reduction based on what condition they have. chill causes bull charge etc to move 66% shorter. oh, and rampage is now not a physical skill anymore..and cooldown 180 seconds. oh, oh!! and fullcounter is now 30 second cooldown, with another damage nerf and daze is also reduced by 50% oh, oh,oh!!!! might makes right heals now for a fixed amount (like mesmer healing prism) on a 10 second icd now, core war and spellbreaker can sit next to berserker on the fat-kid-bench because no sport team picked them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > Oh and one more thing, WHO USES IMMOBILIZE in 2019? > > > > > > > > > > > > Immobilize is actually obsolete compared to just doing non-CC dependent damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally immob is so bad right now, flat out CC or easy to land damage is just better. You're saying you need to immob someone to escape? Really what is this 2013 where immobilize actually did something? > > > > > > > > > > Pulsating immobilizations guarantee kills, it can also force a condi cleanse which opens up a window for more damaging conditions. > > > > > > > > > > One of my favourite builds is Arcane Tempest, immobolising meteor showers can stack quite a bit of damage. > > > > > > > > Also most players are WAY faster at stunbreaking than cleansing immobilization. Like by a lot. People are trained once they see literally see all their skills go on cooldown to stunbreak immediately. They're always far slower on the cleanse when it comes to immobilization. > > > > > > > > > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > > > > > That trait allows me to run Warrior builds that don’t use Sword or Greatsword. Like Axe/Axe-Rifle. Nerfing the trait would only push other weapons even further down than they already are. > > > > > > > > And it allows warrior builds that use Sword and Greatsword to be literaly the best builds in the game right now. > > > > > > > > > Like was mentioned earlier, you kite rampage like you do all stances. > > > > The best spellbreaker builds aren't using stances. Rampage is a physical skill. Even without its damage rampage would still be problematic in terms of how well it allows warriors to disengage fights let alone its damage. > > > > > > > > > Warrior is the really the first class you should learn to beat in this game. In some ways it’s a litmus test before you can move on to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > Kite the Stances, and deny the burst. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t get any easier than that. > > > > > > > > Neither warrior, nor literally anything else in the game have remained stagnant. They have literally never been a "You must be this tall to PvP" threshold. Ever. > > > > > > > > It's just kind of funny how all those spellbreakers who had solid but not godly win ratios suddenly became near undefeated on 1v1 testing grounds post patch, and how suddenly the top 10 on NA went from being 5/10 boonbeasts to 5/10 spellbreaker mains at the drop of a balance patch. It's almost as if *gasp* spellbreaker is now the best build to play as it is both strong against everything in general and especially strong against FOTM scrappers. > > > > > > Stop. Talking. About. Top. Rankings. > > > > > > They don't mean *anything*. The Ranked leaderboards are a joke and have been a joke for a long time now due to certain individuals who I won't name and their wintrading/match manipulation. Look at the season before this recent one. That person had 3 spots in the top 5 and just as it has happened before they probably let some others into the top rankings for *payment*. > > > > > > Also you're complaining as a *Mirage*, when Mirage had the longest Dodge evade frame in the game until this recent patch and I highly doubt that Mirage players have adjusted to this yet. You could even see how accustomed to it they were even before that change when you would fight "top" ranked Mirages on anything other than Mirage. They fumbled about and got CC'd at the tail end of their dodges. > > > > > > I fought a Mirage that weird flexed at me in WvW about being Rank 250 on the Ranked leaderboards and they played like garbage. Especially when I asked them to swap to either Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are *not* weak) and they got caught after their dodge rolls nearly every time I wanted to catch them there because they completely wasted them or were not in any way used to the shorter evade frame. > > > > > > Just because this is happening to you and other Mirages now, of which I'm *so* shocked is happening ( /s ), does not mean that all of a sudden Warrior mobility is "too strong" or that it just always has been but its gone "under the radar". Sword 2 CC them out of it, GS5 CC them out of it even immob them in the middle of those animations because once the skill is used it doesn't clear immob. I have frequently used GS5 only to have an immob show up on me almost immediately after using the skill, or I've been CC'd during the animation. > > > > > > Listen, I'm there with you in agreement that a *lot* of people complained about the exact *wrong* things about Mirage and what was wrong with it. Axes of Symmetry, the damage, the chained evade defenses, whatever else. *Not* the problems. I only saw a couple of things as legitimate issues that just in general made Mirage an unhealthy class in PvP and that was limited to, in this order of priority, 1) Mirage Cloak needs to be unusable while CC'd (*No I don't mean Elusive Mind*) 2) Infinite Horizon needs an ICD of some sort because of the frequency/length of Mirage Cloak and that it makes a form of counterplay against Mesmers in general (i.e killing clones to deny shatters) one of the most frustrating experiences. > > > > > > That second one has been a little bit remedied due to the reduction on evade duration on Mirage Cloak, but I still think the first one needs to be addressed because its just silly. > > > > Tbf, he also talked about 1v1, not just rank. > > > > "Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are not weak)" > > Just wrong. > > They aren't weak. They are much less useful in sPvP just due to Mirage, but I think Chrono has been making a slight comeback as a bunker. Otherwise I was more referring to the individual circumstance of that one Mirage in which those fights happened in WvW where Core Mesmer is not kitten by the necessity to contest or capture those tiny capture points. > > Trust me, Core and Chronomancer aren't as terrible as people, or some other Mesmers, might think. In the sPvP space sure because the meta, by necessity, is dominated by builds that can more easily "cheese" the concept of Conquest as a game mode, which tbh is silly and I don't like that, it doesn't allow for much diversity. Core Mesmer has a harder time doing that, but take that out and Core Mesmer can actually be just as strong as Mirage. Mirage just happened to be a carry spec for a *lot* of people so switching off of it meant they had to readjust their entire thinking unless they were already more than just proficient with Core and Chrono. This was mostly due to Mirage having the longer evade, which as you see now after the nerf to literally bring it in line with all other dodges that Mirages are now thrown completely off and haven't adjusted yet. Can you guys do a snippet or somethin please? so many pings to this thread lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > Oh and one more thing, WHO USES IMMOBILIZE in 2019? > > > > > > > > > > > > Immobilize is actually obsolete compared to just doing non-CC dependent damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally immob is so bad right now, flat out CC or easy to land damage is just better. You're saying you need to immob someone to escape? Really what is this 2013 where immobilize actually did something? > > > > > > > > > > Pulsating immobilizations guarantee kills, it can also force a condi cleanse which opens up a window for more damaging conditions. > > > > > > > > > > One of my favourite builds is Arcane Tempest, immobolising meteor showers can stack quite a bit of damage. > > > > > > > > Also most players are WAY faster at stunbreaking than cleansing immobilization. Like by a lot. People are trained once they see literally see all their skills go on cooldown to stunbreak immediately. They're always far slower on the cleanse when it comes to immobilization. > > > > > > > > > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > > > > > That trait allows me to run Warrior builds that don’t use Sword or Greatsword. Like Axe/Axe-Rifle. Nerfing the trait would only push other weapons even further down than they already are. > > > > > > > > And it allows warrior builds that use Sword and Greatsword to be literaly the best builds in the game right now. > > > > > > > > > Like was mentioned earlier, you kite rampage like you do all stances. > > > > The best spellbreaker builds aren't using stances. Rampage is a physical skill. Even without its damage rampage would still be problematic in terms of how well it allows warriors to disengage fights let alone its damage. > > > > > > > > > Warrior is the really the first class you should learn to beat in this game. In some ways it’s a litmus test before you can move on to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > Kite the Stances, and deny the burst. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t get any easier than that. > > > > > > > > Neither warrior, nor literally anything else in the game have remained stagnant. They have literally never been a "You must be this tall to PvP" threshold. Ever. > > > > > > > > It's just kind of funny how all those spellbreakers who had solid but not godly win ratios suddenly became near undefeated on 1v1 testing grounds post patch, and how suddenly the top 10 on NA went from being 5/10 boonbeasts to 5/10 spellbreaker mains at the drop of a balance patch. It's almost as if *gasp* spellbreaker is now the best build to play as it is both strong against everything in general and especially strong against FOTM scrappers. > > > > > > Stop. Talking. About. Top. Rankings. > > > > > > They don't mean *anything*. The Ranked leaderboards are a joke and have been a joke for a long time now due to certain individuals who I won't name and their wintrading/match manipulation. Look at the season before this recent one. That person had 3 spots in the top 5 and just as it has happened before they probably let some others into the top rankings for *payment*. > > > > > > Also you're complaining as a *Mirage*, when Mirage had the longest Dodge evade frame in the game until this recent patch and I highly doubt that Mirage players have adjusted to this yet. You could even see how accustomed to it they were even before that change when you would fight "top" ranked Mirages on anything other than Mirage. They fumbled about and got CC'd at the tail end of their dodges. > > > > > > I fought a Mirage that weird flexed at me in WvW about being Rank 250 on the Ranked leaderboards and they played like garbage. Especially when I asked them to swap to either Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are *not* weak) and they got caught after their dodge rolls nearly every time I wanted to catch them there because they completely wasted them or were not in any way used to the shorter evade frame. > > > > > > Just because this is happening to you and other Mirages now, of which I'm *so* shocked is happening ( /s ), does not mean that all of a sudden Warrior mobility is "too strong" or that it just always has been but its gone "under the radar". Sword 2 CC them out of it, GS5 CC them out of it even immob them in the middle of those animations because once the skill is used it doesn't clear immob. I have frequently used GS5 only to have an immob show up on me almost immediately after using the skill, or I've been CC'd during the animation. > > > > > > Listen, I'm there with you in agreement that a *lot* of people complained about the exact *wrong* things about Mirage and what was wrong with it. Axes of Symmetry, the damage, the chained evade defenses, whatever else. *Not* the problems. I only saw a couple of things as legitimate issues that just in general made Mirage an unhealthy class in PvP and that was limited to, in this order of priority, 1) Mirage Cloak needs to be unusable while CC'd (*No I don't mean Elusive Mind*) 2) Infinite Horizon needs an ICD of some sort because of the frequency/length of Mirage Cloak and that it makes a form of counterplay against Mesmers in general (i.e killing clones to deny shatters) one of the most frustrating experiences. > > > > > > That second one has been a little bit remedied due to the reduction on evade duration on Mirage Cloak, but I still think the first one needs to be addressed because its just silly. > > > > Tbf, he also talked about 1v1, not just rank. > > > > "Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are not weak)" > > Just wrong. > > They aren't weak. They are much less useful in sPvP just due to Mirage, but I think Chrono has been making a slight comeback as a bunker. Otherwise I was more referring to the individual circumstance of that one Mirage in which those fights happened in WvW where Core Mesmer is not kitten by the necessity to contest or capture those tiny capture points. > > Trust me, Core and Chronomancer aren't as terrible as people, or some other Mesmers, might think. In the sPvP space sure because the meta, by necessity, is dominated by builds that can more easily "cheese" the concept of Conquest as a game mode, which tbh is silly and I don't like that, it doesn't allow for much diversity. Core Mesmer has a harder time doing that, but take that out and Core Mesmer can actually be just as strong as Mirage. Mirage just happened to be a carry spec for a *lot* of people so switching off of it meant they had to readjust their entire thinking unless they were already more than just proficient with Core and Chrono. This was mostly due to Mirage having the longer evade, which as you see now after the nerf to literally bring it in line with all other dodges that Mirages are now thrown completely off and haven't adjusted yet. Chronobunker is going to emerge as the best mesmer build post condition mirage nerf in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 yeah give them 4 seconds of exhaustion when they remove immobile just like [unhindered Combatant](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > Oh and one more thing, WHO USES IMMOBILIZE in 2019? > > > > > > > > > > > > Immobilize is actually obsolete compared to just doing non-CC dependent damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally immob is so bad right now, flat out CC or easy to land damage is just better. You're saying you need to immob someone to escape? Really what is this 2013 where immobilize actually did something? > > > > > > > > > > Pulsating immobilizations guarantee kills, it can also force a condi cleanse which opens up a window for more damaging conditions. > > > > > > > > > > One of my favourite builds is Arcane Tempest, immobolising meteor showers can stack quite a bit of damage. > > > > > > > > Also most players are WAY faster at stunbreaking than cleansing immobilization. Like by a lot. People are trained once they see literally see all their skills go on cooldown to stunbreak immediately. They're always far slower on the cleanse when it comes to immobilization. > > > > > > > > > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > > > > > That trait allows me to run Warrior builds that don’t use Sword or Greatsword. Like Axe/Axe-Rifle. Nerfing the trait would only push other weapons even further down than they already are. > > > > > > > > And it allows warrior builds that use Sword and Greatsword to be literaly the best builds in the game right now. > > > > > > > > > Like was mentioned earlier, you kite rampage like you do all stances. > > > > The best spellbreaker builds aren't using stances. Rampage is a physical skill. Even without its damage rampage would still be problematic in terms of how well it allows warriors to disengage fights let alone its damage. > > > > > > > > > Warrior is the really the first class you should learn to beat in this game. In some ways it’s a litmus test before you can move on to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > Kite the Stances, and deny the burst. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t get any easier than that. > > > > > > > > Neither warrior, nor literally anything else in the game have remained stagnant. They have literally never been a "You must be this tall to PvP" threshold. Ever. > > > > > > > > It's just kind of funny how all those spellbreakers who had solid but not godly win ratios suddenly became near undefeated on 1v1 testing grounds post patch, and how suddenly the top 10 on NA went from being 5/10 boonbeasts to 5/10 spellbreaker mains at the drop of a balance patch. It's almost as if *gasp* spellbreaker is now the best build to play as it is both strong against everything in general and especially strong against FOTM scrappers. > > > > > > Stop. Talking. About. Top. Rankings. > > > > > > They don't mean *anything*. The Ranked leaderboards are a joke and have been a joke for a long time now due to certain individuals who I won't name and their wintrading/match manipulation. Look at the season before this recent one. That person had 3 spots in the top 5 and just as it has happened before they probably let some others into the top rankings for *payment*. > > > > > > Also you're complaining as a *Mirage*, when Mirage had the longest Dodge evade frame in the game until this recent patch and I highly doubt that Mirage players have adjusted to this yet. You could even see how accustomed to it they were even before that change when you would fight "top" ranked Mirages on anything other than Mirage. They fumbled about and got CC'd at the tail end of their dodges. > > > > > > I fought a Mirage that weird flexed at me in WvW about being Rank 250 on the Ranked leaderboards and they played like garbage. Especially when I asked them to swap to either Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are *not* weak) and they got caught after their dodge rolls nearly every time I wanted to catch them there because they completely wasted them or were not in any way used to the shorter evade frame. > > > > > > Just because this is happening to you and other Mirages now, of which I'm *so* shocked is happening ( /s ), does not mean that all of a sudden Warrior mobility is "too strong" or that it just always has been but its gone "under the radar". Sword 2 CC them out of it, GS5 CC them out of it even immob them in the middle of those animations because once the skill is used it doesn't clear immob. I have frequently used GS5 only to have an immob show up on me almost immediately after using the skill, or I've been CC'd during the animation. > > > > > > Listen, I'm there with you in agreement that a *lot* of people complained about the exact *wrong* things about Mirage and what was wrong with it. Axes of Symmetry, the damage, the chained evade defenses, whatever else. *Not* the problems. I only saw a couple of things as legitimate issues that just in general made Mirage an unhealthy class in PvP and that was limited to, in this order of priority, 1) Mirage Cloak needs to be unusable while CC'd (*No I don't mean Elusive Mind*) 2) Infinite Horizon needs an ICD of some sort because of the frequency/length of Mirage Cloak and that it makes a form of counterplay against Mesmers in general (i.e killing clones to deny shatters) one of the most frustrating experiences. > > > > > > That second one has been a little bit remedied due to the reduction on evade duration on Mirage Cloak, but I still think the first one needs to be addressed because its just silly. > > > > Tbf, he also talked about 1v1, not just rank. > > > > "Core Mesmer or Chronomancer (which are not weak)" > > Just wrong. > > They aren't weak. They are much less useful in sPvP just due to Mirage, but I think Chrono has been making a slight comeback as a bunker. Otherwise I was more referring to the individual circumstance of that one Mirage in which those fights happened in WvW where Core Mesmer is not kitten by the necessity to contest or capture those tiny capture points. > > Trust me, Core and Chronomancer aren't as terrible as people, or some other Mesmers, might think. In the sPvP space sure because the meta, by necessity, is dominated by builds that can more easily "cheese" the concept of Conquest as a game mode, which tbh is silly and I don't like that, it doesn't allow for much diversity. Core Mesmer has a harder time doing that, but take that out and Core Mesmer can actually be just as strong as Mirage. Mirage just happened to be a carry spec for a *lot* of people so switching off of it meant they had to readjust their entire thinking unless they were already more than just proficient with Core and Chrono. This was mostly due to Mirage having the longer evade, which as you see now after the nerf to literally bring it in line with all other dodges that Mirages are now thrown completely off and haven't adjusted yet. Sorry, I was unclear. Chrono is abolutely good. Core is very bad. I would like to ask which kinds builds you are talking about, condi? In that case, sure, you can make a meme 1v1 build with scepter but it will be trash for real PvP. Of course, all this presupposes discussing balance in a relative sense. In an absolute terms I think even core Mesmer is way overtuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorQ.7041 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Mbelch.9028" said: > > @"Punny.9210" said: > > wow this forum is full of goldies huh > > > > anyone on high tier know there is something need to be done to the braindead rampage. > > > > for me i can take the dmg > > Don't nerf a trait because of an elite. Nerf the elite. This garbage philosophy is what ruins builds and classes in the long run. Agreed. Best comment in this section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punny.9210 Posted March 25, 2019 Author Share Posted March 25, 2019 wow for a long thread finally i found someone with an actual brain > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punny.9210 Posted March 25, 2019 Author Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). idk what tier you are but if u get kited in spvp as warrior u have a big issue man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Punny.9210" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. > > > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. > > > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. > > > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. > > > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). > > idk what tier you are > > but if u get kited in spvp as warrior > > u have a big issue man > > Nope, you're the one who is bronze. I dare you to play Warrior vs. top players. Nice feelings based arguments though, coming from a bronzie who CANT KITE RAMPAGE LOL The "fact" that you're trying to immobilize rampage to try to "counter it" makes you the inferior player. Don't go around deflecting like "u hab big issue hurr durr" when you're using immobilize to counter something that doesn't need to be immobed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. It wasn't really a comparision, as I didn't talk about their comparative strengths. > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. The cooldowns are very short. I generally dislike icds, at least as long as we don't have icds visible on the UI. > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. Yeah, that's what I said about daze. > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. Of course. > It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. Fact is there were more dodges and less defensive options from traits, in addition there are many powercrept skills. Examples of such traits on mesmer is evasive mirror and blinding dissipation. > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. That is exactly what I am saying though. The trait exists because of the availablility of immobilise on some builds, and vice versa. (you bring up druid as an example). Not saying that Anet implemented warrior's sprint as a direct reaction to druid, rather that powercreep in one area necessitates/causes powercreep in another. What I mean by the lower efficacy of immobilise is that the value of *a single* immobilise is lower, i.e. you get less value from hitting net shot, illusionary leap, or pindown. This is irrespective of how "spammable" immobilise is on certain specs. In a better timeline, I don't think warrior's sprint *or* spammable immobilse (for example chaotic interruption) should exist. > You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelch.9028 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > Savage Leap: 600 Units > Whirlwind Attack: 450 Units > Rush: 1200 Units > Bull's Charge: 900 Units > Seismic Leap: 600 Units > Dash: 1000 Units > Whirlwind Attack: 450 Units > Savage Leap: 600 Units > > = 5,800 units of movement in about 10 seconds. > >...... > All of these warrior skills are going to ignore movement impairing effects like chill and cripple by their nature as movement skills, and with Warrior's Sprint they're breaking immobilization every time. Heck DP Daredevil has to eat Exhausting for 4 seconds when it breaks immobilization. > > When people hated on the original Sword+Torch / Staff Ineptitude Condition Mirage Builds because they were too capable of disengaging while being one of the best 1v1 specs they had about 4,950 units of disengage. > > Phase Retreat: 600 Units > Sword Ambush: 600 Units > Sword Ambush: 600 Units > Distortion Sword Ambush with Desert Distortion: 600 Units > Blink: 1200 > Jaunt X 3: 1350 > > =4,950 units of movement speed. > Nice of you to put every single movement skill in a warrior's kit (if they're using a sword, which MOST do not). I'm assuming we're comparing ability to get to a point at the start of a match, because if you're trying to disengage from a fight, nearly none of what you typed is realistic. In a race to the first to a point, I totally agree, Warrior has top tier mobility. But it can't fight a clean fight thereafter. Especially after blowing a 72-second cooldown skill for two bits of mobility (1600 units). The reality is that every skill you mentioned in a warrior's kit is used to... do damage or gap close. If a warrior can't get to its target, it's a sitting duck, and it's useless/dead. If a warrior can't do damage, it's a sitting duck, and it's useless/dead. It may be shocking for a mesmer to learn, I know, but whereas all of the skills you listed for mesmer are used to disengage or in a rare scenario gap close, a Warrior doesn't have the luxury of ports (half of what you listed) nor does it have the luxury of clones or stealth. Warriors have no skills that are purely designed for fleeing, perhaps outside of Savage Leap, which I already established is not really used in the meta right now. I'm going to say it again. Warriors need these skills you've mentioned to be effective in any way. To summarize. In a fight, all of these skills are being used in fights to do damage or catch up to slippery opponents (like Mesmers using a sword ambush, jaunt or blink) and aren't readily available if a fight turns south. If a fight does turn south, sure, some of these will be available, but an escape is just as likely on warrior as it is on any other class, because of the following.... * Chill * Cripple * Torment * Intelligently timed immobilizes (shocker, yes, these still immob warriors if they don't have a gap-close skill available, or if they're running a build without Warrior's sprint) * Dazes * Stuns * Knockdowns If you want to compare apples and oranges, go for it, but rather than continuing to cry because Mirage got an evade nerf, play another class and see how well you do on it. Guarantee you're not going to excel on a warrior if you're currently struggling on a mirage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bish.8627 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Warriors have been nerfed to the ground, they weren't even OP after the first round of nerfs including the first Full counter nerf. Leave them as they are. I would guess those who stuck with warrior have a lot of hours under it, and all the "life long" Mesmers and Holo's that can't beat them with cheese builds hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Practice makes perfect berserker played the same before, core and spellbreaker are basically the same build GS off hand shield and whatever MH weapon you feel you like that day and the best defensive utility you can get ATM and you go side node, you can get cheeky and pick off somebody that stays to the side but you never go close to the pixel explosion then after everything is on cooldown whirlwind rush and hope you don't have torment on you and nobody decided to shoot you in the back (them ranger and thieves man). The meta build with the sword is trying to be worse rev or thief from what i can see, and if that is the purpose of it but you don't want to be that squishy you should probably go for holosmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Punny.9210" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. > > > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. > > > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. > > > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. > > > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). > > idk what tier you are > > but if u get kited in spvp as warrior > > u have a big issue man > > You're cute. > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. > It wasn't really a comparision, as I didn't talk about their comparative strengths. > > > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. > The cooldowns are very short. I generally dislike icds, at least as long as we don't have icds visible on the UI. > > > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. > Yeah, that's what I said about daze. > > > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. > Of course. > > It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. > Fact is there were more dodges and less defensive options from traits, in addition there are many powercrept skills. Examples of such traits on mesmer is evasive mirror and blinding dissipation. > > > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. > That is exactly what I am saying though. The trait exists because of the availablility of immobilise on some builds, and vice versa. (you bring up druid as an example). Not saying that Anet implemented warrior's sprint as a direct reaction to druid, rather that powercreep in one area necessitates/causes powercreep in another. > > What I mean by the lower efficacy of immobilise is that the value of *a single* immobilise is lower, i.e. you get less value from hitting net shot, illusionary leap, or pindown. This is irrespective of how "spammable" immobilise is on certain specs. In a better timeline, I don't think warrior's sprint *or* spammable immobilse (for example chaotic interruption) should exist. > > You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). You very much did compare them as you stated they both "remove immobilize without investment" which is wrong on both counts, but in regards to Daredevil they would have been investing less due to the availability of their dodges due to the aforementioned reasons. I do agree that ICDs should probably get a place on the UI as that information would be very helpful and a definite QoL change and would probably stop people from whining about "passive defenses" even though they can already be easily timed around if you're competent. Even an action based combat system like in Black Desert Online has ICDs for skills that are spammable or frequent. There are many skills across all classes that are spammable and still useable while on cooldown but they lose their additional effects while used on cooldown. Either losing its ability to CC or apply a debuff or lose a defensive bonus like SA (Super Armor: makes you immune to CCs other than grabs during a skills animation). ICDs on traits help to balance out bonus effects that end up strengthening a skills base effects unless their is already a cooldown associated with those skills, which Warrior's Sprint is tied to. That is why things like Infinite Horizon, due to the frequency of Mirage Cloak, need some sort of ICD otherwise it removes en element of counterplay. Similarly to Elusive Mind, that trait needed an ICD and not a new status effect that effectively nerfed the trait into the ground. Unhindered Combatant could've benefited more from an ICD and not the Exhaustion effect to still keep it useful but make it more balanced in gameplay. Again though I do agree that we should be able to see our own ICDs on the screen so that we know what is or isn't available. As for there having been less defensive traits earlier on, you're not wrong but the trait system also worked differently for the first year or so of the game. The shift into the system we have had since Pre-HoT changed up the kinds of builds that could be made and what builds did. If this were a more action oriented combat system I would say they could shift away from this system into something better but the fact remains that GW2 still has a "light" tab target system and because of that "passive" or trait related defenses exist. Going back to a previous comparison, if this were BDO the defenses one uses would be far more "active" because that is an entirely action based combat system and avoiding CC is almost entirely dependent on SA, invincibility frames, guards and movement. Personally I use the action camera because thats just something I became accustomed to and prefer due to my time on BDO but despite that skills will still seek their target because a majority of players still use the regular camera. In GW2 I would argue that dodging tends to be more important than other defenses in the game even now because if you use a dodge for nothing then the enemy gets the advantage but if you manage to dodge a CC that means a stunbreak that you don't have to use, if you dodge a hard hitting skill that means you won't need to use a heal or other defensive CD that otherwise would have been used. So far you haven't convinced me that Warrior's Sprint is unhealthy for the game, even if they addressed the frequency of immobilize on some classes, that would still leave some immobs and they would be akin to a hard CC for any melee class should effects like Warrior's Sprint have their immob cleanse removed. Like I detailed in my previous post, a typical 2 CC chain from Holosmith (Forge 3 > Forge 5(CC) > Forge 4 > Prime Light Beam(CC) > dodge > Forge 2) would turn into a 3 CC chain (Rife 2 > Forge 3 > Forge 5(CC) > Forge 4 > Prime Light Beam(CC) > dodge > Forge 2) against melee classes that a holo could do, mind you, well outside of melee distance. This is just an example but there are for sure others that would appear due to a change like that and you think there is powercrept CC *now*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Warrior sprint getting an ICD would be a shave, but pandering to garbage arguments and bronze level players won't get us anywhere. Here is the catch, Immobilize is just USELESS. It's good vs. bad players but it is legit the most useless condition now in the game when some classes have like 33% slow reduction on their traits. You can nerf Warrior Sprint but still get trolled by Dogged March for example. And there are negative duration condition food on WvW (pultry leak soup) Hard CC is better, boon corruption is better, flat out killing the Warrior is better. Don't nerf something because you're using an underpowered condition to counter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > Here is the catch, Immobilize is just USELESS. This. I will now ignore the above quote to stipulate that if you want to nerf warrior sprint by having it counter one condition, you should make warriors faster across the board so they can punish people for not using immobilize or whiffing it. It's just a weird thing to want nerfed imo. I'm really happy that we're down to splitting hairs about warrior and not on the "HeALiNg SiGNeT Op" bullkitten though. Just make sure you balance us by giving us something more skillful! I already have issues catching kites. Also. >@"Punny.9210" said: > it would be nice if this gets a very minor tone down on " Movement skills break immobilization when used " > @"Punny.9210" said: > wow this forum is full of goldies huh  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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