Core necro is the posterchild for one of PvPs most pervasive issues

[Ovark.2514]

Lack of Adequate Tells and Instant Casts.

 

Doom is the most egregious offender. This is a CC that can be as long as 3 seconds that has no projectile or tell and can be cast at 1200 range instantly even while you are CC'd. People are upset sometimes that not enough core professions make their way into ranked. Well in the necros case, thank god.

 

Tainted Shackles: There is really no tell on this and it has too short a cast time for being the #5 Skill. This skill should probably be improved to compensate for gaining 1/2sec longer cast and an obvious wind-up animation. Since the strongest part of this skill is the Reveal, I'd say have the reveal last much longer if it removes a foe from stealth.

 

Chillblains, Putrid Mark, and Reaper's Mark: These skills are very important to dodge depending on the situation (Fear is always important to avoid). As it stands, although these skills have a long enough cast time, they don't have a distinctive enough animation so that players can know from the very begging of the animation if they need to be dodging in a split second and almost more importantly, WHERE.

 

Chill of Death: This skill is an suto-proc so it's automatically a bad idea, but because it has boon removal on it, it needs an activation time and tell. My best recommendation is to scrap this trait and make a new one. How about something like: Applying Chill to a foe below 50% hp deals 300 damage.

 

Death Shroud is an issue because it can be combined with Weakening Shroud. Boon corrupt is very strong and needs a tell and animation. Entering death shroud needs these things if traits such as Weakening Shroud are to be a in the game. Yes Foot in the Grave may need to be improved to compensate for this loss but I think necro will be in a much better place in the future if devs are given the comfort of knowing that they can have potentially brutal shroud-activation traits. Alternatively, Weakening Shroud can simply apply the cast time+tell to the shroud by itself. I think 1/2 sec cast and an obvious tell would be sufficient.

 

I hope the Necro players will give these suggestions some consideration and not immediately claim that I'm proposing to nerf necro into complete uselessness. These thoughts are coming from someone who has played since launch and has at least decent reaction time.

[Swagg.9236]

While you are correct, unfortunately, nobody is going to be on your side for this because everyone is crying too loudly about how there are already other builds which are worse offenders than even core necro. Not only do they operate outside of the restrictions of projectile travel, positioning and timing, but they also do so while inflicting far, far more damage than core necro could ever dream of matching.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> While you are correct, unfortunately, nobody is going to be on your side for this because everyone is crying too loudly about how the other builds which are even worse than core necro because not only do they operate outside of the restrictions of projectile travel, positioning and timing, but they also do so while inflicting far, far more damage than core necro could ever dream of matching.

 

Totally true!! Necromancer do have plenty of valid reasons to feel this way though as some examples you stated

 

(On the side note; if i may add )by Kroof

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

While Necros do have a good amount of instant cast, at least they're not evade spam classes like Ranger or Mesmer where you have to pay attention to 10 million evades while paying attention to AI or instant cast.

 

Even though they have z-axis teleports they at least won't be spamming evades while doing it. And since plague form got nerfed and effective HP getting INDIRECTLY toned down, core Necro should be more tolerable than the other classes.

 

If two people attack them it should be possible to take down them down in a couple of seconds UNLESS they have a firebrand but tbh firebrand anything is kinda too strong.

 

I think they are more tolerable than their state in pre-HoT 2015 even because there is a lot of damage now. Pte-Hot 2015 necro was actually obnoxious to fight against if you didn't have a Mesmer or a Thief because effective HP by then had insane potential (Nowadays Carrion, Valkyrie, Paladin, etc can die within seconds). Effective HP > Invulns, but yes these things can be really annoying to fight against depending on the comp.

 

Though I am curious, what specific build are we talking about that might be a proble on Core Necro? I can see it's potential and the problems the OP is saying but I'd like to see what build is being talked about.

 

[Ovark.2514]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

 

> Though I am curious, what specific build are we talking about that might be a proble on Core Necro? I can see it's potential and the problems the OP is saying but I'd like to see what build is being talked about.

>

 

I don't know the build, but there is a core condi necro build that sees use in the gold-plat range. The build usually uses Spectral Ring and focuses on heavy fear durations. I think I've seen wells and minions used at various times but I'm not 100% on that.

[Gundam Style.8495]

more core necros have been playing the juke fear build

edit: time to nerf.

[Ovark.2514]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > While you are correct, unfortunately, nobody is going to be on your side for this because everyone is crying too loudly about how the other builds which are even worse than core necro because not only do they operate outside of the restrictions of projectile travel, positioning and timing, but they also do so while inflicting far, far more damage than core necro could ever dream of matching.

>

> Totally true!! Necromancer do have plenty of valid reasons to feel this way though as some examples you stated

>

> (On the side note; if i may add )by Kroof

>

>

 

The video is pretty dated but her ideas I liked. However, I don't see how her suggestions were similar to mine or even went into the same traits/skills as I did. Also, she seems to PvE only, at least from the footage she showed. Also, keep in mind that this post isn't about just the necro, it's about all issues with Tells and Cast Times. All classes have issues with this; most notable being Mesmer, Guardian, Thief, and Rev. I used necro as an example because I wanted to emphasize the strength of Boon removal/corruption and how it can be appropriately implemented through skills and traits.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

cant tell if serious

[Quadox.7834]

You are right but many people can't separate bad mechanics from op-ness. Necro staff is one of the worst designed weapons in the game in my opinion.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> While you are correct, unfortunately, nobody is going to be on your side for this because everyone is crying too loudly about how the other builds which are even worse than core necro because not only do they operate outside of the restrictions of projectile travel, positioning and timing, but they also do so while inflicting far, far more damage than core necro could ever dream of matching.

 

This.

 

OP is technically correct. Lack of interactivity is a bigger problem than actual balance.

 

But dayum son pick a better example than core Necro. Like you could pick Chronobunk or DE, those both have the same issues and are actually played in plat II or higher. Core necro is not.

 

 

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > While you are correct, unfortunately, nobody is going to be on your side for this because everyone is crying too loudly about how the other builds which are even worse than core necro because not only do they operate outside of the restrictions of projectile travel, positioning and timing, but they also do so while inflicting far, far more damage than core necro could ever dream of matching.

>

> This.

>

> OP is technically correct. Lack of interactivity is a bigger problem than actual balance.

>

> But kitten son pick a better example than core Necro. Like you could pick Chronobunk or DE, those both have the same issues and are actually played in plat II or higher. Core necro is not.

>

>

 

I see what you are saying but many of his examples (except core shroud) can still be used on reaper/scourge, like staff.

[Meteor.3720]

OP crying about core necro :#

Because that's definitely the biggest offender in pvp atm

 

The nerfs suggested would make core nec even more unviable in the current meta

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Gundam Style.8495" said:

> more core necros have been playing the juke fear build

> edit: time to nerf.

 

Great idea. Nerf a build that heavily relies on exactly one condition to burst enemies. But that can be countered by condicleanses, stunbreaks, stability, resistance and dmg immunities

 

Sure nerf passive procs. But you can't do that just for necro, you'd have to do that to all professions.

Guess how players of those professions would cry!

 

Also. Instant casts on necro?

Necro has the most telegraphed attacks in the game. Giving necro at least some instant casts that all other classes have as well (most have more than necro or at least more impacting abilities) is just fair

[BlackTruth.6813]

Necro isn't more telegraphed than Warrior or Scrapper :) They DO have instant cast (shroud fear on core, even shroud fear on reaper can be untelegraphed and can be easy to time) but if you wanted to defend Necro you would say "at least they don't spam evades and don't have any real invulns, and effective HP isn't really that great by itself"

 

 

[HeadCrowned.6834]

Core necro lacks so many things that nerfing anything from it can be perceived as a waste of time in comparison to nerfing all the other classes and builds that perform better in PvP than core necro.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

_Irony: on_

So in short, base on what you say, we need to remove:

- Instant CC like _fear me_ (up to 6s of fear, no tell, unblockable), _"protect me!"_ (up to 4 seconds taunt, stun break... etc.), _steal_ (as a whole), _Power lock_ (active from _mantra of distraction_)... etc.

- Put a glowing orange area where aoe skills are cast (when those aoe skills have a cast time)

- Let's add a huge orange/red mark where players put traps (just to be safe)

- Remove traits that proc damage/skills and instance of invulnerability while we are at it.

 

On core necromancer specifically, let's just reskin every necromancer permanently with the lich form skin in sPvP and add the "on my mark!" glowing red target above it's head while we are at it.

 

_Irony: off_

More seriously, there is obvious tells to _tainted shackles_ you've got 4 whole second to break the shackle by just moving out of the radius of the skill. There is also a skill animation when the necromancer enter shroud and he got _weakening shroud_ (and/or _spitful spirit_ equiped for all that matter). Shall I even remind that those trait procs already no longer crit?

 

Boons are rampant on most professions and boon corruptions effect are only effective if and only if there are boons to corrupt. Most of the powercreep that the game suffer is due to how cheap boons are which make both damage and defense an issue in sPvP.

 

ANet push boon corruption on the necromancer again and again in order to reduce/contain this boon powercreep that plague the game where they should most likely just nerf every single skill/traits that grant boons by smiting boons duration/number granted by those skills/traits to oblivion. This would be hundred time wiser than giving more tells to one of the profession that is the easiest to predict. (it's not like a necromancer can jump on you from stealth, evade your attacks for days or even block your CCs.)

[Erzian.5218]

April fool’s day?

[mixxed.5862]

OP has a good point although core necro isn't really the worst offender balance-wise. Cast times, visibility and tells definitely need a pass across the board. I'm not totally against instant cast CCs altogether, in some cases they make the game feel more fluent and there are stun breaks/condi clears after all. Although when they're on short cooldowns it just feels cheap.

On the other side of the spectrum there's too much dodge/defensive spam on some builds. When you run two Sigils of Energy you can dodge every 5 seconds, with some kiting, defensive weapon sets and utilities you'll have plenty to waste. It's too forgiving! Plus it leads to spam of offensive skills as you won't manage to save your impactful skills for when your opponent's out of defenses anyways. So spam away and hope for your opponent to mess up!

 

* Work on cast times, tells, visibility and at least reconsider cooldowns on instant skills/procs

* Decrease defensive creep by removing Sigil of Energy, Rune of Earth and Rune of Sanctuary

* Rebalance the constant high pressure on some specs (e.g. 33 might power herald)

* Rebalance availability of active defenses accordingly where it's necessary (e.g. firebrand's triple AoE stunbreak elite mantra)

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Putting aside OP's ludicrous use of Core Necro as an example, **Stealth** is the worst offender for lack of tells.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> Putting aside OP's ludicrous use of Core Necro as an example, **Stealth** is the worst offender for lack of tells.

 

+1

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

Tainted shackles has a tell and 1/4s cast time, you can even break the tether, weaking shroud has a tell which is the exact one of dagger 5 aka green kitten coming down from sky.

Doom is instant yes, but how many cc on other professions are instant and more spammable than this one? Doom is countered by condition clear, stability and breakstun and it's on 20s cd so it's not like you can spam it. If you nerf a primary set up for burst like that are you ready to reduce the cast time of every other skill that has 1s cast time? Like life blast, spinal shivers, unholy feast and more? Because you can't just remove a burst setup without compensating for it.

Does staff need different animation for each mark? Yes. Does it have a different icon for each mark? Yes, learn them. Chillblains has the same symbol of mark of blood but Putrid Mark and Reaper's Mark have different ones.

Wanna remove autoprocs? I'm fine with that but let's remove them for every profession in game. Necromancer got already gutted by removing completely auto spectral armor meanwhile engi got a rework of his elixir. This show that anet is not willing to remove them completely from game for every profession, which should have been done since the release. Also you suggest removing a passive proc to replace it with a passive conditioned dot?Imo that's not how you make a game less passive.

Applying the cast time of the skill like weaking shroud to entering shroud is probably the worst idea I've ever seen, do you even play necro? Entering shroud instantly is crucial since people can already punish you enough when you are in it by stunning you to death or burning your entire bar with a burst, we should not add the possibility of interrupting a core mechanic.

Core necro is the easiest core build to shut down, don't spam boons and cc necro to death. DONE.

[Ovark.2514]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> _Irony: on_

> So in short, base on what you say, we need to remove:

> - Instant CC like _fear me_ (up to 6s of fear, no tell, unblockable), _"protect me!"_ (up to 4 seconds taunt, stun break... etc.), _steal_ (as a whole), _Power lock_ (active from _mantra of distraction_)... etc.

> - Put a glowing orange area where aoe skills are cast (when those aoe skills have a cast time)

> - Remove traits that proc damage/skills and instance of invulnerability while we are at it.

 

You are correct. These changes would improve the game greatly. I think that a large orange circle is a bit overkill, any kind of area indication would probably be sufficient.

 

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> OP is technically correct. Lack of interactivity is a bigger problem than actual balance.

>

> But kitten son pick a better example than core Necro. Like you could pick Chronobunk or DE, those both have the same issues and are actually played in plat II or higher. Core necro is not.

>

 

I'm glad some people see things this way :)

Perhaps my choice of class to represent these issues was not ideal. I provided other examples in a later post. Luckily most people are able to discern the intent of the post.

 

> @"mixxed.5862" said:

> OP has a good point although core necro isn't really the worst offender balance-wise. Cast times, visibility and tells definitely need a pass across the board. I'm not totally against instant cast CCs altogether, in some cases they make the game feel more fluent and there are stun breaks/condi clears after all. Although when they're on short cooldowns it just feels cheap.

> On the other side of the spectrum there's too much dodge/defensive spam on some builds. When you run two Sigils of Energy you can dodge every 5 seconds, with some kiting, defensive weapon sets and utilities you'll have plenty to waste. It's too forgiving! Plus it leads to spam of offensive skills as you won't manage to save your impactful skills for when your opponent's out of defenses anyways. So spam away and hope for your opponent to mess up!

>

> * Work on cast times, tells, visibility and at least reconsider cooldowns on instant skills/procs

> * Decrease defensive creep by removing Sigil of Energy, Rune of Earth and Rune of Sanctuary

> * Rebalance the constant high pressure on some specs (e.g. 33 might power herald)

> * Rebalance availability of active defenses accordingly where it's necessary (e.g. firebrand's triple AoE stunbreak elite mantra)

 

Excellent suggestions!

[BlackTruth.6813]

If they are to have HIGHER cast times right now, then they need better effective HP to make up for it. It isn't pre-HoT 2015, times have changed and there is a lot more burst now.

 

Before you nerf their casting times, they better HAVE compensation elsewhere, because were not trying to remake ANET's "Quickness change" that ruined Warrior for months back in 2012. VERY idiotic, were not trying to repeat history either hopefully.

[Anchoku.8142]

@""Ovark.2514"

Play core Necro for a while so you understand its weaknesses and can take advantage of them when on your favorite profession. Necromancer has huge holes in its skill set.

 

One thing to understand is that Necro has few options for dealing with tells from other professions. Seeing a tell and being able to avoid the incoming damage are two different things so Necro players must carefully discern which skills to spend a counter on. Eating more CCs and damage bursts are the reason for Shroud, Fear, stun-breaks, and soft-CC conditions like weakness, blind, cripple, and chill. Necro does not have burst damage and has almost no hard CC. Core Necro, especially, is a condi-pressure profession. It does little else particularly well.

 

The only block/immunity skill is shroud and it has several requirements for its use: ICD on use, charges by active attack via specific skills or local deaths, degenerates with skill use and/or with time, takes damage from incoming attacks, is unavailable without enough charge (life force), it does not prevent all damage within a time period and so does not scale up with incoming damage, and transforms the skill bar just like Signet of Humiliation.

 

Regarding staff, it sets low-damage AoE traps. Staff is used for soft CC, nuisance condi, and a regen but removes most of a Necro's damage capability until it can be swapped out for other weapons. You should not have to fear staff. It merely buys time for the Necro and helps build life force.

 

Read the wiki on Tainted Shackles and Chill of Death, again, and imagine what capabilities are missing in Necro such that the Dev's put those skills in the game and gave them the short/instant cast times. The shroud skill and auto-proc trait have counter-play for opponents built in them, too.

[Ovark.2514]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> @""Ovark.2514"

> Play core Necro for a while so you understand its weaknesses and can take advantage of them when on your favorite profession. Necromancer has huge holes in its skill set.

>

> One thing to understand is that Necro has few options for dealing with tells from other professions. Seeing a tell and being able to avoid the incoming damage are two different things so Necro players must carefully discern which skills to spend a counter on. Eating more CCs and damage bursts are the reason for Shroud, Fear, stun-breaks, and soft-CC conditions like weakness, blind, cripple, and chill. Necro does not have burst damage and has almost no hard CC. Core Necro, especially, is a condi-pressure profession. It does little else particularly well.

>

> The only block/immunity skill is shroud and it has several requirements for its use: ICD on use, charges by active attack via specific skills or local deaths, degenerates with skill use and/or with time, takes damage from incoming attacks, is unavailable without enough charge (life force), it does not prevent all damage within a time period and so does not scale up with incoming damage, and transforms the skill bar just like Signet of Humiliation.

>

> Regarding staff, it sets low-damage AoE traps. Staff is used for soft CC, nuisance condi, and a regen but removes most of a Necro's damage capability until it can be swapped out for other weapons. You should not have to fear staff. It merely buys time for the Necro and helps build life force.

>

> Read the wiki on Tainted Shackles and Chill of Death, again, and imagine what capabilities are missing in Necro such that the Dev's put those skills in the game and gave them the short/instant cast times. The shroud skill and auto-proc trait have counter-play for opponents built in them, too.

 

I appreciate you trying to educate me on the necro but my skill at combating them is not anywhere near the topic of this thread. I'm simply reminding the devs of one of the residual problems of this game mode. The lack of adequate tells and animations for skills which apply a significant effect pushes out builds which would otherwise be useful with increased skill and practice.