yann.1946 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > >That’s not dishonesty. You’re misusing the word. > > > > >By your usage of the word, State-run lotteries are dishonest. Raffles are dishonest. The McDonald’s monopoly game is dishonest. Those card packs that may contain a rare card are dishonest. > > > > >You’re labeling it as dishonest because there’s RNG involved and one side stands to benefit from it. > > > > > > > > @"TheGrimm.5624" said: > > > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > As a healthy natural state for human beings, people need to work in order to provide a specific service/product and recieve the equivalent value of money. It's true that sometimes commerce involves taking risks but if you lose your money you can either blame "fate" or blame yourself for your poor management. No one else is to blame here. > > > > > > > > > > > > This case is different, gaming companies offer players a gamble by selling them loot boxes which contains random items with let's say 1% to 100% of its money's value and a chance of 1% to get 500% of your money's worth and a 0.001% chance to get the ingame marchendise you'd like to buy. If a player wants to get an item worth 10$, he will have to buy 100 5$ lootboxes in order to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > This dishonest behavior from these companies aims to milk players by selling them Items they don't need and in many cases players will recive worthless items compared to what they payed for. Gambling companies work almost the same way but with different currencies, rewards and chances. > > > > > > > > > > > > And I'll say it again: Capitalism has nothing to do with the subject. > > > > > > > > > > It’s a bit disingenuous to call it ‘dishonest’ because you dislike it. > > > > > > > > Can you elaborate on that? Because I made a very clear and logical argument here. > > > > > > Sorry but cutting out some of previous quote to narrow it down some. I also have to agree I don't think dishonest is valid. When I buy keys, and it's normally for cash not conversion, I know what I bought. I just bought keys that equal however much I spent. No randomness there. I understand that key will then combine with another item I did not buy with cash that will grant me a random experience. So again I am fully aware of what I bought. I have never felt that was dishonest, I know all the way thru what I am buying. If I choose to pay for that random experience that was my choice, I wasn't conned into it. In some cases I have sat on keys for a while so in reality if you break it down that way there is no randomness in the original purchase at all. I bought a key that is worth $1.56. Whether or not I do something with it from there is on me. But we all know the purpose of the key it to open the BLTC so we will leave that there. > > > > > > Now back in the day when we couldn't preview I think I would agree a bit more, but even then, I still knew I was spending $20-100 on a random experience, but I still choose to do it. When I don't want that randomness, I just don't buy keys. For it to be dishonest they would need to say you have to buy this thing but we aren't telling you what it is and you really don't have to. > > > > > > Now let's go the other way for a second and look at something not guild wars. Lets say it was a new game and the only way you could level up and grow stronger was by buying random loot chests. You still don't have to play, walk away from the game. You spending money is what empowers yourself, choose not to transact with them. They go out of business. > > > > > > This would be a whole different discussion if this was something like you need to buy loot boxes to get your medicine for an illness you have. > > > > Keys by themselves are not the item you really bought. People do not buy keys because they want to see a key icon in their inventory. If you don't use them correctly they will stay as an item with 0 value in your inventory and you will be spending 1.56$ for 0 until you open a BLC and get the item you bought the key for. Still, I respect your choice for buying the key knowing what it may or may not contain as much loot as its worth. I also respect your choice for throwing your money into the sea or burning it willingly but my points here are: > > > > 1- There are some inexperienced players who will buy the keys and get completely worthless items. These players won't get their money's worth and will feel betrayed/robbed. > > > > 2- If Anet puts an item for sale. There has to be a way to buy this item with a known X price. Loot boxes does not allow this kind of transaction and instead it gives the item a random chance to appear within the the box. This will make players who want this item buy multiple boxes to get it and buy doing that they will end up recieving many items they don't need and spend more money than the value the item they wanted. > > > > I myself am against gambling altogether for many reasons but I will try to make suggestion in order to reduce the negative effect of lootboxes: > > > > 1- A BLC must contain at least an item which have equal (or more) value than 1.56$ or its equivalent of gold/gems. Selling players a box which has sometimes almost 0 value is nothing but robbery. The example of random mount packs is a bit better than the BLC. At least you will always get your money's worth when you buy one. > > > > 2- Make all BLC items tradable so players won't have to buy multiple keys in order to get what they want. I am not against making rare drops but if a player wants that rare item the cost to get it from a lootbox will be far too high and he will end up getting (buying) many items he did not want to recieve. > > What is worthless that comes out of the BLTC? Nothing, everything that the chest drops can also be bought separately, so everything in that chest has a value...maybe it has no value to YOU, but it does have a value to someone...so your argument there is false. Whether or not you receive something you wanted or didn't want is besides the point, it all still has a value to it, and that item doesn't have to be equal to the value of a key either, it only needs a value, even if that value is $.10, it's a value. > > Also, since you're personally already against gambling for other reasons, that makes your opinion biased(which hopefully people picked up on when you stated that), that doesn't mean it's not valid, it just means it comes with a bias against loot boxes already and no matter what anyone says about them you will have a negative opinion. You would probably still have that opinion even if I told you they don't mean the U.S. legal definition of gambling either.> @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes. > > > > > > > > > > What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's be honest it probably would be better for a lot of people if the state could balance your checkbook and whether you are allowed to have kids > > > > > > Yes, so then we can hear people complain about how said kids can do NOTHING for themselves and people have little to no experience compared to our grandparents/great grandparents etc. > > > > > > That's an embarrassment. We are essentially saying, we the people, can't do anything for ourselves. Period. > > > > I think you're conflating two ideas here. No not everyone should be held in check and should be nannied. > > But their are people for who this would help. > > Their are already people who can't really do things by themselves so why not help them. > > Why not help them? Have you ever heard of Charles Darwin and evolution? Those that can't help themselves fall under this category, we're tampering with natural selection here, as harsh as that may sound. Especially if as they say addiction is a disease, wouldn't we want to weed that disease out of our DNA? You don't seem to understand how natural selection and evolution works apperently. First, most addictions don't decrease the odds of reproduction. A sex addiction is even favored as it increases one's offspring. Secondly, did you know that natural selection favors the poor and uneducated in this world? So we should stop going to school I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > A lot of the enjoyment of playing gw2 is the rng surrounding the loot. I guess now people consider the fact that every mob doesnt drop a precursor as being dishonest? > > > > One guy makes an account and gets a precursor on first kill, meanwhile some guy farming for days gets nothing, is this dishonest? I mean it is a gamble we spent time farming mobs that contain rng bases loot and time is money, so how is this any different? > > If you pay some RL money for **each** mob you kill with the promises that someday you will drop a precursor, then indeed, this practice is dishonest. The alternative being to not pay the RL and to never have the precursor drop. And if the game is not advertised as a gambling game (with all the implication a gambling license has), then the game is not only dishonest. But also it breaks the rules in many country. > > But you bought the game to **play** and not to go to a precursor drop. I never saw this kind of advertising in GW2. Still, with the F2P era, you don't need to spend money even to play. > > You make a confusion between random loot you have from mobs and loot you buy with RL hoping to **a chance** to get a desired item. You can buy lootbags with gold and as such with real life money. Following the ban all lootboxes logic present in this thread we should ban lootbags (or the gems to gold conversion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben K.6238 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Ensign.2189" said: > The alternative to putting exclusive items in BLCs is not selling them on the store for $5. The alternative is not making those items in the first place. They could put them on the store for $40 and I'd still think about it if I really wanted that item. I haven't actually seen a Black Lion chest exclusive that I've wanted yet though, so it's a bit of a hypothetical at this point. It does, unfortunately, seem like the best sources of revenue are either selling a small numbers of items for a high price, or selling a whole lot of random trash for quite cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 Would probably just go the DOTA route and show items before opening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristalyan.5728 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > A lot of the enjoyment of playing gw2 is the rng surrounding the loot. I guess now people consider the fact that every mob doesnt drop a precursor as being dishonest? > > > > > > One guy makes an account and gets a precursor on first kill, meanwhile some guy farming for days gets nothing, is this dishonest? I mean it is a gamble we spent time farming mobs that contain rng bases loot and time is money, so how is this any different? > > > > If you pay some RL money for **each** mob you kill with the promises that someday you will drop a precursor, then indeed, this practice is dishonest. The alternative being to not pay the RL and to never have the precursor drop. And if the game is not advertised as a gambling game (with all the implication a gambling license has), then the game is not only dishonest. But also it breaks the rules in many country. > > > > But you bought the game to **play** and not to go to a precursor drop. I never saw this kind of advertising in GW2. Still, with the F2P era, you don't need to spend money even to play. > > > > You make a confusion between random loot you have from mobs and loot you buy with RL hoping to **a chance** to get a desired item. > > You can buy lootbags with gold and as such with real life money. > Following the ban all lootboxes logic present in this thread we should ban lootbags (or the gems to gold conversion) You can buy a bag of gear ("lootbag" as you say) with few silvers from TP. How many silvers costs a BL Key on the TP? If ANet allows the selling of the BL Key on the TP **and** they make them drop like what you call "lootbags", then I don't think any anti-gambling law will affect ANet - even by keeping the Keys on the Gem Store. Also, by keeping the actual drop rate of the BL Keys but removing the Keys from Gem Store can keep ANet safe from any anti-gambling law. Because what you get from a BL Chest is indeed random (and not very often) , but you don't buy it (in order to have a "gambling" definition) - you get it in the same way you get any drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said: > > Please explain to me how a gambling disclaimer and an age gate ruins your personal enjoyment of anything. Assuming you are an adult with your own money to spend, you can keep happily gambling them away in as many lootboxes as you want. Does anyone stop you from going into a casino to gamble your fortune away? The answer is no unless you are underage, and if that's the case you would be practically reinforcing the argument made in this thread with your stance. > > > > > > This isnt true since in Belgium their decision shut games down outright and with gw2 they permanently removed black lion chests. So yes it does ruin games. It's not Belgium's decision that shut games and removed black lion chests there. It was game developers' decision - they decided that Belgium is so small it's cheaper to just not do business there than adapt. If it wasn't just Belgium, if it was the whole EU for example (or US), then those very same developers would put an effort to think of some solutions - because it would be a large enough market to make it worthwhile to them. The only exception of course would be games whose main reason of existence revolves around lootboxes - games that have nothing worthwhile to offer beyond that. And those games, in my opinion, are not worth saving. > @"Ensign.2189" said: > > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said: > > None of the Euro laws, like the Belgian one, or suggested bills like this, are calling for a blanket ban on lootboxes. They are calling for adherence to existing gambling regulations. > > Belgian gambling regulations may have started as consumer protections, but regulators have been co-opted and largely act to serve the interests of casinos. The regulations in question are designed to be unreasonable to comply with and are a ban in practice. Nah, if anything, casinos are continuously lobbying for making gambling restrictions _easier_. They just want them to apply to everyone in the business. They wouldn't want any potential competition to be able to operate _without the very same restrictions they have to face_, after all. No sane person would want that. If regulations end up being unreasonably strict (which they often do), it's only because people making them have no real experience with the issue. That is why it's important for the gaming industry to self-regulate - if they won't do that, if they'll use every possible trick in the book to try to avoid any regulations, then they will eventually be hit by laws that were made by people who will care about making them watertight, but won't have enough experience to not overdo it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > A lot of the enjoyment of playing gw2 is the rng surrounding the loot. I guess now people consider the fact that every mob doesnt drop a precursor as being dishonest? > > One guy makes an account and gets a precursor on first kill, meanwhile some guy farming for days gets nothing, is this dishonest? I mean it is a gamble we spent time farming mobs that contain rng bases loot and time is money, so how is this any different? You don't spend real money to kill mobs in the hope it drops your "big shiny want naow" Loot boxes are inherently predatory.. GW2 as I have already said is far less an issue in this respect and ANET have actively added ways to get around such predatory practices, but your trying get orange juice from apples imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewenness.6482 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes. > > What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief. > > Considering how many people breed with no sense of responsibility and with no love for their children, that would be an improvement. It's absurd that driving a vehicle requires a license or that alcohol and tobacco are regulated but popping out kids is a free-for-all bonanza resulting in millions of children growing up neglected and abused. It's disgusting and frankly speaking should be the main focus of any movement using the "but think of the children" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabasco.1743 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 On topic, I think a bill like this will take time to mature before it gets enough traction. I also think ArenaNet already has an idea of how to change the Black Lion Chest mechanic if it did pass. They have doubtless already spent time rethinking the role of a Black Lion Chest without the incentive to spend money on keys. We would probably get more content direct in the gem store, perhaps an increase in the price of some items to offset the loss, or the introduction of new items to supplement it. Edit: meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > A lot of the enjoyment of playing gw2 is the rng surrounding the loot. I guess now people consider the fact that every mob doesnt drop a precursor as being dishonest? > > > > > > > > One guy makes an account and gets a precursor on first kill, meanwhile some guy farming for days gets nothing, is this dishonest? I mean it is a gamble we spent time farming mobs that contain rng bases loot and time is money, so how is this any different? > > > > > > If you pay some RL money for **each** mob you kill with the promises that someday you will drop a precursor, then indeed, this practice is dishonest. The alternative being to not pay the RL and to never have the precursor drop. And if the game is not advertised as a gambling game (with all the implication a gambling license has), then the game is not only dishonest. But also it breaks the rules in many country. > > > > > > But you bought the game to **play** and not to go to a precursor drop. I never saw this kind of advertising in GW2. Still, with the F2P era, you don't need to spend money even to play. > > > > > > You make a confusion between random loot you have from mobs and loot you buy with RL hoping to **a chance** to get a desired item. > > > > You can buy lootbags with gold and as such with real life money. > > Following the ban all lootboxes logic present in this thread we should ban lootbags (or the gems to gold conversion) > > You can buy a bag of gear ("lootbag" as you say) with few silvers from TP. > How many silvers costs a BL Key on the TP? > > If ANet allows the selling of the BL Key on the TP **and** they make them drop like what you call "lootbags", then I don't think any anti-gambling law will affect ANet - even by keeping the Keys on the Gem Store. > Also, by keeping the actual drop rate of the BL Keys but removing the Keys from Gem Store can keep ANet safe from any anti-gambling law. Because what you get from a BL Chest is indeed random (and not very often) , but you don't buy it (in order to have a "gambling" definition) - you get it in the same way you get any drop. I agree that no reasonable person would see lootbags the same way as keys. My only point is that the question should be what is considered gambling as in the most strict definition lootbags should fall under them. And under the most light regulations keys are not gambling. I read a post recently in the rs3 reddit where somebody stopped playing because he was addicted to some player driven gambling in the game (only gold could be bet but the conversion of money to gold also exists their) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > >That’s not dishonesty. You’re misusing the word. > > > > > > >By your usage of the word, State-run lotteries are dishonest. Raffles are dishonest. The McDonald’s monopoly game is dishonest. Those card packs that may contain a rare card are dishonest. > > > > > > >You’re labeling it as dishonest because there’s RNG involved and one side stands to benefit from it. > > > > > > > > > > > @"TheGrimm.5624" said: > > > > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a healthy natural state for human beings, people need to work in order to provide a specific service/product and recieve the equivalent value of money. It's true that sometimes commerce involves taking risks but if you lose your money you can either blame "fate" or blame yourself for your poor management. No one else is to blame here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This case is different, gaming companies offer players a gamble by selling them loot boxes which contains random items with let's say 1% to 100% of its money's value and a chance of 1% to get 500% of your money's worth and a 0.001% chance to get the ingame marchendise you'd like to buy. If a player wants to get an item worth 10$, he will have to buy 100 5$ lootboxes in order to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This dishonest behavior from these companies aims to milk players by selling them Items they don't need and in many cases players will recive worthless items compared to what they payed for. Gambling companies work almost the same way but with different currencies, rewards and chances. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I'll say it again: Capitalism has nothing to do with the subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s a bit disingenuous to call it ‘dishonest’ because you dislike it. > > > > > > > > > > Can you elaborate on that? Because I made a very clear and logical argument here. > > > > > > > > Sorry but cutting out some of previous quote to narrow it down some. I also have to agree I don't think dishonest is valid. When I buy keys, and it's normally for cash not conversion, I know what I bought. I just bought keys that equal however much I spent. No randomness there. I understand that key will then combine with another item I did not buy with cash that will grant me a random experience. So again I am fully aware of what I bought. I have never felt that was dishonest, I know all the way thru what I am buying. If I choose to pay for that random experience that was my choice, I wasn't conned into it. In some cases I have sat on keys for a while so in reality if you break it down that way there is no randomness in the original purchase at all. I bought a key that is worth $1.56. Whether or not I do something with it from there is on me. But we all know the purpose of the key it to open the BLTC so we will leave that there. > > > > > > > > Now back in the day when we couldn't preview I think I would agree a bit more, but even then, I still knew I was spending $20-100 on a random experience, but I still choose to do it. When I don't want that randomness, I just don't buy keys. For it to be dishonest they would need to say you have to buy this thing but we aren't telling you what it is and you really don't have to. > > > > > > > > Now let's go the other way for a second and look at something not guild wars. Lets say it was a new game and the only way you could level up and grow stronger was by buying random loot chests. You still don't have to play, walk away from the game. You spending money is what empowers yourself, choose not to transact with them. They go out of business. > > > > > > > > This would be a whole different discussion if this was something like you need to buy loot boxes to get your medicine for an illness you have. > > > > > > Keys by themselves are not the item you really bought. People do not buy keys because they want to see a key icon in their inventory. If you don't use them correctly they will stay as an item with 0 value in your inventory and you will be spending 1.56$ for 0 until you open a BLC and get the item you bought the key for. Still, I respect your choice for buying the key knowing what it may or may not contain as much loot as its worth. I also respect your choice for throwing your money into the sea or burning it willingly but my points here are: > > > > > > 1- There are some inexperienced players who will buy the keys and get completely worthless items. These players won't get their money's worth and will feel betrayed/robbed. > > > > > > 2- If Anet puts an item for sale. There has to be a way to buy this item with a known X price. Loot boxes does not allow this kind of transaction and instead it gives the item a random chance to appear within the the box. This will make players who want this item buy multiple boxes to get it and buy doing that they will end up recieving many items they don't need and spend more money than the value the item they wanted. > > > > > > I myself am against gambling altogether for many reasons but I will try to make suggestion in order to reduce the negative effect of lootboxes: > > > > > > 1- A BLC must contain at least an item which have equal (or more) value than 1.56$ or its equivalent of gold/gems. Selling players a box which has sometimes almost 0 value is nothing but robbery. The example of random mount packs is a bit better than the BLC. At least you will always get your money's worth when you buy one. > > > > > > 2- Make all BLC items tradable so players won't have to buy multiple keys in order to get what they want. I am not against making rare drops but if a player wants that rare item the cost to get it from a lootbox will be far too high and he will end up getting (buying) many items he did not want to recieve. > > > > What is worthless that comes out of the BLTC? Nothing, everything that the chest drops can also be bought separately, so everything in that chest has a value...maybe it has no value to YOU, but it does have a value to someone...so your argument there is false. Whether or not you receive something you wanted or didn't want is besides the point, it all still has a value to it, and that item doesn't have to be equal to the value of a key either, it only needs a value, even if that value is $.10, it's a value. > > > > Also, since you're personally already against gambling for other reasons, that makes your opinion biased(which hopefully people picked up on when you stated that), that doesn't mean it's not valid, it just means it comes with a bias against loot boxes already and no matter what anyone says about them you will have a negative opinion. You would probably still have that opinion even if I told you they don't mean the U.S. legal definition of gambling either.> @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > > Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes. > > > > > > > > > > > > What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's be honest it probably would be better for a lot of people if the state could balance your checkbook and whether you are allowed to have kids > > > > > > > > Yes, so then we can hear people complain about how said kids can do NOTHING for themselves and people have little to no experience compared to our grandparents/great grandparents etc. > > > > > > > > That's an embarrassment. We are essentially saying, we the people, can't do anything for ourselves. Period. > > > > > > I think you're conflating two ideas here. No not everyone should be held in check and should be nannied. > > > But their are people for who this would help. > > > Their are already people who can't really do things by themselves so why not help them. > > > > Why not help them? Have you ever heard of Charles Darwin and evolution? Those that can't help themselves fall under this category, we're tampering with natural selection here, as harsh as that may sound. Especially if as they say addiction is a disease, wouldn't we want to weed that disease out of our DNA? > > You don't seem to understand how natural selection and evolution works apperently. > > First, most addictions don't decrease the odds of reproduction. A sex addiction is even favored as it increases one's offspring. > > Secondly, did you know that natural selection favors the poor and uneducated in this world? So we should stop going to school I guess? Let me put it this way then...there are those that need help, and those that don't, I don't put addicts in the category of those that need help. Drug addicts usually either end up dead from an OD or they build up a tolerance, gambling addicts can end up destitute, with no family, home, money...nothing, etc., etc.,. Let the addiction run it's course, there must a valid reason people get addicted to things. As for the poor and uneducated being favored in natural selection, just because their populations keep expanding doesn't mean they're being selected over the intelligent and those able to live comfortably...all it means is they reproduce more often, they still end up with a shorter life span, less food to eat(more starvation). The argument goes both ways, and that isn't really what this is about, it's about you saying some people need to be nannied, and I'm saying they don't. Let parents parent, and if the parent refuses to parent, then what ever their child turns into is not my problem to prevent or fix(and don't even go down the road of criminal behavior...that's not what we're talking about). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trixantea.1230 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > What is worthless that comes out of the BLTC? Nothing, everything that the chest drops can also be bought separately, so everything in that chest has a value...maybe it has no value to YOU, but it does have a value to someone...so your argument there is false. Whether or not you receive something you wanted or didn't want is besides the point, it all still has a value to it, and that item doesn't have to be equal to the value of a key either, it only needs a value, even if that value is $.10, it's a value. >Also, since you're personally already against gambling for other reasons, that makes your opinion biased(which hopefully people picked up on when you stated that), that doesn't mean it's not valid, it just means it comes with a bias against loot boxes already and no matter what anyone says about them you will have a negative opinion. You would probably still have that opinion even if I told you they don't mean the U.S. legal definition of gambling either. > "Many items within are also available in the Gem Store, though some rare items are exclusive to the chest, and a good portion of the items are Account Bound." Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Chest I can give you exemples about it but anyway.. my 2 early points still stand: If a player doesn't need an item he got from the lootbox and can not trade, he will either delete it or let gather dust in one of his bank tabs. Either way, his money is wasted on an item he does not want/need with a tricky way from Anet to sell it. This is why I'm saying that all BL Chest loot must be tradable. Also, If anyone spend 1.56$ on a chest and was unlucky to get a value of 0.10$, there has to be a problem with the transaction: the customer did not get his money's worth and the company has taken money they don't deserve. To remove this kind of situation, the chest must contain in every random roll at the very least the equivalent item/gold/gems of 1.56$. Hearthstone for example managed to reduce these issues by gaving players at least one garanteed rare item within each box and adding something called "pity timer" which increases your chances to get legendary items the more you open lootboxes. I am not saying that Hearthstone business model is perfect but it's still better that the Black Lion Chest system. My opinion is not biased as you claim here. I'm just criticising these issues with the Black lion Chest and trying to suggest solutions. It'll only be biased if I say something like : "Remove lootboxes from the game altogethger". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 "plans to submit" I don't think BLC are going away within the lifetime of GW2 [https://govtrack.us/congress/bills/statistics](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/statistics "https://govtrack.us/congress/bills/statistics") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maikimaik.1974 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > Why dont players simply learn to control their behaviors instead of passing laws that needlessly impact everyone's enjoyment. I guess the message is if you enjoy gambling or RNG then theres just no place for that... great. I dont agree i think if you dont like it just dont participate in it, watch children and learn to say no to them and learn to control impulses rather then project laws on everyone that arent needed and are unwanted. Okay you're obviusly not a psychologist. At least I hope you're not, just imagine going to therapy because you're addicted to something and the therapist would just say: "well it's your fault for not having any self control, sucks to be you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"trixantea.1230" said: > Keys by themselves are not the item you really bought. People do not buy keys because they want to see a key icon in their inventory. If you don't use them correctly they will stay as an item with 0 value in your inventory and you will be spending 1.56$ for 0 until you open a BLC and get the item you bought the key for. Still, I respect your choice for buying the key knowing what it may or may not contain as much loot as its worth. I also respect your choice for throwing your money into the sea or burning it willingly but my points here are: > > 1- There are some inexperienced players who will buy the keys and get completely worthless items. These players won't get their money's worth and will feel betrayed/robbed. > > 2- If Anet puts an item for sale. There has to be a way to buy this item with a known X price. Loot boxes does not allow this kind of transaction and instead it gives the item a random chance to appear within the the box. This will make players who want this item buy multiple boxes to get it and buy doing that they will end up recieving many items they don't need and spend more money than the value the item they wanted. > > I myself am against gambling altogether for many reasons but I will try to make suggestion in order to reduce the negative effect of lootboxes: > > 1- A BLC must contain at least an item which have equal (or more) value than 1.56$ or its equivalent of gold/gems. Selling players a box which has sometimes almost 0 value is nothing but robbery. The example of random mount packs is a bit better than the BLC. At least you will always get your money's worth when you buy one. > > 2- Make all BLC items tradable so players won't have to buy multiple keys in order to get what they want. I am not against making rare drops but if a player wants that rare item the cost to get it from a lootbox will be far too high and he will end up getting (buying) many items he did not want to recieve. I understand the against gambling and I also admit I have mentioned on the forums many times I don't recommend BLTC and keys to people. The odds are against you. To your points on the chest having some value, I think that's why ANet went with the fixed role item for each so it would have some static value. I haven't done the math there to see what that comes to, next time I do a batch I will have to do so. The second point, completely agree and have posted that numerous times. All the items out of the chest should be tradable so that people can trade for what they want or don't want. As far as money spent, well each person has different reasons. I buy keys when I like the direction they are going and see it as investing in my gaming future, but again not for everyone, and again not something I think government should be involved in due to that reason when we have bigger issues not being addressed. Good gaming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maikimaik.1974 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > Why not help them? Have you ever heard of Charles Darwin and evolution? Those that can't help themselves fall under this category, we're tampering with natural selection here, as harsh as that may sound. Especially if as they say addiction is a disease, wouldn't we want to weed that disease out of our DNA? Natural selection is virtually non existant in civilized species with adequate healthcare. > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > Let me put it this way then...there are those that need help, and those that don't, I don't put addicts in the category of those that need help. Drug addicts usually either end up dead from an OD or they build up a tolerance, gambling addicts can end up destitute, with no family, home, money...nothing, etc., etc.,. Let the addiction run it's course, there must a valid reason people get addicted to things. Yes because why should we try to save a life if we could just let them die? And yes, there is a valid reason to why people are prone to addictions. It's called dopamine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 So let’s say that Anet removed keys from the store and made them available for ~35G each. Would that still be considered gambling and “exploiting children” since they can buy gems to convert to gold in order to purchase keys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excursion.9752 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 I want to start off by saying I have purchased more than my fair share of lootboxes in a number of different games and I really could go either way on keeping or removing them. +21 is more than likely what it will be because all legal forms of gambling are available at that age. Yes the core issue is introducing children to gambling at a early age but the more pressing matter is how most of society is valuing pixels and willing to put money down on for them. No mater if it is a direct buy of an item from a "gem store" or a lootbox children will still find ways to spend money either in game or some place else. Hopefully for something productive and meaningful. There is the other side to that coin and this is just me speculating, but one could argue that kids could turn to the streets for drugs with that same money. Who knows right? I know most of my friends when I was younger, back when there was only one real mmo Ultima Online on dial up. Not a lot of children had access to play it. You want to know where my friends were? They were out getting in fights and doing drugs and roaming the streets all day and night. I know, I know they were not doing all the bad stuff all the time but they were bored and didn't have much else to do. Sure you could play your single player games but you didn't really have the social aspect feeding that need in most peoples lives. You could say the invention of online gaming and high speed internet changed the game for the rest of time. Back when I was growing up you saw groups of kids everywhere and now while you can still see kids out playing but most of them now are inside playing some sort of mmo. *cough* ForkKnife *cough* What does any of what I just wrote have to do with lootboxes you may be asking yourself. Well if these kids want to keep playing along with the adults the developing companies need to have some sort of revenue coming in to support their staff. So one of two things will need to occur. Keep things status quo and let these companies keep doing what they do to make their business stay a float. Or have all items available for purchase which may be for absurd amounts of money because they still need to hit a certain profit margin. This could also stunt the games growth because the focus may shift to pumping out more items to bridge the money gap. On the bright side for those that do spend big money on loot boxes you will not be spending at much money as you had in the past. This paradigm shift could take the weight of the spending off the few and spread it amongst the masses more evenly. IF and that's a big if more people actually decide to spend their money in game to buy said items. There is no guarantee. So back to my opening statement I could go either way it would be nice not to spend as much money as I do. The down side is that it may not be overall good for the health of the our game and I really would like to see this game around for many more years to come. You hear that NCSOFT... don't mess with guild wars 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"ewenness.6482" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes. > > > > What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief. > > > > > > Considering how many people breed with no sense of responsibility and with no love for their children, that would be an improvement. It's absurd that driving a vehicle requires a license or that alcohol and tobacco are regulated but popping out kids is a free-for-all bonanza resulting in millions of children growing up neglected and abused. It's disgusting and frankly speaking should be the main focus of any movement using the "but think of the children" argument. > Whose fault was it for not teaching the right or wrong values of child raising and responsibility? I'll give you a hint. It's not the school teachers. But yes, again, let's continue going down this path where we literally do NOTHING for ourselves and have the government make decisions for us. That can only roll over so well. So very very well in our future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > >That’s not dishonesty. You’re misusing the word. > > > > > > > > >By your usage of the word, State-run lotteries are dishonest. Raffles are dishonest. The McDonald’s monopoly game is dishonest. Those card packs that may contain a rare card are dishonest. > > > > > > > > >You’re labeling it as dishonest because there’s RNG involved and one side stands to benefit from it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TheGrimm.5624" said: > > > > > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"trixantea.1230" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a healthy natural state for human beings, people need to work in order to provide a specific service/product and recieve the equivalent value of money. It's true that sometimes commerce involves taking risks but if you lose your money you can either blame "fate" or blame yourself for your poor management. No one else is to blame here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This case is different, gaming companies offer players a gamble by selling them loot boxes which contains random items with let's say 1% to 100% of its money's value and a chance of 1% to get 500% of your money's worth and a 0.001% chance to get the ingame marchendise you'd like to buy. If a player wants to get an item worth 10$, he will have to buy 100 5$ lootboxes in order to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This dishonest behavior from these companies aims to milk players by selling them Items they don't need and in many cases players will recive worthless items compared to what they payed for. Gambling companies work almost the same way but with different currencies, rewards and chances. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I'll say it again: Capitalism has nothing to do with the subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s a bit disingenuous to call it ‘dishonest’ because you dislike it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you elaborate on that? Because I made a very clear and logical argument here. > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but cutting out some of previous quote to narrow it down some. I also have to agree I don't think dishonest is valid. When I buy keys, and it's normally for cash not conversion, I know what I bought. I just bought keys that equal however much I spent. No randomness there. I understand that key will then combine with another item I did not buy with cash that will grant me a random experience. So again I am fully aware of what I bought. I have never felt that was dishonest, I know all the way thru what I am buying. If I choose to pay for that random experience that was my choice, I wasn't conned into it. In some cases I have sat on keys for a while so in reality if you break it down that way there is no randomness in the original purchase at all. I bought a key that is worth $1.56. Whether or not I do something with it from there is on me. But we all know the purpose of the key it to open the BLTC so we will leave that there. > > > > > > > > > > Now back in the day when we couldn't preview I think I would agree a bit more, but even then, I still knew I was spending $20-100 on a random experience, but I still choose to do it. When I don't want that randomness, I just don't buy keys. For it to be dishonest they would need to say you have to buy this thing but we aren't telling you what it is and you really don't have to. > > > > > > > > > > Now let's go the other way for a second and look at something not guild wars. Lets say it was a new game and the only way you could level up and grow stronger was by buying random loot chests. You still don't have to play, walk away from the game. You spending money is what empowers yourself, choose not to transact with them. They go out of business. > > > > > > > > > > This would be a whole different discussion if this was something like you need to buy loot boxes to get your medicine for an illness you have. > > > > > > > > Keys by themselves are not the item you really bought. People do not buy keys because they want to see a key icon in their inventory. If you don't use them correctly they will stay as an item with 0 value in your inventory and you will be spending 1.56$ for 0 until you open a BLC and get the item you bought the key for. Still, I respect your choice for buying the key knowing what it may or may not contain as much loot as its worth. I also respect your choice for throwing your money into the sea or burning it willingly but my points here are: > > > > > > > > 1- There are some inexperienced players who will buy the keys and get completely worthless items. These players won't get their money's worth and will feel betrayed/robbed. > > > > > > > > 2- If Anet puts an item for sale. There has to be a way to buy this item with a known X price. Loot boxes does not allow this kind of transaction and instead it gives the item a random chance to appear within the the box. This will make players who want this item buy multiple boxes to get it and buy doing that they will end up recieving many items they don't need and spend more money than the value the item they wanted. > > > > > > > > I myself am against gambling altogether for many reasons but I will try to make suggestion in order to reduce the negative effect of lootboxes: > > > > > > > > 1- A BLC must contain at least an item which have equal (or more) value than 1.56$ or its equivalent of gold/gems. Selling players a box which has sometimes almost 0 value is nothing but robbery. The example of random mount packs is a bit better than the BLC. At least you will always get your money's worth when you buy one. > > > > > > > > 2- Make all BLC items tradable so players won't have to buy multiple keys in order to get what they want. I am not against making rare drops but if a player wants that rare item the cost to get it from a lootbox will be far too high and he will end up getting (buying) many items he did not want to recieve. > > > > > > What is worthless that comes out of the BLTC? Nothing, everything that the chest drops can also be bought separately, so everything in that chest has a value...maybe it has no value to YOU, but it does have a value to someone...so your argument there is false. Whether or not you receive something you wanted or didn't want is besides the point, it all still has a value to it, and that item doesn't have to be equal to the value of a key either, it only needs a value, even if that value is $.10, it's a value. > > > > > > Also, since you're personally already against gambling for other reasons, that makes your opinion biased(which hopefully people picked up on when you stated that), that doesn't mean it's not valid, it just means it comes with a bias against loot boxes already and no matter what anyone says about them you will have a negative opinion. You would probably still have that opinion even if I told you they don't mean the U.S. legal definition of gambling either.> @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > > > Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's be honest it probably would be better for a lot of people if the state could balance your checkbook and whether you are allowed to have kids > > > > > > > > > > Yes, so then we can hear people complain about how said kids can do NOTHING for themselves and people have little to no experience compared to our grandparents/great grandparents etc. > > > > > > > > > > That's an embarrassment. We are essentially saying, we the people, can't do anything for ourselves. Period. > > > > > > > > I think you're conflating two ideas here. No not everyone should be held in check and should be nannied. > > > > But their are people for who this would help. > > > > Their are already people who can't really do things by themselves so why not help them. > > > > > > Why not help them? Have you ever heard of Charles Darwin and evolution? Those that can't help themselves fall under this category, we're tampering with natural selection here, as harsh as that may sound. Especially if as they say addiction is a disease, wouldn't we want to weed that disease out of our DNA? > > > > You don't seem to understand how natural selection and evolution works apperently. > > > > First, most addictions don't decrease the odds of reproduction. A sex addiction is even favored as it increases one's offspring. > > > > Secondly, did you know that natural selection favors the poor and uneducated in this world? So we should stop going to school I guess? > > Let me put it this way then...there are those that need help, and those that don't, I don't put addicts in the category of those that need help. Drug addicts usually either end up dead from an OD or they build up a tolerance, gambling addicts can end up destitute, with no family, home, money...nothing, etc., etc.,. Let the addiction run it's course, there must a valid reason people get addicted to things. > > As for the poor and uneducated being favored in natural selection, just because their populations keep expanding doesn't mean they're being selected over the intelligent and those able to live comfortably...all it means is they reproduce more often, they still end up with a shorter life span, less food to eat(more starvation). The argument goes both ways, and that isn't really what this is about, it's about you saying some people need to be nannied, and I'm saying they don't. Let parents parent, and if the parent refuses to parent, then what ever their child turns into is not my problem to prevent or fix(and don't even go down the road of criminal behavior...that's not what we're talking about). Humans evolved to be cooperative as a social species, your ideas about social Darwinism are a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"ewenness.6482" said: > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes. > > > > > > What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief. > > > > > > > > > > Considering how many people breed with no sense of responsibility and with no love for their children, that would be an improvement. It's absurd that driving a vehicle requires a license or that alcohol and tobacco are regulated but popping out kids is a free-for-all bonanza resulting in millions of children growing up neglected and abused. It's disgusting and frankly speaking should be the main focus of any movement using the "but think of the children" argument. > > > > Whose fault was it for not teaching the right or wrong values of child raising and responsibility? I'll give you a hint. It's not the school teachers. ...you do realize, you've just proved ewenness' point right there, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragga the Eighty Third.60 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Neural.1824" said: > Oh noes.. game companies might be forced to focus on retaining customers and making money through the quality of their game, not gimmicks! The horror! So...you really think that if profits are in danger, the big corporations' first impulse will be "We must make our game more awesome, stat! Hire more and better devs!" As opposed to "RNG boxes are illegal, but Pay To Win items are perfectly legal as long as people can see the actual price. So if someone wants to do an extra 10% damage, they need to buy our Gem Store Sword Enchantment. And/or Axe Enchantment. And/or Bow Enchantment. Oh, and let's do a half-kittened roll-out of fifty new specs and races, just because it will force people who want to try them out to buy more character slots. And let's make new collections with a hundred things you have to hold onto at once to sell more bank and bag slots. And debugging doesn't bring in any profit, so let's slash the support team and only bother with game-breaking bugs that the majority of players experience. And let's sell a Premium Mount Subscription for 10000 gems where you get the next six premium mounts plus a special mount that nobody can get any other way. And let's start creating new maps with a pay wall. And let's have achievements with titles and special armors and unique item rewards that you earn based on how much you spend in real cash." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ototo.3214 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 I'm...somewhat opposed to loot boxes, but it really depends. I'm typically fine with it if what you are getting from them can still be traded or sold, like pokemon trading cards and even most items from black lion chests. What I'm not ok with is when loot boxes are used to basically force you to gamble. HoTS and, I assume, Overwatch were like this, no clue if they still are cause I haven't played in a while but they made it basically impossible to just buy a skin you wanted. You had to buy loot boxes and either hope it dropped (and it probably wouldn't because most of the stuff in there was worthless crap) or save up a currency that you only occasionally got from the boxes to then buy the thing you wanted. And you couldn't even trade skins you didn't want for something you did. At least with trading cards irl, you can trade a card with someone for something you want. GW2 doesn't have much of this issue, though they may have to change a few things about the blc if this is passed. But I'm honestly all for it crushing this stupid exploitative bs that's been getting a pass for the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgerrule.8739 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 It’s not just legality of gambling at the root of the issue. It’s the legality of shady business practices that other games use to get people to buy something that is rng based. Anet doesn’t do what other companies do and force them down your throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"dodgerrule.8739" said: > Anet doesn’t do what other companies do and force them down your throat. And indeed, putting them in the same league as companies like EA would be ridiculous. I have not done business with that Destroyer of Franchises in many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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