Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > There are more reveals than just scrapper f5 though. Warrior(spell breaker has 2) 3 if you include "on my mark!", engie still has lock on, rev has a reveal on glint, core nec has a reveal in shroud? Ranger has "sic em!" Dh has a reveal. True some are not really reliable but with them + painters and traps if you really wanted to reveal the thief you should be able to unless there isn't many of you in the keep looking for it. > > > > > > > > > > Can you use those w/o actually targeting and being in range of the invisible teef? If not then these many options are garbage. > > > > > > > > Maybe people will just need to adapt? > > > > > > I suppose you could end every thread by saying you should adapt. I adapt by closing my eyes and placing aoe everywhere in the hopes I hit something mostly leading to my death or the teef resetting and the rare reaper shroud 4 spin to win on a downed ally for a kill on the stealth attempted finish by the teef. > > > > Maybe it would just be better to allow him to run around the keep on a mount? I guess that would be good. > > Sure, that would help me to find him much easier if he would mount up. That is true. Well, since they have added this I guess that means it was as Anet intended the game to be. aDapT oR dON’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blockhead Magee.3092 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 We ask for balance. Anet delivers..... something they call balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"Samug.6512" said: > > @"TenthLife.5724" said: > > Found one in our t3 keep, killed it. 2 mins later he/she/it was back inside now with an omega. Killed it again, next time it brought a load of friends so we lost the keep. Not really any good way to detect them as if they really want to your stealth uptime is nuts. Just saying. > > The only clue there's a thief inside is occasional Deadeye audio line, and this game isn't designed to give audio clues so you can't even tell where is it coming from. It's ridiculous. The only stealths that don't have a visual tell are Silent Scope (2s, bound to endurance), their heal (2-6s), and their Steal/Mark (3s, mark requires target in range). Granted that's a long stealth uptime for using all those skills, but these are not enough to keep up permastealth alone. Someone who is vigilantly hunting a perma stealthing Thief will be able to throw a target painter (gimungous radius) on the visual tells from smoke fields or stealth utilities. Once marked the Thief will be forced to leave the keep or die, as they'd have skills already on cooldown and little to no endurance for DE dodge stealths. DE can hide their Sniper's Cover smoke field in a wall, but even then it has a very audible queue that will direct you to the DE. Once marked did they: A: Shortbow away? Congratulations, this is not a DE, and thus they need to use their incredibly visible stealth utilities or smoke fields much more often, making successfully using target painters effortless. Go have a duel and see if you were worthy of kicking them out of your keep. B: Shadowstep away as a DE after marked/revealed? This is pretty much their only gap making tool available, as they're most likely low on initiative, and can only DR twice in a row anyway, unless the *stars have aligned and you are hunting a Permastealth DE that is using Shadow Arts AND Trickery.* Can you not catch up to that? Then you're probably playing a necromancer and have no business trying to chase anyone anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > Well, since they have added this I guess that means it was as Anet intended the game to be. > > aDapT oR dON’t. Pretty much this. Like in most things, in this case thief players will defend it and say it's balanced and claim that people who play the other 8 professions, who complain about it, are wrong. Around and around we go. But in the end, who cares? So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... Oh noes, mah war score? The only keeps that matter are your garrison, and only once they tier up for the waypoint, and I'm sorry, if a stealth class ninja caps your garrison, you deserved to lose it. As for the keep they flipped, easy 1000 WXP to flip it again in 5mins. Also, all 3 servers are allowed to run Mesmer/thief roamers, so everyone gets to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... > No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. > Which.... is no different then Mesmers hiding and doing the same thing. Difference is, Mesmers had to be somewhat more sneaky back in the day. Now, there is a second class that can do it. Leave a scout by the Lord. Or in the keep to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offair.2563 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > There are more reveals than just scrapper f5 though. Warrior(spell breaker has 2) 3 if you include "on my mark!", engie still has lock on, rev has a reveal on glint, core nec has a reveal in shroud? Ranger has "sic em!" Dh has a reveal. True some are not really reliable but with them + painters and traps if you really wanted to reveal the thief you should be able to unless there isn't many of you in the keep looking for it. > > > > Can you use those w/o actually targeting and being in range of the invisible teef? If not then these many options are garbage. > > Maybe people will just need to adapt? a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... > > No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. > > > > Which.... is no different then Mesmers hiding and doing the same thing. > > Difference is, Mesmers had to be somewhat more sneaky back in the day. > > Now, there is a second class that can do it. Did Mesmer have perma stealth? No? Did he have shadow melt to counter unveiled? No? Did he have an invisible portal? No? So what could be the problem with the actual theef portal . . . > Leave a scout by the Lord. Or in the keep to watch. . . . to watch what? An invisible theef, placing an invisible portal? The only thing the scout can see is a Mesmer portal popping up at the lord and 2 seconds later the enemy zerg jumping in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... > > > No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. > > > > > > > Which.... is no different then Mesmers hiding and doing the same thing. > > > > Difference is, Mesmers had to be somewhat more sneaky back in the day. > > > > Now, there is a second class that can do it. > Did Mesmer have perma stealth? No? Did he have shadow melt to counter unveiled? No? Did he have an invisible portal? No? So what could be the problem with the actual theef portal . . . > > > Leave a scout by the Lord. Or in the keep to watch. > . . . to watch what? An invisible theef, placing an invisible portal? The only thing the scout can see is a Mesmer portal popping up at the lord and 2 seconds later the enemy zerg jumping in. > Ahh well. Again, it’s been added so this must be how Anet wants the game to be played. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clownmug.8357 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... > > > > No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. > > > > > > > > > > Which.... is no different then Mesmers hiding and doing the same thing. > > > > > > Difference is, Mesmers had to be somewhat more sneaky back in the day. > > > > > > Now, there is a second class that can do it. > > Did Mesmer have perma stealth? No? Did he have shadow melt to counter unveiled? No? Did he have an invisible portal? No? So what could be the problem with the actual theef portal . . . > > > > > Leave a scout by the Lord. Or in the keep to watch. > > . . . to watch what? An invisible theef, placing an invisible portal? The only thing the scout can see is a Mesmer portal popping up at the lord and 2 seconds later the enemy zerg jumping in. > > > > Ahh well. Again, it’s been added so this must be how Anet wants the game to be played. ? Or it could be just how Karl wants to play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 > @"Clownmug.8357" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... > > > > > No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which.... is no different then Mesmers hiding and doing the same thing. > > > > > > > > Difference is, Mesmers had to be somewhat more sneaky back in the day. > > > > > > > > Now, there is a second class that can do it. > > > Did Mesmer have perma stealth? No? Did he have shadow melt to counter unveiled? No? Did he have an invisible portal? No? So what could be the problem with the actual theef portal . . . > > > > > > > Leave a scout by the Lord. Or in the keep to watch. > > > . . . to watch what? An invisible theef, placing an invisible portal? The only thing the scout can see is a Mesmer portal popping up at the lord and 2 seconds later the enemy zerg jumping in. > > > > > > > Ahh well. Again, it’s been added so this must be how Anet wants the game to be played. ? > > Or it could be just how Karl wants to play the game. Ooo! Now there is a thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... > > > No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. > > > > > > > Which.... is no different then Mesmers hiding and doing the same thing. > > > > Difference is, Mesmers had to be somewhat more sneaky back in the day. > > > > Now, there is a second class that can do it. > Did Mesmer have perma stealth? No? Did he have shadow melt to counter unveiled? No? Did he have an invisible portal? No? So what could be the problem with the actual theef portal . . . > > > Leave a scout by the Lord. Or in the keep to watch. > . . . to watch what? An invisible theef, placing an invisible portal? The only thing the scout can see is a Mesmer portal popping up at the lord and 2 seconds later the enemy zerg jumping in. > To be fair, there was no where near the amount of reveal when mesmers use to hide and that was way before the red dots (spotted) some mesmers even have thieves stealthily them sometimes, but not all. PU torch and that utility was enough stealth uptime back in the day and they were normally dire condi mesmers so were pretty tanky as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > To be fair, there was no where near the amount of reveal when mesmers use to hide and that was way before the red dots (spotted) some mesmers even have thieves stealthily them sometimes, but not all. PU torch and that utility was enough stealth uptime back in the day and they were normally dire condi mesmers so were pretty tanky as well. Thats true, and thats why Anet invented unveil traps, 5 min marked after a keep is flipped, individual unveil skills etc. > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > Ahh well. Again, it’s been added so this must be how Anet wants the game to be played. ? I don't think so. Because many game developers do not want to provide a permantent good balance. Only for true competitive E-sports. From time to time devs just add overpowered cheese gimp stuff on purpose, like theef portal, just to bring back ppl to that game mode. "Have you heared about that freakin new shit?" "Ah great, lets try it and exploit the shit out of it!" After a while, the devs swing the nerf hammer. Thats just a common cycle of gaming "balance" nowadays imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > To be fair, there was no where near the amount of reveal when mesmers use to hide and that was way before the red dots (spotted) some mesmers even have thieves stealthily them sometimes, but not all. PU torch and that utility was enough stealth uptime back in the day and they were normally dire condi mesmers so were pretty tanky as well. > Thats true, and thats why Anet invented unveil traps, 5 min marked after a keep is flipped, individual unveil skills etc. > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > Ahh well. Again, it’s been added so this must be how Anet wants the game to be played. ? > I don't think so. Because many game developers do not want to provide a permantent good balance. Only for true competitive E-sports. Sometimes devs just add overpowered cheese kitten stuff like theef portal on purpose, just to bring back ppl to that game mode. > > **"Have you heared about that freakin new kitten?"** > **"Ah great, lets try it and exploit the kitten out of it!"** > You mean the kitten like as in the Warclaw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > To be fair, there was no where near the amount of reveal when mesmers use to hide and that was way before the red dots (spotted) some mesmers even have thieves stealthily them sometimes, but not all. PU torch and that utility was enough stealth uptime back in the day and they were normally dire condi mesmers so were pretty tanky as well. > > Thats true, and thats why Anet invented unveil traps, 5 min marked after a keep is flipped, individual unveil skills etc. > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > Ahh well. Again, it’s been added so this must be how Anet wants the game to be played. ? > > I don't think so. Because many game developers do not want to provide a permantent good balance. Only for true competitive E-sports. Sometimes devs just add overpowered cheese kitten stuff like theef portal on purpose, just to bring back ppl to that game mode. > > > > **"Have you heared about that freakin new kitten?"** > > **"Ah great, lets try it and exploit the kitten out of it!"** > > > You mean the kitten like as in the Warclaw? > > Absolutely! ;) There's no better way to entertain the crowd, than to add OP stuff from time to time, for a limited duration, that even a low-skilled casual can use to have a good day. This also gives new challenges for the high-skilled hardcore WvWlers, so I agree with you to a degree. There are hardcore WvWlers, that will be able to adapt to lesser skilled players, that use this kitten. So its a challenge, and some will like to be challenged by this cheese, kind of a win-win for a short duration. Nonetheless, for my personal flavour I'd like to see the nerf hammer hit sooner than later on this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Oh man another problem with stealth, who woulda thunk. Giving the class with the most stealth in the game a group portal, surely that wouldn't be a problem. I'm sure eventually they'll just make watch tower usable in keeps now to fix the problem without fixing the actual problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 > @"XenesisII.1540" said: > Oh man another problem with stealth, who woulda thunk. > Giving the class with the most stealth in the game a group portal, surely that wouldn't be a problem. > I'm sure eventually they'll just make watch tower usable in keeps now to fix the problem without fixing the actual problem. > “Keep the Watch” New tactic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior Xsr.1672 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 It's a bad joke trying to find and kill them. Near impossible. I have no idea what the Anet team was thinking. It's a punch in the gut to everyone in WvW. :s SMH!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior Xsr.1672 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 > I'm sure eventually they'll just make watch tower usable in keeps now to fix the problem without fixing the actual problem. Doesn't it take an hour claimed to be able to use the Watchtower tactic to begin with? lol > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 > @"Warrior Xsr.1672" said: > It's a bad joke trying to find and kill them. Near impossible. I have no idea what the Anet team was thinking. It's a punch in the gut to everyone in WvW. :s SMH!!! People actually like to scout at 1 point and now it's more important then ever. With the tools available people still don't bother to use half and if that fails at least you can report the portal(s) which do have a visual tell tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oogabooga.3812 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... > > > > No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. > > > > > > > > > > Which.... is no different then Mesmers hiding and doing the same thing. > > > > > > Difference is, Mesmers had to be somewhat more sneaky back in the day. > > > > > > Now, there is a second class that can do it. > > Did Mesmer have perma stealth? No? Did he have shadow melt to counter unveiled? No? Did he have an invisible portal? No? So what could be the problem with the actual theef portal . . . > > > > > Leave a scout by the Lord. Or in the keep to watch. > > . . . to watch what? An invisible theef, placing an invisible portal? The only thing the scout can see is a Mesmer portal popping up at the lord and 2 seconds later the enemy zerg jumping in. > > > > Ahh well. Again, it’s been added so this must be how Anet wants the game to be played. ? I am part of the problem. ? I felt like a secret agent running around the inner t3 keep while scouting the scouters, hiding in the broom closet again when EWP was pulled on our first attempt, only to resume scouting the scouters again as they tracked our group movement around the keep. When the scouts finally were distracted elsewhere, we did a 5-man successful infiltration on our 2nd try. Was worth losing all participation for that half hour of crawling through the air ducts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @"Warrior Xsr.1672" said: > > It's a bad joke trying to find and kill them. Near impossible. I have no idea what the Anet team was thinking. It's a punch in the gut to everyone in WvW. :s SMH!!! > > People actually like to scout at 1 point and now it's more important then ever. With the tools available people still don't bother to use half and if that fails at least you can report the portal(s) which do have a visual tell tale. Report portals? Hahaha... Last night I was on EB (first time in a month I think, who even plays there) and 5 reds captured the camp south of klovan. No one says anything. They expand to 7ish and stay at klovan, farming the 2-3 "defending" it... Over an entire tick. It wasnt until I had to say like "*Do people on the map not notice a tower thats been contested for the last 3+ minutes?!*" that 15+ instantly crawled out from their hiding places and easily took them out. People dont see, people dont report. And you want them to look for portals, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @"Warrior Xsr.1672" said: > > > It's a bad joke trying to find and kill them. Near impossible. I have no idea what the Anet team was thinking. It's a punch in the gut to everyone in WvW. :s SMH!!! > > > > People actually like to scout at 1 point and now it's more important then ever. With the tools available people still don't bother to use half and if that fails at least you can report the portal(s) which do have a visual tell tale. > Report portals? Hahaha... > > Last night I was on EB (first time in a month I think, who even plays there) and 5 reds captured the camp south of klovan. No one says anything. They expand to 7ish and stay at klovan, farming the 2-3 "defending" it... Over an entire tick. It wasnt until I had to say like "*Do people on the map not notice a tower thats been contested for the last 3+ minutes?!*" that 15+ instantly crawled out from their hiding places and easily took them out. > > People dont see, people dont report. > > And you want them to look for portals, lol. Well then they lose shit then don't they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 > @"Oogabooga.3812" said: > > Was worth losing all participation for that half hour of crawling through the air ducts. Not going to lie, this made me smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 > @"Oogabooga.3812" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > So they flip a paper keep 5 minutes later... > > > > > No, they hide in T3 structures after their zerg breached a wall or door and lost the fight. After some minutes theef ports his buddies directly to the lord. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which.... is no different then Mesmers hiding and doing the same thing. > > > > > > > > Difference is, Mesmers had to be somewhat more sneaky back in the day. > > > > > > > > Now, there is a second class that can do it. > > > Did Mesmer have perma stealth? No? Did he have shadow melt to counter unveiled? No? Did he have an invisible portal? No? So what could be the problem with the actual theef portal . . . > > > > > > > Leave a scout by the Lord. Or in the keep to watch. > > > . . . to watch what? An invisible theef, placing an invisible portal? The only thing the scout can see is a Mesmer portal popping up at the lord and 2 seconds later the enemy zerg jumping in. > > > > > > > Ahh well. Again, it’s been added so this must be how Anet wants the game to be played. ? > > I am part of the problem. ? > > I felt like a secret agent running around the inner t3 keep while scouting the scouters, hiding in the broom closet again when EWP was pulled on our first attempt, only to resume scouting the scouters again as they tracked our group movement around the keep. > > When the scouts finally were distracted elsewhere, we did a 5-man successful infiltration on our 2nd try. > > Was worth losing all participation for that half hour of crawling through the air ducts. Nice!! I mean it’s a legit strategy. There was less outrage over the exploits into keeps by toons and by the mount. What you are doing is using a play style that everyone else has access to, in order to keep a server... busy. Well done! Oh... I should be playing again in a few days... So.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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