Will GW2 survive as NCSoft's second least profitable title?

[Goettel.4389]

Begging the question.

[Acheron.4731]

To be honest...if NCSOFT hadn't stepped in ANET may still have dedicated teams for 'other' projects

[Tiviana.2650]

> @"Acheron.4731" said:

> To be honest...if NCSOFT hadn't stepped in ANET may still have dedicated teams for 'other' projects

 

TBH we have no idea what was going on. No idea what these projects were or even if they were all anets ideas.

[Trise.2865]

> @"OctopusX.7185" said:

> Maybe stop wasting NCsoft's money on useless projects that will never see a light?

 

Except ANet didn't do that. NCSoft did, using ANet's resources and personnel, according to the [original article](https://kotaku.com/guild-wars-2-developer-arenanet-plans-for-mass-layoffs-1832799804 "original article") and followup commentary.

[Firebeard.1746]

I can tell from NCsoft's history that they really have no clue what they're doing and don't understand the MMO market.

 

1) MMOs are a marathon. Not a sprint. Look at wildstar vs FFXIV, BDO and ESO. All of them had decent or successful launches then rapid declines. NCsoft started pulling the plug instead of adding needed direction and fixing the actual issues with the game. When has a single ncsoft MMO had a massive graphics or engine update like WoW to keep it up to date? Why is there even a lineage 2? That should have been a lineage update with expansion like hype. Dividing your player base in general is bad.

 

2) they have 0 respect for their player base. CoH's shutdown is inexcusable. It was making a profit. The reason they shut it down was because they had 2 other projects coming out they didn't want it competing with. Hoping to siphon players to other MMOs. To kitten with all the players' effort and money invested. Heck the players were so dedicated they were funding kickstarter campaigns and even sending baked goods to headquarters to get their game back online. They still said no. Dedicated players like that are the goose that lays the golden eggs and they kitten ate it. They destroyed they players' investments in their characters and destroyed their communities built in game.

 

I have 0 confidence in their ability to understand what an MMO is and support a vibrant game and/or community.

[Acheron.4731]

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > To be honest...if NCSOFT hadn't stepped in ANET may still have dedicated teams for 'other' projects

>

> TBH we have no idea what was going on. No idea what these projects were or even if they were all anets ideas.

 

But we do know they were not directly linked to GW2 plans..that is why I was saying NCSOFT may not be the 'bad guy'

Not trying to start an argument...back to topic

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"OctopusX.7185" said:

> > Maybe stop wasting NCsoft's money on useless projects that will never see a light?

>

> Source?

 

The hundred or so people laid off that weren't working on GW2?

 

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> I can tell from NCsoft's history that they really have no clue what they're doing and don't understand the MMO market.

 

Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

 

LOL

 

 

[Tiviana.2650]

> @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > > To be honest...if NCSOFT hadn't stepped in ANET may still have dedicated teams for 'other' projects

> >

> > TBH we have no idea what was going on. No idea what these projects were or even if they were all anets ideas.

>

> But we do know they were not directly linked to GW2 plans..that is why I was saying NCSOFT may not be the 'bad guy'

> Not trying to start an argument...back to topic

 

I wouldnt be so sure, NCsoft is the boss, they may well have had them working on something, then scrapped it. Regardless of what game companies say, they really only have limited say so in what they can do. They all have to report back to the boss company. There is talk of GW2 going mobile , i am not a fan of that, nor am i a fan of porting to consoles and mixing those players into the game with pc players. PC players have a huge advantage in pvp against console players.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

>

> LOL

>

>

 

They're not running it though. It seems like when they get involved everything blows up. They're a publisher that knows how to flip a buck. Any credit to maintaining player base falls solely on the subsidiaries. I guess i'm not super familiar with blade and soul or lineage but every other game owned was indirectly owned by acquisitions.

[Acheron.4731]

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > > @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > > > To be honest...if NCSOFT hadn't stepped in ANET may still have dedicated teams for 'other' projects

> > >

> > > TBH we have no idea what was going on. No idea what these projects were or even if they were all anets ideas.

> >

> > But we do know they were not directly linked to GW2 plans..that is why I was saying NCSOFT may not be the 'bad guy'

> > Not trying to start an argument...back to topic

>

> I wouldnt be so sure, NCsoft is the boss, they may well have had them working on something, then scrapped it. Regardless of what game companies say, they really only have limited say so in what they can do. They all have to report back to the boss company. There is talk of GW2 going mobile , i am not a fan of that, nor am i a fan of porting to consoles and mixing those players into the game with pc players. PC players have a huge advantage in pvp against console players.

 

I agree. I just like to know that ANET is dedicated to and working directly on this version of GW2...makes me feel like the years and work you put in to a game aren't getting swept under a rug somewhere.

[Tiviana.2650]

> @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > > > @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > > > > To be honest...if NCSOFT hadn't stepped in ANET may still have dedicated teams for 'other' projects

> > > >

> > > > TBH we have no idea what was going on. No idea what these projects were or even if they were all anets ideas.

> > >

> > > But we do know they were not directly linked to GW2 plans..that is why I was saying NCSOFT may not be the 'bad guy'

> > > Not trying to start an argument...back to topic

> >

> > I wouldnt be so sure, NCsoft is the boss, they may well have had them working on something, then scrapped it. Regardless of what game companies say, they really only have limited say so in what they can do. They all have to report back to the boss company. There is talk of GW2 going mobile , i am not a fan of that, nor am i a fan of porting to consoles and mixing those players into the game with pc players. PC players have a huge advantage in pvp against console players.

>

> I agree. I just like to know that ANET is dedicated to and working directly on this version of GW2...makes me feel like the years and work you put in to a game aren't getting swept under a rug somewhere.

 

Thats something every gamer hopes. In the end we have to remember, we dont own any of it, i invested thousands into mmos, not to mention the time investment. The thought of them shutting down gave me nightmares, in the end i finally had to accept that all that time and money means nothing, that i didnt own one dang pixel. Game companies that play their own games and are invested in them are the ones that try their best to keep the game going, and fun. But in the end the suits have the say, which is why i will never invest like that again in a game.

[Danikat.8537]

For what it's worth NCSoft have owned Arenanet since before Guild Wars 1 was released - 17 years now. (Anet only existed for 2 years as an independent company and in that time they didn't release anything but presumably did enough work on GW1 to convince NCSoft they were worth buying and funding for a further 3 years until the game was released.)

 

This isn't a new company who has stepped in to change how things are done, NCSoft have been in charge since before any of us ever heard of Guild Wars. From my perspective that means any concerns about whether they'd commit to Anet long-term or support an existing product are pretty irrelevant now because they're already doing that and have been for years and any impact they'd have on the development has already happened.

 

I understand why people distrust NCSoft but speculating about how they might affect GW2's development seems pointless - the entire game _and it's predecessor_ were built with NCSoft in charge so you have your answer - if Anet develop GW2 as NCSoft want them to then we'll have exactly the game we have now because that is exactly what has happened.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

> >

> > LOL

> >

> >

>

> They're not running it though. It seems like when they get involved everything blows up. They're a publisher that knows how to flip a buck. Any credit to maintaining player base falls solely on the subsidiaries. I guess i'm not super familiar with blade and soul or lineage but every other game owned was indirectly owned by acquisitions.

 

Yeah ... the success of the game has NOTHING to do with what Anet does ... they have simply been blowing things up for 7 years. Completely incompetent. The games they makes are successful DESPITE what they do.

 

Same with GW1 ... just a long history of blowing it all up ... for over a decade.

 

/SURE!!!!

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

> >

> > LOL

> >

> >

>

> They're not running it though. It seems like when they get involved everything blows up. They're a publisher that knows how to flip a buck. Any credit to maintaining player base falls solely on the subsidiaries. I guess i'm not super familiar with blade and soul or lineage but every other game owned was indirectly owned by acquisitions.

 

I don't think that it is reasonable to claim that the creator and operator of one of the most popular MMOs of all time, Lineage, doesn't know what they are doing in the genre.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

> > >

> > > LOL

> > >

> > >

> >

> > They're not running it though. It seems like when they get involved everything blows up. They're a publisher that knows how to flip a buck. Any credit to maintaining player base falls solely on the subsidiaries. I guess i'm not super familiar with blade and soul or lineage but every other game owned was indirectly owned by acquisitions.

>

> I don't think that it is reasonable to claim that the creator and operator of one of the most popular MMOs of all time, Lineage, doesn't know what they are doing in the genre.

 

Agree.. I think I would put a heck of lot more faith that NC Soft has a better idea and understanding of their products, the market they operate within, rather than some random " I know bestest" on the interweebs.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

> > >

> > > LOL

> > >

> > >

> >

> > They're not running it though. It seems like when they get involved everything blows up. They're a publisher that knows how to flip a buck. Any credit to maintaining player base falls solely on the subsidiaries. I guess i'm not super familiar with blade and soul or lineage but every other game owned was indirectly owned by acquisitions.

>

> I don't think that it is reasonable to claim that the creator and operator of one of the most popular MMOs of all time, Lineage, doesn't know what they are doing in the genre.

 

It depends on your perspective. If you were a shareholder, you 'd obviously be happy with the success of Lineage and Ncsoft's other profitable franchises. If you were a Korean/Asian player you'd also be happy otherwise you wouldn't still be playing and paying those games.

 

But if you are a "western" player, the success of Lineage and company means nothing to you. Because those other NcSoft games built that profitability on the backs of whales ,who are not as adverse to p2w money-gouging, as western audiences are.

 

The criteria of a game's success are often not the same between a corporation/studio and players. And they shouldn't be.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

> > > >

> > > > LOL

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > They're not running it though. It seems like when they get involved everything blows up. They're a publisher that knows how to flip a buck. Any credit to maintaining player base falls solely on the subsidiaries. I guess i'm not super familiar with blade and soul or lineage but every other game owned was indirectly owned by acquisitions.

> >

> > I don't think that it is reasonable to claim that the creator and operator of one of the most popular MMOs of all time, Lineage, doesn't know what they are doing in the genre.

>

> It depends on your perspective. If you were a shareholder, you 'd obviously be happy with the success of Lineage and Ncsoft's other profitable franchises. If you were a Korean/Asian player you'd also be happy otherwise you wouldn't still be playing and paying those games.

>

> But if you are a "western" player, the success of Lineage and company means nothing to you. Because those other NcSoft games built that profitability on the backs of whales ,who are not as adverse to p2w money-gouging, as western audiences are.

>

> The criteria of a game's success are often not the same between a corporation/studio and players. And they shouldn't be.

 

I don't think from ANY perspective can someone claim Anet doesn't know what they are doing. That's just nonsense. Maybe they don't make all the right decisions and players don't like everything they do, but the poster is just being sensational. They certainly know enough to make games that people play and enjoy for many years. That's certainly not an indication they don't know what they are doing. It's simply not possible for this game to exist if Anet didn't know what they were doing.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Who would have thought that so many financial analyst, game designers and cant forget about psychics play gw2.

[fixit.7189]

should do a bungie and become their own masters.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

> > > > >

> > > > > LOL

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > They're not running it though. It seems like when they get involved everything blows up. They're a publisher that knows how to flip a buck. Any credit to maintaining player base falls solely on the subsidiaries. I guess i'm not super familiar with blade and soul or lineage but every other game owned was indirectly owned by acquisitions.

> > >

> > > I don't think that it is reasonable to claim that the creator and operator of one of the most popular MMOs of all time, Lineage, doesn't know what they are doing in the genre.

> >

> > It depends on your perspective. If you were a shareholder, you 'd obviously be happy with the success of Lineage and Ncsoft's other profitable franchises. If you were a Korean/Asian player you'd also be happy otherwise you wouldn't still be playing and paying those games.

> >

> > But if you are a "western" player, the success of Lineage and company means nothing to you. Because those other NcSoft games built that profitability on the backs of whales ,who are not as adverse to p2w money-gouging, as western audiences are.

> >

> > The criteria of a game's success are often not the same between a corporation/studio and players. And they shouldn't be.

>

> I don't think from ANY perspective can someone claim Anet doesn't know what they are doing. That's just nonsense. Maybe they don't make all the right decisions and players don't like everything they do, but the poster is just being sensational. They certainly know enough to make games that people play and enjoy for many years. That's certainly not an indication they don't know what they are doing. It's simply not possible for this game to exist if Anet didn't know what they were doing.

 

My comment was mainly aimed at NCsoft and their popular properties as seen in that quarterly report. From the little I know Anet did things their own way with GW2 and that's the reason its a bit different than those other MMOs. That, alongside the fact it's aimed at the western audience.

[Brother.1504]

Is this another gw2 is dying thing?

[Knighthonor.4061]

I suspect LW5 is a pre lead up for the next Expansion announcement like Hot had. When people beat it and see that reveal the hype is going to spike up and nothing NCsoft can say about that other than show more respect.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> I dug through NCsoft's financial records and noticed that HoT had the lowest historical quarter not the one right before the layoffs (and sales went up the quarter after the layoff with the GW2 cash shop). This makes me kind of worried. Also NCsoft doesn't really focus on improving existing products, it usually likes to see new ones. And it wants to see them succeed first and foremost in Korea (see CoH's history).

>

> I just am worried this game won't evolve how it should with a company that doesn't respect individual player's time investment or communities built inside their games. How can Anet get NCsoft to be hands off at the very least?

>

> Most of my impressions about how NCsoft functions are based off of Nerd Slayer's death of a game analysis on CoH and wildstar.

 

Again with the financial doom and gloom

 

Let's take a look at the mmorpgs that were cancelled by NCSoft. Let's start with Tabula Rasa:

Tabula Rasa was released in Q4 2007 and was shut down Q4 2008 (lasted one year). It went free to play in January 2019 and closed in February, but the actual game stopped making money after Q4 2008.

Q4 2007 (release): 5019, Q1 2008: 1870, Q2 2008: 2007, Q3 2008: 1756, Q4 2008: 1484 (was in the "other" category)

In a year, TR made 12136 that's less than how much GW2 makes in a single quarter.

 

Let's check City of Heroes, the game "died" in Q2 2012 (last update), termination in Q3 2012

In 2008 CoH made 24217

In 2009 CoH made 6837+6673+5471+3928 = 22909

In 2010 CoH made 3348+3491+5709+3239 = 15787

In 2011 CoH made 3055+2787+2812+3435 = 12087 (Tabular Rasa levels)

In 2012 CoH made 2890+2855+ In Q3/Q4 there was no entry for COH, it appeared in the "other category" with 10219 and 14239, but that included GW1 (which also moved to "Other" at that point. The thing is both CoH and TR were cancelled when they reached the same level of revenue, making in a year a lot less than GW2 earns in a quarter.

 

Now it's time for Wildstar

Wildstar was shut down in Q4 2018, but was considered "dead" earlier. It was released at the end of Q2 2014

2014: 28048, 16007, 5491 (3 quarters in 2014) = 49546

2015: 2593, 2075, 1727, 2668 = 9063

2016: 1282, 2203, 1097, no WS, included in "other" category

 

With the exception of Wildstar that was kept alive even with such low levels the other games were cancelled when they reach really low points.

[Luthan.5236]

Since ArenaNet seems to only have GW1 and GW2 as games - with staff experienced on working specifically on these games ... I guess they wouldn't just shut it down or force them to make other games. "Worst" case they might sell them to another company that has better use. (Like someone not from Korea not focused on asian grind games.)

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Yeah you know ... in business for many years doing online games, creates a game based on appealing to an underserved market, runs it and continues to successfully ... you nailed it ... absolutely no idea what they are doing

> > >

> > > LOL

> > >

> > >

> >

> > They're not running it though. It seems like when they get involved everything blows up. They're a publisher that knows how to flip a buck. Any credit to maintaining player base falls solely on the subsidiaries. I guess i'm not super familiar with blade and soul or lineage but every other game owned was indirectly owned by acquisitions.

>

> Yeah ... the success of the game has NOTHING to do with what Anet does ... they have simply been blowing things up for 7 years. Completely incompetent. The games they makes are successful DESPITE what they do.

>

> Same with GW1 ... just a long history of blowing it all up ... for over a decade.

>

> /SURE!!!!

>

 

Uhm, he's talking about NCSoft,not ArenaNet..?