foste.3098 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 now that the season has begun did anyone encounter any staff daredevils and if so in what rank? I most certainly haven't but i have run in to a fair number of condi s/d daredevils. As an aside, from those encounters i can say that the reason condi dd is over preforming, or at least perceived as such, is due to how deadly ambition works. I say this because before the last balance patch there were no condi daredevils despite the daredevil line having gotten the trait mergers. Condi dd only became popular with deadly arts rework which added another source of damage on a short cooldown to a build that otherwise had ok condi burst and mediocre sustained damage, only being carried by easy access to immobilize which than ensured the on-dodge traits land their damage. Now on to deadly ambition, it is a passive source of poison (arguably the most dangerous condition since it lessens healing) that you cannot avoid. No matter what that trait is procking on you every ~6 sec and you cannot stop it, because unlike other similar traits is has no buff effect on the daredevil that can be dodged; bear in mind that necromancer's plague sending trait used to work like this and it got changed to have an active trigger. So the solution would be to make it apply its stacks if the thief strikes a target in a certain way (from stealth, from behind, with a skill that costs a certain amount if initiative, ect) or to make the trait apply a buff to the thief (think how weakening strikes works) when a certain criteria is met (evade an attack, use a dual attack, interrupt a foe, drop below a certain initiative threshold, ect) that lasts x seconds and makes his next attack apply the poison stacks, meaning that the poison from deadly ambition becomes avoidable adding some nuance to the trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 > @"foste.3098" said: > now that the season has begun did anyone encounter any staff daredevils and if so in what rank? I most certainly haven't but i have run in to a fair number of condi s/d daredevils. > > As an aside, from those encounters i can say that the reason condi dd is over preforming, or at least perceived as such, is due to how deadly ambition works. > I say this because before the last balance patch there were no condi daredevils despite the daredevil line having gotten the trait mergers. Condi dd only became popular with deadly arts rework which added another source of damage on a short cooldown to a build that otherwise had ok condi burst and mediocre sustained damage, only being carried by easy access to immobilize which than ensured the on-dodge traits land their damage. > > Now on to deadly ambition, it is a passive source of poison (arguably the most dangerous condition since it lessens healing) that you cannot avoid. No matter what that trait is procking on you every ~6 sec and you cannot stop it, because unlike other similar traits is has no buff effect on the daredevil that can be dodged; bear in mind that necromancer's plague sending trait used to work like this and it got changed to have an active trigger. > So the solution would be to make it apply its stacks if the thief strikes a target in a certain way (from stealth, from behind, with a skill that costs a certain amount if initiative, ect) or to make the trait apply a buff to the thief (think how weakening strikes works) when a certain criteria is met (evade an attack, use a dual attack, interrupt a foe, drop below a certain initiative threshold, ect) that lasts x seconds and makes his next attack apply the poison stacks, meaning that the poison from deadly ambition becomes avoidable adding some nuance to the trait. I love that they did that with DA. Adds much needed build deversity as ur not stuck with a dagger/bow build. Now u can do a staff or s/d condi build wich adds alot of deversity to players that like condi play. I favor power so dont use the trait much as I like mug more but I can see its appeal. I hope they dont change it personally. Now if only they'd make preparedness baseline,thief would have great build deversity if that happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019  delete teef! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: >  > > delete teef! Thanks for ruining [consume plasma] forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > Let me ask ypu a question: why do you think the the old Anet in Guild Wars 1 didn't bring this Toxic Thief in Guild Wars 1? > > > > Hint: Thief concepts existed long before Guild Wars so the old Anet had all the reasons to bring this Toxic profession to Guild Wars. > > > > So why Guild Wars 2? > > > > What happens when you add Toxic waste into a healthy water? > > > > There is your answer > > > > By adding this Toxic profession to Guild Wars 2, it infected everything. Yes Thief is the main cause of the imbalancing of Profession balances including its designs. The entire balancing revolves around Thief. > > > > Here is the atrocious part of this: the irony.... > > > > The entire game revolves around Toxicity > > > > Toxicity took charge of what was sacred of Guild Wars and poisoned it-It took everything good and beautiful from Guild Wars 1 roots and intentionally destroyed it > > > > In conclusion, Guild Wars 2 is so polluted with Toxicity that asking to remove Thief to nerf Thief will not resolve anything. > > > > Guild Wars 2 is rooted with Toxicity and the only way to remedy it is to completely rework the entire game from the ground up with the complete removal of this Toxic profession. > > > >  > > > > > > > > Yes! it is too late > > > > It's too late folks, instead we should be asking for this game to be reworked including forbidding this Toxic profession from ever entering Guild Wars again > > > > > > Have a good day > > > > > > What are the non-toxic professions? > > p.s. thief is a rework of assassin, it has been with gw2 since 2006. lmao, Thief is nowhere near as coherently designed or balanced within a team-based framework as Assassin was. Even when Assassin was at its most broken (i.e. the early Nightfall Shadow Prison days), it was still not super competitive in certain environments where consistency and pressure were key (which is why it harassed places like AB and FA but its presence fell off to a degree in more organized formats like HA). Thief has no attack cooldowns in a game balanced entirely by cooldowns; that's basically akin to making GW1 Assassin and then removing the "lead-offhand-dual" stipulation for attack progression. Teleporting repeatedly or effortlessly chaining evasion and damage together as Thief generally does is more or less the same as if Assassin could have just walked up to somebody and thrown out Death Blossoms before mixing in a Twisting Fangs after a few attacks; the rest of the skillbar would just be self-preservation utilities or super easy damage to throw out between attacks (oh wow, just like GW2 Thief). Assassin was a glass-cannon ganker who typically needed healer support or a lot of ally pressure on opponents in order to be remotely successful. Thief, by itself, more or less passively counters any sort of opponent timing or positioning and evades while attacking in a game which was never created with a dedicated healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > I am really surprised that anet didn't even see this coming with the deadly arts changes, they left panic strike alone. I managed to get 3.5k poison ticks with core p/d just spamming body shot. Get rid of panic strike. > >Seems like as classes are shaved down making thief viable somewhat in a fight 1v1 players now want thief taken down a peg lmao do u thief players actually want to always be decapper as a role? Since GW2 is mostly designed entirely based on flavor rather than functional elements, there's no reason why any other class could have gotten "Press to teleport 900 range; no cooldown," and even though such an ability is ridiculously overpowered, it's still not enough of a foundation on which to properly base an entire class (and it shows in how janky and tacked-on the Steal mechanic has always been). Point is, I agree that a class deserves to be more than literally "watch minimap; go to point with no players nearby," but the fact that you counter someone criticizing a degenerate passive by saying "Yeah, well, why not also just rip Infiltrator's Arrow out of the game too then??" really says a lot about how a lot of people (but mostly you in particular in this specific case) tend to classify Thief: it's so often just "Shortbow 5 The Class" when it comes any sort of truly unique utility that it could bring to a team, and that's just really not enough to justify its existence (and if you think I'm just picking on you or Thief players in general, I could pretty quickly tailor the same argument for nearly every other class in the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 > @"foste.3098" said: > now that the season has begun did anyone encounter any staff daredevils and if so in what rank? I most certainly haven't but i have run in to a fair number of condi s/d daredevils. > It's no so prevalent in solo/duo ranked. It's in ATs where this stuff is getting abused. The reason is because lately, to carry games in ranked, you need to be able to kill fast and create snowball. I'm not so sure quite exactly what changed, but builds that trollol for 1v2s that have less damage are no longer able to carry in the way that they used to. Holosmiths, Spellbreakers, Herald, Condi DrDs, GOOD Deadeyes, some GOOD Weavers & Mirages, and then of course a GOOD FB/Scourge duo, are what is working well in ranked play. I actually haven't seen a single Staff DrD at all this season. In ATs though, a single Staff DrD can position itself in just the right place with coordinated team play to make that 1v2 distraction count. A great example is trolling Tranquility while your team outmans the nodes above. This kind of stuff is not so reliable to do in solo/duo ranked. You'll always have kids who disregard what your job/purpose is as the Staff DrD, and rather than leave you to your 1v2s, some goof always walks over and tries to +. When that happens, you completely lose the purpose of a build that trolls 1v2s and it denies you of your strength in the match. The Staff DrD is certainly not useless in 2v2+ but once it turns 2v2+, the Staff DrD would have been better off as a Holosmith or a Herald as example. I feel this effect each and every time I run my Druid. I'll bait an ideal 1v2 such as vs. a FB and his Scourge, and I"ll catch them in a situation where they don't want to split from each other or sacrifice the node, so they end up on a node 2v1ing me. This is a perfect situation for a 1v2 trollol, where I keep the opponent's team fight out of mid and off on a side node, while my team is advantage 4v3ing mid and the other side node. But lo and behold, as soon as I see my team cap the other two nodes, here comes some guy or two rotating to me to ruin the cluth chess move, and then the nodes they just capped start getting decapped. <- It's reasons like that, probably why not many are Staff DrDing in ranked. Spamming Condi DrD damage is just more useful when you're being put in matches with Gold 1/Silver 3 players who are not able to recognize when they should leave you alone in a 1v2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"foste.3098" said: > > now that the season has begun did anyone encounter any staff daredevils and if so in what rank? I most certainly haven't but i have run in to a fair number of condi s/d daredevils. > > > > It's no so prevalent in solo/duo ranked. It's in ATs where this stuff is getting abused. The reason is because lately, to carry games in ranked, you need to be able to kill fast and create snowball. I'm not so sure quite exactly what changed, but builds that trollol for 1v2s that have less damage are no longer able to carry in the way that they used to. Holosmiths, Spellbreakers, Herald, Condi DrDs, GOOD Deadeyes, some GOOD Weavers & Mirages, and then of course a GOOD FB/Scourge duo, are what is working well in ranked play. > > I actually haven't seen a single Staff DrD at all this season. In ATs though, a single Staff DrD can position itself in just the right place with coordinated team play to make that 1v2 distraction count. A great example is trolling Tranquility while your team outmans the nodes above. This kind of stuff is not so reliable to do in solo/duo ranked. You'll always have kids who disregard what your job/purpose is as the Staff DrD, and rather than leave you to your 1v2s, some goof always walks over and tries to +. When that happens, you completely lose the purpose of a build that trolls 1v2s and it denies you of your strength in the match. The Staff DrD is certainly not useless in 2v2+ but once it turns 2v2+, the Staff DrD would have been better off as a Holosmith or a Herald as example. I feel this effect each and every time I run my Druid. I'll bait an ideal 1v2 such as vs. a FB and his Scourge, and I"ll catch them in a situation where they don't want to split from each other or sacrifice the node, so they end up on a node 2v1ing me. This is a perfect situation for a 1v2 trollol, where I keep the opponent's team fight out of mid and off on a side node, while my team is advantage 4v3ing mid and the other side node. But lo and behold, as soon as I see my team cap the other two nodes, here comes some guy or two rotating to me to ruin the cluth chess move, and then the nodes they just capped start getting decapped. <- It's reasons like that, probably why not many are Staff DrDing in ranked. Spamming Condi DrD damage is just more useful when you're being put in matches with Gold 1/Silver 3 players who are not able to recognize when they should leave you alone in a 1v2. > Yeah, the coordination aspect makes a big difference. Most ranked teams are used to thieves being pinholed in decapping and ganking roles, and can sometimes be actively _hostile_ to the idea of a thief that's built more for sustain than for glass cannoning. Even if you can get a team to accept that your role and strengths are different to that of the traditional thief, it helps to have voice communication, or at least a pre-arranged signal, so that you can call for help when you realise that you're no longer able to hold the point by yourself. The irony being, of course, that I shifted to one of these builds in part because I've found that the expected thief role _also_ suffers in teams with low coordination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till.6473 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 I die vs thief condi one time at start for look this gameplay and after i farm it. Condi thief is bad for pvp conquest because no mobility and power condi thief is just bad. I prefer un my team ele condi. Theif is so squishy really is not a probleme. Im plat 2 actually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyForgotten.4276 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"Sleepwalker.1398" said: > Anyone play a DrD Pistol/Dagger + SB with thorn runes in pvp? > I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foste.3098 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > _snip_ If that is the case then staff acro will never get nerfed because the automated tournaments, by their nature, don't have a large player base post day 1 of a tourny cycle. And we all know anet likes to balance based on what the community screams about the loudest rather than what's actually off, and at's don't have allot of ppl in them so not enough noise to force a change. (Off topic but i still advocate druid staff trait get a change since it is a hard cc with 0 tell with no way for anyone react to, but since druid is in the septic tank and because no one used that trait in pvp, ergo no complaining about it, it remains as is) On a different note, is a staff 'bunker' daredevil even a big deal considering other classes also have 1 vs 2 stalemate builds? And if so how to address it considering that staff is an underwhelming weapon in pvp/wvw outside very specific niches (zerging, evasion trolling), and how to do so without impacting the pve staff daredevil builds which are not over preforming? Tbh i am for a redesign of staff to something that is more about sticking to a target that is already in melee range to you; think of how dagger pistol excels at staying on a target that is 900 range or less, maybe make staff exceptional at sticking to a target that is 400 range of you, basically make it a weapon that is good at gluing the daredevil in melee with a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"foste.3098" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > _snip_ > > If that is the case then staff acro will never get nerfed because the automated tournaments, by their nature, don't have a large player base post day 1 of a tourny cycle. > And we all know anet likes to balance based on what the community screams about the loudest rather than what's actually off, and at's don't have allot of ppl in them so not enough noise to force a change. > (Off topic but i still advocate druid staff trait get a change since it is a hard cc with 0 tell with no way for anyone react to, but since druid is in the septic tank and because no one used that trait in pvp, ergo no complaining about it, it remains as is) > > On a different note, is a staff 'bunker' daredevil even a big deal considering other classes also have 1 vs 2 stalemate builds? And if so how to address it considering that staff is an underwhelming weapon in pvp/wvw outside very specific niches (zerging, evasion trolling), and how to do so without impacting the pve staff daredevil builds which are not over preforming? > Tbh i am for a redesign of staff to something that is more about sticking to a target that is already in melee range to you; think of how dagger pistol excels at staying on a target that is 900 range or less, maybe make staff exceptional at sticking to a target that is 400 range of you, basically make it a weapon that is good at gluing the daredevil in melee with a target. Oh yeah, it needs fixing for sure. The difference between Staff DrD and other potential 1v2 specs is that other 1v2 specs are doing it through means of 50% face tanking, meaning their resources are limited. They could 1v2 a Core Guard "which is easy to kite" and a bad Ranger let's say, but they couldn't 1v2 a good Holo & Herald. The Staff DrD on the other hand, can quite seriously avoid 90% of all inc attacks and easily easily heal through the damage it does take. The ONLY way to hit that damn build is with attacks that lay down consistent non-breaking pressure, to make sure something hits the DrD. Things like necro wells, rapid fire, ranger LB #5, ect ect. **And actually, for those who were confused as to my choice of Pistol/No Offhand, Repeater on a Thief, the Pistol #3 with no offhand, might actually be the best attack in the game to deal with Staff DrD right now, come to find out. It has a super low 2 init cost and can be spammed for a ridiculously long amount of time before bottoming out on init. The pressure off Repeater is consistent with no animation breaks, so you're guaranteed to land a consistent amount of pressure on the DrD, the most that any build could hope for. Each and every time there is any break in the Staff DrD's dodge/evade frames, the Repeater will land damage. This is a big reason why I started using Pistol/No-Offhand over S/D on a Condi DrD. I would dare say Pistol/No-Offhand actually counters DrD Staff for this reason. This is no LB Ranger vs. Necro type ultra counter, but the Repeater Condi DrD should win the 1v1 vs. Staff DrD, if the Condi DrD knows how to kite. If he can't kill the Staff, Repeater will cull the Staff's node presence and push for a decap at the least.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" Would you mind playing the staff build in ranked and try harding on the side nodes and record it? I mean this goes out to anyone who says it this carry me the LB, unkillable beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"foste.3098" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > _snip_ > > > > If that is the case then staff acro will never get nerfed because the automated tournaments, by their nature, don't have a large player base post day 1 of a tourny cycle. > > And we all know anet likes to balance based on what the community screams about the loudest rather than what's actually off, and at's don't have allot of ppl in them so not enough noise to force a change. > > (Off topic but i still advocate druid staff trait get a change since it is a hard cc with 0 tell with no way for anyone react to, but since druid is in the septic tank and because no one used that trait in pvp, ergo no complaining about it, it remains as is) > > > > On a different note, is a staff 'bunker' daredevil even a big deal considering other classes also have 1 vs 2 stalemate builds? And if so how to address it considering that staff is an underwhelming weapon in pvp/wvw outside very specific niches (zerging, evasion trolling), and how to do so without impacting the pve staff daredevil builds which are not over preforming? > > Tbh i am for a redesign of staff to something that is more about sticking to a target that is already in melee range to you; think of how dagger pistol excels at staying on a target that is 900 range or less, maybe make staff exceptional at sticking to a target that is 400 range of you, basically make it a weapon that is good at gluing the daredevil in melee with a target. > > Oh yeah, it needs fixing for sure. The difference between Staff DrD and other potential 1v2 specs is that other 1v2 specs are doing it through means of 50% face tanking, meaning their resources are limited. They could 1v2 a Core Guard "which is easy to kite" and a bad Ranger let's say, but they couldn't 1v2 a good Holo & Herald. The Staff DrD on the other hand, can quite seriously avoid 90% of all inc attacks and easily easily heal through the damage it does take. The ONLY way to hit that kitten build is with attacks that lay down consistent non-breaking pressure, to make sure something hits the DrD. Things like necro wells, rapid fire, ranger LB #5, ect ect. > > **And actually, for those who were confused as to my choice of Pistol/No Offhand, Repeater on a Thief, the Pistol #3 with no offhand, might actually be the best attack in the game to deal with Staff DrD right now, come to find out. It has a super low 2 init cost and can be spammed for a ridiculously long amount of time before bottoming out on init. The pressure off Repeater is consistent with no animation breaks, so you're guaranteed to land a consistent amount of pressure on the DrD, the most that any build could hope for. Each and every time there is any break in the Staff DrD's dodge/evade frames, the Repeater will land damage. This is a big reason why I started using Pistol/No-Offhand over S/D on a Condi DrD. I would dare say Pistol/No-Offhand actually counters DrD Staff for this reason. This is no LB Ranger vs. Necro type ultra counter, but the Repeater Condi DrD should win the 1v1 vs. Staff DrD, if the Condi DrD knows how to kite. If he can't kill the Staff, Repeater will cull the Staff's node presence and push for a decap at the least.** Do u not main ranger? Is soulbeast not a stronger side noder than staff DD? Why arnt u asking for u class to "get fixed"? Are most known side noders not far superior to staff DD? I mean especially if ur talking about bounding Dodger acro staff build that's been around since DD inception. If ur talking about the DA changes giving staff poison application then the insane evades that acro assists with arnt there or ur running DA and acro with low resources due to lack of trickery. Sounds to me like ur having a tough time urself against staff DD and just crying OP. I agree with post above, u run this magic DD build in ranked vid with actual gameplay not highlights to show us all its dominance. I only bring up the soulbeast up cuz I've played a ton of both staff DD and gs/lb soulbeast and have a way easier time holding nodes and winning 1v1 on soulbeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 @"Trevor Boyer.6524" You may be correct about Repeater being best for a low cost pressure tool but only because of the sheer number of bullets. The damage is pretty low, given the bleed with quickly be cleansed off the evades. I’d worry about being able to do enough damage especially if they take even one healing type trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foste.3098 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Something you said irks me on > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > other 1v2 specs are doing it through means of 50% face tanking, meaning their resources are limited. This would imply that thief has unlimited resources and that his endurance and initiative never runs out which is not true, thief also has resources that disallow for him to 'bunker' eternally. Today i came across a player running a staff evasion bunker build that matches what you are griping about, so after the match i pm'd him and asked about the build and after that we dueled in custom arena. We did this duel over a point, and guess what i won. Now granted i would have lost the point but bear in mind this was a 1 vs 1 and he lost. Against a 2 vs 1 (where the other player knows staff's evasion frames) there would not even be a question to what would happen. The build he used was ok and works but has serious short sides. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAYZlNw2YLsOGJm6WbNbA-z5gfIZqCKVIkwEwWDA So this was the build (i am not sure about the non energy sigils but tbh it is not that important) and the down side is obvious: you forego a 2nd weapon and, because of it, lots of mobility which can be fine since this build is not about decaping as much. Now the rune and amulet choice can be swapped of course, but the reason he used this combo is due to the fact that with low hp and high toughness your abilities that heal do so for a larger % of your max hp and so scholar rune will be active even during fights rather than just at the start. This has an effect that when you engage a off node you do so with high burst, making your opponent think you are on a standard thief build (with a staff) and in so doing make him commit to fighting you when in reality you are hard to kill and thus lock him in a stalemate, if you get +1'ed even better. Due to the reduced mobility i would suggest swapping to speed runes for the extra vit and the kiting potential the über swiftness offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Not even being like a douche when I say this, but seriously, msg in me in-game and 1v1 with Staff DrD vs. this. You'd be pretty surprised. That or just wait to see me in game with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdy.5107 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Typical GW2 player. "Since I cant kill it with MY skill play, it has to be broken! Please nerf it so I can kill it" CRY CRY CRY CRY CRY CRY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"foste.3098" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > _snip_ > > > > > > If that is the case then staff acro will never get nerfed because the automated tournaments, by their nature, don't have a large player base post day 1 of a tourny cycle. > > > And we all know anet likes to balance based on what the community screams about the loudest rather than what's actually off, and at's don't have allot of ppl in them so not enough noise to force a change. > > > (Off topic but i still advocate druid staff trait get a change since it is a hard cc with 0 tell with no way for anyone react to, but since druid is in the septic tank and because no one used that trait in pvp, ergo no complaining about it, it remains as is) > > > > > > On a different note, is a staff 'bunker' daredevil even a big deal considering other classes also have 1 vs 2 stalemate builds? And if so how to address it considering that staff is an underwhelming weapon in pvp/wvw outside very specific niches (zerging, evasion trolling), and how to do so without impacting the pve staff daredevil builds which are not over preforming? > > > Tbh i am for a redesign of staff to something that is more about sticking to a target that is already in melee range to you; think of how dagger pistol excels at staying on a target that is 900 range or less, maybe make staff exceptional at sticking to a target that is 400 range of you, basically make it a weapon that is good at gluing the daredevil in melee with a target. > > > > Oh yeah, it needs fixing for sure. The difference between Staff DrD and other potential 1v2 specs is that other 1v2 specs are doing it through means of 50% face tanking, meaning their resources are limited. They could 1v2 a Core Guard "which is easy to kite" and a bad Ranger let's say, but they couldn't 1v2 a good Holo & Herald. The Staff DrD on the other hand, can quite seriously avoid 90% of all inc attacks and easily easily heal through the damage it does take. The ONLY way to hit that kitten build is with attacks that lay down consistent non-breaking pressure, to make sure something hits the DrD. Things like necro wells, rapid fire, ranger LB #5, ect ect. > > > > **And actually, for those who were confused as to my choice of Pistol/No Offhand, Repeater on a Thief, the Pistol #3 with no offhand, might actually be the best attack in the game to deal with Staff DrD right now, come to find out. It has a super low 2 init cost and can be spammed for a ridiculously long amount of time before bottoming out on init. The pressure off Repeater is consistent with no animation breaks, so you're guaranteed to land a consistent amount of pressure on the DrD, the most that any build could hope for. Each and every time there is any break in the Staff DrD's dodge/evade frames, the Repeater will land damage. This is a big reason why I started using Pistol/No-Offhand over S/D on a Condi DrD. I would dare say Pistol/No-Offhand actually counters DrD Staff for this reason. This is no LB Ranger vs. Necro type ultra counter, but the Repeater Condi DrD should win the 1v1 vs. Staff DrD, if the Condi DrD knows how to kite. If he can't kill the Staff, Repeater will cull the Staff's node presence and push for a decap at the least.** > > Do u not main ranger? Is soulbeast not a stronger side noder than staff DD? Why arnt u asking for u class to "get fixed"? Are most known side noders not far superior to staff DD? I mean especially if ur talking about bounding Dodger acro staff build that's been around since DD inception. If ur talking about the DA changes giving staff poison application then the insane evades that acro assists with arnt there or ur running DA and acro with low resources due to lack of trickery. > Sounds to me like ur having a tough time urself against staff DD and just crying OP. > I agree with post above, u run this magic DD build in ranked vid with actual gameplay not highlights to show us all its dominance. I only bring up the soulbeast up cuz I've played a ton of both staff DD and gs/lb soulbeast and have a way easier time holding nodes and winning 1v1 on soulbeast. 1. Yes I main Ranger, but it's honestly garbage right now in this meta after all the nerfing. Especially with so many condis in play. Core Ranger has shit mobility, Druid is now Renegade tier after Staff 3 nerf, and Soulbeast just isn't cutting it man. You can't brawl as a Soulbeast against all this stuff that's in play right now. 2. No, Soulbeast is no longer a stronger side noder than a Staff DrD. Not sure where you're pulling that from. At the best the Soulbeast can stay alive and hold the node, but neither build would kill each other. The thing is though, a Soulbeast struggles to survive 1v2, a Staff DrD does not. When you're talking sheer ability to hold a node or troll an objective, Staff DrD is definitely better. 3. **Why would you think I was having a hard time against Staff DrD when I have not once said anything in this thread about Staff DrD, outside of "The condi build I am running with Pistol counters Staff DrD"? I have specifically said several times now, that I feel Deadly Arts is overperforming for Condi Thief variants and that I am not concerned with Staff DrD. Keep in mind I have been playing Condi DrD this season.** 4. I feel like your comment about Soulbeast being stronger is coming from a lack of understanding of how to play a Thief. The truth is that Soulbeast and Ranger specs in general, have too many counters in this meta right now. And then on the other hand, Condi DrD builds are really really strong if played correctly. They are definitely capable of 1v1ing anything on equal ground if the Thief player is good at playing safe. The only thing you could say "counters" condi DrDs right now, is maybe DEs, Condi Mirage, Weavers, and FBs. These are the things that you either can't kill or that take so long to kill, that It isn't worth the time spent doing in a conquest match. Everything else you can trash in 1v1s as Condi DrD right now. At least this is what I am experiencing while playing it this season. 5. I have indeed written many threads stating how I feel Ranger specs should be fixed and exactly how to do in balanced fashion. Unfortunately, Arenanet has been very focused on simply nerfing Ranger into the dirt, this last 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 I’d be curious to see your condi Thief @"Trevor Boyer.6524" I also disagree that Deadly Ambition is over performing on a 5 second cooldown. With Potent Poison, Deadly Ambition is an extra 400 damage per second assuming you maintain it by continuing to hit the opponent. That’s three stacks of poison. It’s not that much unless, entirely reasonably, paired with multiple other successfully executed abilities. If you stand in multiple poison gas fields and eat multiple Lotus dodges and eat Swipe well I guess you will lose a lot of health. Not OP. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"foste.3098" said: > now that the season has begun did anyone encounter any staff daredevils and if so in what rank? I most certainly haven't but i have run in to a fair number of condi s/d daredevils. > > As an aside, from those encounters i can say that the reason condi dd is over preforming, or at least perceived as such, is due to how deadly ambition works. > I say this because before the last balance patch there were no condi daredevils despite the daredevil line having gotten the trait mergers. Condi dd only became popular with deadly arts rework which added another source of damage on a short cooldown to a build that otherwise had ok condi burst and mediocre sustained damage, only being carried by easy access to immobilize which than ensured the on-dodge traits land their damage. > > Now on to deadly ambition, it is a passive source of poison (arguably the most dangerous condition since it lessens healing) that you cannot avoid. No matter what that trait is procking on you every ~6 sec and you cannot stop it, because unlike other similar traits is has no buff effect on the daredevil that can be dodged; bear in mind that necromancer's plague sending trait used to work like this and it got changed to have an active trigger. > So the solution would be to make it apply its stacks if the thief strikes a target in a certain way (from stealth, from behind, with a skill that costs a certain amount if initiative, ect) or to make the trait apply a buff to the thief (think how weakening strikes works) when a certain criteria is met (evade an attack, use a dual attack, interrupt a foe, drop below a certain initiative threshold, ect) that lasts x seconds and makes his next attack apply the poison stacks, meaning that the poison from deadly ambition becomes avoidable adding some nuance to the trait. Making my journey through gold rn. Maining sage fb and was put in the unfortunate position of having to cap a point while my team was rolling his team over at far and mid. They get nullified completely if you chase the Condi S/D. They can't do anything but try to run and spam shortbow until they think they can get a gank on you. If you line of sight them/cleanse their big Condi burst they literally fall apart. Any barrier ramp/FB of any kind will basically make the game a 4v5. Get a dedicated mobile class to constantly harass the thief and they basically afk in base lol. It's not horrid at all if you play smart. And that game I had to deal with TWO of those guys while dealing with a mirage on top of it at times. Trust me, smart players will easily get over this meme build. It's fun in unranked tho lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"foste.3098" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > _snip_ > > > > > > > > If that is the case then staff acro will never get nerfed because the automated tournaments, by their nature, don't have a large player base post day 1 of a tourny cycle. > > > > And we all know anet likes to balance based on what the community screams about the loudest rather than what's actually off, and at's don't have allot of ppl in them so not enough noise to force a change. > > > > (Off topic but i still advocate druid staff trait get a change since it is a hard cc with 0 tell with no way for anyone react to, but since druid is in the septic tank and because no one used that trait in pvp, ergo no complaining about it, it remains as is) > > > > > > > > On a different note, is a staff 'bunker' daredevil even a big deal considering other classes also have 1 vs 2 stalemate builds? And if so how to address it considering that staff is an underwhelming weapon in pvp/wvw outside very specific niches (zerging, evasion trolling), and how to do so without impacting the pve staff daredevil builds which are not over preforming? > > > > Tbh i am for a redesign of staff to something that is more about sticking to a target that is already in melee range to you; think of how dagger pistol excels at staying on a target that is 900 range or less, maybe make staff exceptional at sticking to a target that is 400 range of you, basically make it a weapon that is good at gluing the daredevil in melee with a target. > > > > > > Oh yeah, it needs fixing for sure. The difference between Staff DrD and other potential 1v2 specs is that other 1v2 specs are doing it through means of 50% face tanking, meaning their resources are limited. They could 1v2 a Core Guard "which is easy to kite" and a bad Ranger let's say, but they couldn't 1v2 a good Holo & Herald. The Staff DrD on the other hand, can quite seriously avoid 90% of all inc attacks and easily easily heal through the damage it does take. The ONLY way to hit that kitten build is with attacks that lay down consistent non-breaking pressure, to make sure something hits the DrD. Things like necro wells, rapid fire, ranger LB #5, ect ect. > > > > > > **And actually, for those who were confused as to my choice of Pistol/No Offhand, Repeater on a Thief, the Pistol #3 with no offhand, might actually be the best attack in the game to deal with Staff DrD right now, come to find out. It has a super low 2 init cost and can be spammed for a ridiculously long amount of time before bottoming out on init. The pressure off Repeater is consistent with no animation breaks, so you're guaranteed to land a consistent amount of pressure on the DrD, the most that any build could hope for. Each and every time there is any break in the Staff DrD's dodge/evade frames, the Repeater will land damage. This is a big reason why I started using Pistol/No-Offhand over S/D on a Condi DrD. I would dare say Pistol/No-Offhand actually counters DrD Staff for this reason. This is no LB Ranger vs. Necro type ultra counter, but the Repeater Condi DrD should win the 1v1 vs. Staff DrD, if the Condi DrD knows how to kite. If he can't kill the Staff, Repeater will cull the Staff's node presence and push for a decap at the least.** > > > > Do u not main ranger? Is soulbeast not a stronger side noder than staff DD? Why arnt u asking for u class to "get fixed"? Are most known side noders not far superior to staff DD? I mean especially if ur talking about bounding Dodger acro staff build that's been around since DD inception. If ur talking about the DA changes giving staff poison application then the insane evades that acro assists with arnt there or ur running DA and acro with low resources due to lack of trickery. > > Sounds to me like ur having a tough time urself against staff DD and just crying OP. > > I agree with post above, u run this magic DD build in ranked vid with actual gameplay not highlights to show us all its dominance. I only bring up the soulbeast up cuz I've played a ton of both staff DD and gs/lb soulbeast and have a way easier time holding nodes and winning 1v1 on soulbeast. > > 1. Yes I main Ranger, but it's honestly garbage right now in this meta after all the nerfing. Especially with so many condis in play. Core Ranger has kitten mobility, Druid is now Renegade tier after Staff 3 nerf, and Soulbeast just isn't cutting it man. You can't brawl as a Soulbeast against all this stuff that's in play right now. > 2. No, Soulbeast is no longer a stronger side noder than a Staff DrD. Not sure where you're pulling that from. At the best the Soulbeast can stay alive and hold the node, but neither build would kill each other. The thing is though, a Soulbeast struggles to survive 1v2, a Staff DrD does not. When you're talking sheer ability to hold a node or troll an objective, Staff DrD is definitely better. > 3. **Why would you think I was having a hard time against Staff DrD when I have not once said anything in this thread about Staff DrD, outside of "The condi build I am running with Pistol counters Staff DrD"? I have specifically said several times now, that I feel Deadly Arts is overperforming for Condi Thief variants and that I am not concerned with Staff DrD. Keep in mind I have been playing Condi DrD this season.** > 4. I feel like your comment about Soulbeast being stronger is coming from a lack of understanding of how to play a Thief. The truth is that Soulbeast and Ranger specs in general, have too many counters in this meta right now. And then on the other hand, Condi DrD builds are really really strong if played correctly. They are definitely capable of 1v1ing anything on equal ground if the Thief player is good at playing safe. The only thing you could say "counters" condi DrDs right now, is maybe DEs, Condi Mirage, Weavers, and FBs. These are the things that you either can't kill or that take so long to kill, that It isn't worth the time spent doing in a conquest match. Everything else you can trash in 1v1s as Condi DrD right now. At least this is what I am experiencing while playing it this season. > 5. I have indeed written many threads stating how I feel Ranger specs should be fixed and exactly how to do in balanced fashion. Unfortunately, Arenanet has been very focused on simply nerfing Ranger into the dirt, this last 6 months. Hmmm weird I find soulbeast far superior for 1v1 or holding a node in comparison to DD and ive played far more DD than soulbeast but love both specs so not trying to be biased. I also find its ranged pressure quite good. I agree that DD can use its evades to hold a node longer than soulbeast without taking any damage but the DD ini and endurance will run out and opponents are dying to a constantly evading DD than they deserve it, not like the DD is able to tank any dps so other than for staff 3 evade exploits, some vaults and bounds it's not really crushing it dps wise except against bad players. DD sustain is in its evades and was balanced around that so it holding a node for 10 secs or more is no different than a warrior,holo,scrapper,guard,scourge combining all their protection,barriers,blocks,invulnerability skills etc to hold a node. A DD can chain alot of evades together as that's its survival mechanic which lends to it holding a node 1v2 etc for a short time,doesn't make it op, especially when u can almost fatally injure the thief when it lands its vaults and bounds due to long after casts. I couldn't imagine a player eating all the bounds,staff 3's and the few vaults lol it's so predictable. Since we both like ranger I can't count how many times a DD has started bounding around and I back off and knockback rapid fire them to downstate lmao easy, and than the "lame so lame" pops above their head as if I'm the cheesy one lol. I donno guess we'll see at end of season how well DD staff does lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LolLookAtMyAP.8394 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 The repeater condi thief build is actually very good against Staff DrD, Trevor Boyer is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said: > The repeater condi thief build is actually very good against Staff DrD, Trevor Boyer is correct. There ya go another counter yay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said: > > The repeater condi thief build is actually very good against Staff DrD, Trevor Boyer is correct. > > There ya go another counter yay It's a crap build lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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