Heroes

[SoulGuardian.6203]

I know it's a long shot, but what about let us play with two of our characters simultaneously?

One as main, and the other as companion, using AI, just like heroes in GW1...?

That way, we could have some help in high level maps, and able to level up two characters at the same time.

[kharmin.7683]

The game engine isn't set up for this. Please see the other posts in the forums about heroes for more insight.

[crepuscular.9047]

AIs are dumb, can you imagine you need to ress it every 5min?

[EmmetOtter.8542]

5 different classes with many different weapon options and builds... I don't see that kind of thing happening for a dressed up minion. If it was implemented it would probably be with generic abilities that may or may not be related to you're characters actual class.

 

I could see being able to select the role for your companion because that's been done before in LW3 when you and Scruffy went on a short mission and you could specify Scruffy's behavior: follow, defensive and something like aggressive.

[maddoctor.2738]

GW1 was an easy game for the AI to play. It simply had to spam skills with some basic weights in decision making, to appear semi-intelligent, and of course use the superior reflexes for instant skills. It was a static game with barely any movement, no dodging, no jumping and very little clever positioning required. GW2 is a dynamic game where movement, dodging, jumping and positioning are key. All much harder to implement than some basic decision algorithm.

[starhunter.6015]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> The game engine isn't set up for this. Please see the other posts in the forums about heroes for more insight.

 

Actually it is, you can get a sunspear AI controlled character to come assist you with a item you consume. Even the Ogre pet whistle lets any class summon a AI controlled pet.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> GW1 was an easy game for the AI to play. It simply had to spam skills with some basic weights in decision making, to appear semi-intelligent, and of course use the superior reflexes for instant skills. It was a static game with barely any movement, no dodging, no jumping and very little clever positioning required. GW2 is a dynamic game where movement, dodging, jumping and positioning are key. All much harder to implement than some basic decision algorithm.

 

GW1 was an easy game for the AI to play, _if_ it had the right build. One common problem people would run into in that game was looking up builds designed for players to use and then giving them to heroes, not realising that the AI was incapable of using the skills effectively. Not to mention Doppleganger builds which relied entirely on the AI's inability to use skills properly to work. Give a hero skills they can safely spam in any order or use based on very basic rules and they'd do well, give them anything more complicated and they'd just spam all the skills and achieve almost nothing. (Not a problem unique to GW1 but maybe more annoying because of the possibility of a full party of AI's and no pause button to allow full micromanagement.)

 

I'd be interested to know whether the AI in GW1 really is as useless as it often seems or if allies are commonly toned down to ensure they're not carrying the player or rushing ahead like Rurik always did in GW1. I know ranger pets and necromancer minions don't have great AI either, but they're limited to just a few skills and no dodge. Many of our allies appear to have similar builds to players, including some of the same skills, but still seem useless and I wonder how much is limitations of the AI vs. deliberate design to stop them taking over. It wouldn't surprise me if there's things they can't do (dodge at the right time being an obvious example) but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a mix of the two that's currently limiting them.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > GW1 was an easy game for the AI to play. It simply had to spam skills with some basic weights in decision making, to appear semi-intelligent, and of course use the superior reflexes for instant skills. It was a static game with barely any movement, no dodging, no jumping and very little clever positioning required. GW2 is a dynamic game where movement, dodging, jumping and positioning are key. All much harder to implement than some basic decision algorithm.

>

> GW1 was an easy game for the AI to play, _if_ it had the right build. One common problem people would run into in that game was looking up builds designed for players to use and then giving them to heroes, not realising that the AI was incapable of using the skills effectively. Not to mention Doppleganger builds which relied entirely on the AI's inability to use skills properly to work. Give a hero skills they can safely spam in any order or use based on very basic rules and they'd do well, give them anything more complicated and they'd just spam all the skills and achieve almost nothing. (Not a problem unique to GW1 but maybe more annoying because of the possibility of a full party of AI's and no pause button to allow full micromanagement.)

>

> I'd be interested to know whether the AI in GW1 really is as useless as it often seems or if allies are commonly toned down to ensure they're not carrying the player or rushing ahead like Rurik always did in GW1. I know ranger pets and necromancer minions don't have great AI either, but they're limited to just a few skills and no dodge. Many of our allies appear to have similar builds to players, including some of the same skills, but still seem useless and I wonder how much is limitations of the AI vs. deliberate design to stop them taking over. It wouldn't surprise me if there's things they can't do (dodge at the right time being an obvious example) but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a mix of the two that's currently limiting them.

 

ah... the ascension doppelganger, i remember i pick the 2nd profession as necro, and setup the whole bunch of sacrifice skills, then watch the dopple bleeds itself to death

[Metasynaptic.1093]

No, and here is why: imagine showing up to a world boss and everyone has 2 heroes

[SoulGuardian.6203]

> @"Metasynaptic.1093" said:

> No, and here is why: imagine showing up to a world boss and everyone has 2 heroes

 

Of course when you get to level 80, that option would be disabled.

I am suggesting more in the terms of leveling up. Or would be some restrictions, in wich the AI controlled character could not cause the boss any damage whatsoever.

[kharmin.7683]

It is very easy to level up in this game. There is no need to make it any easier with AI controlled heroes.

[Teratus.2859]

The game wouldn't work with a system like that without heavy redesigns that would take a lot away from the solo play aspect.

 

It may however be a good option for Dungeons but in all honesty balancing dungeons for solo play would probably be easier than designing a competent AI that could adapt a player character.

 

I think the best way to bring this concept into the game in any way would be through a special skill which mimic skills like Warband Support and Thieves Guild.

This could probably be done via the mastery system, unlocking a special F6 skill that would allow you to call in some limited use AI allies with predefined builds that mimic your characters appearance and weapons.

This would have to be balanced with a big CD and limited use in group content such as a range cap on how many players can activate it the same time or something.

But it could be a fun sorta gimmick skill for PvE.

[perilisk.1874]

One thing that I've thought might be nice is to use reverse scaling for allies, in lieu of a hero system.

 

That is, fill certain OW area with groups of greens with a mix of skills/roles (like GW1 encounters), who patrol and fight reds in the absence of players, with probably a slight advantage to the reds to encourage players to jump in.

 

But, as more players show up and the numbers and strength of enemies scale up, allies get weaker, stop spawning, and despawn when killed instead of being revivable.

 

I think it could make it easier to balance content around having certain numbers of good guys/bad buys and some degree of balance between DPS and support.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > The game engine isn't set up for this. Please see the other posts in the forums about heroes for more insight.

>

> Actually it is, you can get a sunspear AI controlled character to come assist you with a item you consume. Even the Ogre pet whistle lets any class summon a AI controlled pet.

 

And those summons only have a hand full of skills to use, and only survive due to Minions having a 95% incoming damage reduction buff PRECISELY BECAUSE damage soaking is their only defense. Pet/Mob AI in this game doesn't handle the kind of complex decision making even passive tank and spank players need to utilize in order to survive. Any frustration players have with any PvE AI in this game has always been due to the coincidental timing of its skills firing off; and is entirely weighted on the effects of those skills, rather then the AI's "decision" to activate it.

 

I had this well thought out response explaining everything that will go wrong with this idea........ but I can convey it in 3 simple words. Long Bow Ranger.

That sound you're hearing is half the open world k-trains stabbing their monitors, while the other half is blissfully unaware of whats wrong. Spoiler alert... that other half is all long bow rangers.

[Zeefa.3915]

Maybe if it was limited to instanced content? Like story missions, dungeons, etc.

As an option if you can't find a team or struggle with story on your own. Since it would still be quite inferior to a real team, it would not eliminate the need for other players and for harder instanced content (high end fractals and raids) it wouldn't even be worth considering as an option.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"SoulGuardian.6203" said:

> > @"Metasynaptic.1093" said:

> > No, and here is why: imagine showing up to a world boss and everyone has 2 heroes

>

> Of course when you get to level 80, that option would be disabled.

> I am suggesting more in the terms of leveling up. Or would be some restrictions, in wich the AI controlled character could not cause the boss any damage whatsoever.

 

What about non 80 bosses?

[starhunter.6015]

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > The game engine isn't set up for this. Please see the other posts in the forums about heroes for more insight.

> >

> > Actually it is, you can get a sunspear AI controlled character to come assist you with a item you consume. Even the Ogre pet whistle lets any class summon a AI controlled pet.

>

> And those summons only have a hand full of skills to use, and only survive due to Minions having a 95% incoming damage reduction buff PRECISELY BECAUSE damage soaking is their only defense. Pet/Mob AI in this game doesn't handle the kind of complex decision making even passive tank and spank players need to utilize in order to survive. Any frustration players have with any PvE AI in this game has always been due to the coincidental timing of its skills firing off; and is entirely weighted on the effects of those skills, rather then the AI's "decision" to activate it.

>

> I had this well thought out response explaining everything that will go wrong with this idea........ but I can convey it in 3 simple words. Long Bow Ranger.

> That sound you're hearing is half the open world k-trains stabbing their monitors, while the other half is blissfully unaware of whats wrong. Spoiler alert... that other half is all long bow rangers.

 

It's not the number of skills that's the issue. An still remains that the system to do it is in game. But yeah I agree the AI that Rangers and Necros have to deal with should be enough for players to realize asking for Heroes may be a bad idea. Just look at any instance during personal story/Living Story at how the NPC characters move/fight.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

> @"Zeefa.3915" said:

> Maybe if it was limited to instanced content? Like story missions, dungeons, etc.

> As an option if you can't find a team or struggle with story on your own. Since it would still be quite inferior to a real team, it would not eliminate the need for other players and for harder instanced content (high end fractals and raids) it wouldn't even be worth considering as an option.

 

Nice one.

That could well be the answer to it.

Spot on friend.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"SoulGuardian.6203" said:

> I know it's a long shot, but what about let us play with two of our characters simultaneously?

> One as main, and the other as companion, using AI, just like heroes in GW1...?

> That way, we could have some help in high level maps, and able to level up two characters at the same time.

 

I've suggested this a long time ago. Using our own characters would allow us to build them out as we need them to be.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> AIs are dumb, can you imagine you need to ress it every 5min?

 

The AIs in the game are dumb because they haven't put much thought into them. If you could define the roll for them it would be much easier for an AI and player to control them. With a well programmed AI and a good control interface it would be interesting to have challenges where the player has to use heroes to defeat enemies. I would like to see them for raids, dungeons and fractals. It would just require the player to have a different game play skill set to think more broadly at keeping track of them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> The AIs in the game are dumb because they haven't put much thought into them. If you could define the roll for them it would be much easier for an AI and player to control them. With a well programmed AI and a good control interface it would be interesting to have challenges where the player has to use heroes to defeat enemies. I would like to see them for raids, dungeons and fractals. It would just require the player to have a different game play skill set to think more broadly at keeping track of them.

 

If the AI is to be used in instanced content, they'd need to add special AI packages for every single dungeon, fractal and Raid, and of course all story missions. The AI is oblivious to environmental dangers, and that's true for most video games, not just GW1/GW2, unless specifically designed to look out for those dangers.

 

Imagine fighting Sabetha, and she uses the flamewall. There is no way an AI can be programmed to deal with that attack without writing very specific routines for it. All Raid bosses are full of such mechanics that would need to be hard coded. Fractals and even dungeons have such mechanics too, the laser room in Crucible of Eternity, the laser room in Aetherblade fractal and so on. They are all mechanics that require extra effort to write and it would be a waste of resources to implement it. Even if it was doable.

 

Only area an AI can play well is core tyria maps that take little to no effort to survive and most encounters lack any kind of complicated mechanics, just like GW1 had very little mechanics in its fights, so easier for an AI to follow. But it's also the area where an AI would make the less sense to be added.

[Dayra.7405]

Why just 1, why only 5 would be a good argument for selling char-places (and the birthday scrolls and Tome's would become a use), if you could fill a full 50 hero squad with your chars :)

 

Definitely something to think about if wvw continue to loose ppl at the current rate ;)

 

And instead of ANet programming the AI: We get functions and a simple rule language (if ... then. ... ) to program our AI(s) as we want them.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> Why just 1, why only 5 would be a good argument for selling char-places (and the birthday scrolls and Tome's would become a use), if you could fill a full 50 hero squad with your chars :) (Winning) ?

>

> Definitely something to think about if wvw continue to loose ppl at the current rate ;) ✔

>

> And instead of ANet programming the AI: We get functions and a simple rule language (if ... then. ... ) to program our AI(s) as we want them.

 

I agree completely.

I would definitely love to play with my entire cast against cpu AI in WvW or have a few helpers in my "now getting tedious and repetitive" story mode or instances. Which to me is now agony... so in order to get some tiny extra XP to level up my characters. ?

It certainly would give it some spice.

 

 

[ParadoX.3124]

Nah, all computers would crash with 50+ people having heros.

Btw we already have invocations with items (sunspears)

[SoulGuardian.6203]

> @"ParadoX.3124" said:

> Nah, all computers would crash with 50+ people having heros.

> Btw we already have invocations with items (sunspears)

 

You would play on a private map, just like your instances.

It would be you and your cast vs AI.