Nerfing permastealth Backstab builds without kittening thief further

[kash.9213]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But humour me for a moment, what builds would suffer from my suggestion? Are you saying other thief builds would suffer because they can't stack 12 seconds of stealth? Or are you saying that the oneshot back stab stealth builds are fine and don't need balancing?

> > > > >

> > > > > Due to this reason:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > > > > > Just want to mention this, since I hear bp+hs is 12sec of stealth a lot, but no one is counting the 4-5 seconds it takes to do all of the 4 leaps through bp to achieve the 12 seconds, so in the end you're only left with around 7-8 seconds of stealth and 0 initiative to do something. Sure this is on a normal dp thief build, if you go SA that's another story.

> > > > >

> > > > > Every builds.

> > > >

> > > > And I would argue that If thats the only stealth they could stack then it would be fine. But being able to stack that much stealth and still have cooldowns which further extend the stealth is a problem.

> > > >

> > > > But In general I would seek to discourage builds that can approach in stealth and then one shot a target.

> > >

> > > Then the Dev has to give Thief reliable access to Protection, Stability, Resilience, Alacrity, and, most of all, Aegis. Not to mention, passive invulnerability. That way, we don't have to use stealth when approaching our target. The fact that Thief has limited to no access to these defensive skills, extended stealth is necessary for our survival.

> >

> > No it doesn't, It only needs these things if anet deleted stealth. Stealthing for longer than 6 seconds is overkill. There's more to playing thief than sitting in stealth for long durations. Thief doesn't need the abillity to approach unseen and hit 15k openers before the target can react.

> >

> > I'm not trying to hate thief here. If you read my replies in the WvW marked thread you can see that I strongly advocate for the reveal mechanic to be completely reworked as 2 second stealth's followed by a 5 second reveal guts stealth builds completely. Its completely unfair.

> >

> > But to say thief NEEDS to stealth for long durations like more than 7 seconds to be effective is a gross exaggeration.

>

> The extended stealth is not the one doing all the one-shot-kills or dealing massive damage. You're proposing a solution to something else that is not even directly related to the problem presented here. Stealth is not used just for offensive positioning, rather it is the core defense mechanism of the Thief profession. Stealthing for longer than 6s or even 1hr is not overkill. Stealth does nothing to anyone other than the Thief and as someone has mentioned here, there is no interaction. Since that is the case, nerfing stealth is grossly inappropriate if the cause of the problem is MBS and DJ or other sources that boosts damage.

>

> If the Thief can hit your for 15k, would it matter if the Thief is in stealth or not? I get hit for more than that by a Soulbeast. Ranger didn't even need stealth to deal that much damage. So the fact of the matter is, the damage is too much no matter what the profession, it's not about extended stealth. The fact that you're so focus on extended stealth tells me that your objective is not about balancing the damage, rather to nerf the Thief unnecessarily and using MBS and DJ as a vehicle to get there. That's so dishonest.

>

> TL;DR:

> You want to nerf a defensive mechanic due to complainst about offensive mechanics, makes zero sense.

 

DJ and especially MBS are strong but not strong enough to bother without stealth positioning, but with too long a duration possible on stealth all of the advantage goes to who can see the other players roll-out of build, buffs, etc and change-out during their reaction to stealth. Those skills need to be powerful immediately because they need to be decisive but enough modifiers can be packed into that hit compounding that damages aftertaste that another player needs to either be able to react to some indicator that stealth is near or at least be able to fine tune their build to some threshold of stealth duration for their game mode making a real heavy hitting stealth opener have to spend on distance and positioning to fit in the stealth duration. I'd like to keep some form of long duration stealth for keeping a low profile traveling around a map but that should disable Stealth Attacks after like 4 or 5 seconds until reapplying stealth.

 

Defensively, there's enough sources of reapplying stealth along with mitigation from revealed that we're kinda alright even with base stealth duration but if stealth attacks are disabled after a certain amount of time you still get the defensive retreat or whatever you're going for.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> I'd like to keep some form of long duration stealth for keeping a low profile traveling around a map but that should disable Stealth Attacks after like 4 or 5 seconds until reapplying stealth.

>

 

This is actually an acceptable solution. Stealth Attacks are only available within 5s after going in stealth. I'd support this.

 

> Defensively, there's enough sources of reapplying stealth along with mitigation from revealed that we're kinda alright even with base stealth duration but if stealth attacks are disabled after a certain amount of time you still get the defensive retreat or whatever you're going for.

 

That's only if you take SA. You lose that mitigation if in other builds. But yes, a 5s window for stealth attack after stealth is acceptable...to me, at least.

 

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > I'd like to keep some form of long duration stealth for keeping a low profile traveling around a map but that should disable Stealth Attacks after like 4 or 5 seconds until reapplying stealth.

> >

>

> This is actually an acceptable solution. Stealth Attacks are only available within 5s after going in stealth. I'd support this.

>

> > Defensively, there's enough sources of reapplying stealth along with mitigation from revealed that we're kinda alright even with base stealth duration but if stealth attacks are disabled after a certain amount of time you still get the defensive retreat or whatever you're going for.

>

> That's only if you take SA. You lose that mitigation if in other builds. But yes, a 5s window for stealth attack after stealth is acceptable...to me, at least.

>

>

 

It doesn't actually fix the problem of stacking stealth OOC/from long range and just timing out the duration into a new stealth before the visual effect drops for the burst, though.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > I'd like to keep some form of long duration stealth for keeping a low profile traveling around a map but that should disable Stealth Attacks after like 4 or 5 seconds until reapplying stealth.

> > >

> >

> > This is actually an acceptable solution. Stealth Attacks are only available within 5s after going in stealth. I'd support this.

> >

> > > Defensively, there's enough sources of reapplying stealth along with mitigation from revealed that we're kinda alright even with base stealth duration but if stealth attacks are disabled after a certain amount of time you still get the defensive retreat or whatever you're going for.

> >

> > That's only if you take SA. You lose that mitigation if in other builds. But yes, a 5s window for stealth attack after stealth is acceptable...to me, at least.

> >

> >

>

> It doesn't actually fix the problem of stacking stealth OOC/from long range and just timing out the duration into a new stealth before the visual effect drops for the burst, though.

 

That is because stacking stealth isn't the problem and it requires no fixing. If you can time your new stealth without your target noticing, then all props to you for pulling it off.

[Obtena.7952]

It's lame ... but I played a game that capped ANY hit at 40% of the target's HP.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > I'd like to keep some form of long duration stealth for keeping a low profile traveling around a map but that should disable Stealth Attacks after like 4 or 5 seconds until reapplying stealth.

> > > >

> > >

> > > This is actually an acceptable solution. Stealth Attacks are only available within 5s after going in stealth. I'd support this.

> > >

> > > > Defensively, there's enough sources of reapplying stealth along with mitigation from revealed that we're kinda alright even with base stealth duration but if stealth attacks are disabled after a certain amount of time you still get the defensive retreat or whatever you're going for.

> > >

> > > That's only if you take SA. You lose that mitigation if in other builds. But yes, a 5s window for stealth attack after stealth is acceptable...to me, at least.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It doesn't actually fix the problem of stacking stealth OOC/from long range and just timing out the duration into a new stealth before the visual effect drops for the burst, though.

>

> That is because stacking stealth isn't the problem and it requires no fixing. If you can time your new stealth without your target noticing, then all props to you for pulling it off.

 

It's extremely easy to do with only a little practice and is a core skill of playing D/D. I don't think it will have enough of an effect to resolve much.

[Kageseigi.2150]

I don't like the idea of removing/limiting Stealth stacking simply because it would really hamstring Shadow Arts traits like Shadow's Embrace, Leeching Venoms, and Shadow's Rejuvenation the way they are implemented... especially for builds that can't get Stealth on demand without hitting a target.

 

While perma/long-Stealth may annoy people, that's what it should do. The only credible complaint is being attacked with no tell. And even then, it's only truly problematic when it's a hard hit or devastating (e.g., Malicious Backstab or old Moa from Stealth).

 

You could make Stealth Attacks auto-Reveal at the beginning of the cast (like Death's Judgement), but I don't like that either. You'd only get one shot at an attack. If you miss, you're toast. At least now, if you miss, you can still reposition and get benefits from SA traits for however long.

 

Or you could make the first attack after exiting Stealth a "Stealth Attack." Perhaps make the first attack after being Revealed a "Stealth Attack."

If you did that, you could keep the normal auto-attack up during Stealth, use it to self-Reveal, then follow with a "Stealth-Attack."

Or you could replace the 1-skill while in Stealth with a self-Revealing shadowstep to target (for melee weapon sets), which would put the Thief in place to follow up with a "Stealth Attack." It would still only allow one shot at the attack, but it would at least make the hit much more probable.

 

Changing "Stealth Attacks" into "Revealed Attacks" would still allow you to use them at least once per Stealth, and would also allow you to use them if you got caught with a Revealing skill while outside of Stealth.

 

P.S. If you did change a "Stealth Attack" to a "Revealed Attack," you could also do away with the 1-second cooldown, and allow as many attempts at the attack as long as the Revealed debuff is present, since the target can now fully see every move. If/when the attack does successfully hit, then it would flip back to the normal auto-attack chain.

[anduriell.6280]

Stealth should not stack, not in thief, not in ranger or mesmer or engie. Ultra easy to apply and it doesn't need to change anything else.

If the thief want to stay stelathed need to do active gameplay, casting the stealth when it needed and not spam and stack it prior combat.

Problem solved.

 

The damage nerf wouldn't be fair if the rest of the game is not balanced as well. Right now there is too much damage everywhere.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> It's lame ... but I played a game that capped ANY hit at 40% of the target's HP.

 

Yeah I dont think thats a great idea, it both makes glass builds less, yknow, glassy, but it also creates a gap between condis and power, and one-hit damage skills and multi-hit damage skills. Rapid Fire and Ghastly Claws would still kill you just as easily, while Eviscerate and Earth 4 from Ele would not.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> It's lame ... but I played a game that capped ANY hit at 40% of the target's HP.

 

I agree, it's lame.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > > I'd like to keep some form of long duration stealth for keeping a low profile traveling around a map but that should disable Stealth Attacks after like 4 or 5 seconds until reapplying stealth.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is actually an acceptable solution. Stealth Attacks are only available within 5s after going in stealth. I'd support this.

> > > >

> > > > > Defensively, there's enough sources of reapplying stealth along with mitigation from revealed that we're kinda alright even with base stealth duration but if stealth attacks are disabled after a certain amount of time you still get the defensive retreat or whatever you're going for.

> > > >

> > > > That's only if you take SA. You lose that mitigation if in other builds. But yes, a 5s window for stealth attack after stealth is acceptable...to me, at least.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > It doesn't actually fix the problem of stacking stealth OOC/from long range and just timing out the duration into a new stealth before the visual effect drops for the burst, though.

> >

> > That is because stacking stealth isn't the problem and it requires no fixing. If you can time your new stealth without your target noticing, then all props to you for pulling it off.

>

> It's extremely easy to do with only a little practice and is a core skill of playing D/D. I don't think it will have enough of an effect to resolve much.

 

Having to practice it shows that it would be the best solution since it will separate skilled and unskilled Thieves from taking advantage of extended stealth. There is also room for error that will create a window of opportunity for the would-be-victim to react.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> I don't like the idea of removing/limiting Stealth stacking simply because it would really hamstring Shadow Arts traits like Shadow's Embrace, Leeching Venoms, and Shadow's Rejuvenation the way they are implemented... especially for builds that can't get Stealth on demand without hitting a target.

>

> While perma/long-Stealth may annoy people, that's what it should do. The only credible complaint is being attacked with no tell. And even then, it's only truly problematic when it's a hard hit or devastating (e.g., Malicious Backstab or old Moa from Stealth).

>

> You could make Stealth Attacks auto-Reveal at the beginning of the cast (like Death's Judgement), but I don't like that either. You'd only get one shot at an attack. If you miss, you're toast. At least now, if you miss, you can still reposition and get benefits from SA traits for however long.

>

> Or you could make the first attack after exiting Stealth a "Stealth Attack." Perhaps make the first attack after being Revealed a "Stealth Attack."

> If you did that, you could keep the normal auto-attack up during Stealth, use it to self-Reveal, then follow with a "Stealth-Attack."

> Or you could replace the 1-skill while in Stealth with a self-Revealing shadowstep to target (for melee weapon sets), which would put the Thief in place to follow up with a "Stealth Attack." It would still only allow one shot at the attack, but it would at least make the hit much more probable.

>

> Changing "Stealth Attacks" into "Revealed Attacks" would still allow you to use them at least once per Stealth, and would also allow you to use them if you got caught with a Revealing skill while outside of Stealth.

>

> P.S. If you did change a "Stealth Attack" to a "Revealed Attack," you could also do away with the 1-second cooldown, and allow as many attempts at the attack as long as the Revealed debuff is present, since the target can now fully see every move. If/when the attack does successfully hit, then it would flip back to the normal auto-attack chain.

 

This is similar to my proposal so long time ago. Backstab, for example, should not require stealth, instead it should become available depending to your position to your target. If you're behind the target, Skill#1 should change to Backstab. The Thief will then have to work to get behind their target while not in stealth. Stealth at this point will simply be a defensive mechanism instead of a per-requisite for stealth attacks and stealth attacks would cease to exist. Sure you can go in stealth to sneak behind your target, but that will serve as a telegraph to your intention to backstab.

 

I personally never like the idea of stealth attack, but of course, ArenaNet knows best even though historically they never did.

[Doug.4930]

It is curious the extreme opinions you can get when it comes to thief. Either its the most broken overpowered thing in the game and the entire class needs to be deleted. Or, Its the most under powered thing in the game and it can't even 1v1 anybody.

[warherox.7943]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> It is curious the extreme opinions you can get when it comes to thief. Either its the most broken overpowered thing in the game and the entire class needs to be deleted. Or, Its the most under powered thing in the game and it can't even 1v1 anybody.

 

Profession forums in a nutshell.

[anduriell.6280]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> It is curious the extreme opinions you can get when it comes to thief. Either its the most broken overpowered thing in the game and the entire class needs to be deleted. Or, Its the most under powered thing in the game and it can't even 1v1 anybody.

 

Because players confuse builds with class. Thief has some broken builds the same as every class in this game, and IMO the systemsteam should tackle the real issue instead nerfing the all class.

 

If permastealth DE is an issue. why? Can it be reproduced with other specs? If so how to nerf that aspect (continuous invisibility) without nerfing the class itself?

 

If backstab is an issue... Why? What is the reason for which that skill does that damage? Can we nerf the effect without actually changing the reason of the skill to be in the game?

 

Example:

1- backstab does too much damage from an skill with no tells from an invisible enemy.

2- the skill is to provide a reward for the thief for being able to manage sealth + positioning in the side or back of the target.

3- the issue is the constant and easy access the thief has to stealth, it nullifies any difficulty it is supposed to have to land this skill. Remove stacking stealth so the skill has a balanced effort vs reward.

Add an initiative cost so the thief cant spam the skills.

[Dagger.2035]

The stealth design for this game should have been fixed the first year the game came out. They should have never allowed a weapon set to have both a smoke field and a leap or blast finisher. This would still allow combos to provide stealth but it would require a weapon swap or a utility skill to do so.

 

I just hope that they realize their mistake with deadeye and focus their nerfs on that elite spec. To start it should not be able to remove revealed. I don’t like that they keep adding counters to counters. This elite spec introduced a lot of issues with unblockable projectiles too. It’s probably the reason why Dagger Storm uses evasion now and has little counterplay.

 

 

[Dagger.2035]

Also why not simplify things and have all stealth attack skills reveal you instead of using the clunky cool down solution.

[ZDragon.3046]

TBH just skill split

in spvp perma stealth is not viable you cant cap or de cap points while perma stealth, You also should technically not be getting 1 shot by a backstab if you are full hp. Condi thief is more viable and works more effectively anyways.

 

In wvw perma stealth might be a problem. Dial the values back a bit on the skills in wvw only

 

Or do what this guy said

>@"Dagger.2035"

>Also why not simplify things and have all stealth attack skills reveal you instead of using the clunky cool down solution.

 

Problem solved.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dagger.2035" said:

> The stealth design for this game should have been fixed the first year the game came out. They should have never allowed a weapon set to have both a smoke field and a leap or blast finisher. This would still allow combos to provide stealth but it would require a weapon swap or a utility skill to do so.

>

> I just hope that they realize their mistake with deadeye and focus their nerfs on that elite spec. To start it should not be able to remove revealed. I don’t like that they keep adding counters to counters. This elite spec introduced a lot of issues with unblockable projectiles too. It’s probably the reason why Dagger Storm uses evasion now and has little counterplay.

>

>

 

Tbh i would have liked to see a camouflage mechanic like some other games have.

Stealth makes you appear translucent (like a friendly looks under stealth) and though you can see this translucent invisible figure you cant not directly target them or see their name or health bar this also disables a large majority of skills against them as many skills require a target lock. Only once they are beyond a certain distance from you (say past 600) do they become basically completely invisible. This would have allowed perma stealth builds to be fun to play while also being fair and allowing some forms of counter-play so they just dont get back stabs for free.

 

This could have been done for all forms of stealth.

[Dave.6819]

It's sickening how thief is already a joke and you still want more. When will people realise that Stealth is supposed to be a defensive mechanic of a Thief? And anet gladly gave reveal to lots of classes and it still wasnt enough? Sure i don't mind. Remove stealth in general but then give thief some kind of other means of surviving a fight. I'd be up for it. Give us blocks. Give us aegis. Give us invulns. Give us higher HP. Give us proper condi removal. Then stealth can be removed completely. But for now... that's our only means of survival. Of course one might say "just dodge" is our survival thing but you can only dodge so much. Plus passive type of defense in this game is far more superior then active "just dodge" type defense. So yes - give us other kinds of sustain and get rid of stealth in general if people are so mad about it. I'll gladly be a 1v1 duelist that doesn't have to hide in a bush cuz he can't take a punch.

[Doug.4930]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Dagger.2035" said:

> > The stealth design for this game should have been fixed the first year the game came out. They should have never allowed a weapon set to have both a smoke field and a leap or blast finisher. This would still allow combos to provide stealth but it would require a weapon swap or a utility skill to do so.

> >

> > I just hope that they realize their mistake with deadeye and focus their nerfs on that elite spec. To start it should not be able to remove revealed. I don’t like that they keep adding counters to counters. This elite spec introduced a lot of issues with unblockable projectiles too. It’s probably the reason why Dagger Storm uses evasion now and has little counterplay.

> >

> >

>

> Tbh i would have liked to see a camouflage mechanic like some other games have.

> Stealth makes you appear translucent (like a friendly looks under stealth) and though you can see this translucent invisible figure you cant not directly target them or see their name or health bar this also disables a large majority of skills against them as many skills require a target lock. Only once they are beyond a certain distance from you (say past 600) do they become basically completely invisible. This would have allowed perma stealth builds to be fun to play while also being fair and allowing some forms of counter-play so they just dont get back stabs for free.

>

> This could have been done for all forms of stealth.

 

This in my opinion would be going too far. If this change is implemented landing a backstab would become impossible against any semi competent player who has learnt how to hold down the right mouse button.

[wisprr.4612]

Personally, I can think of a few other ideas for solving this kind of abuse in PvP/WvW. I don't play those myself, but from what I've briefly read a few ideas have come to mind.

 

1: Rangers have an Opening Strike function that limits the frequency of how often they can do a larger hit in a single combat. Something similar could be implemented for Backstab in PvP environments, hell, a lil icon showing that you can backstab would be nice in all games modes.

 

2: In a similar fashion, placing a global cooldown on either stealth after it drops, and/or the backstabbing would mitigate this behavior.

 

Notes: The (problem?) of the above two is they would not prevent it from occurring in the first place, not certain if that is good or bad, but I've heard with the advent of mounts, in particular certain ones, severely outclasses thieves in WvW in several aspects, and we don't want to make them useless, things need to be balanced. And that is something else, in my personal experience Thief stealth in combat is a joke, but again I'm a PvEer, I just don't like the idea of making the class weaker, my perspective is balancing it, not nerfing which everyone hates anywho.

 

Another alternative, much more in the style of GW is implementing countermeasures. In GW1 that's how they use to deal with imbalances instead of nerfing. Deadeyes have the only elite stealth skill for thief, and it removes Reveal. I hate this, because I don't know if I have ever been revealed, and if I have I simply didn't notice due to the /very/ short duration of stealth in combat normally. There /really/ should be more ways to reveal things, something serious. What if Guardian had a trait where instead of granting Aegis (which would also counter this kind of attack) they pulse reveal instead? Necros already have a countermeasure of sorts, the major trait that when they hit 0 health they auto go into shroud. I'd also think it would be slick if Rangers had a trait or signet where they could see enemies in stealth the same exact way you see an ally in stealth. They could still be snuck up upon, but for the perceptive player they'd have plenty of opportunity to spot an incoming thief. Elementalist water fields could have something like a "mist" effect that again shows enemy stealth same as ally stealth, and mesmer stealth field skill could reveal enemies that enter it. I could go on all day about things like this, there are a lot of cool possibilities. That's another similar idea, there is the Stability buff, why not have a Sentinel buff that negates or reduces backstab damage?

 

**Edit:** Dave makes a very good point too, that would be kind of nice actually, especially for PvE, flipping dump backstab from stealth and make it defensive instead, and to bump thief DPS just give them a static bonus to damage from flank and rear like Rangers have from a trait. Makes a hell of a lot more sense from Thief than it does ranger. Hell, throw in ZDragon's idea where it's transparency effect that does anything defensive, that would actually solve a lot of problems.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dagger.2035" said:

> > > The stealth design for this game should have been fixed the first year the game came out. They should have never allowed a weapon set to have both a smoke field and a leap or blast finisher. This would still allow combos to provide stealth but it would require a weapon swap or a utility skill to do so.

> > >

> > > I just hope that they realize their mistake with deadeye and focus their nerfs on that elite spec. To start it should not be able to remove revealed. I don’t like that they keep adding counters to counters. This elite spec introduced a lot of issues with unblockable projectiles too. It’s probably the reason why Dagger Storm uses evasion now and has little counterplay.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Tbh i would have liked to see a camouflage mechanic like some other games have.

> > Stealth makes you appear translucent (like a friendly looks under stealth) and though you can see this translucent invisible figure you cant not directly target them or see their name or health bar this also disables a large majority of skills against them as many skills require a target lock. Only once they are beyond a certain distance from you (say past 600) do they become basically completely invisible. This would have allowed perma stealth builds to be fun to play while also being fair and allowing some forms of counter-play so they just dont get back stabs for free.

> >

> > This could have been done for all forms of stealth.

>

> This in my opinion would be going too far. If this change is implemented landing a backstab would become impossible against any semi competent player who has learnt how to hold down the right mouse button.

 

Not so sure really depends on the situation. If you are in a 1v1 sure maybe. If you are being a +1 to someone else that surely wont be the case.