An Argument for the Return of Hard Mode

[joneirikb.7506]

Personally would love more challenging content of different types and varieties. A Hard mode could be interesting, but I don't really see ANet implementing that (technical reasons, design reasons).

 

Couple of points though:

 

* I'm absolutely against "rewards". The only thing that would accomplish is another 5 year wave of people complaining that X and Y is locked behind Z that they don't want to do, insert slurs like elitist and toxic etc.

* To the nay-sayers that say no one wants harder content, I know of several people, infact entire guilds, that just gave up on the PvE side because it just gets too boring once you actually learn the combat system. Several of them would love to actually do pve again, if there was something to do other than beating up potatoe-sacks standing about waiting to get killed. I'm absolutely aware this isn't everyone in the game, but it's also completely wrong to claim the opposite.

* I'd rather like to see ANet develop and change up difficulty more per map, instead of making 1 map completely face roll, and another challenging. I think it would work better if more maps had a mix of everything. That would help create more dynamic situations where players can clear out 50-75% of the map alone, and team up with 1-2 others for most of the rest, and probably need 5+ for a end boss in a event chain. This would guide people toward grouping up and play together more naturally.

* The problem with the idea of reducing gear quality etc to create own challenges, is that once you reached a certain level of skill with the combat system, it doesn't make a difference. The only difference between ascended and blue berserker gear is honestly how long it takes to kill the mob, it doesn't change the challenge at all. Because the actual skill/challenge lies in the active defenses. The primary thing needed for challenging content is either "encounters" where the devs spend time setting up situations where the player has to overcome inherent handicaps like positioning etc, or frankly better AI that can dodge and block attacks with some semi-inteligent manner and can manage to bait out player defenses and get attacks in.

[Tukaram.8256]

It would be fine, but they would pretty much have to do it in the instanced areas only (like it was GW). That would be the way to make it optional. But then isn't that what fractals and dungeons are supposed to be already?

 

If we are asking for everything from GW - can I have my heroes back? :)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

conclusion: how dare you take away my keyboard smashing difficulty.

a lot of people don't want to try anymore, they just want easy mode where they can blow through content like gods for easy rewards. aka more dopamine faster.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> conclusion: how dare you take away my keyboard smashing difficulty.

> a lot of people don't want to try anymore, they just want easy mode where they can blow through content like gods for easy rewards. aka more dopamine faster.

 

Apparently.

[maddoctor.2738]

The game already has too much scheduled content and you want to essentially double it? Not gonna work very well. Moreover, how exactly are you gonna make sure a Moa in Queensdale is "hard"? The expansion and living world maps are already "hard mode" compared to Core Tyria maps and this is because mobs and bosses there have interesting mechanics and abilities. Core Tyria mobs have no interesting mechanics to speak of, this means to make a proper hard mode version they'd need to redesign all of their mobs, which is highly unlikely. No matter how much you increase the health and damage of the Shadow Behemoth (for a hard version), it will never be as challenging and interesting as Amala.

 

> @"Xeno.1298" said:

> There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

 

This nonsensical argument appears a lot in threads about hard mode but it doesn't work. Those self-imposed penalties won't make the content more challenging but more tedious and boring. Back in the day before Heart of Thorns Fractal mobs used to get insane health and damage at higher levels, that wasn't challenging, nor fun, it was boring and annoying. Challenging content means content that makes you think, content that requires certain builds and choices and content that requires working with others, not damage sponge enemies that deal tons of damage, which would be the result of your suggestion.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> >

> > I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

>

> It's the same difference. It doesn't matter what the source of the challenge is, if challenge is what you actually want instead of just more rewards. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out currently viable options for what you consider a "problem", that really isn't. If you want the challenge to include other players, make a hardcore guild or the like and set whatever gameplay rules are desired, there's that issue solved. GW1 was a completely different game. In GW2 maps aren't all instanced, there are no henchmen/heroes, non-story instance maps can't be "cleared", resurrection works differently, etc., so expecting GW2 to offer something comparable to the GW1 hard mode experience is unlikely and would rob the core game of a lot of development resources.

>

 

A major point of order in this inane argument to tell people to "put on blues or greens" is that sure, we could all go back to that and it would reduce number values on individual skills. However, you don't actually lessen a players comprehension of combat mechanics by doing this. Many of us who've been here since launch have had a full seven years to "get good" for lack of a better phrase. What, are people supposed to unlearn combat? It's _not at all_ the "same difference" when that is factored in. That's why people necessarily *can* do raids in blues and greens. Because the power between good damage isn't locked so much behind gear in this game as it is in the skill queuing and positioning/dodging in combat. The only thing gear does in game is make it so that each individual packet has a higher minimum and maximum range. So thanks, but no thanks to that completely flippant suggestion @ everyone who ever thought it was legitimate.

[kharmin.7683]

I find the premise of the thread to be faulty, for it assumes that there was a hard mode to GW2 at some point? How can the game return to something that wasn't there before?

[Sarrs.4831]

Hard mode 'working' in GW2 would just be like a level dock I think.

Put yourself to level 78 in a level 80 zone with mobs possibly scaling up over 80 and you'll be at a pretty substantial disadvantage.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> I find the premise of the thread to be faulty, for it assumes that there was a hard mode to GW2 at some point? How can the game return to something that wasn't there before?

 

No. Tons of people here are ascribing it that premise to give themselves more fuel. Just to clear it up, I remembered my time with GW1's hard mode and thought it was a good system, good god people.

[Xeno.1298]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

--- 8< ---

> > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

>

> This nonsensical argument appears a lot in threads about hard mode but it doesn't work. Those self-imposed penalties won't make the content more challenging but more tedious and boring. Back in the day before Heart of Thorns Fractal mobs used to get insane health and damage at higher levels, that wasn't challenging, nor fun, it was boring and annoying. Challenging content means content that makes you think, content that requires certain builds and choices and content that requires working with others, not damage sponge enemies that deal tons of damage, which would be the result of your suggestion.

 

It's not remotely nonsensical. Limiting yourself in various ways requires different approaches to playing just like adding additional health/damage/mechanics to your opponent does. I'm sorry something so straightforward is too challenging for your thinking.

 

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> --- 8< ---

> > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> >

> > This nonsensical argument appears a lot in threads about hard mode but it doesn't work. Those self-imposed penalties won't make the content more challenging but more tedious and boring. Back in the day before Heart of Thorns Fractal mobs used to get insane health and damage at higher levels, that wasn't challenging, nor fun, it was boring and annoying. Challenging content means content that makes you think, content that requires certain builds and choices and content that requires working with others, not damage sponge enemies that deal tons of damage, which would be the result of your suggestion.

>

> It's not remotely nonsensical. Limiting yourself in various ways requires different approaches to playing just like adding additional health/damage/mechanics to your opponent does. I'm sorry something so straightforward is too challenging for your thinking.

>

 

Your condescension is noted and unwarranted.

 

Additionally, it really doesn't change much of anything. Take Berserkers or Carrion stats for high damage for Power/Condi. Limiting ones choices of gear to blues and greens, yes, would allow only to choose from core game stats which are more limiting (but celestial is also among them). However, those are still stats that function well without being higher tiered gear.

 

Again, being in blue gear of whatever stat combo doesnt matter. If I have low power because I'm playing off of Zerk, then I see what my profession can do to stack might or fury. Changing gear doesnt make you forget how to play.

[Xeno.1298]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> > >

> > > I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

> >

> > It's the same difference. It doesn't matter what the source of the challenge is, if challenge is what you actually want instead of just more rewards. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out currently viable options for what you consider a "problem", that really isn't. If you want the challenge to include other players, make a hardcore guild or the like and set whatever gameplay rules are desired, there's that issue solved. GW1 was a completely different game. In GW2 maps aren't all instanced, there are no henchmen/heroes, non-story instance maps can't be "cleared", resurrection works differently, etc., so expecting GW2 to offer something comparable to the GW1 hard mode experience is unlikely and would rob the core game of a lot of development resources.

> >

>

> A major point of order in this inane argument to tell people to "put on blues or greens" is that sure, we could all go back to that and it would reduce number values on individual skills. However, you don't actually lessen a players comprehension of combat mechanics by doing this. Many of us who've been here since launch have had a full seven years to "get good" for lack of a better phrase. What, are people supposed to unlearn combat? It's _not at all_ the "same difference" when that is factored in. That's why people necessarily *can* do raids in blues and greens. Because the power between good damage isn't locked so much behind gear in this game as it is in the skill queuing and positioning/dodging in combat. The only thing gear does in game is make it so that each individual packet has a higher minimum and maximum range. So thanks, but no thanks to that completely flippant suggestion @ everyone who ever thought it was legitimate.

 

It's not inane just because you can't grasp something so basic. If you disable dodging, for instance, you will have to rely on other options to mitigate damage. If you limit your specializations you will have to give different consideration to how to build, equip, and play your character. You really should check your bad altitude and pay attention to options people are offering you instead of being hatefully dismissive. Keeping a narrow focus and demanding something you aren't going to get will get you nowhere nor will you gain anything from insulting others.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> > > >

> > > > I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

> > >

> > > It's the same difference. It doesn't matter what the source of the challenge is, if challenge is what you actually want instead of just more rewards. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out currently viable options for what you consider a "problem", that really isn't. If you want the challenge to include other players, make a hardcore guild or the like and set whatever gameplay rules are desired, there's that issue solved. GW1 was a completely different game. In GW2 maps aren't all instanced, there are no henchmen/heroes, non-story instance maps can't be "cleared", resurrection works differently, etc., so expecting GW2 to offer something comparable to the GW1 hard mode experience is unlikely and would rob the core game of a lot of development resources.

> > >

> >

> > A major point of order in this inane argument to tell people to "put on blues or greens" is that sure, we could all go back to that and it would reduce number values on individual skills. However, you don't actually lessen a players comprehension of combat mechanics by doing this. Many of us who've been here since launch have had a full seven years to "get good" for lack of a better phrase. What, are people supposed to unlearn combat? It's _not at all_ the "same difference" when that is factored in. That's why people necessarily *can* do raids in blues and greens. Because the power between good damage isn't locked so much behind gear in this game as it is in the skill queuing and positioning/dodging in combat. The only thing gear does in game is make it so that each individual packet has a higher minimum and maximum range. So thanks, but no thanks to that completely flippant suggestion @ everyone who ever thought it was legitimate.

>

> It's not inane just because you can't grasp something so basic. If you disable dodging, for instance, you will have to rely on other options to mitigate damage. If you limit your specializations you will have to give different consideration to how to build, equip, and play your character. You really should check your bad altitude and pay attention to options people are offering you instead of being hatefully dismissive. Keeping a narrow focus and demanding something you aren't going to get will get you nowhere nor will you gain anything from insulting others.

 

Do not confuse defending an argument for hateful insults.

 

Do not confuse my response to people insulting my playstyle with having a "bad attitude".

 

People see something they dont like in the forums and it's a race to dogpile.

 

The **argument** is inane, the people posting things of that vein have been doing so with a very flippant attitude to which I am merely responding assertively.

 

I do not need to be told how to play the game. Contrary to the beliefs of those telling me how to play, I have been on the defensive where that angle is concerned. The post detailing something hypothetical has generated _real_ personal jabs at me and a few others. I respond only to what I've been dealt.

[Xeno.1298]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > --- 8< ---

> > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> > >

> > > This nonsensical argument appears a lot in threads about hard mode but it doesn't work. Those self-imposed penalties won't make the content more challenging but more tedious and boring. Back in the day before Heart of Thorns Fractal mobs used to get insane health and damage at higher levels, that wasn't challenging, nor fun, it was boring and annoying. Challenging content means content that makes you think, content that requires certain builds and choices and content that requires working with others, not damage sponge enemies that deal tons of damage, which would be the result of your suggestion.

> >

> > It's not remotely nonsensical. Limiting yourself in various ways requires different approaches to playing just like adding additional health/damage/mechanics to your opponent does. I'm sorry something so straightforward is too challenging for your thinking.

> >

>

> Your condescension is noted and unwarranted.

>

> Additionally, it really doesn't change much of anything. Take Berserkers or Carrion stats for high damage for Power/Condi. Limiting ones choices of gear to blues and greens, yes, would allow only to choose from core game stats which are more limiting (but celestial is also among them). However, those are still stats that function well without being higher tiered gear.

>

> Again, being in blue gear of whatever stat combo doesnt matter. If I have low power because I'm playing off of Zerk, then I see what my profession can do to stack might or fury. Changing gear doesnt make you forget how to play.

 

Your anger and dismissiveness of others offering you actual options is noted and unwarranted. Any condescension you perceive is a mirror of your attitude. I suggested a number of options and all you see is gear. That isn't all I suggested for ways to challenge yourself. If you are wanting new mechanics introduced, you know you will learn how to manage those and they will then become "too easy", right? Then what, you'll need an "extra-hard mode"? Challenging yourself is an option available to you now, if you really want it. Do you?

[Xeno.1298]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

> > > >

> > > > It's the same difference. It doesn't matter what the source of the challenge is, if challenge is what you actually want instead of just more rewards. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out currently viable options for what you consider a "problem", that really isn't. If you want the challenge to include other players, make a hardcore guild or the like and set whatever gameplay rules are desired, there's that issue solved. GW1 was a completely different game. In GW2 maps aren't all instanced, there are no henchmen/heroes, non-story instance maps can't be "cleared", resurrection works differently, etc., so expecting GW2 to offer something comparable to the GW1 hard mode experience is unlikely and would rob the core game of a lot of development resources.

> > > >

> > >

> > > A major point of order in this inane argument to tell people to "put on blues or greens" is that sure, we could all go back to that and it would reduce number values on individual skills. However, you don't actually lessen a players comprehension of combat mechanics by doing this. Many of us who've been here since launch have had a full seven years to "get good" for lack of a better phrase. What, are people supposed to unlearn combat? It's _not at all_ the "same difference" when that is factored in. That's why people necessarily *can* do raids in blues and greens. Because the power between good damage isn't locked so much behind gear in this game as it is in the skill queuing and positioning/dodging in combat. The only thing gear does in game is make it so that each individual packet has a higher minimum and maximum range. So thanks, but no thanks to that completely flippant suggestion @ everyone who ever thought it was legitimate.

> >

> > It's not inane just because you can't grasp something so basic. If you disable dodging, for instance, you will have to rely on other options to mitigate damage. If you limit your specializations you will have to give different consideration to how to build, equip, and play your character. You really should check your bad altitude and pay attention to options people are offering you instead of being hatefully dismissive. Keeping a narrow focus and demanding something you aren't going to get will get you nowhere nor will you gain anything from insulting others.

>

> Do not confuse defending an argument for hateful insults.

>

> Do not confuse my response to people insulting my playstyle with having a "bad attitude".

>

> People see something they dont like in the forums and it's a race to dogpile.

>

> The **argument** is inane, the people posting things of that vein have been doing so with a very flippant attitude to which I am merely responding assertively.

>

> I do not need to be told how to play the game. Contrary to the beliefs of those telling me how to play, I have been on the defensive where that angle is concerned. The post detailing something hypothetical has generated _real_ personal jabs at me and a few others. I respond only to what I've been dealt.

 

Calling valid points "Inane" is not a defense of an argument, it is simply an insult that totally failed to counter all the options for challenging yourself. Who's insulting your "playstyle"? People are pointing out you are exceedingly unlikely to get the devs to invest heavily in your wish any time soon, if at all, and suggesting alternatives to allow you to experience more difficulty right now, to which you have responded with open aggression and insults. Try the advice given and maybe enjoy yourself, or continue your angry and unfruitful ranting, either way I'm done with you.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > --- 8< ---

> > > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> > > >

> > > > This nonsensical argument appears a lot in threads about hard mode but it doesn't work. Those self-imposed penalties won't make the content more challenging but more tedious and boring. Back in the day before Heart of Thorns Fractal mobs used to get insane health and damage at higher levels, that wasn't challenging, nor fun, it was boring and annoying. Challenging content means content that makes you think, content that requires certain builds and choices and content that requires working with others, not damage sponge enemies that deal tons of damage, which would be the result of your suggestion.

> > >

> > > It's not remotely nonsensical. Limiting yourself in various ways requires different approaches to playing just like adding additional health/damage/mechanics to your opponent does. I'm sorry something so straightforward is too challenging for your thinking.

> > >

> >

> > Your condescension is noted and unwarranted.

> >

> > Additionally, it really doesn't change much of anything. Take Berserkers or Carrion stats for high damage for Power/Condi. Limiting ones choices of gear to blues and greens, yes, would allow only to choose from core game stats which are more limiting (but celestial is also among them). However, those are still stats that function well without being higher tiered gear.

> >

> > Again, being in blue gear of whatever stat combo doesnt matter. If I have low power because I'm playing off of Zerk, then I see what my profession can do to stack might or fury. Changing gear doesnt make you forget how to play.

>

> Your anger and dismissiveness of others offering you actual options is noted and unwarranted. Any condescension you perceive is a mirror of your attitude. I suggested a number of options and all you see is gear. That isn't all I suggested for ways to challenge yourself. If you are wanting new mechanics introduced, you know you will learn how to manage those and they will then become "too easy", right? Then what, you'll need an "extra-hard mode"? Challenging yourself is an option available to you now, if you really want it. Do you?

 

Regarding tone: it's hard to convey the tone I wanted to set in a pure text format. The earlier posts are definitely less defensive; however, you should be able to see that it has become more difficult to remain stoic, particularily if you've noticed the tone the responses as they approach this point of the thread and are reading them from a truly neutral stance.

 

The burden of making the challenge lies on the game first and the player second. I grant that it would make the game "harder" from the standpoint of taking a bit more damage from mobs due to a smaller armor value. Also, that I would do less damage to them, respectively. However, I am the type of player that does not like the idea of a handicap and do not wish to do that.

 

Yes, any combat that requires a learning curve to either survive or kill the foe faster would also mean you get to a point where it becomes easier over time. I'm saying, partly, that that experience has been lacking in recent years.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > As pointed out many times, hard mode just couldn’t work here in open world. The games event structure could not support splitting up the population to this extent, especially given the complaints about low map populations already. Difficulty also varies too much already within open world that scaling to a hard mode would be difficult to pull off satisfactory.

> >

> > Hard mode would potentially work in instances like story and dungeons, but use of challenge motes is a better system for gw2 to achieve that goal.

> >

> > Hard mode was a mode that worked for gw1 (sort of anyway - it wasn’t implemented well). It couldn’t work in gw2 open world as the structure is too different

>

> It could work on world bosses and propably metas and with some relatively smart ideas the existing metas and maps dont need to die for it to happen.

 

Not at all. The entire premise of Hard Mode is that the foes get buffed - any alteration to foes in open world would apply to **every player**. That's not hard mode, that's merely buffing the foes. There are only two ways to make Hard Mode work in the open world: 1) split the playerbase between a "normal version" and a "hard version" of the map, which is counter to what ArenaNet wants and is what Randulf talks about; 2) apply a debuff but to the player that's no different than simply not maxing out gear, which is both not a really big deal and not what players want.

 

It can work for story instances, but when responding to the idea of giving more challenge mode instances, ArenaNet has stated it's a lot of work, as they're effectively doubling every boss fight for one-time rewards.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > As pointed out many times, hard mode just couldn’t work here in open world. The games event structure could not support splitting up the population to this extent, especially given the complaints about low map populations already. Difficulty also varies too much already within open world that scaling to a hard mode would be difficult to pull off satisfactory.

> > >

> > > Hard mode would potentially work in instances like story and dungeons, but use of challenge motes is a better system for gw2 to achieve that goal.

> > >

> > > Hard mode was a mode that worked for gw1 (sort of anyway - it wasn’t implemented well). It couldn’t work in gw2 open world as the structure is too different

> >

> > It could work on world bosses and propably metas and with some relatively smart ideas the existing metas and maps dont need to die for it to happen.

>

> Not at all. The entire premise of Hard Mode is that the foes get buffed - any alteration to foes in open world would apply to **every player**. That's not hard mode, that's merely buffing the foes. There are only two ways to make Hard Mode work in the open world: 1) split the playerbase between a "normal version" and a "hard version" of the map, which is counter to what ArenaNet wants and is what Randulf talks about; 2) apply a debuff but to the player that's no different than simply not maxing out gear, which is both not a really big deal and not what players want.

>

> It can work for story instances, but when responding to the idea of giving more challenge mode instances, ArenaNet has stated it's a lot of work, as they're effectively doubling every boss fight for one-time rewards.

 

The one Time rewards pitfall is a hole they've dug themselves into.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> > >

> > > I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

> >

> > It's the same difference. It doesn't matter what the source of the challenge is, if challenge is what you actually want instead of just more rewards. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out currently viable options for what you consider a "problem", that really isn't. If you want the challenge to include other players, make a hardcore guild or the like and set whatever gameplay rules are desired, there's that issue solved. GW1 was a completely different game. In GW2 maps aren't all instanced, there are no henchmen/heroes, non-story instance maps can't be "cleared", resurrection works differently, etc., so expecting GW2 to offer something comparable to the GW1 hard mode experience is unlikely and would rob the core game of a lot of development resources.

> >

>

> A major point of order in this inane argument to tell people to "put on blues or greens" is that sure, we could all go back to that and it would reduce number values on individual skills. However, you don't actually lessen a players comprehension of combat mechanics by doing this. Many of us who've been here since launch have had a full seven years to "get good" for lack of a better phrase. What, are people supposed to unlearn combat? It's _not at all_ the "same difference" when that is factored in. That's why people necessarily *can* do raids in blues and greens. Because the power between good damage isn't locked so much behind gear in this game as it is in the skill queuing and positioning/dodging in combat. The only thing gear does in game is make it so that each individual packet has a higher minimum and maximum range. So thanks, but no thanks to that completely flippant suggestion @ everyone who ever thought it was legitimate.

 

It's not really an inane argument ... if I was Anet, that's EXACTLY how I would implement hardness levels.... I wouldn't go back and rework old content ... that's too much work for way too little interest to the players. I would affect the player in some negative way ... and it would be very likely to be a nerf on the stats. I'm betting that's a much simpler solution and it achieves the request.

[joneirikb.7506]

In order to make self handicap through gear challenging, you have to actually do something that changes the gameplay, not just increase the % of damage/armor. That's honestly not more than the difference of a good or bad build.

 

I'd do better on an actual build with white/blue zerker gear, than on random traits+random stats all ascended gear. As long as I actually know my class/build and can play it. I'd definitively kill things faster as well.

 

I've also been so bored with Open World Tyria that I've leveled characters with self handicaps like "only racial skills", "only white gear", "No weapons" (oh kitten that was boring!), and "no armor". Out of those the white gear was the easiest/fastest.

 

 

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> > > >

> > > > I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

> > >

> > > It's the same difference. It doesn't matter what the source of the challenge is, if challenge is what you actually want instead of just more rewards. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out currently viable options for what you consider a "problem", that really isn't. If you want the challenge to include other players, make a hardcore guild or the like and set whatever gameplay rules are desired, there's that issue solved. GW1 was a completely different game. In GW2 maps aren't all instanced, there are no henchmen/heroes, non-story instance maps can't be "cleared", resurrection works differently, etc., so expecting GW2 to offer something comparable to the GW1 hard mode experience is unlikely and would rob the core game of a lot of development resources.

> > >

> >

> > A major point of order in this inane argument to tell people to "put on blues or greens" is that sure, we could all go back to that and it would reduce number values on individual skills. However, you don't actually lessen a players comprehension of combat mechanics by doing this. Many of us who've been here since launch have had a full seven years to "get good" for lack of a better phrase. What, are people supposed to unlearn combat? It's _not at all_ the "same difference" when that is factored in. That's why people necessarily *can* do raids in blues and greens. Because the power between good damage isn't locked so much behind gear in this game as it is in the skill queuing and positioning/dodging in combat. The only thing gear does in game is make it so that each individual packet has a higher minimum and maximum range. So thanks, but no thanks to that completely flippant suggestion @ everyone who ever thought it was legitimate.

>

> It's not really an inane argument ... if I was Anet, that's EXACTLY how I would implement hardness levels....

 

Well it's a good thing you're not.

 

>I wouldn't go back and rework old content ... that's too much work for way too little interest to the players.

 

I'll point out that on a previous comment I proposed that they could do something-something "challenge zone/map/mode/whatever" as part of _a future release_. Forget going back to modify previous content, and lets think forward instead. If they added something comprable to HM as part of a future feature, would that allay some of your concerns?

 

> I would affect the player in some negative way ... and it would be very likely to be a nerf on the stats. I'm betting that's a much simpler solution and it achieves the request.

 

How precisely would that be carried out without feeling cheap?

 

 

[Iron.4372]

I think the best way to introduce Hard Mode in GW1-Style in GW2-Style would be fantastic idea, but there is always "but" .

 

Basing on the latest news - current Living World team's working on new events to old maps. It may happen in different instance OR it will happen everywhere, like Kessex Hills during LS1. That leaves open doors to stand a question - Maybe it will be Hard Mode for different instance of the map?

 

The other side - that would mean - small/no new lore/maps - depending on current resources.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Iron.4372" said:

> I think the best way to introduce Hard Mode in GW1-Style in GW2-Style would be fantastic idea, but there is always "but" .

>

> Basing on the latest news - current Living World team's working on new events to old maps. It may happen in different instance OR it will happen everywhere, like Kessex Hills during LS1. That leaves open doors to stand a question - Maybe it will be Hard Mode for different instance of the map?

>

> The other side - that would mean - small/no new lore/maps - depending on current resources.

 

Even that I would welcome more than ignoring things altogether.

[Iron.4372]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"Iron.4372" said:

> > I think the best way to introduce Hard Mode in GW1-Style in GW2-Style would be fantastic idea, but there is always "but" .

> >

> > Basing on the latest news - current Living World team's working on new events to old maps. It may happen in different instance OR it will happen everywhere, like Kessex Hills during LS1. That leaves open doors to stand a question - Maybe it will be Hard Mode for different instance of the map?

> >

> > The other side - that would mean - small/no new lore/maps - depending on current resources.

>

> Even that I would welcome more than ignoring things altogether.

 

You don't know, if they are ignoring things - they're working the best they can. You can't show a random girl a Diamond Ring, that You were working for 6 months. You don't know what's going on inside ;)

[Vayne.8563]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > I think its a great idea if you want to lose populations and customers.. Many many players enjoy this game casually.. Hard mode only appeals to minority. Also GW1 hardmode was dead, no one did it..

>

> That's not my memory of HM but sure, fewer people played hard mode compared to regular.

>

> That said, a great deal of the currencies, rewards and more were farmable in _**solo**_ runs in portions of HM. Spirit spam farming ectos in UW are an example here.

>

> And frankly, considering how much regular PvE there is and always will be, I dont see the harm to the severity that you and others do.

>

> I've supported the game since GW1, wheres my say? Did the money I've spent in Gems not count? Surely as a paying customer i have some input, just as much as anybody else.

>

 

You bought a game, and the right to express your opinion. But in a big business your opinion only matters as much as the number of people who would benefit from it. If I started eating at a restaurant day one and I felt that I wanted more dished with dung in them, the restaurant wouldn't likely oblige me no matter how loyal I was, because most people wouldn't be interested.

 

Anet has seen how many people do CMs. How many people raid. How many people just do world bosses. They know their audience. You can ask for anything you want, but that doesn't mean you have the numbers to make a case for it. Sure you can want it. But a company doesn't make a game for any one person. They make games for specific demographics. Depending on the size of your demographic (not you individually), they'll make decisions based on that. I don't believe the hard core demographic is present in this game in enough numbers to justify the development time.