Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP

[Falan.1839]

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

 

> **Holosmith**

> Holosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

>

> This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

>

> * Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only

> * Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

>

 

 

The nerf on Kinetic Battery is on point and not too excessive. The Elixir U one might be a bit over the top and also missing the point, since I don't think the stability was the issue. Possibly 6s was a bit excessive with boon duration, but one seconds basically means no stability at all. Keep in mind that Corona is already borderline useless. I'd rather cut of 20% of the quickness on Eli U and leave the stability duration. If the stability is deemed problematic it might be a good idea to reduce the stacks from 2 to 1, since that would mean the rather lengthy stab period can be broken without making it a non-factor. With the current Corona Burst and the suggested new Eli U this would effectively mean no stability at all for Holo, since Elixir B isn't really a great option (no stunbreak) and the duration on other sources is too low to figure. A 1s stability is effectively just a stunbreak and can only be used as such.

[otto.5684]

For the current changes.

 

Holo changes are too small. Being a CC bot with very high damage, good sustain, good mobility and alphabet of boons, the changes are...weak. Removing the 6 sec stability is impactful, but no where close to enough.

 

Mirage, I think the staff changes are like 2 years too late, and to me, feel more like a band-aid. My concern with mirage, as a whole, it have been nerfed in sPvP to be nothing more than a ranged evade spam while AI (ranged clones) spam damage. Staff and scepter clones applying condi damage and ambushes has always been a problem, and will continue to be so. This is what needs to change. And almost every nerf to axe need to be reverted. This will be much better experience to play and play against mirage. What you are doing is just throwing another band-aid without solving the problem.

 

Warrior, my issue with SB always was the tether might regeneration. Much might stacking, with little effort. Instead, we get another nerf to rampage. I think we are approaching a point where none of warrior elite skills will be sPvP viable.

[Bear.9568]

Back to firebrand/scourge bunker, boon corrupt, torment and burning, then intsa rez each other if kitten goes bad.

 

Looks like balance is just reverting to the old way of condi application through fb and scourge.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"thehipone.6812" said:

>100blades is too stronk

 

*Vietnam Flashbacks*

 

 

[OutOfOrder.3719]

All of these changes are targeting the correct classes that have been considered Meta PvP classes based on metabattle and godsofpvp website communities.

 

I really feel the Holosmith elite traits should be focused on more than just nerfing Elixir U as it also effects Scrapper and core engineer. Holosmith Dps is still way to high and even has access to invisibility of all things. Please focus on Holosmith dps and the CC chain.

 

Balance is really tricky as nerfing mesmer staff condition damage doesn’t just effect condi Mirage, but also chronomancers and core mesmer. However, staff has been meta for condition Mirage for over 2 years and is probably the right direction to take. But again, the Mirage spec should really be focused on whenever possible. I actually don’t have a problem with Mirage cloak, but Mirage condition damage really comes from infinite horizon.

 

However, focusing on Rampage for Warrior is definitely the right direction to take as it’s been over performing for over a year. Although I don’t think the Rampage stun skills should do zero damage, those skills should at least do 50% less damage.

 

Now that Holosmith and Warrior are recognized as needing to be toned down, it now makes me feel less upset about my Scourge main being nerfed so hard last patch.

 

Thank you for the open communication and for reading feedback.

 

I think the PvP team should reconsider the shade mechanic changes to Scourge last patch as it removed Scourge Out of the meta, and is no longer considered even viable. However, if there are new changes coming to the Scourge to make it more support oriented that would be great. But if no changes are planned to improve Scourge, you should probably revert these changes to the Shade mechanic as it that really destroyed Scourge in PvP and PvE.

 

The problem of Scourge in WvW has always been Sand Savant and the changes last patch improved Scourge in WvW and destroyed Scourge in PVP. When you are in a party of 20 or more in WvW, it doesn’t matter as much as a Scourge cannot do damage simultaneously by both a shade and around you. However, when there is a team fight of 3vs3, or even 1vs1, it matters a whole lot more for a Scourge to place a shade offensively and turn around and place the shade directly on you when pressure starts to hit. Sometimes there is not enough time to place that 2nd shade on yourself when focused by 3 enemies.

 

My point is focusing on the real problem that makes a class imbalanced is crucial to keeping this game mode alive and having a future. You could completely destroy an elite spec or do nothing to change what is really the problem. Pinpointing what is really wrong and balancing it appropriately will make all the difference.

[JonasBL.8270]

Looks like good changes that is badly needed

[Gogdarth.6741]

> @"otto.5684" said:

 

Yeah, agreed about axe. It's super weird because right now it's basically a melee scepter that is worse at everything while still relying on projectiles for whatever reason.

 

Scepter auto: Literally generates clones, ranged

Axe auto: Has a floaty axe on third strike lol

 

Scepter defensive button: Block which flips to a blind that you can use without a target, evade after blocking, generate 2 clones

Axe defensive button: Throw yourself at your enemy point-blank, as well as all of your offensive fodder, in order to do what other Scepter button does, but put yourself at risk by that, short evade that requires a target, weird range which never feels enough

 

Axe 2: Long animation of you cosplaying a helicopter, leaving behind a node that will generate a clone by some arcane knowledge not even known to mirage itself half of the time, supposedly deals damage

Scepter 3: A deathray

 

Axe ambush: Loadsa projectiles but only usable melee-range, gets a hefty damage nerf without axe trait

Scepter ambush: Touhou, but Mesmer and no melee range (therefore risk) requirement while not performing all that worse whatsoever

 

Like, can we get some help for axe too soon? I miss it.

 

 

[JonasBL.8270]

> @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> While we are reducing efficacy of skills by over 99% let's take a look at firebrand, core necro, and power mirage too; who could all do with some reduction in power. Additionally, if we are sharply reducing the damage output (which I think is a good idea) then we had absolutely better be looking at the defensive output of some builds that regularly see use.

>

> Super appreciate the balance preview, this is infinitely more interaction with the dev team than we have had in months and months and months.

 

I don't say anything about your opinions about nerfing Elite specs, but consider this: If you nerfing a core class, you nerf it and **all** of it's Elite specs - The _entire _class will be nerfed

[Solo.5796]

 

>

> **Condi Thief**

> The main issue we’re looking to address with condi thief is the initial burst potential. Long term there are definitely questions about how this build is applying conditions, but for now we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

>

> * Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only

> * Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only

>

 

> **Staff Thief**

> As mentioned the other day, we want to revisit the recent change to Debilitating Arc for the next balance update. There are still concerns about putting it back to 4 initiative, but it doesn’t really make sense for it to coexist with Vault at 6. We’re reducing the cost to 5 while making some minor adjustments to Quick Pockets and Staff Master.

>

> * Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only

> * Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only

> * Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only

>

 

Nerfs to condi thief and staff dodge thief are most welcome. Can you just make sure you don't nerf aspects of daredevil that could impact other builds (like d/p which isn't even viable nowadays but that some ppl still find fun). For example, some people have suggested that escapist absolution shouldn't be a thing or should have a considerably longer ICD, but that will directly impact daredevil overall and not only staff thief, probably leaving core S/D the only viable thief build in the game.

 

 

[foste.3098]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Condi thief is strong because of this synergy. Consider making a change to sword 2. @"ZDragon.3046" made a suggestion that, if you use sword 2 to port and it misses or gets blocked/interrupted, you shouldn't get the flipover skill to return to where you were for a cooldown.

 

This sounds fine on paper until you realize it would give sword/x thieves infinite teleports as long as you can target something that is far away and proceed to spam infiltrators strike until you get to it; or run out of initiative. Giving a thief weapon skill a cooldown would go against the class design so that is probably a no.

The counter argument would be to make sword 2 only usable if you are in range of your target, how steal/swipe works, but that would restrict gap closing combos using sword.

[otto.5684]

@"Gogdarth.6741" To be fair, axe run much smoother than scepter. It is the clone spam through.. a block of all things, running around in a circle while evading, as clones deal damage, that are the issues. Axe is melee and the clones are much higher risk to be AOEed. You would think it would be much stronger than scepter. And it was, until Anet nerfed the fuck out of it, after they gutted vigor uptime. Scepter/staff is the only possibility left. And honestly, when axe/staff was the meta, it was staff, not axe, that was out performing. But it is not like Anet tries to understand what are the specific issues and try to resolve them. Something out performing? RANDOM NERF INCOMING.

 

There is a reason why we are here and patching staff now.. But what about everything else? Ya.. big shake incoming. I heard that before...

[rowdy.5107]

ANET looking for the easy way out by just nerfing everything only because people cry in the forums about builds that people are too lazy to learn how to beat..... Ehhh whatever.. just nerf everything to the ground.

[rowdy.5107]

If you are trying to turn the condi from burst to a grindy build. You need to boost HP or stability or something to balance these changes. If not, all you are doing is making thief useless in a fight. If you are gonna nerf something, you gotta find a balance to the thing you are nerfing.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"rowdy.5107" said:

> If you are trying to turn the condi from burst to a grindy build. You need to boost HP or stability or something to balance these changes. If not, all you are doing is making thief useless in a fight. If you are gonna nerf something, you gotta find a balance to the thing you are nerfing.

 

What? It's like u think a rogue class should be bursty u confused person u. Just because every other rogue archetypes are doesn't mean gw2 is or was initially sopose to be as well. I mean it's not like thief is low hp/armor that uses high mobility and evasiveness to survive like the other rogue's in other mmo's right? So why would it share their higher burst lower sustained dps designs as well?

Lol can't wait to see things a yr from now if game keeps tricking along.

I'm confused as to why u would have even picked thief to play if those were the playstyle's u wanted :)

The notes should have read. Duhhhh we'd a like to make the condi thief build less bursty but more grindy, ummm we realize this goes completely against the initial design of a rogue archetype and our very own thief class but we're gonna just go ahead and do it and provide no further compensation that may arise from doing so yeah that sounds great right guys?

Non thief players- "oh yes thsts definitely a step in the right direction hehe ;) good job devs"

[bravan.3876]

I am not sure why ppl still repeating "IH is the problem" like a narrowed Mantra after i explained very detailed and based on logic why IH is not the problem and why all previous suggestions from put ICD on it, destroying the clones after hit the ambush, make DE clones not do the ambush and what else stuff got mentioned will just kill the whole trait and all active and skillful gameplay aspects of that trait way more than the passive effects, because the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes? Otherwise explain to me how you all miss the active gameplay part of that trait so heavily (that explains why you barely see Power Mirages utilizing active combos with IH i guess, aside from spamming gs ambushes here and there) and explain to me why nerfing the condi ambushes instead a whole trait looks worse in your eyes. I am all ears and willing to learn otherwise pls stop calling out a trait without further explanations after i explained with 1000000 sentences why there is more into that trait than passive condi application and that the passivity mostly lies in the condi ambushes and not the trait.

 

I will not restart to analyse all suggestion to nerf IH which do not make sense and would even dumb down Mirage by killing all the active gameplay aspects from that trait for all builds. I only use one example that is ICD on IH (simply because it got explained by several different ppl already why an ICD on a dodge trait is stupid, still ppl always come up with that again and again, it is annoying when you don't see any learning effect, any constructive improvement in the discussion at all, and just repeating "IH is the problem" like a mantra also will not make that true, so pls explain at least why you think i am wrong).

 

Example why all suggestions to nerf IH i heard until now are all bad/shortsighted (example ICD):

 

ICD makes the dodge trait completely and for that even more passive because ppl cannot work active with it anymore when the trait is on ICD after they needed to dodge defensive. The active on purpose use for the traiteffect then is totally restricted down to uselessness by ICD and makes it a pure passive effect happening when the player needs to dodge an attack: The player can't and for that doesn't need to think about this trait at all anymore because he can't utilize it active anyway most of the time.

Is that rly that hard to understand? I can't believe that such obvious logic is that hard to get into your minds, i rly don't get it. If not by yourself then at least when it is explained to you by several ppl already. But it feels like talking to a wall or to someone not reading/ listening, so you ppl just repeat the same nerf suggestions like a broken record... ICD on dodge traits make the trait completely passive by preventing active on purpose use every time it is on ICD after a dodge the player did for defensive purpose only (aka evading an attack). When you want to make Condimirage more active then ICD on IH is the worst thing you can add. How would you feel about an ICD on Warrior dodge trait and how would a Warrior feel?

 

It is much easier to only adjust the overperforming condi ambush skill (either rework into something more utility based by adding non dmg condis and reduce the dmg or the easier way just reduce the dmg and in both cases give that reduced dmg back into shatters again) instead killing a whole trait for no reason. You either operate with a scalpel for fine tuning or you just murder the whole body with an axe. I prefer the first way, in particular because the result is the same: Less condiclone dmg gameplay (but in a way without killing active and reactive gameplay mechanics as a side effect). I get that most of you ppl only want an easy and fast fix you can understand without problems. IH is the easiest to put the finger on, it sounds good, must be right, right? No, not at all. As often stuff is not that easy and onesided.

 

I mean, you have the right goal, the same as me: Make Condimesmer more active playstyle again! But the ways you suggest to get there are completely contradicting this goal, even would dumb down the spec and kill an interesting active gameplay mechanic IH can and does offers with balanced and active ambush skills. Actually makes me crazy because i think the logic is obvious. I am just tired of reading nerf suggestions pretending to higher skill ceiling but in the end dumb down the game instead in my view, sadly it happens the most for Mesmer class.

 

Just my two cents as a multiclass player.

[rowdy.5107]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"rowdy.5107" said:

> > If you are trying to turn the condi from burst to a grindy build. You need to boost HP or stability or something to balance these changes. If not, all you are doing is making thief useless in a fight. If you are gonna nerf something, you gotta find a balance to the thing you are nerfing.

>

> What? It's like u think a rogue class should be bursty u confused person u. Just because every other rogue archetypes are doesn't mean gw2 is or was initially sopose to be as well. I mean it's not like thief is low hp/armor that uses high mobility and evasiveness to survive like the other rogue's in other mmo's right? So why would it share their higher burst lower sustained dos designs as well?

> Lol can't wait to see things a yr from now if game keeps tricking along.

> I'm confused as to why u would have even picked thief to play if those were the playstyle's u wanted :)

 

Thiefs best defense is his offense.. The longer the enemy stays alive. Your odds of surviving the fight drop. Yes you have evades, shadow steps, cloak exc.. But what happens when you cant burst somebody and that stuff starts running out? Perfect example: Ele and Guards shrug off a thiefs condi damage. The Only time they have a chance at beating them is if the thief can burst and HOPE the ele or guard wasn't paying attention. Or catch them in a cooldown. With all the sustain, armor, cleanse, heals exc that all the other classes have, Thief needs something to be able to keep up with them. At the LEAST more HP. Especially if anet is looking for a more "grindy" approach. If they want them to not burst and to actually last in a fight. They need to give the thief a little more sustainability so they can last in a fight.

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> I am not sure why ppl still repeating "IH is the problem" like a narrowed Mantra after i explained very detailed and based on logic why IH is not the problem and why all previous suggestions from put ICD on it, destroying the clones after hit the ambush, make DE clones not do the ambush and what else stuff got mentioned will just kill the whole trait and all active and skillful gameplay aspects of that trait way more than the passive effects, because the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes? Otherwise explain to me how you all miss the active gameplay part of that trait so heavily (that explains why you barely see Power Mirages utilizing active combos with IH i guess, aside from spamming gs ambushes here and there) and explain to me why nerfing the condi ambushes instead a whole trait looks worse in your eyes. I am all ears and willing to learn otherwise pls stop calling out a trait without further explanations after i explained with 1000000 sentences why there is more into that trait than passive condi application and that the passivity mostly lies in the condi ambushes and not the trait.

>

> I will not restart to analyse all suggestion to nerf IH which do not make sense and would even dumb down Mirage by killing all the active gameplay aspects from that trait for all builds. I only use one example that is ICD on IH (simply because it got explained by several different ppl already why an ICD on a dodge trait is stupid, still ppl always come up with that again and again, it is annoying when you don't see any learning effect, any constructive improvement in the discussion at all, and just repeating "IH is the problem" like a mantra also will not make that true, so pls explain at least why you think i am wrong).

>

> Example why all suggestions to nerf IH i heard until now are all bad/shortsighted (example ICD):

>

> ICD makes the dodge trait completely and for that even more passive because ppl cannot work active with it anymore when the trait is on ICD after they needed to dodge defensive. The active on purpose use for the traiteffect then is totally restricted down to uselessness by ICD and makes it a pure passive effect happening when the player needs to dodge an attack: The player can't and for that doesn't need to think about this trait at all anymore because he can't utilize it active anyway most of the time.

> Is that rly that hard to understand? I can't believe that such obvious logic is that hard to get into your minds, i rly don't get it. If not by yourself then at least when it is explained to you by several ppl already. But it feels like talking to a wall or to someone not reading/ listening, so you ppl just repeat the same nerf suggestions like a broken record... ICD on dodge traits make the trait completely passive by preventing active on purpose use every time it is on ICD after a dodge the player did for defensive purpose only (aka evading an attack). When you want to make Condimirage more active then ICD on IH is the worst thing you can add. How would you feel about an ICD on Warrior dodge trait and how would a Warrior feel?

>

> It is much easier to only adjust the overperforming condi ambush skill (either rework into something more utility based by adding non dmg condis and reduce the dmg or the easier way just reduce the dmg and in both cases give that reduced dmg back into shatters again) instead killing a whole trait for no reason. You either operate with a scalpel for fine tuning or you just murder the whole body with an axe. I prefer the first way, in particular because the result is the same: Less condiclone dmg gameplay (but in a way without killing active and reactive gameplay mechanics as a side effect). I get that most of you ppl only want an easy and fast fix you can understand without problems. IH is the easiest to put the finger on, it sounds good, must be right, right? No, not at all. As often stuff is not that easy and onesided.

>

> I mean, you have the right goal, the same as me: Make Condimesmer more active playstyle again! But the ways you suggest to get there are completely contradicting this goal, even would dumb down the spec and kill an interesting active gameplay mechanic IH can and does offers with balanced and active ambush skills. Actually makes me crazy because i think the logic is obvious. I am just tired of reading nerf suggestions pretending to higher skill ceiling but in the end dumb down the game instead in my view, sadly it happens the most for Mesmer class.

>

> Just my two cents as a multiclass player.

 

In introduction, I'm not at all for a IH change as the output damage is really low and more importantly : predictable (like "hey I'm doing a pretty staff animation, **evade in 3, 2 , 1 ,...** ") , even atm.

 

But What I can understand is that it mix the different way you have to evade :

- When you evade actively = burning an evade to ambush, it's fine, it's active and have counterpart etc.

- Whereas when you evade defensively =you evade a key skill, then poping the ambush by default.

- The the last way is burning an evade to save the clones from an aoe but is pretty rare in practise it's a side effect of a defensive evade.

 

Now using ambush offensively on condi build isn't worth it **that's why we see this passive gameplay** so people use it only defensively because it's more efficient to let the clone dps than to shatter them or to make them ambush.

 

Then I totally agree that it will be way better with a mesmer having a "hudge ambush" while clone having minor so that doing an ambush offensively worth it and evading a key skill didn't trigger average ambush. Because let's face it, most ambush are trash without IH.

Now this is the sheep effect of forums, one sheep say "nerf IH", all sheep who get killed by a mesmer go on by never playing it with no clue about what it implie.

 

 

[Exalted Quality.8534]

@"Cal Cohen.3527"

 

Coming from an Engineer main of many years, I respectfully believe you’re missing the mark with the Elixir U and Kinetic Battery nerfs.

 

Most people that actually play PvP would probably agree that the largest pain point with holos is the damage output, specifically, the forge auto attack chain.

 

The main concern is the tendency to nerf core trait lines and skills to address holos over-performing. Rest assured that people who can’t read holo forge’s hugely telegraphed skills and dodge said skills are likely to continue to complain about holos. When this happens, and the balance team finally decides to reduce forge damage a bit, please go back to revisit core engi skills/traits that have suffered because of holo’s prevalence in PvP.

 

Additionally, as some have already stated, don’t forget you already (understandably) nerfed corona burst stability for counter play reasons. Taking that into consideration, a move from 6s base to 1s is drastic, to say the least.

 

Don’t forget that scrapper is underperforming and core engi is non-existent. The more you weaken core skills, the worse this will get.

 

At any rate, we appreciate the communication.

 

Edit - please consider changing Toss Elixir U. The stun break on allies is almost always useless.

[gdubze.6015]

> @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

 

> Additionally, as some have already stated, don’t forget you already (understandably) nerfed corona burst stability for counter play reasons. Taking that into consideration, a move from 6s base to 1s is drastic, to say the least.

 

Mesmer wants a word with you! It happened to them so it should happen across the board

[HeadCrowned.6834]

Removing Sigil of agility is not the right thing to do imo. It also gives access to swiftness which some classes might lack. If the quickness is a problem, then put it to 1 second instead of 2, or think of something to replace it by.

[L A T I O N.8923]

> @"rowdy.5107" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"rowdy.5107" said:

> > > If you are trying to turn the condi from burst to a grindy build. You need to boost HP or stability or something to balance these changes. If not, all you are doing is making thief useless in a fight. If you are gonna nerf something, you gotta find a balance to the thing you are nerfing.

> >

> > What? It's like u think a rogue class should be bursty u confused person u. Just because every other rogue archetypes are doesn't mean gw2 is or was initially sopose to be as well. I mean it's not like thief is low hp/armor that uses high mobility and evasiveness to survive like the other rogue's in other mmo's right? So why would it share their higher burst lower sustained dos designs as well?

> > Lol can't wait to see things a yr from now if game keeps tricking along.

> > I'm confused as to why u would have even picked thief to play if those were the playstyle's u wanted :)

>

> Thiefs best defense is his offense.. The longer the enemy stays alive. Your odds of surviving the fight drop. Yes you have evades, shadow steps, cloak exc.. But what happens when you cant burst somebody and that stuff starts running out? Perfect example: Ele and Guards shrug off a thiefs condi damage. The Only time they have a chance at beating them is if the thief can burst and HOPE the ele or guard wasn't paying attention. Or catch them in a cooldown. With all the sustain, armor, cleanse, heals exc that all the other classes have, Thief needs something to be able to keep up with them. At the LEAST more HP. Especially if anet is looking for a more "grindy" approach. If they want them to not burst and to actually last in a fight. They need to give the thief a little more sustainability so they can last in a fight.

 

I mean if you rely on An enemy being unaware, this might not be a propper class for you

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes.

 

I'm fine with the condi ambushes getting redone instead, as long as the end result is a non braindead playstyle, but is that actually doable without upsetting pve?

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > I am not sure why ppl still repeating "IH is the problem" like a narrowed Mantra after i explained very detailed and based on logic why IH is not the problem and why all previous suggestions from put ICD on it, destroying the clones after hit the ambush, make DE clones not do the ambush and what else stuff got mentioned will just kill the whole trait and all active and skillful gameplay aspects of that trait way more than the passive effects, because the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes? Otherwise explain to me how you all miss the active gameplay part of that trait so heavily (that explains why you barely see Power Mirages utilizing active combos with IH i guess, aside from spamming gs ambushes here and there) and explain to me why nerfing the condi ambushes instead a whole trait looks worse in your eyes. I am all ears and willing to learn otherwise pls stop calling out a trait without further explanations after i explained with 1000000 sentences why there is more into that trait than passive condi application and that the passivity mostly lies in the condi ambushes and not the trait.

> >

> > I will not restart to analyse all suggestion to nerf IH which do not make sense and would even dumb down Mirage by killing all the active gameplay aspects from that trait for all builds. I only use one example that is ICD on IH (simply because it got explained by several different ppl already why an ICD on a dodge trait is stupid, still ppl always come up with that again and again, it is annoying when you don't see any learning effect, any constructive improvement in the discussion at all, and just repeating "IH is the problem" like a mantra also will not make that true, so pls explain at least why you think i am wrong).

> >

> > Example why all suggestions to nerf IH i heard until now are all bad/shortsighted (example ICD):

> >

> > ICD makes the dodge trait completely and for that even more passive because ppl cannot work active with it anymore when the trait is on ICD after they needed to dodge defensive. The active on purpose use for the traiteffect then is totally restricted down to uselessness by ICD and makes it a pure passive effect happening when the player needs to dodge an attack: The player can't and for that doesn't need to think about this trait at all anymore because he can't utilize it active anyway most of the time.

> > Is that rly that hard to understand? I can't believe that such obvious logic is that hard to get into your minds, i rly don't get it. If not by yourself then at least when it is explained to you by several ppl already. But it feels like talking to a wall or to someone not reading/ listening, so you ppl just repeat the same nerf suggestions like a broken record... ICD on dodge traits make the trait completely passive by preventing active on purpose use every time it is on ICD after a dodge the player did for defensive purpose only (aka evading an attack). When you want to make Condimirage more active then ICD on IH is the worst thing you can add. How would you feel about an ICD on Warrior dodge trait and how would a Warrior feel?

> >

> > It is much easier to only adjust the overperforming condi ambush skill (either rework into something more utility based by adding non dmg condis and reduce the dmg or the easier way just reduce the dmg and in both cases give that reduced dmg back into shatters again) instead killing a whole trait for no reason. You either operate with a scalpel for fine tuning or you just murder the whole body with an axe. I prefer the first way, in particular because the result is the same: Less condiclone dmg gameplay (but in a way without killing active and reactive gameplay mechanics as a side effect). I get that most of you ppl only want an easy and fast fix you can understand without problems. IH is the easiest to put the finger on, it sounds good, must be right, right? No, not at all. As often stuff is not that easy and onesided.

> >

> > I mean, you have the right goal, the same as me: Make Condimesmer more active playstyle again! But the ways you suggest to get there are completely contradicting this goal, even would dumb down the spec and kill an interesting active gameplay mechanic IH can and does offers with balanced and active ambush skills. Actually makes me crazy because i think the logic is obvious. I am just tired of reading nerf suggestions pretending to higher skill ceiling but in the end dumb down the game instead in my view, sadly it happens the most for Mesmer class.

> >

> > Just my two cents as a multiclass player.

>

> In introduction, I'm not at all for a IH change as the output damage is really low and more importantly : predictable (like "hey I'm doing a pretty staff animation, **evade in 3, 2 , 1 ,...** ") , even atm.

>

> But What I can understand is that it mix the different way you have to evade :

> - When you evade actively = burning an evade to ambush, it's fine, it's active and have counterpart etc.

> - Whereas when you evade defensively =you evade a key skill, then poping the ambush by default.

> - The the last way is burning an evade to save the clones from an aoe but is pretty rare in practise it's a side effect of a defensive evade.

>

> Now using ambush offensively on condi build isn't worth it **that's why we see this passive gameplay** so people use it only defensively because it's more efficient to let the clone dps than to shatter them or to make them ambush.

>

> Then I totally agree that it will be way better with a mesmer having a "hudge ambush" while clone having minor so that doing an ambush offensively worth it and evading a key skill didn't trigger average ambush. Because let's face it, most ambush are trash without IH.

> Now this is the sheep effect of forums, one sheep say "nerf IH", all sheep who get killed by a mesmer go on by never playing it with no clue about what it implie.

>

>

 

Yes dodge dmg traits always have this part of passivitiy that the effect still triggers also when the player only wants to evade an attack. But this you have with all dodge traits. It is good and bad (means a downside) for the player. Good because you even get the effect when not dodging offensive (in cases it hits the target at least) but also bad because when you have to dodge defensive in a moment not good for an offensive move (like your target it blocking, invuln, doding, has aegis or you are blinded etc) than you lose recources for an offensive use. Means you maybe don't have needed dodge ressources rdy when you want to use your dodge only offensive. It is a trade off you have to manage, makes dodge management quit interesting and clearly not more passive or easier. Even more when the dodge trait is not only about dmg but about effects you can use to counter your opponent moves (like interrupts or blinding).

 

You can counter this passive effect or at least reduce it to a minimum very easy by not giving dodge traits such high value that passively spammed during pure defensive gameplay is rewarding enough (actually that is the case with condiclones). Means if the trait is about dmg only, than at least it should not be too high dmg. Even better are dodge traits providing effects over high dmg, these effect often are not optimal timed when used only during defensive dodges. So the player is forced to actively and reactively use dodges pure offensive to outplay the opponent and play the build near to its highest potential. This is atm not given for Condi ambush skills and as mentioned even normal condi clone autoattacks are still too strong compared to power clone autoattacks in terms of dmg. If you now just reduce the dmg from clone ambushes/ normal autoattacks and add this to shatters again, than you will get more active gameplay without killing IH completely on Condi and other builds already having active/ reactive gameplay with that. Also the Mesmers own ambush should not be too strong, or do you think only spam dodge and autoattack would be stillful? That ofc should not be rewarding enough to be the primary playstyle either but i don't rly see that given on any Mirage ambush skill atm. Only the condi ambushes and normal autoattacks from clones i see as a problem right now.

[Vicariuz.1605]

> @"JonasBL.8270" said:

> > @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > While we are reducing efficacy of skills by over 99% let's take a look at firebrand, core necro, and power mirage too; who could all do with some reduction in power. Additionally, if we are sharply reducing the damage output (which I think is a good idea) then we had absolutely better be looking at the defensive output of some builds that regularly see use.

> >

> > Super appreciate the balance preview, this is infinitely more interaction with the dev team than we have had in months and months and months.

>

> I don't say anything about your opinions about nerfing Elite specs, but consider this: If you nerfing a core class, you nerf it and **all** of it's Elite specs - The _entire _class will be nerfed

 

feel free to check my post history to see my defense of core classes suffering due to overperforming elite specs.

[Menzo.2185]

The real problem with Power or Condi Mirages are none of that, it's basically by having a OP skill inside auto-attack after a dodge. Remove that, bring something new to the Mirage, nothing OP, and then rollback all bad changes since PoF to Chrono and Core Mesmer. Done!

 

And never again create a expansion with specializations so damn OP than the older one's. BUT please, create something new and fresh to the game.

Bring new WvW and PvP Maps to the table, New UI skills to the game, create a better TARGET icon than this damn red arrow (I'm colorblind), Zoom In n Out to the Character Selections, make the player think in what skill they should use instead of face-rolling or spamming skills without think. Make this game great again!!!!!