Holosmith has too little stability

[Math.5123]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206"

> > That never happened in my entire GW2 lifespan so, you really have to try and make it happen.

>

> It's happened to me many times, especially during HoT days. You must not have played core engi in PvP much.

>

> Hell, I lost a Toss Elixir U the other day to a reaper who ran at me with [Death's Charge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Charge). I started to cast the skill when he initiated the charge, and it went "poof"! Exactly that noise.

>

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > Also saying that 4 seconds is nothing, have you know that most skills in this game that grant stability do no more than that, which means it's in line with the majority of the content that gives stability depending on their effects and application.

>

> * Firebrand spits out stability like nobody's business. That's one of their biggest balance issues, honestly. Core guard has a [shout](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Stand_Your_Ground!%22) for 6s.

 

Firebrand only "shits" out stability on their 85 second cd tome, and on Mantra (but then they don't have Renewed Focus). No core guard will ever run Stand Your Ground!.

> * Dolyak's signet grants [8 seconds](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Signet).

 

No Warrior will ever run Dolyak's Signet

> * [Dolyak stance](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance) grants 6 seconds.

 

I'll give you this one, sure.

> * [Armor of earth](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor_of_Earth) grants 6 seconds.

 

Fucking stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

> * [Trail of Anguish](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trail_of_Anguish) grants 6 seconds. [infusing Terror](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusing_Terror) grants 6 seconds.

 

Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

>

> And bear in mind, none of these skills have cast times (seriously, they're all instantaneous, I didn't bother to include the non-instantaneous stability skills), nor doi any of them have awkward ground targeting. Nor do they have to worry about projectile destruction. Toss Elixir B is the only core engineer skill which grants more than a [second](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_U) of [stability](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rumble), and it has several conditions attached to it. Stability is effective when you can predict or read an enemy's attacks -- a cast time and ground targeting on it makes it substantially worse.

 

Entering tome to "spam stability" has a cast time, and the both epilogue 1 and 5 have cast times. So technically you cast it twice to even get the stab in the first place.

 

Holosmith has had close to permanent stability for so long that you people have gotten used to being completely and utterly immune to any form of Hard CC. I'm still rolling core guard, which has 5 seconds of stab on F3. That's it, but learning how to look out for animations and knowing what matchups to take and which not to is part of what made the game interesting back in core and even in HoT. People are so used to blindly rushing in spamming their rotation and anything that moves nowadays rather than play reactively. The fact that holo has a disgusting amount of hard hitting, hard CCs, insane re-sustain potential that wasn't touched, they should not also be able to out-trade other cc-heavy classes without thinking.

 

Yes, I know Holo isn't really in the meta in AT's right now. But they are still in a far greater spot than more than half of the other elite specs and core professions.

>

> One of my ongoing complaints about the "Toss Elixir" skills is this kind of thing. It should be more like "smash elixir," where it's a PBAoE.

 

 

[Shao.7236]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Hederrain.9207" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > Holo shouldn't even have any stab to begin with, so good ridance.

> >

> > yea holo should be free kill and ping pong ball, nothing in the game dosnt have stability (maybe except for thieves) but holo deserves to have none?

> > seems biased to me .

> > core engi as a whole have poor acces to stab besides toss elixir b and juggernaut gm trait. nerfing elixir U this hard was a bad choice on anets side but it is what it is.

> >

> > OP:

> > holo is fine. slot elixir b and u get all the stab u need. sure u lack a block but kiting goes a long way. i dont feel different after nerfs. play safe, thats about it

>

> Actually, thief does have stab blinding powder from deception, consume plasma detonate plasma, and blinding powder is decently accessible

 

1 second of Stability on stunbreak should be a rule of thumb for all skills tbh, it's a healthy way to discourage CC spam and give people a chance to reply with something.

 

I would only ignore Revenant for said rule since they not only have the highest stability uptime in the game, but also a large amount of stunbreaks at hand, I speak from experience that Revenant are hardly ever hard CC unless they are careless of their energy pool which is honestly an achievement to do since I can't even get myself to be stuck in situations like this even when I am reckless for certain risky plays.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> @"Vagrant.7206"

>

> They're all 30+ seconds.

>

> Engineer is designed to be full of key presses, that doesn't come off as a surprise when you can U then Toss B but not have one skill that does it all at once.

 

Umm... what? Your argument is that it is a class, just like everyone else? Yes, engineer can have multiple key presses. So can other classes. I am confused.

 

Also, trail of anguish and infusing terror have the same recharge time as toss elixir b. And again, no cast time. And no ground targeting. And no projectile. Even the 30s recharge skills don't have to put up with that.

 

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> All I'm seeing is people having lost what they took for granted on something that was fundamentally overperforming, it's time to adjust. I often play core Engineer and it's quite playable, so should Holosmith.

 

[sure thing bub](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/94442/core-engineer-my-experience-and-thoughts-so-far).

 

> @"Hederrain.9207" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Also how does Holosmith not beat One Shot Core Mesmer?

> >

> > One shot core mesmer is a build that is extremely glassy, only a couple of hard mitigation abilities, and it's survivability comes from maximizing stealth uptime, and holosmith still farts out reveal without even trying.

> @"Vagrant.7206"

> rifle elixir holo should always beat one shot core mes. its not a question if the holo is glassy or not. engi's just got too much utility if played by ppl that can react to sounds and dodge a giant etheral greatsword flying their way.

>

> also ive never had toss elixir B destroyed by projectile hate and i got 3k hours on engi alone.

 

Guess you never played during the HoT days, or against an ele with a [focus](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swirling_Winds). I've seen my tossed elixirs destroyed many, many times.

 

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206"

> > > That never happened in my entire GW2 lifespan so, you really have to try and make it happen.

> >

> > It's happened to me many times, especially during HoT days. You must not have played core engi in PvP much.

> >

> > Hell, I lost a Toss Elixir U the other day to a reaper who ran at me with [Death's Charge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Charge). I started to cast the skill when he initiated the charge, and it went "poof"! Exactly that noise.

> >

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > Also saying that 4 seconds is nothing, have you know that most skills in this game that grant stability do no more than that, which means it's in line with the majority of the content that gives stability depending on their effects and application.

> >

> > * Firebrand spits out stability like nobody's business. That's one of their biggest balance issues, honestly. Core guard has a [shout](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Stand_Your_Ground!%22) for 6s.

>

> Firebrand only "kitten" out stability on their 85 second cd tome, and on Mantra (but then they don't have Renewed Focus). No core guard will ever run Stand Your Ground!.

> > * Dolyak's signet grants [8 seconds](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Signet).

>

> No Warrior will ever run Dolyak's Signet

> > * [Dolyak stance](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance) grants 6 seconds.

>

> I'll give you this one, sure.

> > * [Armor of earth](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor_of_Earth) grants 6 seconds.

>

> kitten stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

> > * [Trail of Anguish](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trail_of_Anguish) grants 6 seconds. [infusing Terror](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusing_Terror) grants 6 seconds.

>

> Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

 

Classic internet argument: "These skills aren't meta right now, therefore they aren't relevant."

 

Elixir B isn't meta either, but I guess that's where this argument is going. Toss Elixir B is the only core engi skill with reasonable stability uptime, and I'm pointing out that **it's pretty trash.**

 

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

 

Why not? It's pretty comparable to Engineer stab uptime.

 

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Holosmith has had close to permanent stability for so long that you people have gotten used to being completely and utterly immune to any form of Hard CC. I'm still rolling core guard, which has 5 seconds of stab on F3. That's it, but learning how to look out for animations and knowing what matchups to take and which not to is part of what made the game interesting back in core and even in HoT. People are so used to blindly rushing in spamming their rotation and anything that moves nowadays rather than play reactively. The fact that holo has a disgusting amount of hard hitting, hard CCs, insane re-sustain potential that wasn't touched, they should not also be able to out-trade other cc-heavy classes without thinking.

 

What are you even talking about? The closest holo had to "permanent stability" was when PoF launched, back when scourge was so stupidly powerful it corrupted everything. There's never been a point where engineer didn't have to worry about CC.

 

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Hederrain.9207" said:

> > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > Holo shouldn't even have any stab to begin with, so good ridance.

> > >

> > > yea holo should be free kill and ping pong ball, nothing in the game dosnt have stability (maybe except for thieves) but holo deserves to have none?

> > > seems biased to me .

> > > core engi as a whole have poor acces to stab besides toss elixir b and juggernaut gm trait. nerfing elixir U this hard was a bad choice on anets side but it is what it is.

> > >

> > > OP:

> > > holo is fine. slot elixir b and u get all the stab u need. sure u lack a block but kiting goes a long way. i dont feel different after nerfs. play safe, thats about it

> >

> > Actually, thief does have stab blinding powder from deception, consume plasma detonate plasma, and blinding powder is decently accessible

>

> 1 second of Stability on stunbreak should be a rule of thumb for all skills tbh, it's a healthy way to discourage CC spam and give people a chance to reply with something.

 

I definitely agree with this. A lot of the problem with stunbreaks for engineer is that they don't provide any kind of defense against a follow-up CC. I've found [Rumble](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rumble) to be more useful than [superspeed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superspeed_(skill)) for this reason, despite the fact that it's on a 40s cooldown instead of 25s.

[Hederrain.9207]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> Guess you never played during the HoT days, or against an ele with a [focus](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swirling_Winds). I've seen my tossed elixirs destroyed many, many times.

 

ive fought eles alot. i also dont mindlessly spam toss elixirs into lightning focus 4 since i know it dosnt work. thats why it dosnt happen to me

 

 

[shadowpass.4236]

Just time Corona Bursts instead of spamming it off cooldown and covering the gaps with Elixir U pre-nerf and you still have very high stability uptime.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Just time Corona Bursts instead of spamming it off cooldown and covering the gaps with Elixir U pre-nerf and you still have very high stability uptime.

 

I can't play with pre-nerf Elixir U.

 

> @"Hederrain.9207" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > Guess you never played during the HoT days, or against an ele with a [focus](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swirling_Winds). I've seen my tossed elixirs destroyed many, many times.

>

> ive fought eles alot. i also dont mindlessly spam toss elixirs into lightning focus 4 since i know it dosnt work. thats why it dosnt happen to me

 

And not once in your life has an ele cast that skill at the same time you cast yours?

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > Just time Corona Bursts instead of spamming it off cooldown and covering the gaps with Elixir U pre-nerf and you still have very high stability uptime.

>

> I can't play with pre-nerf Elixir U.

 

Okay but you can Toss Elixir B and time your Corona Bursts.

[Elmo Benchwarmer.3025]

I'm a filthy casual so my opinion has obviously got to go ignored, but I actually never enjoyed playing (the Elixir/Tools variant) Holosmith more. The longer cool down on Photon Wall, the reduced upkeep of Stability and the overall lower sustain and range make me feel like my input and my positioning matter more. Timing and ability management also seem way more important than before. It suddenly feels satisfying to pull it off. That is a nice thing. So even if further nerfs still need to happen we are IMHO finally getting somewhere.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" said:

> I'm a filthy casual so my opinion has obviously got to go ignored, but I actually never enjoyed playing (the Elixir/Tools variant) Holosmith more. The longer cool down on Photon Wall, the reduced upkeep of Stability and the overall lower sustain and range make me feel like my input and my positioning matter more. Timing and ability management also seem way more important than before. It suddenly feels satisfying to pull it off. That is a nice thing. So even if further nerfs still need to happen we are IMHO finally getting somewhere.

 

I Just want steam roll class gone, when you are at a slight disadvantage against holo he no longer has to play well. Just run at you.

CC ? no stab.

Burst? no passive.

You run? i have more mobility.

You fight back? turret healed to full.

It leads to scenarios where if you give any lead to holo he just runs at you, facetanks everything you throw at him. And the time it takes you to fight back just gets you killed, no risk for him becouse aylmao turret to full heal stealth and other means.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

imo they should've kept the stab and taken off the vigor and quickness.

[Elmo Benchwarmer.3025]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" said:

> > I'm a filthy casual so my opinion has obviously got to go ignored, but I actually never enjoyed playing (the Elixir/Tools variant) Holosmith more. The longer cool down on Photon Wall, the reduced upkeep of Stability and the overall lower sustain and range make me feel like my input and my positioning matter more. Timing and ability management also seem way more important than before. It suddenly feels satisfying to pull it off. That is a nice thing. So even if further nerfs still need to happen we are IMHO finally getting somewhere.

>

> I Just want steam roll class gone, when you are at a slight disadvantage against holo he no longer has to play well. Just run at you.

> CC ? no stab.

> Burst? no passive.

> You run? i have more mobility.

> You fight back? turret healed to full.

> It leads to scenarios where if you give any lead to holo he just runs at you, facetanks everything you throw at him. And the time it takes you to fight back just gets you killed, no risk for him becouse aylmao turret to full heal stealth and other means.

 

I'm one of those fools that for better or worse still plays core Engineer. I am very used to getting my head bashed in. So I definitely agree with all you say.

 

That said, the nerfs are noticeable. Holosmith is weaker than it used to be. But to be fair you now have to pay more attention. That was at least my impression. And I can guarantee you I do not enjoy either of the Engineer expansion specialisations.

 

Were the latest changes enough? No, definitely not. That's why we're up for a big patch in Q1 next year.

 

This is all I really have to say.

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

Holo is good, all that we need is Huge nerfs in FB / Thief

Medium Nerf in Warrior Revs

Low nerfs in Soulbeast & Mirage.

Holo only needs a huge buff in PvE.

[Daishi.6027]

Sorry, the amount of stability is NOT too low. Prior, Holo could kite out and heal up for free easily shifting momentum unless CCed, and although the window was counterable it was very very tight, and only accomplished reliably* (As in: didn't need significant set up and positioning) by certain builds; that also struggled in the matchup for the sheer amount of power, and the frequency of the power.

 

Yes some other things will be a problem. Anything that hasn't been either frequently, recently, or properly nerfed can still be a problem, and they will eventually be toned down to. But Holo's stability is where it should be, and should have been. Akin to how Mirage cloak should have always been a 3/4 evasion.

[Lacko.6572]

> @"memausz.7264" said:

> After patch...

>

> Can't win vs. warrior (was already the case vs. spellbreaker pre-patch, but now all warriors dunk you)

> Can't win vs. ranger's longbow bursts, greatsword block -> CC combos and subtle gazelle animations that hit for 12K and are really hard to dodge since they are so fast

> Can't win vs. heralds, they will shread you

> Can't win vs. symbol FB's stupidly overpowered AOEs, and has a hard time vs. dragonhunters (YES, DRAGONHUNTERS)

> Can't win vs. reaper or core necro (We all know scourge is underpowered rn)

> Can't win vs daredevil and core thief's pistol whip (which is broken) and all their CCs, nor can it win vs a deadeye in constant stealth and one-shotting and CCing

> It can't win vs mirage or one shot core mesmer (maybe could win vs chrono)

> It unfavorable vs burn weaver, and extremely vulnerable to one shot weaver and power air overload tempest builds

> It can't win vs. knockback scrapper

>

> That's what nerfing Elixir U did to holosmith. It's now a sub-par class. Thanks for whining without being educated all the time on forums and not understanding the role holosmith filled. It was meant to farm people who were underperforming in matches as it was the dmg-doing roamer. Now it gets farmed by someone with even 1 follow up CC and it's so awful. It feels Druid, man.

>

> You can have all the other nerfs (Heat Therapy, Quickness), but Elixir U needs at least 3 seconds base Stab in PvP.

>

>

 

I like how you mentioned and gave a reason for every class in-game to completly shit on holo, even holo himself! xD

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

This is what you might call carry-spec withdrawal.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> This is what you might call carry-spec withdrawal.

 

When you get ping-ponged in teamfights, not really.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > This is what you might call carry-spec withdrawal.

>

> When you get ping-ponged in teamfights, not really.

 

now they gotta position instead of running to the middle :D

[Math.5123]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > This is what you might call carry-spec withdrawal.

>

> When you get ping-ponged in teamfights, not really.

 

Funny how I'm not getting ping ponged in teamfights on core guard. Whilst having no ranged pressure (unlike Holo) and waaaaayyyyy less stability. Less dodges and less blocks. Maybe I'm just that good, I don't know.

[Falan.1839]

Or maybe it's because you at least have 2 ports and a stunbreak that gives more than 1s of stability. Also 4 stunbreaks overall when you refresh your F3.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

* Core Game: Elixir U doesn't have stab. Players are capable of playing game without much problems.

* HoT Release: Added kitten amount of powercreep(dmg, condi, ccs, boons, mobility, etc.). Elixir U still doesn't have stab. Players still are capable of playing fine.

* PoF Release: Another increase in powercreep. Elixir U still doesn't have stab. Players still are capable of playing fine.

* July 10, 2018: Unnecessary changes(added powercreep for unknown reasons):

This skill now grants quickness, vigor, and 2 stacks of stability for 6 seconds instead of quickness and either might or fury.

This skill will still break stuns.

Players think they're skilled somehow.

* December 03, 2019: Reduced powercreep change by a very small amount in PvP only.

Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.

Playerbase: UnPlAyAbLe.

* Me: ???

Are you guys serious? Maybe instead of asking for buffs everywhere just tone down every powercreeped aspect of classes? It would be much more healthy for the whole game and MAYBE new players would be more willing to go play PvP if they'll finally be capable of seeing what's happening on the screen?

Learn to play smart, like seriously... This game is still far too powercreeped...

[Falan.1839]

Yes, sure, if warriors WOULDN'T shit out a hard cc every 5-10 (shield bash, bulls charge, full counter, Dagger 3 all on decently low cds when traited, + 3 more on rampage), if pistol whip thieves WOULDN'T immob and stun you about every 3-5s with not running into trouble on their initiative, if ranger pets WOULDN'T AI CC you at completely random moments etc, if Ele WOULDN'T have two instant ccs on his offhand alone, then Holo WOULD have enough stability. But it's a bit of a weird policy to delete one spec completely from competitive play while "the big balance patch" is still months away and nobody knows what it will bring in the end.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

> @"Falan.1839" said:

> Yes, sure, if warriors WOULDN'T kitten out a hard cc every 5-10 (shield bash, bulls charge, full counter, Dagger 3 all on decently low cds when traited, + 3 more on rampage), if pistol whip thieves WOULDN'T immob and stun you about every 3-5s with not running into trouble on their initiative, if ranger pets WOULDN'T AI CC you at completely random moments etc, if Ele WOULDN'T have two instant ccs on his offhand alone, then Holo WOULD have enough stability. But it's a bit of a weird policy to delete one spec completely from competitive play while "the big balance patch" is still months away and nobody knows what it will bring in the end.

 

Warriors were always kitten class with overstacked kit since 2012(yea boi, shout warrior? hamwar?) and it only worsened with both expansions, same goes for other classes. Pet "CC" isn't as random as you think, usually after swap, pet will use A or B ability, so it's kinda predictable, much more problematic is dumb merge mechanic(kill pet to lessen rangers pressure? nah) and boon spammability of SoulBeast. Only skill on Ele off-hand that doesn't have cast time is "Updraft", rest of skills have them. You can only blame a-net for bad balance decisions. Be happy though, Full Counter would crit you for like 6k+ because some random thingie would trigger it, but thankfully it was properly nerfed to the ground. Thief is a problem child of gw2 aswell, it will never be properly balanced with initiative mechanic allowing to spam skills(be it Unload, Vault, Pistol Whip, Death Blossom or whatever).

Sorry, little one, but you need to learn how to kite, when to disengage, where and how to engage, you can't just yolo into point and expect broken class to carry you(holosmith need massive nerfs to either damage or sustain, or even better, both). There are classes without much access to stability and they're doing fine.

Good old times of using brain to win fights need to come back to GW2. Now it's just getting carried by builds and RNGesus that blessed you with lucky MU... Nothing beside that.

 

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Falan.1839" said:

> it's a bit of a weird policy to delete one spec completely from competitive play while "the big balance patch" is still months away and nobody knows what it will bring in the end.

 

Turning something from overpowered to reasonably viable isn't deleting it from competitive play.

If you relied so hard on your stability, maybe you should train other ways of evasion, like stepping out of range, or not attacking when a warrior is using ~~Full~~ Counter.

It's a **good** change that Holosmiths can't run in and ignore all CC anymore.

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Falan.1839" said:

> > it's a bit of a weird policy to delete one spec completely from competitive play while "the big balance patch" is still months away and nobody knows what it will bring in the end.

>

> Turning something from overpowered to reasonably viable isn't deleting it from competitive play.

> If you relied so hard on your stability, maybe you should train other ways of evasion, like stepping out of range, or not attacking when a warrior is using ~~Full~~ Counter.

> It's a **good** change that Holosmiths can't run in and ignore all CC anymore.

>

 

turning something from overpowered to reasonably viable is EXACTLY what deleting from competitive play means.

Competitive players play the most broken builds. Why would you take fair build if you can take something thats overpowered?

[JETWING.2759]

With the big balance patch comming soon, change the "Laser's Edge" trait to additionaly works out of Photon Forge may put the Holo on a viable spot. Not longer forcing them to stay on Photon Forge AND hit Corona Burst to play.

 

About Elixirs, my thoughts [, if they worth something,] are that Elixir B and Exilir H looks redundant, granting near same boons (the worth exception is Protection, because Regeneration has no height on this context) while Elixir U looks the strange element, not having a clear and real function (why "Elixir U"?).

The Elixirs C, R and S stills near perfect, deserving few increments that don't comes to case for now.

The Elixir X shares the same problem that Elixir U.