Fashion wars is becoming unblanced.

[Zexanima.7851]

Screw me for drawing parallels I guess. Here is my refactored argument:

 

"Providing buyable skins that become on par with skins locked behind in game rewards invalidates the player effort required to obtain those in-game skins. This also chips away at the idea of prestige in the game as form of a progression ladder and curbs the idea of 'fashion' as a form of accomplishment."

 

 

~~Another thread around the new mythic skins got me thinking and I'd like to discuss this with other players. By most people's current definition GW2 isn't 'pay-to-win'. I don't gain a significant advantage over other players by purchasing cash shop items. Cash shop items provided are either convince, pay-to-go-faster, or **cosmetic**. Therein lies the rub. A good portion of what is considered the end game of guild wars is based around the hunting and obtaining of cosmetic items. When cosmetic items only obtainable through the cash shop start to approach and surpass the quality and uniqueness of in-game end-game cosmetics does this start to meddle with the idea of pay-to-win?~~

 

~~I've seen players both in game and on the forums start to express frustration around this and that's what led me to want to bring up this topic. Personally I'm not ready to grab my torch and pitch fork yet. I understand they have to earn revenue some how and I'm willing to contribute as much as the next player. I remember when I first started playing a lot of the cash shop cosmetics felt neat and fun and situationally appealing fashion-wise. I'm finding more and more skins on the shop though to just be 'better' than what I might earn and use that's in-game. It's true you can just convert gold to gems and technically 'earn' these skins as well but that is also a double edged sword allowing people to just buy gold essentially making any skin you can buy on the TP a cash shop item. As an example this kind of takes away some of the prestige gen-one legendaries have. I don't have that feeling of envy seeing someone walking around with eternity like "Wow, they worked hard and got that really cool skin, I need to do that as well" knowing that they just could buy it.~~

 

~~All in all I don't think it's a big issue right now but I could see it becoming an issue as the game goes on it they don't make the conscious effort to keep the quality of cosmetics you can only **earn** through playing the game at a decent level above those you can outright buy. What are your thoughts?~~

 

~~Kind of as an afterthought question, why are there no cool earn-able skins for mounts? I feel like that is a missed opportunity. ~~

[Dante.1763]

You can just buy gen 2 legendaries as well. Sure you still have to make the thing, but outside of OBI shards everything else can be purchased with gold or gems.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> You can just buy gen 2 legendaries as well. Sure you still have to make the thing, but outside of OBI shards everything else can be purchased with gold or gems.

 

That's a good point, you can buy a lot of the difficulty away from them.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > You can just buy gen 2 legendaries as well. Sure you still have to make the thing, but outside of OBI shards everything else can be purchased with gold or gems.

>

> That's a good point, you can buy a lot of the difficulty away from them.

 

Its sad, but its the most effective way for me to obtain them. I rarely have the opportunity to sit down and farm 500 mystic coins -_-

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

What are we winning when everyone has their own idea of what is most unique, most fashionable, most cool?

[LucianDK.8615]

OP, I think you dont know what pay-to-win is. Its buying an -advantage- over others. Cosmetics give zero advantage. The only benefit of legendaries is easier build swapping, but thats it.

 

And theres plenty of pretty looking items from raiding. But they do not give an advantage. You could craft the same level of gear with ease outside of raiding.

 

The flat gearcurve of Gw2 means that its -quite- easy to max out.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> What are we winning when everyone has their own idea of what is most unique, most fashionable, most cool?

 

What was suppose to be prestige. Also, what is considered fashionable and cool is surprisingly not all that unique across people. Things like color theory and shape design can be pretty well agreed upon in art. That's why there is good and bad art, good and bad fashion.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

So, if I don't choose what everyone else does, I don't win Guild Wars 2? Bummer!

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> OP, I think you dont know what pay-to-win is. Its buying an -advantage- over others. Cosmetics give zero advantage. The only benefit of legendaries is easier build swapping, but thats it.

>

> And theres plenty of pretty looking items from raiding. But they do not give an advantage. You could craft the same level of gear with ease outside of raiding.

>

> The flat gearcurve of Gw2 means that its -quite- easy to max out.

 

I know very well the definition of pay-to-win, I defined it first thing in my post. Cosmetics don't give you and advantage nor did I ever suggest they did. I don't think you quiet understood the point I was making in my post.

[Raknar.4735]

Obtaining BiS stats is so easy without money that I'd not call GW2 P2W.

 

There are some small boosters like the Snowflake Gobbler with increased reward track gain that i'd call borderline.

 

As for the skins: I don't really care if they got it from the gemstore or from some hard content. Prestige is something I really couldn't care less about.

The only thing that matters to me is the overall look of their character. If they just stack infusions because they are pricey, instead of complementing their look, they are just an eyesore to me. A well put together composition of items is something I'll always congratulate, no matter where the items are from. (However Outfits I consider lazy.)

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> Obtaining BiS stats is so easy without money that I'd not call GW2 P2W.

>

> There are some small boosters like the Snowflake Gobbler with increased reward track gain that i'd call borderline.

>

> As for the skins: I don't really care if they got it from the gemstore or from some hard content. Prestige is something I really couldn't care less about.

> The only thing that matters to me is the overall look of their character. If they just stack infusions because they are pricey, instead of complementing their look, they are just an eyesore to me. A well put together composition of items is something I'll always congratulate, no matter where the items are from. (However Outfits I consider lazy.)

 

This is a good point and this kind of thing doesn't matter to everyone, myself included. I'm not afraid to say I'm a bit of a wallet warrior myself some times. It **is** stated that cosmetics are a core element of end game though and it does matter to a good chunk of the player base, that's why I bring up the topic.

 

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

I have bought bought mounts, outfits, backpacks, gliders and weapons from the gemstore and hereby unanimously declare myself the winner of this game. Now that I have won there is no more reason for you people to play. All I ask now is for the last player to turn the lights off before they log out.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> I have bought bought mounts, outfits, backpacks, gliders and weapons from the gemstore and hereby unanimously declare myself the winner of this game. Now that I have won there is no more reason for you people to play. All I ask now is for the last player to turn the lights off before they log out.

 

Good going. Now you got no one to show it off to, you done played yourself.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > I have bought bought mounts, outfits, backpacks, gliders and weapons from the gemstore and hereby unanimously declare myself the winner of this game. Now that I have won there is no more reason for you people to play. All I ask now is for the last player to turn the lights off before they log out.

>

> Good going. Now you got no one to show it off to, you done played yourself.

 

I shall stand in Lions Arch and glow in the dark, magnificently.

 

[Silmar Alech.4305]

GW2 has the same monetization mechanics as pay2win games. It's called convenience or cosmetic by GW2, but actually it drives the same motivation to buy stuff as in pay2win games. The motivation in both is to make (in development) the game inconvenient or unpleasant to play, unless you buy stuff to make it more pleasant to play. In pay2win games you buy equipment to make your combat convenient and less time intensive, in GW2 you buy convenience stuff to make it as convenient to play as possible from an ergonomic point of view and spend less time with tedious tasks like constant inventory management or farming stuff (buyable harvesting tools with extra drops). And of course the cosmetics drive players to buy stuff, because the loot items were made less beautiful than the buyable skins, and you want your avatar look as beautiful as other players.

 

It's the same hidden cost monetization model to disguise the real costs of the game, so players spend more money than it is reasonable.

 

Was one of the causes I quit the game 2 years ago, where this aspect became more and more apparent and was more and more worked into the game, so I realized it was there from the start. If I realized this from the start, I would never have bought the game in the first place, because hidden costs are unfair, and I don't like being treated unfairly.

[kharmin.7683]

Sorry, I don't get it. OP has 4 stars, so has been around the forums for a while. These topics have already been covered by other threads. What's new about this one?

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> Sorry, I don't get it. OP has 4 stars, so has been around the forums for a while. These topics have already been covered by other threads. What's new about this one?

 

Nothing. If it's a problem you keep bringing it so it doesn't fall to the wayside. I'm also not one for necro-ing threads so I'd rather just type it up in my own words.

[kharmin.7683]

That's what I don't get. You don't want to necro older threads that have already covered these topics and then create a new one that doesn't add anything new to those discussions anyway.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> That's what I don't get. You don't want to necro older threads that have already covered these topics and then create a new one that doesn't add anything new to those discussions anyway.

 

Idk what to tell ya mate. I'm sitting at work with nothing to do and was thinking about this so I figured I would see if anyone wanted to discuss it. You're welcome to pay no mind and not comment if it bothers you that much. Every time I want to talk about something I don't go "Oh, better go digging through the bowels of the forums to make sure someone else hasn't already discussed this before. Far be it from me if I accidentally bring up a conversation had before". Some new may come of it yet, it's not like the discussion is closed. That's why you **discus** it with other people to figure out **new** ideas. Maybe someone who didn't see the older threads will chime in, who knows.

 

[Randulf.7614]

GW2 is not pay to win or "dancing close to it"

 

The problem is that players have skewed the definition over the years and have defined it by anything you can buy in a cash shop which of course is completely incorrect.

 

Buying cosmetics does not and has never, counted towards being pay to win

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> GW2 is not pay to win or "dancing close to it"

 

What's your reasoning? Do you only consider hard "you have to buy gear from the cash shop to progress" tactics as pay to win? What if they made legendary armor buyable on TP? Where is the line drawn?

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Build templates in my opinion crossed the line. 90% of players don't understand how big of an advantage this gives, but most players are really bad at the game and only have 1 build for pve, pvp, and wvw and its same one.

[ugrakarma.9416]

err its already danced many meta requires stats gear behind Pof or HoT, like WvW guardian minstrels(HoT). but i think inst still fully milk.. all they need if they want really it is drop a balance patch that make all metas orbiting around these stats.

 

its almost not "pay to win", but "pay to have optimal", but in this case u pay for what u want, if u are a meta fanatic, them pay for it..

[Ben K.6238]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > GW2 is not pay to win or "dancing close to it"

>

> What's your reasoning? Do you only consider hard "you have to buy gear from the cash shop to progress" tactics as pay to win? What if they made legendary armor buyable on TP? Where is the line drawn?

 

The line's drawn where the purchase makes you better in combat without actually being better at playing. Cosmetics just make you leave a fancier corpse.

[kharmin.7683]

Yeah, but the problem doesn't exist, so there is nothing new that anyone can say about it. There is no way GW2 can be "pay to win" because there is nothing to "win". The thread and your argument are moot as well as being repetitious.

 

Additionally, with regards to mount skins being earned in-game, that has been discussed as well. You admit to being at work with nothing to do. Seems that using the forums search feature would be right up your alley in your quest to understand the points in your own thread.