UNOwen.7132 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"unwoven.3265" 3 sec is a REALLY long time. > > > gs3 has 8s cd > > > full counter is 12s or less > > > you get a dode once every 10 without vigor. > > > in that 3s he gets 40%+ off gs3 cd > > > 25%+ cd off full counter > > > and 30% off evade. > > > > > > I have a screenshot of glass thief landing 3,1k pulm hit. out of combat, I had toughtness amulet and protection up. > > > Without prot and toughtness that would be propably about 5k+ damage hit. > > > And yes reckless dodge is overpowered. doesnt change the fact that pulminary impact is a good trait. > > > > 3 seconds is not a very long time as a Warrior against a Thief. The thief will need *much* longer to do serious damage to you. And yes, but the Warrior cant exactly use all 3 of those things at the same time, can he? > > > > See, I can see a Glass Thief hitting a 3.1k pulmonary impact on another glass class. With Toughness and Protection, Im gonna have to call kitten, so go ahead, post the screenshot (and importantly, make sure its not pre-nerf pulmonary impact). Not that it matters, because the meta build isnt glass, and its pulmonary impacts hit for 1-1.5k. You can try it out on the Mesmer bot in the PvP lobby. Its quite sad how pathetically little damage it does. Its less than the third hit of your autoattack chain. > > interrupting shield block during +1 legit can instagib warrior, > my bad on the screenshot, turns out it was bound ( similar icon ) Only if the Warrior is already near death and out of cooldowns. In which case waiting out Shield Block and then interrupting whatever also kills him. You just save a tiny bit of time. For the record, Pulmonary Impact has a very different icon to bound. Because it doesnt use the trait icon, but rather the icon of the effect, which is also on the follow-up skill of Fist flurry. It also does a ton less damage than bound does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"unwoven.3265" 3 sec is a REALLY long time. > > > > gs3 has 8s cd > > > > full counter is 12s or less > > > > you get a dode once every 10 without vigor. > > > > in that 3s he gets 40%+ off gs3 cd > > > > 25%+ cd off full counter > > > > and 30% off evade. > > > > > > > > I have a screenshot of glass thief landing 3,1k pulm hit. out of combat, I had toughtness amulet and protection up. > > > > Without prot and toughtness that would be propably about 5k+ damage hit. > > > > And yes reckless dodge is overpowered. doesnt change the fact that pulminary impact is a good trait. > > > > > > 3 seconds is not a very long time as a Warrior against a Thief. The thief will need *much* longer to do serious damage to you. And yes, but the Warrior cant exactly use all 3 of those things at the same time, can he? > > > > > > See, I can see a Glass Thief hitting a 3.1k pulmonary impact on another glass class. With Toughness and Protection, Im gonna have to call kitten, so go ahead, post the screenshot (and importantly, make sure its not pre-nerf pulmonary impact). Not that it matters, because the meta build isnt glass, and its pulmonary impacts hit for 1-1.5k. You can try it out on the Mesmer bot in the PvP lobby. Its quite sad how pathetically little damage it does. Its less than the third hit of your autoattack chain. > > > > interrupting shield block during +1 legit can instagib warrior, > > my bad on the screenshot, turns out it was bound ( similar icon ) > > Only if the Warrior is already near death and out of cooldowns. In which case waiting out Shield Block and then interrupting whatever also kills him. You just save a tiny bit of time. > > For the record, Pulmonary Impact has a very different icon to bound. Because it doesnt use the trait icon, but rather the icon of the effect, which is also on the follow-up skill of Fist flurry. It also does a ton less damage than bound does. went into the game and tested, consistent 1,8k+ damage on maruders. out of combat so no buffs, no might nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"unwoven.3265" 3 sec is a REALLY long time. > > > > > gs3 has 8s cd > > > > > full counter is 12s or less > > > > > you get a dode once every 10 without vigor. > > > > > in that 3s he gets 40%+ off gs3 cd > > > > > 25%+ cd off full counter > > > > > and 30% off evade. > > > > > > > > > > I have a screenshot of glass thief landing 3,1k pulm hit. out of combat, I had toughtness amulet and protection up. > > > > > Without prot and toughtness that would be propably about 5k+ damage hit. > > > > > And yes reckless dodge is overpowered. doesnt change the fact that pulminary impact is a good trait. > > > > > > > > 3 seconds is not a very long time as a Warrior against a Thief. The thief will need *much* longer to do serious damage to you. And yes, but the Warrior cant exactly use all 3 of those things at the same time, can he? > > > > > > > > See, I can see a Glass Thief hitting a 3.1k pulmonary impact on another glass class. With Toughness and Protection, Im gonna have to call kitten, so go ahead, post the screenshot (and importantly, make sure its not pre-nerf pulmonary impact). Not that it matters, because the meta build isnt glass, and its pulmonary impacts hit for 1-1.5k. You can try it out on the Mesmer bot in the PvP lobby. Its quite sad how pathetically little damage it does. Its less than the third hit of your autoattack chain. > > > > > > interrupting shield block during +1 legit can instagib warrior, > > > my bad on the screenshot, turns out it was bound ( similar icon ) > > > > Only if the Warrior is already near death and out of cooldowns. In which case waiting out Shield Block and then interrupting whatever also kills him. You just save a tiny bit of time. > > > > For the record, Pulmonary Impact has a very different icon to bound. Because it doesnt use the trait icon, but rather the icon of the effect, which is also on the follow-up skill of Fist flurry. It also does a ton less damage than bound does. > > went into the game and tested, consistent 1,8k+ damage on maruders. > out of combat so no buffs, no might nothing. With Acro, Trickery, DD? Because the highest I got was 1.5k, and the average was 1.25k, so I imagine you got a part of the build wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"unwoven.3265" 3 sec is a REALLY long time. > > > > > > gs3 has 8s cd > > > > > > full counter is 12s or less > > > > > > you get a dode once every 10 without vigor. > > > > > > in that 3s he gets 40%+ off gs3 cd > > > > > > 25%+ cd off full counter > > > > > > and 30% off evade. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a screenshot of glass thief landing 3,1k pulm hit. out of combat, I had toughtness amulet and protection up. > > > > > > Without prot and toughtness that would be propably about 5k+ damage hit. > > > > > > And yes reckless dodge is overpowered. doesnt change the fact that pulminary impact is a good trait. > > > > > > > > > > 3 seconds is not a very long time as a Warrior against a Thief. The thief will need *much* longer to do serious damage to you. And yes, but the Warrior cant exactly use all 3 of those things at the same time, can he? > > > > > > > > > > See, I can see a Glass Thief hitting a 3.1k pulmonary impact on another glass class. With Toughness and Protection, Im gonna have to call kitten, so go ahead, post the screenshot (and importantly, make sure its not pre-nerf pulmonary impact). Not that it matters, because the meta build isnt glass, and its pulmonary impacts hit for 1-1.5k. You can try it out on the Mesmer bot in the PvP lobby. Its quite sad how pathetically little damage it does. Its less than the third hit of your autoattack chain. > > > > > > > > interrupting shield block during +1 legit can instagib warrior, > > > > my bad on the screenshot, turns out it was bound ( similar icon ) > > > > > > Only if the Warrior is already near death and out of cooldowns. In which case waiting out Shield Block and then interrupting whatever also kills him. You just save a tiny bit of time. > > > > > > For the record, Pulmonary Impact has a very different icon to bound. Because it doesnt use the trait icon, but rather the icon of the effect, which is also on the follow-up skill of Fist flurry. It also does a ton less damage than bound does. > > > > went into the game and tested, consistent 1,8k+ damage on maruders. > > out of combat so no buffs, no might nothing. > > With Acro, Trickery, DD? Because the highest I got was 1.5k, and the average was 1.25k, so I imagine you got a part of the build wrong. acro,trickery,dd. https://imgur.com/gallery/maWavLV with proper combat stats its gonna be way more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"unwoven.3265" 3 sec is a REALLY long time. > > > > > > > gs3 has 8s cd > > > > > > > full counter is 12s or less > > > > > > > you get a dode once every 10 without vigor. > > > > > > > in that 3s he gets 40%+ off gs3 cd > > > > > > > 25%+ cd off full counter > > > > > > > and 30% off evade. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a screenshot of glass thief landing 3,1k pulm hit. out of combat, I had toughtness amulet and protection up. > > > > > > > Without prot and toughtness that would be propably about 5k+ damage hit. > > > > > > > And yes reckless dodge is overpowered. doesnt change the fact that pulminary impact is a good trait. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 seconds is not a very long time as a Warrior against a Thief. The thief will need *much* longer to do serious damage to you. And yes, but the Warrior cant exactly use all 3 of those things at the same time, can he? > > > > > > > > > > > > See, I can see a Glass Thief hitting a 3.1k pulmonary impact on another glass class. With Toughness and Protection, Im gonna have to call kitten, so go ahead, post the screenshot (and importantly, make sure its not pre-nerf pulmonary impact). Not that it matters, because the meta build isnt glass, and its pulmonary impacts hit for 1-1.5k. You can try it out on the Mesmer bot in the PvP lobby. Its quite sad how pathetically little damage it does. Its less than the third hit of your autoattack chain. > > > > > > > > > > interrupting shield block during +1 legit can instagib warrior, > > > > > my bad on the screenshot, turns out it was bound ( similar icon ) > > > > > > > > Only if the Warrior is already near death and out of cooldowns. In which case waiting out Shield Block and then interrupting whatever also kills him. You just save a tiny bit of time. > > > > > > > > For the record, Pulmonary Impact has a very different icon to bound. Because it doesnt use the trait icon, but rather the icon of the effect, which is also on the follow-up skill of Fist flurry. It also does a ton less damage than bound does. > > > > > > went into the game and tested, consistent 1,8k+ damage on maruders. > > > out of combat so no buffs, no might nothing. > > > > With Acro, Trickery, DD? Because the highest I got was 1.5k, and the average was 1.25k, so I imagine you got a part of the build wrong. > > acro,trickery,dd. > https://imgur.com/gallery/maWavLV > with proper combat stats its gonna be way more. Amulet/Rune? Because this is most peculiar. I mean Lead Attack obviously buffs the damage (which is why I used just Swipe), but 10% extra should only get you up to 1700. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > You compare necromancer doom to thief's entire class mechanic, have you forgotten that necros have an entire life bar and 4 other skills while in shroud? Don't manipulate your comparison to ignore the original point. Thieves get a good combo enabler as their singular class mechanic. Core shroud's doom is an instant cast fear that if it isnt counterplayed can result in a player being 100-0 killed which is only a small part of their classes mechanic. > > @"Curennos.9307" > I agree with a lot of your suggestions except for the deadeye one. Deadeye needs to do big damage to be even usable (or even fun). Deadeye isnt unfun because it does damage, its unfun because it comes from stealth and has no animation. Deaths judgment is fine because it has an animation that reveals them, but when the animation of it is preceeded by a no animation (from stealth) knockdown its a bit much. I've nothing against the Binding Shadow changes. What part in particular do you disagree with? Edit: Shadow Meld really shouldn't cleanse revealed, either. This is def something that contributes to easily letting the thief get away after attempting a 1-shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"unwoven.3265" 3 sec is a REALLY long time. > > > > > > > > gs3 has 8s cd > > > > > > > > full counter is 12s or less > > > > > > > > you get a dode once every 10 without vigor. > > > > > > > > in that 3s he gets 40%+ off gs3 cd > > > > > > > > 25%+ cd off full counter > > > > > > > > and 30% off evade. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a screenshot of glass thief landing 3,1k pulm hit. out of combat, I had toughtness amulet and protection up. > > > > > > > > Without prot and toughtness that would be propably about 5k+ damage hit. > > > > > > > > And yes reckless dodge is overpowered. doesnt change the fact that pulminary impact is a good trait. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 seconds is not a very long time as a Warrior against a Thief. The thief will need *much* longer to do serious damage to you. And yes, but the Warrior cant exactly use all 3 of those things at the same time, can he? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, I can see a Glass Thief hitting a 3.1k pulmonary impact on another glass class. With Toughness and Protection, Im gonna have to call kitten, so go ahead, post the screenshot (and importantly, make sure its not pre-nerf pulmonary impact). Not that it matters, because the meta build isnt glass, and its pulmonary impacts hit for 1-1.5k. You can try it out on the Mesmer bot in the PvP lobby. Its quite sad how pathetically little damage it does. Its less than the third hit of your autoattack chain. > > > > > > > > > > > > interrupting shield block during +1 legit can instagib warrior, > > > > > > my bad on the screenshot, turns out it was bound ( similar icon ) > > > > > > > > > > Only if the Warrior is already near death and out of cooldowns. In which case waiting out Shield Block and then interrupting whatever also kills him. You just save a tiny bit of time. > > > > > > > > > > For the record, Pulmonary Impact has a very different icon to bound. Because it doesnt use the trait icon, but rather the icon of the effect, which is also on the follow-up skill of Fist flurry. It also does a ton less damage than bound does. > > > > > > > > went into the game and tested, consistent 1,8k+ damage on maruders. > > > > out of combat so no buffs, no might nothing. > > > > > > With Acro, Trickery, DD? Because the highest I got was 1.5k, and the average was 1.25k, so I imagine you got a part of the build wrong. > > > > acro,trickery,dd. > > https://imgur.com/gallery/maWavLV > > with proper combat stats its gonna be way more. > > Amulet/Rune? Because this is most peculiar. I mean Lead Attack obviously buffs the damage (which is why I used just Swipe), but 10% extra should only get you up to 1700. dont test stuff like that on bots, for all I know they can have 3k toughtness. test it on players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"unwoven.3265" 3 sec is a REALLY long time. > > > > > > > > > gs3 has 8s cd > > > > > > > > > full counter is 12s or less > > > > > > > > > you get a dode once every 10 without vigor. > > > > > > > > > in that 3s he gets 40%+ off gs3 cd > > > > > > > > > 25%+ cd off full counter > > > > > > > > > and 30% off evade. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a screenshot of glass thief landing 3,1k pulm hit. out of combat, I had toughtness amulet and protection up. > > > > > > > > > Without prot and toughtness that would be propably about 5k+ damage hit. > > > > > > > > > And yes reckless dodge is overpowered. doesnt change the fact that pulminary impact is a good trait. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 seconds is not a very long time as a Warrior against a Thief. The thief will need *much* longer to do serious damage to you. And yes, but the Warrior cant exactly use all 3 of those things at the same time, can he? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, I can see a Glass Thief hitting a 3.1k pulmonary impact on another glass class. With Toughness and Protection, Im gonna have to call kitten, so go ahead, post the screenshot (and importantly, make sure its not pre-nerf pulmonary impact). Not that it matters, because the meta build isnt glass, and its pulmonary impacts hit for 1-1.5k. You can try it out on the Mesmer bot in the PvP lobby. Its quite sad how pathetically little damage it does. Its less than the third hit of your autoattack chain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > interrupting shield block during +1 legit can instagib warrior, > > > > > > > my bad on the screenshot, turns out it was bound ( similar icon ) > > > > > > > > > > > > Only if the Warrior is already near death and out of cooldowns. In which case waiting out Shield Block and then interrupting whatever also kills him. You just save a tiny bit of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > For the record, Pulmonary Impact has a very different icon to bound. Because it doesnt use the trait icon, but rather the icon of the effect, which is also on the follow-up skill of Fist flurry. It also does a ton less damage than bound does. > > > > > > > > > > went into the game and tested, consistent 1,8k+ damage on maruders. > > > > > out of combat so no buffs, no might nothing. > > > > > > > > With Acro, Trickery, DD? Because the highest I got was 1.5k, and the average was 1.25k, so I imagine you got a part of the build wrong. > > > > > > acro,trickery,dd. > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/maWavLV > > > with proper combat stats its gonna be way more. > > > > Amulet/Rune? Because this is most peculiar. I mean Lead Attack obviously buffs the damage (which is why I used just Swipe), but 10% extra should only get you up to 1700. > > dont test stuff like that on bots, for all I know they can have 3k toughtness. test it on players. Nah we know what armour they have, its equivalent to the target golems of their weight class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > You compare necromancer doom to thief's entire class mechanic, have you forgotten that necros have an entire life bar and 4 other skills while in shroud? Don't manipulate your comparison to ignore the original point. Thieves get a good combo enabler as their singular class mechanic. Core shroud's doom is an instant cast fear that if it isnt counterplayed can result in a player being 100-0 killed which is only a small part of their classes mechanic. > > @"Curennos.9307" > I agree with a lot of your suggestions except for the deadeye one. Deadeye needs to do big damage to be even usable (or even fun). Deadeye isnt unfun because it does damage, its unfun because it comes from stealth and has no animation. Deaths judgment is fine because it has an animation that reveals them, but when the animation of it is preceeded by a no animation (from stealth) knockdown its a bit much. You don’t come off as impartial, like at all, and that’s not helping any of your arguments. I suggest putting more thought into the game, as opposed to niggling over petty and meaningless changes to professions. And actually type out ideas for the forum readers and devs, not use an hour long video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues. This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer. However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and damn amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design. Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them. On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poelala.2830 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > 3. **Ele**: I think the evade or the stunbreak on Twist of Fate needs to go, add a combofinisher for heals instead or whatever. Stunbreak dodges are gamebreaking we had this discussion with EM on Mesmer, it is the same for Weaver and Rev. Classes that currently have skills that are stunbreak and dodges: Ele, Ranger, Thief, Revenant, Mesmer (the majority) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > 3. **Ele**: I think the evade or the stunbreak on Twist of Fate needs to go, add a combofinisher for heals instead or whatever. Stunbreak dodges are gamebreaking we had this discussion with EM on Mesmer, it is the same for Weaver and Rev. > > Classes that currently have skills that are stunbreak and dodges: Ele, Ranger, Thief, Revenant, Mesmer (the majority) Yes and? The skills all got mentioned already, not sure what you want to say. Mesmer has only the one trait in Mirage line or did i forget a skill here? Also the amount of classes have access to a mechanic doesn't say anything about how healthy for the game it is. I already corrected myself a little bit saying that the mechanic is ofc less or even no issue depending on the class or build design and depending on how high the cooldown is, means when a squishy class/build has one of this skill with a high cooldown it might be tolerable. On most of the listed classes it is or became an issue with the powercreeped amount of dodges and other defense tools they have in addition to that or because of the too low cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallun.2071 Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Curennos.9307" said: > On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues. > > This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer. > > However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design. > > Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them. > > On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills. steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallun.2071 Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > You compare necromancer doom to thief's entire class mechanic, have you forgotten that necros have an entire life bar and 4 other skills while in shroud? Don't manipulate your comparison to ignore the original point. Thieves get a good combo enabler as their singular class mechanic. Core shroud's doom is an instant cast fear that if it isnt counterplayed can result in a player being 100-0 killed which is only a small part of their classes mechanic. > > > > @"Curennos.9307" > > I agree with a lot of your suggestions except for the deadeye one. Deadeye needs to do big damage to be even usable (or even fun). Deadeye isnt unfun because it does damage, its unfun because it comes from stealth and has no animation. Deaths judgment is fine because it has an animation that reveals them, but when the animation of it is preceeded by a no animation (from stealth) knockdown its a bit much. > > You don’t come off as impartial, like at all, and that’s not helping any of your arguments. > > I suggest putting more thought into the game, as opposed to niggling over petty and meaningless changes to professions. And actually type out ideas for the forum readers and devs, not use an hour long video. you havent suggested one change or made one counter argument to my post. Instead of saying TLDW and saw how i spent more time on the thief part... maybe consider putting forth literally anything. Most of my changes to thief were nerfs. How is that not impartial? I only spent more time because I know more about the class and can give a more informed opinion, and rather than try to overheal a class I barely play I address core issues that I know are a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > 3. **Ele**: I think the evade or the stunbreak on Twist of Fate needs to go, add a combofinisher for heals instead or whatever. Stunbreak dodges are gamebreaking we had this discussion with EM on Mesmer, it is the same for Weaver and Rev. > > Classes that currently have skills that are stunbreak and dodges: Ele, Ranger, Thief, Revenant, Mesmer (the majority) Illusory Ambush is not a stunbreak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > Buff Swipe to 900 Range > > > > Yeah, no. If anything should be happening to Swipe it should be it loses Unblockable so taking daredevil is an actual trade off, rather than this wishy washy "We know thieves will get TOO mad if it loses range so let's give them Unblockable on a skill that is already one of the most impactful and least counterplayable things in the game." > > > > > > You realize that core thieves have 1200 range steal right? I'm aware. > Is the issue that swipe has unblockable or that it can have range? It's the unblockable and until that's gone it does not need any unwarranted buffs to make it more oppressive. This is like adding 300 range to Mantra of Pain. It's fuel on something that's already too strong/unhealthy that we just don't need right now. > Also the trade off to daredevil is already exhaustion, if you want to make that argument. The only thing you have an issue with is that steal gives plasma, lets be honest youre a biased mesmer main. I'd be fine with a plasma nerf too but tbh its sort of irrelevant now that thieves dont even take deadly arts anymore. My issue is Swipe combined with Slight of Hand allowing Daredevil to consistently interrupt blocking stances, not Consume Plasma. If you plus against a Spellbreaker your can instantly cancel his Shield Stance the moment he enters it, throttling their entire defensive rotation. You can instantly interrupt a Ranger's Counterattack and even preemptively stop the Counterattack Kick from flipping over and throttle their entire defensive rotation. You can interrupt a Mesmer's Illusory Counter and prevent them from even launching the torment counter attack and throttle their entire defensive rotation. You can interrupt the Chromomancer shield 4 and stop both the phantasm from spawning and them from getting the flip over block throttling their capacity to be defensive and offensive at the same time. Previously this sort of action required Basilisk Venom, which itself had a cast time and even if you didn't see the cast you can see it on their status bar letting you know that the next attacks they throw you cannot block and they have to be evaded or zoned out in some way. So Unblockable Swipe is also just burying the potential return of that utility further, too. There are very few things in the game that can unblockably interrupt a block stance, and aside from Swipe all of them have big tells and a lot of genuine capacity to counter play. Wail of Doom on Necromancer has a 0.5 second cast time in addition to having a very specific cone that you can avoid staying in to consistently avoid the attack. Soul Mark traited Reaper's Mark has a clear 0.75 second cast time and Arenanet have made sure it's windup looks completely different from every other necromancer staff skill for clarity. Heavy Light traited Deflecting Shot is a projectile that is very slow and can be consistently circle strafed. Spear of Justice has both a wind up animation you can dodge that looks nothing like anything else on the Dragon Hunter's kit, and if it lands you are aware that you can't block during the duration without risk of of being pulled. And interrupted and if you are caught in it you can break the chain by moving past 1200 units and _then_ enter your block stance. Full Counter has both the defensive stance, and counter attack animation, and it has a limited 300 range. And then there's the various Lines of Warding type of skills which all have clear tells on the ground. All of which have far more capacity to counter play and avoid, whether its clear animations, and proper positioning and zoning than Swipe which is instant, has no animation, and no wind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > 3. **Ele**: I think the evade or the stunbreak on Twist of Fate needs to go, add a combofinisher for heals instead or whatever. Stunbreak dodges are gamebreaking we had this discussion with EM on Mesmer, it is the same for Weaver and Rev. > > > > Classes that currently have skills that are stunbreak and dodges: Ele, Ranger, Thief, Revenant, Mesmer (the majority) > > Illusory Ambush is not a stunbreak. I guess he means https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Through_Glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > 3. **Ele**: I think the evade or the stunbreak on Twist of Fate needs to go, add a combofinisher for heals instead or whatever. Stunbreak dodges are gamebreaking we had this discussion with EM on Mesmer, it is the same for Weaver and Rev. > > > > > > Classes that currently have skills that are stunbreak and dodges: Ele, Ranger, Thief, Revenant, Mesmer (the majority) > > > > Illusory Ambush is not a stunbreak. > > I guess he means https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Through_Glass Oh yeah that's a thing. I completely forgot about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > 3. **Ele**: I think the evade or the stunbreak on Twist of Fate needs to go, add a combofinisher for heals instead or whatever. Stunbreak dodges are gamebreaking we had this discussion with EM on Mesmer, it is the same for Weaver and Rev. > > > > > > > > Classes that currently have skills that are stunbreak and dodges: Ele, Ranger, Thief, Revenant, Mesmer (the majority) > > > > > > Illusory Ambush is not a stunbreak. > > > > I guess he means https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Through_Glass > > Oh yeah that's a thing. I completely forgot about it. When even Mesmer mains forget about that skill i don't feel too uneducated xD Anyway i think on Mirage it is somehow okish that they can dodge while stunned for already mentioned reasons but giving a stunbreak on normal dodges in addition to blink on a spec that even needs to have more dodges (because it is meant to do dmg with it as a spec mechanic) makes Mirage able to ignore cc completely way too often. When you then add to that, that Mirage also can cast during dodge and for that can not only completely ignore the cc but then also counterburst into the follow up while dodging then it is just too much. Same for Weaver, a forgiving facetank spec with low effort, easy dmg application that also has nearly perma stabi anyway. For Thief it depends on build, just like for Ranger i would say. On Rev the whole amount of dodges and stunbreaks make it a problem and before i delete another dodge or stunbreak from Rev i would prefer to go for the stunbreak dodge skill first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues. > > > > This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer. > > > > However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design. > > > > Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them. > > > > On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills. > > steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are. I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds. I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad. Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital. Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues. > > > > > > This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer. > > > > > > However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design. > > > > > > Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them. > > > > > > On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills. > > > > steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are. > > I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds. > > I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad. > > Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital. > > Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong > > Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > > On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues. > > > > > > > > This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer. > > > > > > > > However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design. > > > > > > > > Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them. > > > > > > > > On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills. > > > > > > steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are. > > > > I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds. > > > > I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad. > > > > Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital. > > > > Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong > > > > > > Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery. trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters. most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up. this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need. Making https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Preparedness wouldnt change anything I dont think. Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > > On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues. > > > > > > > > This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer. > > > > > > > > However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design. > > > > > > > > Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them. > > > > > > > > On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills. > > > > > > steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are. > > > > I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds. > > > > I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad. > > > > Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital. > > > > Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong > > > > > > Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery. > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > > > On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues. > > > > > > > > > > This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer. > > > > > > > > > > However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design. > > > > > > > > > > Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them. > > > > > > > > > > On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills. > > > > > > > > steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are. > > > > > > I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds. > > > > > > I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad. > > > > > > Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital. > > > > > > Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong > > > > > > > > > > Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery. > > trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters. > most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up. > this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need. > Making https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Preparedness wouldnt change anything I dont think. > Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it. First off - yes, tho I would go further and make Klepto baseline + add a 1/4 sec daze to steal baseline as well, in addition to preparedness. Change klepto to only give ini if you actually land steal. Next, I'd replace the 1st auto acquire trait slot with one that makes steal strip stability (toss in 5 stacks of vuln or something if needed), which would free people from being forced into bountiful theft (bountiful theft should probs have its vigor slightly reduced tho, or go from 3->2 stolen boons). And then some fill-in trait. Personally, I'd toss in a very small amount of prot on steal or something, but that's a cop out and we all know it. Lastly, make Quick Pockets remove the weapon swap cooldown, increase Slight of Hand's daze to 1.5 sec if need be, and call it a day. I think this would be a pretty big, but not massive, buff to non-trickery builds...but sort of a sideways buff. It'd also free people who do take trickery from behind locked into certain traits (Bountiful Theft and Slight of Hand). Slight of Hand would also have some competition (finally, lol). Anywho. Leon - I think you're slightly overestimating the value of Lead Attacks (tho I do think the CDR can also be made baseline, but that's just me. I despise how much CDR the traitline gives to steal - the whole thing seems to imply that the devs KNOW steal's base CD is/was too high, but just left it like that for everyone else because reasons - seriously, baseline 30 sec? c'mon). Lead Attacks gives thieves a good damage bonus...but the 'only in combat' was a pretty huge nerf. Previously, they'd roll into a fight with full stacks and varying states of ini pools. Now, they roll into combat without it and same ini pool. By the time it's built up, they either have one attack left, or just AAs, and will probably retreat to regen, which means the stacks will start to fall off. It's a strong trait, but it's not just giving the thief baseline 15% damage. I wonder what anet's view on statistics addons is. It'd be interesting to track the actual benefit of lead attacks throughout a match. 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Swagger.1459 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > You compare necromancer doom to thief's entire class mechanic, have you forgotten that necros have an entire life bar and 4 other skills while in shroud? Don't manipulate your comparison to ignore the original point. Thieves get a good combo enabler as their singular class mechanic. Core shroud's doom is an instant cast fear that if it isnt counterplayed can result in a player being 100-0 killed which is only a small part of their classes mechanic. > > > > > > @"Curennos.9307" > > > I agree with a lot of your suggestions except for the deadeye one. Deadeye needs to do big damage to be even usable (or even fun). Deadeye isnt unfun because it does damage, its unfun because it comes from stealth and has no animation. Deaths judgment is fine because it has an animation that reveals them, but when the animation of it is preceeded by a no animation (from stealth) knockdown its a bit much. > > > > You don’t come off as impartial, like at all, and that’s not helping any of your arguments. > > > > I suggest putting more thought into the game, as opposed to niggling over petty and meaningless changes to professions. And actually type out ideas for the forum readers and devs, not use an hour long video. > > you havent suggested one change or made one counter argument to my post. Instead of saying TLDW and saw how i spent more time on the thief part... maybe consider putting forth literally anything. Most of my changes to thief were nerfs. How is that not impartial? I only spent more time because I know more about the class and can give a more informed opinion, and rather than try to overheal a class I barely play I address core issues that I know are a problem. Well, I’ve made a whole lot of threads on professions, balance, and combat mechanics, so I don’t feel the need to post stuff here. Unless you really want me to start posting all the links? You just complained about fear on Necro and the possibility getting blitzed quickly, but Thief doesn’t have access to hard CCs and heavy hitting skills? Necro has a profession mechanic gated by life force, but thief doesn’t have that crutch, right? Know how easy it is to wait out shroud and pick a Necro apart? Maybe roam solo on Necro and think about it more. Cal and Ben have been talking about major shakeups, and your suggestions are the same old types of changes that we’ve had for the past 7 years. You’re stuck in the past, not looking beyond that. Maybe read that link I posted from a player back in 2014, then consider what you are bringing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said: > > > > > On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues. > > > > > > > > > > This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer. > > > > > > > > > > However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design. > > > > > > > > > > Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them. > > > > > > > > > > On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills. > > > > > > > > steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are. > > > > > > I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds. > > > > > > I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad. > > > > > > Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital. > > > > > > Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong > > > > > > > > > > Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery. > > trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters. > most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up. > this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need. > Making https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Preparedness wouldnt change anything I dont think. > Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it. Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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