Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Eugchriss.2046" said: > Imagine revs being able to spamm Unrelenting Assault or wars spamming whirlwind attack... > "tHeY hAvE a ShOrT wInDoW bEfOrE aNd AfTerCaSt. YoU nEeD tO sToP sPaMmInG aLl YoUr Cd'S aNd TiMe YoUr SkIlLs" lmao Ok, well never been able to interrupt whirlwind attack at the start nor at the end. Unrelting assault though does have a window at both the start and end, most of the time people will set up a cc at the end of the skill rather than interrupting the start as they are often at range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said: > > > > Imagine revs being able to spamm Unrelenting Assault or wars spamming whirlwind attack... > > > > "tHeY hAvE a ShOrT wInDoW bEfOrE aNd AfTerCaSt. YoU nEeD tO sToP sPaMmInG aLl YoUr Cd'S aNd TiMe YoUr SkIlLs" lmao > > > > > > The fact that pistol whip doesn't move you to your target aside, I hit revs with headbutt/shield bash all the time right as they're coming out of unrelenting because the aftercast makes that move free/forces them to burn their darkness gaze/their energy on shiro evade if they don't want to get stunned. Don't see why that counterplay isn't enough for thief. > > > > Because thief shadowstep into PW has no tell for you to follow like unrelenting assault. It also has much better disengage/reengage potential if it goes poorly. PW is already a low risk, high reward skill that can be further mitigated by their plethora of teleports and evade. > > Sure it does, if we're not counting stealth. If a thief is winding up pistol whip from 1200 range (or 600, whichever you prefer), is facing you, and clearly won't hit you from where you're standing, you can treat that like churning earth/lightning flash and dodge preemptively. > > But at this point, whatever. Just make sure the skill requirement that you hold thief to also applies to every other class~ That's if the theif is standing where you can see them, a good thief will hug some kind of geometry as to hide the animations, but that's all just detail as this point. I already made a post about how overloaded skills need to be toned back in general. A high damage/stun/evade/heal/condi removal in a single skill seems a little overloaded to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it Larcenous and PW now? The mechanics of PW have not changed since release. PI has never been required in a PW build and in fact many (albeit not all) dropped PI when its damage scaled down. A Number of PW thieves (Myself included) preferred the EA over the PI for cleanse dependent on whether or not they had cleanses enough elsewhere. With the release of DE spec I dropped daredevil to take DE as I found it more effective as it my feeling you need quickness in the build so as to get the PW off before the enemy WALKS AWAY. The reason the skill was not used as much before is because people would use mechanics they can still use today, and that is walk away. Apparently there builds now that can no longer walk. (or block or dodge) The mechanics the people complaining about in regards to PW have always existed. They could always port in, get the chain off and port away. This even occurs in Thief Core. That other traits taken add evades is not material to PW. The thief is DESIGNED as an evasive build which is why it has such low health. Those other evades add to every other build and weaponset. Indeed a core build using CS in lieu of Daredevil or DE for IP offers significant advantages as well. As to s/d and PI, There no interrupts in that build. Most do not and have never taken PI in that build. They tended to take EA in the daredevil version. The separation of EA from PI was never an issue in s/d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > That's if the theif is standing where you can see them, a good thief will hug some kind of geometry as to hide the animations, but that's all just detail as this point. At what point do we separate class-carry from tactical play/smart play though. > I already made a post about how overloaded skills need to be toned back in general. A high damage/stun/evade/heal/condi removal in a single skill seems a little overloaded to me. In general is the key point. As long as that is honored, set whatever standard you want~ The one thing I won't do is keep struggling and getting pushed off point because classes either outheal my damage on zerker or can evade chain relentlessly or turn off my defensive options with a button, while claiming thief is overpowered because it can run away. We hit that arguing point and found out it doesn't work in 2015. I don't mind playing as skillfully as I need to to win my matchups, as long as freebies aren't continuously handed to classes that don't need them. If that continues to be the case (as in, classes having ridiculously long evade/invuln chains/outhealing while still doing enough damage to down me with a couple skills either through condi or power) expect cheese in various flavors, whether that be backstab builds or rifle or what have you. Not addressing you specifically, just how I feel about this meta in general. Basically feels like a bunch of people gorging themselves at a banquet that get upset when a hungry person gets fed. (except for necro. theyve been bullied a lot.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > Larcenous and PW now? > > The mechanics of PW have not changed since release. PI has never been required in a PW build and in fact many (albeit not all) dropped PI when its damage scaled down. A Number of PW thieves (Myself included) preferred the EA over the PI for cleanse dependent on whether or not they had cleanses enough elsewhere. With the release of DE spec I dropped daredevil to take DE as I found it more effective as it my feeling you need quickness in the build so as to get the PW off before the enemy WALKS AWAY. The reason the skill was not used as much before is because people would use mechanics they can still use today, and that is walk away. > > The mechanics the people complaining about in regards to PW have always existed. They could always port in, get the chain off and port away. This even occurs in Thief Core. That other traits taken add evades is not material to PW. The thief is DESIGNED as an evasive build which is why it has such low health. Those other evades add to every other build and weaponset. > > As to s/d and PI, There no interrupts in that build. Most do not and have never taken PI in that build. They tended to take EA in the daredevil version. The separation of EA from PI was never an issue in s/d. I don’t really get your point. There’s definitely some stun present as swipe with acro on a perma dodge build is probably more spammable than it ever was in the past. Even then if u don’t want pulmonary u can take havoc specialist and escapist fortitude which is still way better than it ever was. The fact of the matter remain that this change is just a huge improvement to any high dodge acro build which is one reason that any sword daredevil build is totally playable and busted rn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > That's if the theif is standing where you can see them, a good thief will hug some kind of geometry as to hide the animations, but that's all just detail as this point. > > At what point do we separate class-carry from tactical play/smart play though. It's at the point that the basic tools provided by a profession allow certain skills to over preform. Like fire weavers many evades paired with pulsing of high burn stacks. The evades alone are not an issue, it's the fact they can continue to pressure you while doing it. > > > I already made a post about how overloaded skills need to be toned back in general. A high damage/stun/evade/heal/condi removal in a single skill seems a little overloaded to me. > > In general is the key point. As long as that is honored, set whatever standard you want~ > The one thing I won't do is keep struggling and getting pushed off point because classes either outheal my damage on zerker or can evade chain relentlessly or turn off my defensive options with a button, while claiming thief is overpowered because it can run away. > We hit that arguing point and found out it doesn't work in 2015. > > I don't mind playing as skillfully as I need to to win my matchups, as long as freebies aren't continuously handed to classes that don't need them. If that continues to be the case (as in, classes having ridiculously long evade/invuln chains/outhealing while still doing enough damage to down me with a couple skills either through condi or power, expect cheese in various flavors, whether that be backstab builds or rifle or what have you. > All I really want is more skillful fights with a longer TTK where it's not just a race to the top of cheese mountain with the new cheesy build flavor of the month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted". Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. If you get high mileage out of that skill its because you earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > It's at the point that the basic tools provided by a profession allow certain skills to over preform. Like fire weavers many evades paired with pulsing of high burn stacks. **The evades alone are not an issue, it's the fact they can continue to pressure you while doing it.** There are several builds, several dozen skills and one whole spec for mesmer that are built around pressuring you while also evading/being invulnerable. What is the cutoff point for that crossing over from balanced into overperforming? I'm totally fine if there is a definable metric for that that isn't just a thinly veiled euphemism for "Eh, thief seems to be working, must be broken". Again, not pointing the finger at you in any respect here. > All I really want is more skillful fights with a longer TTK where it's not just a race to the top of cheese mountain with the new cheesy build flavor of the month. More skillful? Sure. Longer TTK? Careful what you wish for. Bunker meta is worse than glass meta. As for cheese mountain, if everything thief does that's not dying is considered cheese/underhanded in its current state and nobody else wants their build to be rebalanced for meeting the same qualification one of the squishiest characters in the game meets, I call dibs on the provolone. Also obviously OP is exaggerating, forgot to mention. Only time it gets hard to counterplay is when thief has quickness, which is rare unless fighting a mes, which in most respects can just ignore the damage whenever they want anyway. Other than that windup and stun duration being .75 seconds means you can act before they hit you with another one. OP also plays herald which can disable stealth 600r around itself. Pistol whip is the answer to that. If you wanna give up your revealed nuke I'd be glad to go back to Dagger/Pistol, otherwise use your stunbreak in that rare situation that a thief with quickness decides to press 3 on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted". > Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. > With the type of sustain it gives with acro yeah it’s almost as tanky as actual duelist specs with absolutely zero trades off of still being a roamer/ burster. I would say that is getting 100% close to being op. You can disagree and claim I’m needlessly promoting myself while your posting about how u can hit these guys at the end of the animation, but the fact remain you can try and counter play it as u suggested but there’s still absolutely zero trade offs for taking something that can potentially make a Roamer and a burst class about as tanky as an actual duelist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > > > Larcenous and PW now? > > > > The mechanics of PW have not changed since release. PI has never been required in a PW build and in fact many (albeit not all) dropped PI when its damage scaled down. A Number of PW thieves (Myself included) preferred the EA over the PI for cleanse dependent on whether or not they had cleanses enough elsewhere. With the release of DE spec I dropped daredevil to take DE as I found it more effective as it my feeling you need quickness in the build so as to get the PW off before the enemy WALKS AWAY. The reason the skill was not used as much before is because people would use mechanics they can still use today, and that is walk away. > > > > The mechanics the people complaining about in regards to PW have always existed. They could always port in, get the chain off and port away. This even occurs in Thief Core. That other traits taken add evades is not material to PW. The thief is DESIGNED as an evasive build which is why it has such low health. Those other evades add to every other build and weaponset. > > > > As to s/d and PI, There no interrupts in that build. Most do not and have never taken PI in that build. They tended to take EA in the daredevil version. The separation of EA from PI was never an issue in s/d. > > I don’t really get your point. There’s definitely some stun present as swipe with acro on a perma dodge build is probably more spammable than it ever was in the past. Even then if u don’t want pulmonary u can take havoc specialist and escapist fortitude which is still way better than it ever was. > The fact of the matter remain that this change is just a huge improvement to any high dodge acro build which is one reason that any sword daredevil build is totally playable and busted rn Where is your stun in s/d? It comes only from swipe and is not worth it for a single fire of PI every 20 seconds. That does not amount to much added damage. S/d is better off taking havoc specialist as it adds more damage over that 20 seconds. The single change that made Daredevil better is weakening strikes and not the separation of EA from the PI trait. Due to those dodges you can apply weakness more readily and when used in conjunction with the DA line and serpents touch you can keep weakness on an enemy allowing you to stick in a fight. This is not specific to s/d or s/p. It applies to any weapon sets that have poison/dodge sources. Once again the mechanics people complain about on s/x have always been there. That is what everyone complains about today, that ability to port in do damage and port away. If I took CS/TR/Acro in my s/p build it would do more damage on a PW plus replenish a whole lot of health. People would still be complaining about PW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > I don’t really get your point. There’s definitely some stun present as swipe with acro on a perma dodge build is probably more spammable than it ever was in the past. Even then if u don’t want pulmonary u can take havoc specialist and escapist fortitude which is still way better than it ever was. Playing Valk doesn't make thief a burst class. It makes you an off bruiser. You will be relatively bruiserlike unless paired against an actual bruiser/burst class/bunker. How that is broken I can't see. Sure, you can get damage with backstabs and larcenous, but it's all front loaded if you're using crit runes/sigils. if you whiff those or your opponent lives your sustained damage is your weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > > > > > Larcenous and PW now? > > > > > > The mechanics of PW have not changed since release. PI has never been required in a PW build and in fact many (albeit not all) dropped PI when its damage scaled down. A Number of PW thieves (Myself included) preferred the EA over the PI for cleanse dependent on whether or not they had cleanses enough elsewhere. With the release of DE spec I dropped daredevil to take DE as I found it more effective as it my feeling you need quickness in the build so as to get the PW off before the enemy WALKS AWAY. The reason the skill was not used as much before is because people would use mechanics they can still use today, and that is walk away. > > > > > > The mechanics the people complaining about in regards to PW have always existed. They could always port in, get the chain off and port away. This even occurs in Thief Core. That other traits taken add evades is not material to PW. The thief is DESIGNED as an evasive build which is why it has such low health. Those other evades add to every other build and weaponset. > > > > > > As to s/d and PI, There no interrupts in that build. Most do not and have never taken PI in that build. They tended to take EA in the daredevil version. The separation of EA from PI was never an issue in s/d. > > > > I don’t really get your point. There’s definitely some stun present as swipe with acro on a perma dodge build is probably more spammable than it ever was in the past. Even then if u don’t want pulmonary u can take havoc specialist and escapist fortitude which is still way better than it ever was. > > The fact of the matter remain that this change is just a huge improvement to any high dodge acro build which is one reason that any sword daredevil build is totally playable and busted rn > > Where is your stun in s/d? It comes only from swipe and is not worth it for a single fire of PI every 20 seconds. That does not amount to much added damage. S/d is better off taking havoc specialist as it adds more damage over that 20 seconds. > > The single change that made Daredevil better is weakening strikes and not the separation of EA from the PI trait. Due to those dodges you can apply weakness more readily and when used in conjunction with the DA line and serpents touch you can keep weakness on an enemy allowing you to stick in a fight. This is not specific to s/d or s/p. It applies to any weapon sets that have poison/dodge sources. > > Once again the mechanics people complain about on s/x have always been there. That is what everyone complains about today, that ability to port in do damage and port away. If I took CS/TR/Acro in my s/p build it would do more damage on a PW plus replenish a whole lot of health. People would still be complaining about PW. Actually with acro assuming you get swindlers equilibrium up every 10 secs and it reduces swipe to 10 secs that means u should have swipe off cd every 10 secs. Plus it’s perfectly reasonable to have other stubs from bandits defense or stealth sword 1. Saying there is no source of stun is kind of very inaccurate... also one reason players can not take deadly arts anymore is the improved weakness in daredevil. Tbf I did say u can also take havoc specialist but pulm is still totally playable and I don’t really get your point, most people here are talking about people with acro and I said acro and your saying it’s all about deadly arts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > I don’t really get your point. There’s definitely some stun present as swipe with acro on a perma dodge build is probably more spammable than it ever was in the past. Even then if u don’t want pulmonary u can take havoc specialist and escapist fortitude which is still way better than it ever was. > > Playing Valk doesn't make thief a burst class. It makes you an off bruiser. You will be relatively bruiserlike unless paired against an actual bruiser. How that is broken I can't see. > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > With the type of sustain it gives with acro yeah it’s almost as tanky as actual duelist specs with absolutely zero trades off of still being a roamer/ burster. I would say that is getting 100% close to being op. You can disagree and claim I’m needlessly promoting myself while your posting about how u can hit these guys at the end of the animation, but the fact remain you can try and counter play it as u suggested but there’s still absolutely zero trade offs for taking something that can potentially make a Roamer and a burst class about as tanky as an actual duelist. > > No, no; self-flagellation is self __harm__. > > Also the trade off is your damage if you run valk and acro. even if you run interrupts, base damage on that is 530ish. > > Look The point has nothing to do with valk. But if u must know the reason u can run valk is because the way s/d bound is played. U almost also dodge than attack maybe one or two times and repeat, so u take daredevil rune and with near constant fury your crit chance is 33% + 100% crit chance on most of your attacks. What I’ve seen playing this meme spec or say something similar, maybe a tanky amulet. Is that you are about as tacky as a duelist as well as good enough damage as with valk ur larcenous can sometimes hit 6-7k unblockable damage. The build aside. I’ve tried basically any sword acro daredevil build in this meta and even the more offmeta ones are still extremely effective. And that’s the point I’m making. U think the build is bad, who cares it still works as an example that these changes are strong on pretty much any version of the build being described in the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > > > Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted". > > Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. > > > With the type of sustain it gives with acro yeah it’s almost as tanky as actual duelist specs with absolutely zero trades off of still being a roamer/ burster. I would say that is getting 100% close to being op. You can disagree and claim I’m needlessly promoting myself while your posting about how u can hit these guys at the end of the animation, but the fact remain you can try and counter play it as u suggested but there’s still absolutely zero trade offs for taking something that can potentially make a Roamer and a burst class about as tanky as an actual duelist. This is absolute hyperbole. Go play thief with acro and ef and see how the sustain matches up to a tank spec, hint it wont come close. U guys talk about ef like it cleanses on dodge not evade and its heal is almost trivial compared to the dps being thrown around, any lower and might as well not be there. U disengage while having condis u still have to cleanse with either a utility if slotted or a trick skill if trick trait slotted,ef wont cleanse anything unless ur actively evading a actual attack. Thieves are doned all the time while engaging and using evades mid fight,I kill em all the time and yeah alot of times they disengage and come back later with CD-s which makes sense for that type of class but they definitely cant sit there and trade blows with my warrior by simply dodging around in melee range while were fighting like u guys make it seem like lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > > > > > Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted". > > > Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. > > > > > With the type of sustain it gives with acro yeah it’s almost as tanky as actual duelist specs with absolutely zero trades off of still being a roamer/ burster. I would say that is getting 100% close to being op. You can disagree and claim I’m needlessly promoting myself while your posting about how u can hit these guys at the end of the animation, but the fact remain you can try and counter play it as u suggested but there’s still absolutely zero trade offs for taking something that can potentially make a Roamer and a burst class about as tanky as an actual duelist. > > This is absolute hyperbole. Go play thief with acro and ef and see how the sustain matches up to a tank spec, hint it wont come close. U guys talk about ef like it cleanses on dodge not evade and its heal is almost trivial compared to the dps being thrown around, any lower and might as well not be there. U disengage while having condis u still have to cleanse with either a utility if slotted or a trick skill if trick trait slotted,ef wont cleanse anything unless ur actively evading a actual attack. Thieves are doned all the time while engaging and using evades mid fight,I kill em all the time and yeah alot of times they disengage and come back later with CD-s which makes sense for that type of class but they definitely cant sit there and trade blows with my warrior by simply dodging around in melee range while were fighting like u guys make it seem like lol It’s not a hyperbole they are arguing about a version of the spec, which takes a tanker amulet to actually be as tanks as a side noder. The trait itself can be that good and that’s the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > It's at the point that the basic tools provided by a profession allow certain skills to over preform. Like fire weavers many evades paired with pulsing of high burn stacks. **The evades alone are not an issue, it's the fact they can continue to pressure you while doing it.** > > There are several builds, several dozen skills and one whole spec for mesmer that are built around pressuring you while also evading/being invulnerable. What is the cutoff point for that crossing over from balanced into overperforming? I'm totally fine if there is a definable metric for that that isn't just a thinly veiled euphemism for "Eh, thief seems to be working, must be broken". > I don't think there is a definable metric and tbh most all expect maybe a handful of professions are overpreforming. You just have to look at what is being the most effective and how much more effective it's being than everything else and suss out what the problem might be if any. It's not easy and clean cut and I defiantly don't have all the answers ( or I would be working for anet rn). All I can give is what has been problematic in my experience of the game. > Again, not pointing the finger at you in any respect here. > > > All I really want is more skillful fights with a longer TTK where it's not just a race to the top of cheese mountain with the new cheesy build flavor of the month. > > More skillful? Sure. Longer TTK? Careful what you wish for. Bunker meta is worse than glass meta. As for cheese mountain, if everything thief does that's not dying is considered cheese/underhanded in its current state and nobody else wants their build to be rebalanced for meeting the same qualification one of the squishiest characters in the game meets, I call dibs on the provolone. The "cheese mountain" comment was in respect to all professions, not just thief. I guess I should define I see "cheese" as a meta build built around the abuse of some overtuned mechanic. > > Also obviously OP is exaggerating, forgot to mention. Only time it gets hard to counterplay is when thief has quickness, which is rare unless fighting a mes, which in most respects can just ignore the damage whenever they want anyway. Other than that windup and stun duration being .75 seconds means you can act before they hit you with another one. > OP also plays herald which can disable stealth 600r around itself. Pistol whip is the answer to that. If you wanna give up your revealed nuke I'd be glad to go back to Dagger/Pistol, otherwise use your stunbreak in that rare situation that a thief with quickness decides to press 3 on you. I think my person issue with the rise of PW thief isn't that it's "omg so broken pls nerf" but that it's just not fun to play against kind of like condi mirage. It's not fun to get constantly stunned, dazed, interrupted, and blinded into next week. Those are game mechanics that literally prevent the other player from playing, and it's just not fun. Even if I beat a PW daredevil, I don't enjoy the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > > > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > > > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > > > > > > > Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted". > > > > Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. > > > > > > > With the type of sustain it gives with acro yeah it’s almost as tanky as actual duelist specs with absolutely zero trades off of still being a roamer/ burster. I would say that is getting 100% close to being op. You can disagree and claim I’m needlessly promoting myself while your posting about how u can hit these guys at the end of the animation, but the fact remain you can try and counter play it as u suggested but there’s still absolutely zero trade offs for taking something that can potentially make a Roamer and a burst class about as tanky as an actual duelist. > > > > This is absolute hyperbole. Go play thief with acro and ef and see how the sustain matches up to a tank spec, hint it wont come close. U guys talk about ef like it cleanses on dodge not evade and its heal is almost trivial compared to the dps being thrown around, any lower and might as well not be there. U disengage while having condis u still have to cleanse with either a utility if slotted or a trick skill if trick trait slotted,ef wont cleanse anything unless ur actively evading a actual attack. Thieves are doned all the time while engaging and using evades mid fight,I kill em all the time and yeah alot of times they disengage and come back later with CD-s which makes sense for that type of class but they definitely cant sit there and trade blows with my warrior by simply dodging around in melee range while were fighting like u guys make it seem like lol > It’s not a hyperbole they are arguing about a version of the spec, which takes a tanker amulet to actually be as tanks as a side noder. The trait itself can be that good and that’s the point > And meaning what? So if a thief takes a tanky amulet instead of a more power damage based one it shouldn't be more tanky than had it taken the damage amulet, or that a good not OP cleanse and heal on most builds can land to a more tanker build when built for,this is literally something all classes can and do. Like honestly these forums have gotten ridiculous as far as what is deemed op by people. I could see a cleanse on dodge being OP especially since thief has alot of dodge potential but opon succesfully evading a attack with a minimal heal attached cmon lol yeah it has strong synergy with pw due to evade in the skill but isnt the point of traits to synergies somewhat with skills, I mean brawlers recovery gets a cleanse every 5 sec, is that so much worse than having to actively evade an attack to get it, I'd almost rather have that in a lot of circumstances lol. I run a DA CS SA dp build that runs valkyrie rune and scholars and cuz hidden killer I still crit on back stabs and 2 sec after with reveal training boost and all with 20k hp and almost perma invis does that mean those traits are OP cuz they synergize?lol Nowadays if its effective its OP especially when concerning s few respective classes whether counter play is available or not and yet we use ridiculous counter arguments about our own classes that are ridiculous like using los as the main counter play as if that's not a completely unreliable counter play option lol. I really hope the team if reading all these posts can think for them selves and try any changes done before release aka cal lol. I am guilty of these things to I admit outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > > > > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > > > > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > > > > > > > > > Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted". > > > > > Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. > > > > > > > > > With the type of sustain it gives with acro yeah it’s almost as tanky as actual duelist specs with absolutely zero trades off of still being a roamer/ burster. I would say that is getting 100% close to being op. You can disagree and claim I’m needlessly promoting myself while your posting about how u can hit these guys at the end of the animation, but the fact remain you can try and counter play it as u suggested but there’s still absolutely zero trade offs for taking something that can potentially make a Roamer and a burst class about as tanky as an actual duelist. > > > > > > This is absolute hyperbole. Go play thief with acro and ef and see how the sustain matches up to a tank spec, hint it wont come close. U guys talk about ef like it cleanses on dodge not evade and its heal is almost trivial compared to the dps being thrown around, any lower and might as well not be there. U disengage while having condis u still have to cleanse with either a utility if slotted or a trick skill if trick trait slotted,ef wont cleanse anything unless ur actively evading a actual attack. Thieves are doned all the time while engaging and using evades mid fight,I kill em all the time and yeah alot of times they disengage and come back later with CD-s which makes sense for that type of class but they definitely cant sit there and trade blows with my warrior by simply dodging around in melee range while were fighting like u guys make it seem like lol > > It’s not a hyperbole they are arguing about a version of the spec, which takes a tanker amulet to actually be as tanks as a side noder. The trait itself can be that good and that’s the point > > > > And meaning what? So if a thief takes a tanky amulet instead of a more power damage based one it shouldn't be more tanky than had it taken the damage amulet, or that a mediocre cleanse and heal on most builds lands to a more tanker build when built for,this is literally something all classes can and do. Well yeah if 1 sustain trait out off the entire trait tree can make a burst spec, that can still hit 6k on larcenous strike, as tanky as specs trailed entirely as a duelist then yeah why not consider it a strong trait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > Even if I beat a PW daredevil, I don't enjoy the fight. We may not see through the same lens here but if there's one thing I can agree with it's this, and I am willing to have PW reworked if it no longer becomes mandatory to MU builds that are even less fun to fight. > The "cheese mountain" comment was in respect to all professions, not just thief. I guess I should define I see "cheese" as a meta build built around the abuse of some overtuned mechanic. I know, I was just saying I'm willing to play the cheese game if everyone else is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Condi thief got nerfed, and it can't duel anymore, but you also don't see them very much in games anymore. Staff thief got nerfed, don't really see them in games anymore. S/D simply got outpaced by game changes, and you may see them from time to time, but not really enough to be considered "META". D/P thieves have seen a revival in my perspective of thief player interest, but not necessarily taking a place in the "META". They can be useful to an extent, but easy to prepare for as the are initiative hogs, and blockable with the exception of swipe. S/P thieves can be terribly oppressive in 1 v 1's for many classes, more so when the player has some skill and the opponent has not. But, when they are against multiple foes, they tend to melt away. Thief can always retreat, always meaning if shadowstep is not on CD. It seems this S/P thief can roam and duel effectively, but they are not invincible, unblockable, and extremely difficult to kill when outnumbered. They simply excel at dueling when a skilled player runs it, and can still roam. Sounds almost like what a thief is supposed to be. "**Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which makes them very hard to hit.**" quoted from here https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/  I'm sorry if you don't agree, but it really is true to original design philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > Condi thief got nerfed, and it can't duel anymore, but you also don't see them very much in games anymore. > > Staff thief got nerfed, don't really see them in games anymore. > > S/D simply got outpaced by game changes, and you may see them from time to time, but not really enough to be considered "META". > > D/P thieves have seen a revival in my perspective of thief player interest, but not necessarily taking a place in the "META". They can be useful to an extent, but easy to prepare for as the are initiative hogs, and blockable with the exception of swipe. > > S/P thieves can be terribly oppressive in 1 v 1's for many classes, more so when the player has some skill and the opponent has not. But, when they are against multiple foes, they tend to melt away. > > Thief can always retreat, always meaning if shadowstep is not on CD. > > It seems this S/P thief can roam and duel effectively, but they are not invincible, unblockable, and extremely difficult to kill when outnumbered. > > They simply excel at dueling when a skilled player runs it, and can still roam. > > Sounds almost like what a thief is supposed to be. > > "**Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which makes them very hard to hit.**" > > quoted from here https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/ > >  > > I'm sorry if you don't agree, but it really is true to original design philosophy. > > > Actually I disagree condition thief is perfectly fine in 1v1. They lowered burst but new deadly ambition can be just as good at dueling sometimes better sometimes worse, usually against another thief with high dodges it’s worse but others can be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > > > > > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > > > > > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > > > > > > > > > > > Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted". > > > > > > Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. > > > > > > > > > > > With the type of sustain it gives with acro yeah it’s almost as tanky as actual duelist specs with absolutely zero trades off of still being a roamer/ burster. I would say that is getting 100% close to being op. You can disagree and claim I’m needlessly promoting myself while your posting about how u can hit these guys at the end of the animation, but the fact remain you can try and counter play it as u suggested but there’s still absolutely zero trade offs for taking something that can potentially make a Roamer and a burst class about as tanky as an actual duelist. > > > > > > > > This is absolute hyperbole. Go play thief with acro and ef and see how the sustain matches up to a tank spec, hint it wont come close. U guys talk about ef like it cleanses on dodge not evade and its heal is almost trivial compared to the dps being thrown around, any lower and might as well not be there. U disengage while having condis u still have to cleanse with either a utility if slotted or a trick skill if trick trait slotted,ef wont cleanse anything unless ur actively evading a actual attack. Thieves are doned all the time while engaging and using evades mid fight,I kill em all the time and yeah alot of times they disengage and come back later with CD-s which makes sense for that type of class but they definitely cant sit there and trade blows with my warrior by simply dodging around in melee range while were fighting like u guys make it seem like lol > > > It’s not a hyperbole they are arguing about a version of the spec, which takes a tanker amulet to actually be as tanks as a side noder. The trait itself can be that good and that’s the point > > > > > > > And meaning what? So if a thief takes a tanky amulet instead of a more power damage based one it shouldn't be more tanky than had it taken the damage amulet, or that a mediocre cleanse and heal on most builds lands to a more tanker build when built for,this is literally something all classes can and do. > Well yeah if 1 sustain trait out off the entire trait tree can make a burst spec, that can still hit 6k on larcenous strike, as tanky as specs trailed entirely as a duelist then yeah why not consider it a strong trait > But it doesn't so. I've been playing warrior, rev a lot recently and have played far more thief than those two in the past but I can assure u both my warrior and rev feel far more tanky in a fight than thief has never no matter the build, only thing I miss is the disengage that shadow step and sw2 gave me if using sword that is. Hell I get more sustain from forcefully great sword, mmr, frenzy and magebane than I do out of all thief's sustain traits if not out right avoiding damage as a thief that is. The defense line spits on any thief's sustain lines lol. Revs harold heal with staff blocks,heals and shiros endurance gain on riposte with daggers alone keeps me in a fight longer than thief traits do and that's not incorporating sustain giving traits lol. My point is all classes can do this and I find it funny the class with least innate sustain gets the most flack for it even if its actually a lesser degree of sustain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn. > > > > > > > > Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players. > > > > > > > > My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted". > > > > > > > Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > With the type of sustain it gives with acro yeah it’s almost as tanky as actual duelist specs with absolutely zero trades off of still being a roamer/ burster. I would say that is getting 100% close to being op. You can disagree and claim I’m needlessly promoting myself while your posting about how u can hit these guys at the end of the animation, but the fact remain you can try and counter play it as u suggested but there’s still absolutely zero trade offs for taking something that can potentially make a Roamer and a burst class about as tanky as an actual duelist. > > > > > > > > > > This is absolute hyperbole. Go play thief with acro and ef and see how the sustain matches up to a tank spec, hint it wont come close. U guys talk about ef like it cleanses on dodge not evade and its heal is almost trivial compared to the dps being thrown around, any lower and might as well not be there. U disengage while having condis u still have to cleanse with either a utility if slotted or a trick skill if trick trait slotted,ef wont cleanse anything unless ur actively evading a actual attack. Thieves are doned all the time while engaging and using evades mid fight,I kill em all the time and yeah alot of times they disengage and come back later with CD-s which makes sense for that type of class but they definitely cant sit there and trade blows with my warrior by simply dodging around in melee range while were fighting like u guys make it seem like lol > > > > It’s not a hyperbole they are arguing about a version of the spec, which takes a tanker amulet to actually be as tanks as a side noder. The trait itself can be that good and that’s the point > > > > > > > > > > And meaning what? So if a thief takes a tanky amulet instead of a more power damage based one it shouldn't be more tanky than had it taken the damage amulet, or that a mediocre cleanse and heal on most builds lands to a more tanker build when built for,this is literally something all classes can and do. > > Well yeah if 1 sustain trait out off the entire trait tree can make a burst spec, that can still hit 6k on larcenous strike, as tanky as specs trailed entirely as a duelist then yeah why not consider it a strong trait > > > > But it doesn't so. I've been playing warrior, rev a lot recently and have played far more thief than those two in the past but I can assure u both my warrior and rev feel far more tanky in a fight than thief has never no matter the build, only thing I miss is the disengage that shadow step and sw2 gave me if using sword that is. > Hell I get more sustain from forcefully great sword, mmr, frenzy and magebane than I do out of all thief's sustain traits if not out right avoiding damage as a thief that is. > The defense line sits on any thief's sustain lines lol. > Revs harold heal with staff blocks,heals and shires endurance gain on riposte with daggers alone keeps me in a fight longer than thief traits do and that's not incorporating sustain giving traits lol. My point is all classes can do this and I find it funny the class with least innate sustain gets the most flack for it even if its actually a lesser degree of sustain. I’d have to agree tbh but thief has way more dodges and can los much better via sword 2 and ports and it can also deny los better. This feels kind of good in 1v1s for me personally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > I’d have to agree tbh but thief has way more dodges and can los much better via sword 2 and ports and it can also deny los better. This feels kind of good in 1v1s for me personally Why can't it be good for 1v1s? Thief should be allowed to 1v1 if it specs for it. Also critting for 6k isn't a lot of damage. that's about half a glassy spec's base hp pool, assuming they do nothing to stop you, and you have a significant amount of setup to get that damage to land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 That a person may not like playing against a certain build is not germane to the discussion when trying to suggest it OP. If you go through the threads peoples have claimed almost every build one can care to name "not fun" to play against , be it thief with dodges and stealth, ranger and pets pew pewing ,mesmers, weavers and all that sustain wars with chained CC and blocks , scourges dropping AOE at will and so on. There hardly any classes or builds people have not called for changes to because facing it was "not fun". Everyone has a different take on what is "fun" to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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