Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > No. > > > > This is a knee jerk post and bad idea. > > > > Thief can use up to 3 skills in a row then everything is on cooldown, with the exception being heart seeker at this point. > > > > > > Any other class minus maybe engine can cycle through 8 cooldowns. > > > > Not every skill got a cooldown increase. > > > > Just the really really strong and quite frankly, overpowered ones. > > > > > > Thief has seen initiative cost increases over the years, while other classes have had reduction or at the very least stayed the same. > > > > You mean like untraited guard hammer 2 which got a 150% CD increase? From 4 to 10. It's barely critting for 3k. Barely 3k? How is that work? I shadow shot which is half base strength and .5 lower coefficient and it crits over 3k. I'll go test this, what build? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > No. > > > > > > This is a knee jerk post and bad idea. > > > > > > Thief can use up to 3 skills in a row then everything is on cooldown, with the exception being heart seeker at this point. > > > > > > > > > Any other class minus maybe engine can cycle through 8 cooldowns. > > > > > > Not every skill got a cooldown increase. > > > > > > Just the really really strong and quite frankly, overpowered ones. > > > > > > > > > Thief has seen initiative cost increases over the years, while other classes have had reduction or at the very least stayed the same. > > > > > > > You mean like untraited guard hammer 2 which got a 150% CD increase? From 4 to 10. It's barely critting for 3k. > > Barely 3k? > > How is that work? > > I shadow shot which is half base strength and .5 lower coefficient and it crits over 3k. > > I'll go test this, what build? Normal radiance core guard. And I'm talking in actual games. Can probably get 6k on golems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: >And I'm talking in actual games Nah none of that. give us an amulet/armor rating at least. There's a whole lot of circumstances that could lead you to getting 3k on someone in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > I love these moronic posters, makes me feel less bad about my views on people lol. > > > Shadow u keep spewing about thief spam this thief spam that, u know alot of the impactful thief skill cost 5 or 6 ini out of a pool of 12 right? I'll assume ur at least that knowledgeable so if a thief soams(as u say) the same skill that uses 5-6 ini that literally means that the thief cant use ANY more skills from ANY of its weaponsets and will have to wait for ini regen to fill enough for whatever skills needed next. Yeah in a perfect scenario IF a thief uses trickery(some thieves dont) and has rfi equipped and uses rfi the thief can do a third skill immediately but that's a big if. > > > That's a fair trade off from being able to use 10 weapon skills, 5 in an any order from each weapon. Quit ur whinning. > > > > Flanking Strike didn't have it's initiative cost touched. It's a spammable evade that costs 4 initiative, not 5-6. > > > > What thief builds don't use trickery? lol > > > > Thanks for stating the obvious though. People clearly had no idea thieves can't use their weapon skills if they run out of initiative. /clap > > First of all I said some skills are 4-5 not all and even 4 ini is spamable 3 times and that's all she wrote, u kno if u want to spam that same skill and be left unable to do nothing else untill ini recharged then go for it that's a good way to get downed fast,some good thief play right there lol. > Let this sink in as I knew ud prove my point for me lmao. > What build doesn't use trickery u say? All tho most do there is some that dont but why is trickery almost mandatory for viable builds? Yeah because most builds without preparedness is a handicap due to base ini vs skill costs :) and ur proposal is to compound that with longer ini recharge. > Yeah clap! > Oh wait this is another I hate thief let me propose a garbage idea that kills the class and its builds post. Quit wasting people's time. Hello Mr. Overreacting, Extremely Defensive, Biased Thief Main, Reducing the initiative regen rate from 1.67 seconds per tick to 2 seconds per tick means you lose out on a solid 6 initiative per minute. That's like, 1 or 2 skills worth of initiative. Do you still think my proposal would "kill the class?" :joy: You'd go from the current 36 initiative per minute to 30. Wow such a harsh nerf, unplayable. /s Thief is my [3rd most played class](https://i.imgur.com/YejBrkL.png?1) btw. So if you're just going to jump the gun and flip out over a nerf proposal that's relatively mild, "quit wasting people's time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 @"Psycoprophet.8107" Here's another comparison for you. - Ranger Greatsword had the cooldowns for Maul increased from 4s to 6s, Swoop increased from 12s to 15s, and Counterattack from 15s to 25s. - In other words, instead of being able to Maul 15x per minute, Swoop 5x per minute, and Counterattack 4x per minute... it's now 10 Mauls, 4 Swoops, and 2 Counterattacks. - Traited, it went from 18 Mauls, 6 Swoops, and 5 Counterattacks to 12 Mauls, 5 Swoops, and 3 Counterattacks. So, we've lost 3-9 skills per minute on Greatsword alone. Other classes ended up being pretty similar. Slightly adjusting the initiative regen to reduce the amount of weapon skills you can use by 1-2 per minute is still way less of a nerf than what everyone else got. If you wanted to match what other classes got, initiative regen should be slowed to about 2.5 seconds per tick so that initiative goes to 24 per minute as opposed to 36. a.k.a. 2-4 less skills per minute. Even then, it's still less harsh of a nerf than what other classes are receiving.... So think about that. Thieves are going to have way higher apm after the patch than other classes. Hence why I made this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlie.7641 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 This thread just proves Arena net should stop listening to the Anti thief whiners. They always look at things in a bubble... They increased Initiative, they increased Cd's, lowered damage and decreased Defenses across the board Everything is mostly the same... just at a slower pace. Stay Calm and don't panic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > No. > > > > > > > > This is a knee jerk post and bad idea. > > > > > > > > Thief can use up to 3 skills in a row then everything is on cooldown, with the exception being heart seeker at this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any other class minus maybe engine can cycle through 8 cooldowns. > > > > > > > > Not every skill got a cooldown increase. > > > > > > > > Just the really really strong and quite frankly, overpowered ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has seen initiative cost increases over the years, while other classes have had reduction or at the very least stayed the same. > > > > > > > > > > You mean like untraited guard hammer 2 which got a 150% CD increase? From 4 to 10. It's barely critting for 3k. > > > > Barely 3k? > > > > How is that work? > > > > I shadow shot which is half base strength and .5 lower coefficient and it crits over 3k. > > > > I'll go test this, what build? > > Normal radiance core guard. And I'm talking in actual games. Can probably get 6k on golems. Well, I'm not hip with guard. I made one a while back so I could have a reason to have a character wear the tight pants. The 5.6k is against a spellbreaker, so I assume at least demolishers ammy I don't play enough guard to know what's good or what build you mean so I just made one from scratch http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAIx3lVw8YfMQ2IO0PurcA-z5IeKZKE6VEEvCogJgNGA  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > @"Psycoprophet.8107" > > Here's another comparison for you. > > - Ranger Greatsword had the cooldowns for Maul increased from 4s to 6s, Swoop increased from 12s to 15s, and Counterattack from 15s to 25s. > - In other words, instead of being able to Maul 15x per minute, Swoop 5x per minute, and Counterattack 4x per minute... it's now 10 Mauls, 4 Swoops, and 2 Counterattacks. > - Traited, it went from 18 Mauls, 6 Swoops, and 5 Counterattacks to 12 Mauls, 5 Swoops, and 3 Counterattacks. > > So, we've lost 3-9 skills per minute on Greatsword alone. Other classes ended up being pretty similar. Slightly adjusting the initiative regen to reduce the amount of weapon skills you can use by 1-2 per minute is still way less of a nerf than what everyone else got. If you wanted to match what other classes got, initiative regen should be slowed to about 2.5 seconds per tick so that initiative goes to 24 per minute as opposed to 36. a.k.a. 2-4 less skills per minute. Even then, it's still less harsh of a nerf than what other classes are receiving.... > > So think about that. Thieves are going to have way higher apm after the patch than other classes. Hence why I made this thread. (traited...cause it will be) 12 Mauls, 5 Swoops, and 3 Counterattacks in one minute? BTW, initiative is replenished at 1 per second. so 60 initiative per minute. okay. now some skills cost 6 ini so that is 10 skills in a minute (plus 2 for a full tank) now some skills cost 5 ini so that is 12 skills in a minute (plus 2 for a full tank) 1 skill cost 3, heartseeker, and that is 20 (plus 5 for a full tank) but, you said 12 Mauls, 5 Swoops, and 3 Counterattacks. (on one weapon mind you) 12 + 5+ 3 = 20 skills per minute, but wait!!!!! you have another weapon with alternative cooldowns what if it was similar? or half? say 10 skills per minute on the other? 30 skills per minute, 50% more skills used than someone on a heartseeker spamming thief ( 25% if the thief had full initiative). I think initiative is fine, and the calculations you provided against my examples show why. I think there is a solid reason the devs won't make the changes you are asking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > I love these moronic posters, makes me feel less bad about my views on people lol. > > > > Shadow u keep spewing about thief spam this thief spam that, u know alot of the impactful thief skill cost 5 or 6 ini out of a pool of 12 right? I'll assume ur at least that knowledgeable so if a thief soams(as u say) the same skill that uses 5-6 ini that literally means that the thief cant use ANY more skills from ANY of its weaponsets and will have to wait for ini regen to fill enough for whatever skills needed next. Yeah in a perfect scenario IF a thief uses trickery(some thieves dont) and has rfi equipped and uses rfi the thief can do a third skill immediately but that's a big if. > > > > That's a fair trade off from being able to use 10 weapon skills, 5 in an any order from each weapon. Quit ur whinning. > > > > > > Flanking Strike didn't have it's initiative cost touched. It's a spammable evade that costs 4 initiative, not 5-6. > > > > > > What thief builds don't use trickery? lol > > > > > > Thanks for stating the obvious though. People clearly had no idea thieves can't use their weapon skills if they run out of initiative. /clap > > > > First of all I said some skills are 4-5 not all and even 4 ini is spamable 3 times and that's all she wrote, u kno if u want to spam that same skill and be left unable to do nothing else untill ini recharged then go for it that's a good way to get downed fast,some good thief play right there lol. > > Let this sink in as I knew ud prove my point for me lmao. > > What build doesn't use trickery u say? All tho most do there is some that dont but why is trickery almost mandatory for viable builds? Yeah because most builds without preparedness is a handicap due to base ini vs skill costs :) and ur proposal is to compound that with longer ini recharge. > > Yeah clap! > > Oh wait this is another I hate thief let me propose a garbage idea that kills the class and its builds post. Quit wasting people's time. > > Hello Mr. Overreacting, Extremely Defensive, Biased Thief Main, > > Reducing the initiative regen rate from 1.67 seconds per tick to 2 seconds per tick means you lose out on a solid 6 initiative per minute. That's like, 1 or 2 skills worth of initiative. Do you still think my proposal would "kill the class?" :joy: > > You'd go from the current 36 initiative per minute to 30. Wow such a harsh nerf, unplayable. /s > > Thief is my [3rd most played class](https://i.imgur.com/YejBrkL.png?1) btw. So if you're just going to jump the gun and flip out over a nerf proposal that's relatively mild, "quit wasting people's time." I actually play more warrior than I do thief when I actually do play which is when I take little breaks from actual good games so...... to be honestly don't care a great deal where thief or even warrior land after the patch as they will still be the classes I mess around on in the small playtime I devote to gw2. Me posting what I did was a overreaction? U sure about that considering every 3 post that pops on these forums is a thief is OP and now after patch notes released it's now they WILL be op. Seriously u guys need to play some real actual competitive pvp games and get decent on them then come back and reevaluate ur whines about thief cuz they really arnt a problem if u actually learn to fight them. Why is it that thief is literally the least problematic class for me to fight even though I'm a solo q gold player? I guess I'm lucky every thief I've met in the years I've been playing have been average at best? Most times on my warrior their not to difficult to fight. Yeah there's been the odd one that wrecked me which happens no matter the class. Is it cuz I played thief for yrs and if so the games pretty easy to get down and understand a classes skills etc so play the class for few hrs learn it enough to fight it and quit whining. These forums could actually be filled with decent posts but instead its filled with people's complaints about classes that they have trouble fighting automatically assuming claiming their op. Or u guys ever think the thief was just better player than u? I find it odd a player such as me who definitely not amazing can hold their own against most thieves I come up against and find far more difficult classes to fight against than teefy's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" > > > > Here's another comparison for you. > > > > - Ranger Greatsword had the cooldowns for Maul increased from 4s to 6s, Swoop increased from 12s to 15s, and Counterattack from 15s to 25s. > > - In other words, instead of being able to Maul 15x per minute, Swoop 5x per minute, and Counterattack 4x per minute... it's now 10 Mauls, 4 Swoops, and 2 Counterattacks. > > - Traited, it went from 18 Mauls, 6 Swoops, and 5 Counterattacks to 12 Mauls, 5 Swoops, and 3 Counterattacks. > > > > So, we've lost 3-9 skills per minute on Greatsword alone. Other classes ended up being pretty similar. Slightly adjusting the initiative regen to reduce the amount of weapon skills you can use by 1-2 per minute is still way less of a nerf than what everyone else got. If you wanted to match what other classes got, initiative regen should be slowed to about 2.5 seconds per tick so that initiative goes to 24 per minute as opposed to 36. a.k.a. 2-4 less skills per minute. Even then, it's still less harsh of a nerf than what other classes are receiving.... > > > > So think about that. Thieves are going to have way higher apm after the patch than other classes. Hence why I made this thread. > > (traited...cause it will be) > 12 Mauls, 5 Swoops, and 3 Counterattacks in one minute? > > BTW, initiative is replenished at 1 per second. > > so 60 initiative per minute. > > okay. > > now some skills cost 6 ini so that is 10 skills in a minute (plus 2 for a full tank) > > now some skills cost 5 ini so that is 12 skills in a minute (plus 2 for a full tank) > > 1 skill cost 3, heartseeker, and that is 20 (plus 5 for a full tank) > > but, you said 12 Mauls, 5 Swoops, and 3 Counterattacks. (on one weapon mind you) > > 12 + 5+ 3 = 20 skills per minute, but wait!!!!! > > you have another weapon with alternative cooldowns > > what if it was similar? > > or half? > > say 10 skills per minute on the other? > > 30 skills per minute, 50% more skills used than someone on a heartseeker spamming thief ( 25% if the thief had full initiative). > > I think initiative is fine, and the calculations you provided against my examples show why. > > I think there is a solid reason the devs won't make the changes you are asking for. > > If you look at how many attack skills are necessary to dodge every minute, most of the classes or builds come out to around 30-35 skills. In other words, the pace of the game is about 1 skill every 2-1.7 seconds. The pace is getting lowered across the board significantly but a single initiative point increase on realistically 2 skills total depending on the weapons you choose will barely make a difference. You mentioned the weapon swap btw as if we can cast skills from both weapons at the same time. Even with the second weapon taken into account, the pace of the game is still around 30-35 buttons per minute currently (only considering important skills to avoid). That goes for everything from condi mirage, demo spellbreaker, to lb/gs soulbeast and more. Tools Holo actually pushed (and still pushes) closer to 40 which is why was hard to fight against when it had much higher stability uptime. Symbol Brand is also way higher than the average. Plus, the frequent access to ports and stealth on thief can force defensive cooldowns from your enemies (because they have to play predictively) while reducing the need to trade skills one for one. So, for a primarily roaming class that isn't forced to fight and remain on point, having slightly less apm than other builds is fine. Where it gets messed up is when thief has a much higher potential apm than every other class (post-patch) on top of being extremely hard to punish or catch with the reduced access to burst and mobility. Longer defensive cooldowns means thieves get a lot stronger as well in +1 situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > I love these moronic posters, makes me feel less bad about my views on people lol. > > > > > Shadow u keep spewing about thief spam this thief spam that, u know alot of the impactful thief skill cost 5 or 6 ini out of a pool of 12 right? I'll assume ur at least that knowledgeable so if a thief soams(as u say) the same skill that uses 5-6 ini that literally means that the thief cant use ANY more skills from ANY of its weaponsets and will have to wait for ini regen to fill enough for whatever skills needed next. Yeah in a perfect scenario IF a thief uses trickery(some thieves dont) and has rfi equipped and uses rfi the thief can do a third skill immediately but that's a big if. > > > > > That's a fair trade off from being able to use 10 weapon skills, 5 in an any order from each weapon. Quit ur whinning. > > > > > > > > Flanking Strike didn't have it's initiative cost touched. It's a spammable evade that costs 4 initiative, not 5-6. > > > > > > > > What thief builds don't use trickery? lol > > > > > > > > Thanks for stating the obvious though. People clearly had no idea thieves can't use their weapon skills if they run out of initiative. /clap > > > > > > First of all I said some skills are 4-5 not all and even 4 ini is spamable 3 times and that's all she wrote, u kno if u want to spam that same skill and be left unable to do nothing else untill ini recharged then go for it that's a good way to get downed fast,some good thief play right there lol. > > > Let this sink in as I knew ud prove my point for me lmao. > > > What build doesn't use trickery u say? All tho most do there is some that dont but why is trickery almost mandatory for viable builds? Yeah because most builds without preparedness is a handicap due to base ini vs skill costs :) and ur proposal is to compound that with longer ini recharge. > > > Yeah clap! > > > Oh wait this is another I hate thief let me propose a garbage idea that kills the class and its builds post. Quit wasting people's time. > > > > Hello Mr. Overreacting, Extremely Defensive, Biased Thief Main, > > > > Reducing the initiative regen rate from 1.67 seconds per tick to 2 seconds per tick means you lose out on a solid 6 initiative per minute. That's like, 1 or 2 skills worth of initiative. Do you still think my proposal would "kill the class?" :joy: > > > > You'd go from the current 36 initiative per minute to 30. Wow such a harsh nerf, unplayable. /s > > > > Thief is my [3rd most played class](https://i.imgur.com/YejBrkL.png?1) btw. So if you're just going to jump the gun and flip out over a nerf proposal that's relatively mild, "quit wasting people's time." > > I actually play more warrior than I do thief when I actually do play which is when I take little breaks from actual good games so...... to be honestly don't care a great deal where thief or even warrior land after the patch as they will still be the classes I mess around on in the small playtime I devote to gw2. > Me posting what I did was a overreaction? U sure about that considering every 3 post that pops on these forums is a thief is OP and now after patch notes released it's now they WILL be op. Seriously u guys need to play some real actual competitive pvp games and get decent on them then come back and reevaluate ur whines about thief cuz they really arnt a problem if u actually learn to fight them. Why is it that thief is literally the least problematic class for me to fight even though I'm a solo q gold player? I guess I'm lucky every thief I've met in the years I've been playing have been average at best? Most times on my warrior their not to difficult to fight. Yeah there's been the odd one that wrecked me which happens no matter the class. Is it cuz I played thief for yrs and if so the games pretty easy to get down and understand a classes skills etc so play the class for few hrs learn it enough to fight it and quit whining. These forums could actually be filled with decent posts but instead its filled with people's complaints about classes that they have trouble fighting automatically assuming claiming their op. Or u guys ever think the thief was just better player than u? I find it odd a player such as me who definitely not amazing can hold their own against most thieves I come up against and find far more difficult classes to fight against than teefy's. :joy: Okay man. I'm not complaining about thief currently. Do you understand the premise of this thread? AFTER the patch releases, every other classes' apm goes way down due to the relatively significant cooldown increases on a wide variety of weapons. However, a single initiative cost increases on realistically, 2 skills depending on what weapons you take means thieves will play about the same as they do now. That will cause issues. You can stop with the whole "Poor me D:" thing. Thieves are fine right now but there's a very good chance they're about to be very imbalanced following the balance patch. Btw, people in gold generally have a skewed perspective of balance due to the fact that the people they're fighting against on a consistent basis, don't know how to maximize their classes' potentials. Nothing against you personally, but I think an NFL player would have a better understanding of their sport than a rec player. Edit: I don't care anymore. There's no point in me justifying this to you and you don't have to agree with me. I've already stated my reasons for the proposal for anyone that wants to read them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 leave as is but consider post patch only if they are severely over performing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > leave as is but consider post patch only if they are severely over performing. Yep. I agree. This is just my speculation and the reasons behind it. If it's fine after the patch, leave it alone. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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