Mesmer will be the only class where you pick traits to be weaker

[LughLongArm.5460]

Every specialization is kinda/supposed to be working that way. This what A.net referred to as "trade offs"

For Example Ranger(druid)

" Gain access to glyphs. You can become a celestial avatar once you gain enough astral force. Generate astral force by healing allies and damaging foes.Your pet's attributes are weaker."

Notice - your pet's attributes are weaker.

Soulbeast just got a trade-off as well(Losing pet swap).

 

So ya, it is about time for Mesmers to get some "trade offs".

[Qetesh.2589]

time will tell that this nerf will destroy mirage or not.

[bluri.2653]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > Your 1 dodge is the only dodge in game that can be used and cast stuff at the same time.

> >

> > Stomping, also use it while being stunned etc.

> >

> > Thats already beyond broken

>

> I'm curious of how high you can climb with this broken stuff.

 

I was talking about currently, not what it will become

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > Your 1 dodge is the only dodge in game that can be used and cast stuff at the same time.

> >

> > Stomping, also use it while being stunned etc.

> >

> > Thats already beyond broken

>

> I'm curious of how high you can climb with this broken stuff.

 

Is that a challenge :o

[Quadox.7834]

Worst part is lack of mobility because of sword ambush

[Crab Fear.1624]

Give them 2 dodges for picking elusive mind.

[Simonoly.4352]

Whilst not entirely true as other specs lose other things (look at that Soulbeast pet swap loss), the things that both Mirage and Chrono lose are...pretty fundamental to the success and playability of the class in general. Chrono is already irrelevant for competitive play, it would be a shame if Mirage goes the same way.

[Genesis.5169]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> You forgot to mention:

>

> * Mirages gain lots of Mirrors and Jaunt for an evade, but can pretty much do anything with that evade.

> * Chronomancers get a shield and more effective clones for less control over shatters.

>

> It's almost as if people refuse to even try.

 

Bruh, chrono hasn't been in pvp forever man.

Double Bruh, we gotta get to those mirrors and often we are not next to our clones, and its exactly hard to find the one mesmer running to the mirror.

Triple bruh, like literally none of our skills in pvp generate mirrors.

 

Dude like play a mirage before you comment man.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > You forgot to mention:

> >

> > * Mirages gain lots of Mirrors and Jaunt for an evade, but can pretty much do anything with that evade.

> > * Chronomancers get a shield and more effective clones for less control over shatters.

> >

> > It's almost as if people refuse to even try.

>

> Bruh, chrono hasn't been in pvp forever man.

> Double Bruh, we gotta get to those mirrors and often we are not next to our clones, and its exactly hard to find the one mesmer running to the mirror.

> Triple bruh, like literally none of our skills in pvp generate mirrors.

>

> Dude like play a mirage before you comment man.

 

in this entire season I have not seen a single chronomancer, last season I have seen 1 ( preety sure it was mesmer from the forum playing chrono for shit and giggles )

 

[reikken.4961]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > you don't lose dodge distance though. mirage cloak gives you +66% move speed while active, so if you're moving you cover the same distance as a normal dodge

>

> Some math:

> 1 dodge is 300 units in 0.75 seconds in any direction.

> Mirage dodge is 349 units in 0.75 seconds, only going forward.

 

movement speed is capped at 400 units per second

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> Triple bruh, like literally none of our skills in pvp generate mirrors.

Heal does, but it's short and it's usually risky to go back for mirror (except in 1v1s) :lol:

[Odik.4587]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> You forgot to mention:

>

> * Mirages gain **lots of Mirrors** and **Jaunt for an evade**, but can pretty much do anything with that evade.

> * **Chronomancers get a shield and more effective clones for less control over shatters**.

>

> It's almost as if people refuse to even try.

If I would be you, I would be embarassed to post something like this

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > you don't lose dodge distance though. mirage cloak gives you +66% move speed while active, so if you're moving you cover the same distance as a normal dodge

> >

> > Some math:

> > 1 dodge is 300 units in 0.75 seconds in any direction.

> > Mirage dodge is 349 units in 0.75 seconds, only going forward.

>

> movement speed is capped at 400 units per second

 

Movement speed is capped at 400 units/s.

Out of combat speed is 294 units/s; combat speed however, is 210 units/s (going forwards).

 

1 dodge is 300 units in 0.75s.

300/0.75 = 400 units/s = movement speed cap.

1 ooc mirage dodge going forward is the same distance, since it is not an animation and so it is capped (294/s * 1.66 > 400/s).

 

From the wiki:

*Movement Speed increases do not stack with each other—only the greatest value takes effect.* Hence mirage dodge will only take into account the +66% unless buffed with superspeed - in which it will cover the same distance as a normal dodge because it is capped.

 

1 in-combat mirage dodge is 210/s * 1.66. But it is only for 0.75s, not 1s.

So 210 * 1.66 * 0.75 = **261 units, which is less than a regular dodge**. And this is only going forwards.

Strafe dodge = ~~224 units.~~ 135 units.

Backwards dodge = ~~131 units.~~ 79 units. (whoops *sideways and backward motion cannot be increased beyond their base levels by any effect*)

 

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> to add to this

> mirage dodge can be slowed down by cripple/chill. normal dodge cant.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Noodle Ant.1605"

to add to this

mirage dodge can be slowed down by cripple/chill. normal dodge cant.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> Better math

 

Oh, I forgot to take 0.75 into account. I'll edit my original comment.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > > @"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said:

> > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > > > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter

> > > > > > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge

> > > > > >

> > > > > > what other class have traits like that?

> > > > >

> > > > > Weaver has a reworked attunement system

> > > > gain new skills with better dmg

> > > > > Berserker loses bursts

> > > > gain more dmg as trade off

> > > > > Spellbreaker loses lvl 2/3 bursts

> > > > still do the same dmg

> > > > > Reaper has faster shroud degen and completely differenty skills

> > > > gain more dmg

> > > > > Scourge loses shroud

> > > > gain barrier and utility

> > > > > Scrapper loses vitality+f5

> > > > gain barrier

> > > > > Holosmith loses f5

> > > > gain everything

> > > > > Renegade loses the energy gain skill

> > > > gain other skills

> > > > > Herald loses the energy gain skill

> > > > gain more buffs and sustain

> > > > > Soulbeast will lose a pet next path

> > > > can merge and gain more stats/skills

> > > > >

> > > > > So that would be most of the elite spec having either a clear downside or something that isn't just pure upside

> > > >

> > > > all these have a good trade-off, what is the trade off of chrono and mirage

> > > >

> > >

> > > Gain ability to reuse phantasm and refresh all cooldowns

> > it would be a trade off if you could use it every 20s or so, you use it one time per game and most times you just back in time with lower life

> > > More mirage cloaks built into skills and traits, and gain extra dps and skill in ambushes.

> > mirage cloak is a class mechanic so without it you are just a normal mesmer, losing 1 dodge is like a downgrade

> >

>

> Yeah, no.

>

> Refreshing all your cooldowns can never be a 20 sec cooldown, lol.

>

> Mirage can gain Cloak in many other ways.

 

Funny you should mention it.

Rifle Butt: Increased the recharge of this skill from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. If you strike a foe with this ability then all other rifle skills recover 1 ammunition. Slowed down the animation so the knockback occurs at 600ms (up from 367ms)

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Leonidrex.5649]

to everyone whining about "trade off"

trade offs are pointless, its all about what ENTIRE trait tree gives you, against what you lose by taking it + what you would gain from taking other traitlines.

look at SPB becouse it seems the most if not the most broken traitline in the game for that aspect.

you lose ability to use lvl 2 and 3 burst -> ? questionable downside, since dagger uses lvl 1 anyways, GS lvl 1 is as good as 2/3 so for dagger/gs its UPSIDE not a downside.

and you lose 1 bar -> downside.

what you gain in turn? extra low cooldown, defensive CD, that aoe dazes ( CC,defence )

you gain trait that gives immob or damage ( damage or CC )

then you gain damage when you remove boons ( damage )

then you refresh burst skills and gain power/ferocity, and since burst skills give swiftness and heal.. and remove boons or give fury ( you gain damage + damage + mobility + healing + extra cooldowns )

then you gain tether ( reveal, damage, endurance gain, healing, CC )

so you lose questionable adrenaline usage and gain.

 

Defence, CC, CC, CC, CC, CC, CC, healing, mobility, damage, boon remove, refresh cd, nextra cooldowns )

what does chrono give, can you compare it even close to this? do you get everything? and for giving so little?

this is why NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY plays chrono.

for every chrono I see 20 druids and 10 core engis.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> Whilst not entirely true as other specs lose other things (look at that Soulbeast pet swap loss), the things that both Mirage and Chrono lose are...pretty fundamental to the success and playability of the class in general. Chrono is already irrelevant for competitive play, it would be a shame if Mirage goes the same way.

 

This.

The point of mirage is being evasive and use the evasive period to attack.

Now, since pof, vigor was nerfed all around, mirage cloak was nerfed several times.

From a high evade uptime mirage became one of the professions with least amount of vigor.

With this change it will be as dead as chrono.

 

If you want a fair comparison is like saying if you spec DD, a profession who relies heavily on evades, you have now only one dodge and physical skills don't grant endurance anymore (you will get steal back :D).

[Odik.4587]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > Whilst not entirely true as other specs lose other things (look at that Soulbeast pet swap loss), the things that both Mirage and Chrono lose are...pretty fundamental to the success and playability of the class in general. Chrono is already irrelevant for competitive play, it would be a shame if Mirage goes the same way.

>

> This.

> The point of mirage is being evasive and use the evasive period to attack.

> Now, since pof, vigor was nerfed all around, mirage cloak was nerfed several times.

> From a high evade uptime mirage became one of the professions with least amount of vigor.

> With this change it will be as dead as chrono.

>

> **If you want a fair comparison is like saying if you spec DD, a profession who relies heavily on evades, you have now only one dodge and physical skills don't grant endurance anymore (you will get steal back :D).**

At least you will not be mistaken, they can spam evades from weapon skills like no tomorrow. They dont need to have evades at all ;)

 

[Yasai.3549]

I feel like Deception skills could use some work too.

 

Mirrors are too immobile to use effectively on a class which wants to be as mobile as possible so imo remove Mirrors and put Mirage Cloak at the end of Deceptions that would usually generate a Mirror.

 

For example, maybe **Crystal Sands** can be changed to center on the Mirage and follow them instead and at the end of the skill, Mirage Cloak is granted.

 

Could be a good skill to go with Condi Axe Mirage plays.

 

And **Illusionary Ambush** could maybe be a Targeted AoE with 900 casting range?

Not quite a Blink but can be used as a Blink substitute or together with Blink for more mobility.

 

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > > Whilst not entirely true as other specs lose other things (look at that Soulbeast pet swap loss), the things that both Mirage and Chrono lose are...pretty fundamental to the success and playability of the class in general. Chrono is already irrelevant for competitive play, it would be a shame if Mirage goes the same way.

> >

> > This.

> > The point of mirage is being evasive and use the evasive period to attack.

> > Now, since pof, vigor was nerfed all around, mirage cloak was nerfed several times.

> > From a high evade uptime mirage became one of the professions with least amount of vigor.

> > With this change it will be as dead as chrono.

> >

> > **If you want a fair comparison is like saying if you spec DD, a profession who relies heavily on evades, you have now only one dodge and physical skills don't grant endurance anymore (you will get steal back :D).**

> At least you will not be mistaken, they can spam evades from weapon skills like no tomorrow. They dont need to have evades at all ;)

>

 

True.

Still you have the counterdesign aspect.

"hey we made this elite based on evasion except they can't evade kitten now, enjoy!".

 

I'm rather amazed how they can make stupid decision after stupid decision nonstop, gotta give ANerf credit, they might be the worse devs at balancing in the entire business, no wonder everyone is leaving the boat.

 

As for the "they can use skills while evading" bunch you've to either never played the profession or be dishonest, not even ambushes are totally covered by the evade, as for the while stunned bit, every mesmer since pof released wanted it gone.

 

Mirage had already a trade-off, the dodge movement but following the chrono example, it is the only professions with multiple tradeoffs.

 

.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > > > Whilst not entirely true as other specs lose other things (look at that Soulbeast pet swap loss), the things that both Mirage and Chrono lose are...pretty fundamental to the success and playability of the class in general. Chrono is already irrelevant for competitive play, it would be a shame if Mirage goes the same way.

> > >

> > > This.

> > > The point of mirage is being evasive and use the evasive period to attack.

> > > Now, since pof, vigor was nerfed all around, mirage cloak was nerfed several times.

> > > From a high evade uptime mirage became one of the professions with least amount of vigor.

> > > With this change it will be as dead as chrono.

> > >

> > > **If you want a fair comparison is like saying if you spec DD, a profession who relies heavily on evades, you have now only one dodge and physical skills don't grant endurance anymore (you will get steal back :D).**

> > At least you will not be mistaken, they can spam evades from weapon skills like no tomorrow. They dont need to have evades at all ;)

> >

>

> True.

> Still you have the counterdesign aspect.

> "hey we made this elite based on evasion except they can't evade kitten now, enjoy!".

>

> I'm rather amazed how they can make stupid decision after stupid decision nonstop, gotta give ANerf credit, they might be the worse devs at balancing in the entire business, no wonder everyone is leaving the boat.

>

> As for the "they can use skills while evading" bunch you've to either never played the profession or be dishonest, not even ambushes are totally covered by the evade, as for the while stunned bit, every mesmer since pof released wanted it gone.

>

> Mirage had already a trade-off, the dodge movement but following the chrono example, it is the only professions with multiple tradeoffs.

I dont think CMC was there before,but such dumb approach to deal with mirage (seems like all clever people were fired during lay offs)... I remember long ago someone was joking about 1 evade and its here now, really.. ?

Chrono is a whole another story. I believe this change made a lot of people quit and they are fine with it. Sigh.

Mesmer indeed is the only class that become unplayble after their "bright" idea's and a straight downgrade compared to core.

[FyzE.3472]

Every profession gets a nerf, mesmers most affected.