How are non trickery builds feeling?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

So now that ini has been increased on some key skill yet again how are non trickery builds feeling? They feeling somewhat similar still?

[Alatar.7364]

What do you mean similar?

Now that the Ini cost has been increased for some skills and reduced for none the Trickery line is even more uber mandatory then it was before, I didn't believe it was possible but apparently...

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> What do you mean similar?

> Now that the Ini cost has been increased for some skills and reduced for none the Trickery line is even more uber mandatory then it was before, I didn't believe it was possible but apparently...

 

I was hoping if enough thief players commented on how mandatory trickery line now is basically wrecking build deversity maybe cmc might notice and actually do somthing about it lol

[saerni.2584]

My set only saw an initiative increase on Choking Gas, which also got buffed to a 1 second guaranteed daze...so it is a mixed bag.

 

I don’t think it is impossible to run non-trickery. The issue as I mentioned in the consolidated thread is that different sets have very different costs and that leads to a very uneven experience when using skills across sets.

 

If you run non-trickery you have far fewer mistakes and tend to need to use only low initiative skills. On short bow, for example, the extra initiative means you basically can’t use skills because CG and IA are both so expensive and you will need to use them multiple times (either to prevent a downed enemy from being resed or to escape). Just one is never enough and you end up needing to not use any initiative elsewhere to be able to do that.

 

In fairness, escape and AoE cc are strong and they want to make spamming those skills significant. But it’s hard, with the initiative system, to not end up locking the entire weapon set when you make initiative costs that high. In Ketsu’s parlance, it is still the best ability and will be spammed regardless of the cooldown. It’s just the rest of the abilities will be ignored.

[UNOwen.7132]

The only non-trickery build that was any good was Deadeye, and that didnt really change, you still have the same initiative costs, M7 still lets you keep up your initiative and so on. But yeah, if youre not Rifle DE, these changes *suck*. Honestly, at this point Im not sure how to fix it. Maybe giving other traitlines initiative regeneration, but Acro and SA already have it (granted SAs is slow and in-stealth, which means that its pretty bad in the one scenario where you need it, i.e. in-combat), and that hasnt done much good. Or you just remove the Initiative traits in Trickery, but then that might make the traitline weaker.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

You either have to take trickery or M7 in general these days I think, it's very difficult to press an attack without either of those things. Especially since the last patch's damage nerf, I think you're better off building ini regen and going for more of a bruiser build now. Going all in on damage doesn't really have the kick it needs anymore.

[kash.9213]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> You either have to take trickery or M7 in general these days I think, it's very difficult to press an attack without either of those things. Especially since the last patch's damage nerf, I think you're better off building ini regen and going for more of a bruiser build now. Going all in on damage doesn't really have the kick it needs anymore.

 

I still take Trickery for the other stuff anyway. M7 has a good lineup of stuff and you can still hit a DJ at 5 Malice if you need to but I'm going to try BQoBD off and on and see what feels best. I grabbed whatever Life Leech and Siphon that can fit into my mirror builds that also doubled up as something else to make the most out of slot choices. I have to supplement my big heal somehow anyway and they're all going off as consequence of what I'm already doing. I wouldn't call that a valid answer though since I don't see anyone going for anything close to meta touching those and even my food adds to the line up which means I'm not taking that Damage reduction but I have to have get the momentum on taking out that health bar but still take a hit or two. I feel like I can ease up a bit in this weeks matchup and might try some other gimmick.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> So now that ini has been increased on some key skill yet again how are non trickery builds feeling? They feeling somewhat similar still?

 

My build is unaffected with the init cost change, however, even though the cost didn't change for the skill I'm using, the effect is halved thus they effectively doubled the cost of my skills to get the same result pre-patch.

 

In a sense, I get more value from using Deathblossom with +1 init cost, than using Unload having half the pre-patch damage. :/

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I dont run trickery and while I run out of int quickly, my build also seems to make up for it for the most part (re-positioning and high amount of immob for example)

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > You either have to take trickery or M7 in general these days I think, it's very difficult to press an attack without either of those things. Especially since the last patch's damage nerf, I think you're better off building ini regen and going for more of a bruiser build now. Going all in on damage doesn't really have the kick it needs anymore.

>

> I still take Trickery for the other stuff anyway. M7 has a good lineup of stuff and you can still hit a DJ at 5 Malice if you need to but I'm going to try BQoBD off and on and see what feels best. I grabbed whatever Life Leech and Siphon that can fit into my mirror builds that also doubled up as something else to make the most out of slot choices. I have to supplement my big heal somehow anyway and they're all going off as consequence of what I'm already doing. I wouldn't call that a valid answer though since I don't see anyone going for anything close to meta touching those and even my food adds to the line up which means I'm not taking that Damage reduction but I have to have get the momentum on taking out that health bar but still take a hit or two. I feel like I can ease up a bit in this weeks matchup and might try some other gimmick.

 

True that. The problem is sustain without disengaging; the old CS SA DE build had one or two attacks that could one shot then you had to back off and wait for the mark cooldown, now the damage isn't enough to get that effect so the build isn't viable imo (A +1 DE is just straight up inferior to DD in every way). I'd rather take my SA trickery DE build that can fire off less damaging but more consistent attacks, and that can survive for a time outside of stealth. Life leech does add up tho, it's the main reason condi DE works so well imo (tormenting runes plus skale venom on P/D, on top of SA regen and leech). It's hard to get that level of sustain on a power build without sacrificing too much tho. Hope you find a good build out of it somewhere ^^

[kash.9213]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > You either have to take trickery or M7 in general these days I think, it's very difficult to press an attack without either of those things. Especially since the last patch's damage nerf, I think you're better off building ini regen and going for more of a bruiser build now. Going all in on damage doesn't really have the kick it needs anymore.

> >

> > I still take Trickery for the other stuff anyway. M7 has a good lineup of stuff and you can still hit a DJ at 5 Malice if you need to but I'm going to try BQoBD off and on and see what feels best. I grabbed whatever Life Leech and Siphon that can fit into my mirror builds that also doubled up as something else to make the most out of slot choices. I have to supplement my big heal somehow anyway and they're all going off as consequence of what I'm already doing. I wouldn't call that a valid answer though since I don't see anyone going for anything close to meta touching those and even my food adds to the line up which means I'm not taking that Damage reduction but I have to have get the momentum on taking out that health bar but still take a hit or two. I feel like I can ease up a bit in this weeks matchup and might try some other gimmick.

>

> True that. The problem is sustain without disengaging; the old CS SA DE build had one or two attacks that could one shot then you had to back off and wait for the mark cooldown, now the damage isn't enough to get that effect so the build isn't viable imo (A +1 DE is just straight up inferior to DD in every way). I'd rather take my SA trickery DE build that can fire off less damaging but more consistent attacks, and that can survive for a time outside of stealth. Life leech does add up tho, it's the main reason condi DE works so well imo (tormenting runes plus skale venom on P/D, on top of SA regen and leech). It's hard to get that level of sustain on a power build without sacrificing too much tho. Hope you find a good build out of it somewhere ^^

 

I actually don't think it feels too different in action from before the update. Before, I put thought into boon theft lineup, like trying to get Bountiful to go off first for duration boons to open up and then get other sources like Rending Shade to come in after for stacks which in turn kept me up. Now I'm packing my attack to roll out in a way that compounds life steal sources but per my rule they all have to double up with something I'm already using in my core build that keeps me up anyway apart from just the heal. If there weren't enough sources that already fit that way, I'd just stay with boon steal and be frustrated at how shallow that is at the moment, not bad, just not the momentum flipper it was before for me.

[meowmeow.9125]

CS was significant for it's ability to facilitate malice management as it provided 100% crit chance on marauder/scholar rifle and MBS, plus you could pop up initial oneshots on marauder amu via binding shadow and AS, that was covered by lesser guaranteed burst via sigil of Agility to again improve crit chance and finish opened foe off

Now as like everything above mentioned was nerfed\deleted (and marauder stats was lessened too), as CS gives me only about 15% additional damage per strike (dont mess with overall), lesser boon uptime and no additional\improved mechanics comparing to Trickery (for e.g.1-2 more stolen skills for casting invis in every good 1v1 cause of marking cd reducing), see no reason not to pick the last one in PvP

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

 

So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

[FrownyClown.8402]

Has anyone ever thought about taking weapons and using them mainly for evades and using physical skills to do damage? Dont play thief much but just a thought

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAwiVlFw2YNMHGJeeTptdA-z5IWC2OA

[saerni.2584]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

>

> So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

 

In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

 

I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Like garbage, that's how it feels.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> >

> > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

>

> In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

>

> I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

 

I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> > >

> > > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

> >

> > In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

> >

> > I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

>

> I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

 

Makes sense thief's "brawler" spec would out brawl u. I bet ud destroy the DD in a ranged fight though.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> > > >

> > > > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

> > >

> > > In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

> > >

> > > I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

> >

> > I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

>

> Makes sense thief's "brawler" spec would out brawl u. I bet ud destroy the DD in a ranged fight though.

 

I did my best but this DD predicted my moves as if I fought her before. She evaded my 1k Needles, Binding Shadow and even Bolas shot. I was tapped out and can't keep her away from me. In other words, she outplayed me big time.

[kash.9213]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> > >

> > > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

> >

> > In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

> >

> > I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

>

> I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

 

I'm just not feeling M7 right now for similar reasons including line of site, I've bit it a few times this week trying to top off M7, maybe that'd be easier in spvp. Even if I didn't take Trickery I'd probably switch to it and take BQoBD of M7 and go back to my old pace and setups. I can't think of M7 as a replacement to Trickery only being able to work off our Marked target. Given, I've been dumb messing around with stuff on the move but I think whatever I was doing before the update still kind of works out the best.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> > > >

> > > > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

> > >

> > > In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

> > >

> > > I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

> >

> > I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

>

> I'm just not feeling M7 right now for similar reasons including line of site, I've bit it a few times this week trying to top off M7, maybe that'd be easier in spvp. Even if I didn't take Trickery I'd probably switch to it and take BQoBD of M7 and go back to my old pace and setups. I can't think of M7 as a replacement to Trickery only being able to work off our Marked target. Given, I've been dumb messing around with stuff on the move but I think whatever I was doing before the update still kind of works out the best.

 

M7 didn't work on DD due to their really good evade mechanic. But fighting other classes like DHs, FBs, and SpellBreakers...I can stack Malice fast enough even if they pop reflect and blocks -- I can just wait those out. Compare to DD, there's no waiting things out -- the longer you wait the more evades they get. Even if I picked BQoBK and running a power build, it will not give me an edge since this particular DD was able to predict my moves. It's not so much about builds or gears, it's about her good timing on evading my attacks.

 

EDIT: BTW, if I'm running a Power build with Trickery and BQoBK, I doubt I'd be able to bring her down to 10% health. She'll just evade everything.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> > > > >

> > > > > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

> > > >

> > > > In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

> > > >

> > > > I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

> > >

> > > I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

> >

> > Makes sense thief's "brawler" spec would out brawl u. I bet ud destroy the DD in a ranged fight though.

>

> I did my best but this DD predicted my moves as if I fought her before. She evaded my 1k Needles, Binding Shadow and even Bolas shot. I was tapped out and can't keep her away from me. In other words, she outplayed me big time.

 

Ahh haha man someone admitting they got out played is a rarity on these forums. At least with ur sensible take on the situation u are one of the few that probobly learn and get better from these situations. Most tell them selves they lost cuz the engagement was unwinnable due to the oppositions build/class and move on with zero attempts to learn from it. Props to u for that, hopefully Riga game doesn't ever strip u of that lol. My guess is she's one of the few that regardless of staffs viability through out its history commonly used it and now that it's in a good spot is very proficiently on it. Before the previous nerfs to bounding staff build I bet this players wrecked a lot of people lol

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

> > > > >

> > > > > In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

> > > >

> > > > I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

> > >

> > > Makes sense thief's "brawler" spec would out brawl u. I bet ud destroy the DD in a ranged fight though.

> >

> > I did my best but this DD predicted my moves as if I fought her before. She evaded my 1k Needles, Binding Shadow and even Bolas shot. I was tapped out and can't keep her away from me. In other words, she outplayed me big time.

>

> Ahh haha man someone admitting they got out played is a rarity on these forums. At least with ur sensible take on the situation u are one of the few that probobly learn and get better from these situations. Most tell them selves they lost cuz the engagement was unwinnable due to the oppositions build/class and move on with zero attempts to learn from it. Props to u for that, hopefully Riga game doesn't ever strip u of that lol. My guess is she's one of the few that regardless of staffs viability through out its history commonly used it and now that it's in a good spot is very proficiently on it. Before the previous nerfs to bounding staff build I bet this players wrecked a lot of people lol

 

Yeah it was a legit win for the DD. If she made a mistake, like failing to evade my Binding Shadow, I would have won -- but she's good. She took the damage she can take and evaded by big attacks. I don't see a lot of Staff DD in WvW, but this one is like finding a unicorn.

[kash.9213]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

> > > > >

> > > > > I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

> > > >

> > > > Makes sense thief's "brawler" spec would out brawl u. I bet ud destroy the DD in a ranged fight though.

> > >

> > > I did my best but this DD predicted my moves as if I fought her before. She evaded my 1k Needles, Binding Shadow and even Bolas shot. I was tapped out and can't keep her away from me. In other words, she outplayed me big time.

> >

> > Ahh haha man someone admitting they got out played is a rarity on these forums. At least with ur sensible take on the situation u are one of the few that probobly learn and get better from these situations. Most tell them selves they lost cuz the engagement was unwinnable due to the oppositions build/class and move on with zero attempts to learn from it. Props to u for that, hopefully Riga game doesn't ever strip u of that lol. My guess is she's one of the few that regardless of staffs viability through out its history commonly used it and now that it's in a good spot is very proficiently on it. Before the previous nerfs to bounding staff build I bet this players wrecked a lot of people lol

>

> Yeah it was a legit win for the DD. If she made a mistake, like failing to evade my Binding Shadow, I would have won -- but she's good. She took the damage she can take and evaded by big attacks. I don't see a lot of Staff DD in WvW, but this one is like finding a unicorn.

 

Our matchups never have many if any staff brawlers, but we get some vault snipers, they just do their thing fast and scramble though. They know generally they'll gas out to some cc and patience. That sounds like someone who's tuned into their keybind layout though, you'll need to get their instinct zeroed in on one thing while you're plotting another I guess. Condi p/p might be something that just lets their build do their thing to.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > I ran with my Condi-P/P build WvW last night and it seems that the Vault nerf didn't really do that much since it's still hitting me for 6k-7k. I lasted longer since Vault can no longer be chained 3 times due to the cost increase, but it still hurts and I lost the duel.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So my kill count last night while roaming in this build is: 2 DH, 1 SpellBreaker; and I died from a Staff DD and a LB SoulBeast.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In SPVP in a 2v2 I got random hit with a 12k vault.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’d add that CS is now potentially better than DA in a condi DE build (also adjusting to Swashbuckler amulet over Wizard for higher crit rate).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I believe that. I have 2.9k armor and still took 7k damage. Not to mention, he's evading all my counter measures. I brought her below 10% health but I just didn't manage to close the deal. I can't get M7 to trigger with all the evades. But I have to admit, it was fun -- pre-patch I would have died a lot sooner.

> > > > >

> > > > > Makes sense thief's "brawler" spec would out brawl u. I bet ud destroy the DD in a ranged fight though.

> > > >

> > > > I did my best but this DD predicted my moves as if I fought her before. She evaded my 1k Needles, Binding Shadow and even Bolas shot. I was tapped out and can't keep her away from me. In other words, she outplayed me big time.

> > >

> > > Ahh haha man someone admitting they got out played is a rarity on these forums. At least with ur sensible take on the situation u are one of the few that probobly learn and get better from these situations. Most tell them selves they lost cuz the engagement was unwinnable due to the oppositions build/class and move on with zero attempts to learn from it. Props to u for that, hopefully Riga game doesn't ever strip u of that lol. My guess is she's one of the few that regardless of staffs viability through out its history commonly used it and now that it's in a good spot is very proficiently on it. Before the previous nerfs to bounding staff build I bet this players wrecked a lot of people lol

> >

> > Yeah it was a legit win for the DD. If she made a mistake, like failing to evade my Binding Shadow, I would have won -- but she's good. She took the damage she can take and evaded by big attacks. I don't see a lot of Staff DD in WvW, but this one is like finding a unicorn.

>

> Our matchups never have many if any staff brawlers, but we get some vault snipers, they just do their thing fast and scramble though. They know generally they'll gas out to some cc and patience.

 

Exactly. Typically, any melee build will fall victim to my Condi P/P since I have tons of CCs and I have stealth to wait things out (i.e. blocks and reflect). I've kited DHs and Spellbreakers and they simply cannot out-heal and out-cleanse my damage.

 

> That sounds like someone who's tuned into their keybind layout though, you'll need to get their instinct zeroed in on one thing while you're plotting another I guess.

 

I wouldn't doubt it.

 

> Condi p/p might be something that just lets their build do their thing to.

 

If that is true, then I will be undefeated.