I'm pretty impressed with the Balance Changes. I only have one Gripe.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

I am actually pretty impressed with the balance changes in this previous patch.

 

This was probably the first time in a long time I actually felt like I stood a chance against another profession. And their insane access to the standard bullshit (Insane healing, absurd access to buffs, rediculous damage for little effort, heaps of cheap passives) felt more like brief hindrances, rather than me being thrown bodily into a spikey pit. And that my own damage was substantial enough to be able to fight threats confidently.

 

My only gripe is that the initiative costs have gotten far more ridiculous now. Which only adds into the frustration when we've constantly been harking on ANET about the init costs being way too high, and that almost every build requires Trickery in order to compete. Thus permanently locking off a skill tree that could have gone into some more interesting builds.

[Alatar.7364]

_"almost every build requires Trickery in order to complete"_

 

 

hehe, _"almost"_, hehe

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> I am actually pretty impressed with the balance changes in this previous patch.

>

> This was probably the first time in a long time I actually felt like I stood a chance against another profession. And their insane access to the standard kitten (Insane healing, absurd access to buffs, rediculous damage for little effort, heaps of cheap passives) felt more like brief hindrances, rather than me being thrown bodily into a spikey pit. And that my own damage was substantial enough to be able to fight threats confidently.

>

> My only gripe is that the initiative costs have gotten far more ridiculous now. Which only adds into the frustration when we've constantly been harking on ANET about the init costs being way too high, and that almost every build requires Trickery in order to compete. Thus permanently locking off a skill tree that could have gone into some more interesting builds.

 

Agreed and after so many thief players complaining about the classes reliance on preparedness the decide increasing ini costs is the way to go lol. That's anet for ya.

[bluri.2653]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> _"almost every build requires Trickery in order to complete"_

>

>

> hehe, _"almost"_, hehe

 

hehe.. almost is 100% if you want to compete at "high level" in sPVP

[Momekic.8603]

Agree on the needing Trickery comment of yours.

 

Its sad that ANet has pigeonholed us into needing Trickery, especially with the recent nerfs that increased initiative on skills (which wasn't needed because they nerfed the damage, so why nerf initiative too).

 

I personally dont like the patch yet, because I think condi damage is out of hand, and some classes still have too much sustain (insane healing as you put it), namely some specs for druid, sb, holo, and fb.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > _"almost every build requires Trickery in order to complete"_

> >

> >

> > hehe, _"almost"_, hehe

>

> hehe.. almost is 100% if you want to compete at "high level" in sPVP

 

Ur a crazy good player man but don't know how u do it. The thief has changed I don't know how u don't get so bored of the playstyle.

Dp stealth backstab---->HS repeat

Sd s2---->s3 spam repeat with some autos.

Staff vault--->bound with few weakening strikes in between.

Sp s2---->pw spam repeat with proper timing.

Dd what?

Just seems theifs playstyle has been extremely dumb down over the years to the point the kits get boring fast. Then again I'm no pro player and that's all subjective. Glad ur still playing tho.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> I am actually pretty impressed with the balance changes in this previous patch.

>

> This was probably the first time in a long time I actually felt like I stood a chance against another profession. And their insane access to the standard kitten (Insane healing, absurd access to buffs, rediculous damage for little effort, heaps of cheap passives) felt more like brief hindrances, rather than me being thrown bodily into a spikey pit. And that my own damage was substantial enough to be able to fight threats confidently.

>

> My only gripe is that the initiative costs have gotten far more ridiculous now. Which only adds into the frustration when we've constantly been harking on ANET about the init costs being way too high, and that almost every build requires Trickery in order to compete. Thus permanently locking off a skill tree that could have gone into some more interesting builds.

 

You can't possible have all good changes without the bad changes -- that won't be balance.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

i thought trickery was mainly picked for bountiful theft/slight of hand. ofc the extra 3 ini is a bonus but that was never the reason why I thought trickery was mandatory

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> i thought trickery was mainly picked for bountiful theft/slight of hand. ofc the extra 3 ini is a bonus but that was never the reason why I thought trickery was mandatory

 

Trickery is picked for different reasons actually. I personally only take it for the Trickster trait -- other traits like Lead Attacks are just bonus -- so it was mandatory for me in order to have easy access to cleanses. Ever since the changes to SA, Trickery is no longer mandatory for me. The +3 init is nice but only if you're running a spike/burst build.

[saerni.2584]

I have been playing around with using Trickery after a long time playing without it.

 

The biggest advantages are probably the initiative pool/gain on steal combined with the cooldown reduction on steal. But you also get boons/damage bonuses/interrupt. So it really performs well in a variety of situations.

 

DA and CS aren’t clearly good enough to replace Trickery because Trickery buffs core mechanics and still gives you damage/crit from Lead Attacks and Fury.

 

DA adds damage but not enough to make up for a lack of crit and utility. CS adds crit but doesn’t boost damage enough to make up for a lack of utility.

 

I think to make Trickery less overwhelmingly preferred, I’d add in initiative gain mechanics in other traitlines and replace the initiative on steal trait from Trickery. That way we get more pool from Trickery but aren’t able to refill it faster as well. We can also make initiative gain a cross traitline design so different kinds of gameplay can generate initiative. (Right now it is just weapon swap and steal that can generate initiative through traits).

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I have been playing around with using Trickery after a long time playing without it.

>

> The biggest advantages are probably the initiative pool/gain on steal combined with the cooldown reduction on steal. But you also get boons/damage bonuses/interrupt. So it really performs well in a variety of situations.

>

> DA and CS aren’t clearly good enough to replace Trickery because Trickery buffs core mechanics and still gives you damage/crit from Lead Attacks and Fury.

>

> DA adds damage but not enough to make up for a lack of crit and utility. CS adds crit but doesn’t boost damage enough to make up for a lack of utility.

>

> I think to make Trickery less overwhelmingly preferred, I’d add in initiative gain mechanics in other traitlines and replace the initiative on steal trait from Trickery. That way we get more pool from Trickery but aren’t able to refill it faster as well. We can also make initiative gain a cross traitline design so different kinds of gameplay can generate initiative. (Right now it is just weapon swap and steal that can generate initiative through traits).

 

SA can provide 1 ini every 3 secs as well but this is part of the issue right here as u have s trait that provides both healing and ini at such a insignificant rate it's near useless. I'd be better considering it's only when stealth'd if it gave 1 ini per 2 sec and increased ini regen out side of stealth by 30% and lose the healing. This would provide a substitute for preparedness thru a different avenue. I don't kno maybe the values are to high but u get the gist.

CS could have a trait that while under effects of fury u gain 1 extra ini during its regen so u gain two ini while under effects of fury or a increased regen rate. Anet has lots of options to unchain thief from trickery, increasing ini isn't one of them and they instead opted for that lol

[saerni.2584]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > I have been playing around with using Trickery after a long time playing without it.

> >

> > The biggest advantages are probably the initiative pool/gain on steal combined with the cooldown reduction on steal. But you also get boons/damage bonuses/interrupt. So it really performs well in a variety of situations.

> >

> > DA and CS aren’t clearly good enough to replace Trickery because Trickery buffs core mechanics and still gives you damage/crit from Lead Attacks and Fury.

> >

> > DA adds damage but not enough to make up for a lack of crit and utility. CS adds crit but doesn’t boost damage enough to make up for a lack of utility.

> >

> > I think to make Trickery less overwhelmingly preferred, I’d add in initiative gain mechanics in other traitlines and replace the initiative on steal trait from Trickery. That way we get more pool from Trickery but aren’t able to refill it faster as well. We can also make initiative gain a cross traitline design so different kinds of gameplay can generate initiative. (Right now it is just weapon swap and steal that can generate initiative through traits).

>

> SA can provide 1 ini every 3 secs as well but thos is part of the issue right hear as u have s trait that provides both healing and ini at such a insignificant rate it's near useless. I'd be better considering it's only when stealth'd if it gave 1 ini per 2 sec and increased ini regen out side of stealth by 30% and lose the healing. This would provide a substitute for preparedness thru a different avenue. I don't kno maybe the values are to high but u get the fist.

 

Yeah, I forgot to mention the in-stealth gain from SA’s GM.

 

My issue with that trait is how it boosts stealth camping (while not being all that strong even if you stealth camp).

 

The SA trait should boost initiative on landing stealth attacks (rewarding landing hits and weaving in and out of stealth). It should also heal on entering stealth but not pulsing and have a secondary cleanse mechanic that boosts survivability indirectly.

 

My idea would be:

* Landing a stealth attack grants 2 initiative.

* Entering stealth heals you (500) and removes vulnerability.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > I have been playing around with using Trickery after a long time playing without it.

> > >

> > > The biggest advantages are probably the initiative pool/gain on steal combined with the cooldown reduction on steal. But you also get boons/damage bonuses/interrupt. So it really performs well in a variety of situations.

> > >

> > > DA and CS aren’t clearly good enough to replace Trickery because Trickery buffs core mechanics and still gives you damage/crit from Lead Attacks and Fury.

> > >

> > > DA adds damage but not enough to make up for a lack of crit and utility. CS adds crit but doesn’t boost damage enough to make up for a lack of utility.

> > >

> > > I think to make Trickery less overwhelmingly preferred, I’d add in initiative gain mechanics in other traitlines and replace the initiative on steal trait from Trickery. That way we get more pool from Trickery but aren’t able to refill it faster as well. We can also make initiative gain a cross traitline design so different kinds of gameplay can generate initiative. (Right now it is just weapon swap and steal that can generate initiative through traits).

> >

> > SA can provide 1 ini every 3 secs as well but thos is part of the issue right hear as u have s trait that provides both healing and ini at such a insignificant rate it's near useless. I'd be better considering it's only when stealth'd if it gave 1 ini per 2 sec and increased ini regen out side of stealth by 30% and lose the healing. This would provide a substitute for preparedness thru a different avenue. I don't kno maybe the values are to high but u get the fist.

>

> Yeah, I forgot to mention the in-stealth gain from SA’s GM.

>

> My issue with that trait is how it boosts stealth camping (while not being all that strong even if you stealth camp).

>

> The SA trait should boost initiative on landing stealth attacks (rewarding landing hits and weaving in and out of stealth). It should also heal on entering stealth but not pulsing and have a secondary cleanse mechanic that boosts survivability indirectly.

>

> My idea would be:

> * Landing a stealth attack grants 2 initiative.

> * Entering stealth heals you (500) and removes vulnerability.

 

That could work as long as it had no icd, if it did I'd be in same spot the traits currently in as very insignificant.

Another idea is make preparedness baseline and replace with a lesser haste since its cd is so high thrill of the crimes always taken, usually anyway and replace LH slot with a trait that works for preparations cuz irc thief doesn't have one.

[kash.9213]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > I have been playing around with using Trickery after a long time playing without it.

> > >

> > > The biggest advantages are probably the initiative pool/gain on steal combined with the cooldown reduction on steal. But you also get boons/damage bonuses/interrupt. So it really performs well in a variety of situations.

> > >

> > > DA and CS aren’t clearly good enough to replace Trickery because Trickery buffs core mechanics and still gives you damage/crit from Lead Attacks and Fury.

> > >

> > > DA adds damage but not enough to make up for a lack of crit and utility. CS adds crit but doesn’t boost damage enough to make up for a lack of utility.

> > >

> > > I think to make Trickery less overwhelmingly preferred, I’d add in initiative gain mechanics in other traitlines and replace the initiative on steal trait from Trickery. That way we get more pool from Trickery but aren’t able to refill it faster as well. We can also make initiative gain a cross traitline design so different kinds of gameplay can generate initiative. (Right now it is just weapon swap and steal that can generate initiative through traits).

> >

> > SA can provide 1 ini every 3 secs as well but thos is part of the issue right hear as u have s trait that provides both healing and ini at such a insignificant rate it's near useless. I'd be better considering it's only when stealth'd if it gave 1 ini per 2 sec and increased ini regen out side of stealth by 30% and lose the healing. This would provide a substitute for preparedness thru a different avenue. I don't kno maybe the values are to high but u get the fist.

>

> Yeah, I forgot to mention the in-stealth gain from SA’s GM.

>

> My issue with that trait is how it boosts stealth camping (while not being all that strong even if you stealth camp).

>

> The SA trait should boost initiative on landing stealth attacks (rewarding landing hits and weaving in and out of stealth). It should also heal on entering stealth but not pulsing and have a secondary cleanse mechanic that boosts survivability indirectly.

>

> My idea would be:

> * Landing a stealth attack grants 2 initiative.

> * **Entering stealth heals you (500) and removes vulnerability**.

 

I really like the idea of replenishing slowly by being proficient and especially with initiative management being even more tampered down recently.

 

That's a big heal though for what can be nearly spammable in bursts, and removing vulnerability along with that large of a heal would shut down some burst openers that rightfully pressure me right now.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I think to make Trickery less overwhelmingly preferred, I’d add in initiative gain mechanics in other traitlines and replace the initiative on steal trait from Trickery. That way we get more pool from Trickery but aren’t able to refill it faster as well. We can also make initiative gain a cross traitline design so different kinds of gameplay can generate initiative. (Right now it is just weapon swap and steal that can generate initiative through traits).

 

There used to be a trait in CS that replenishes initiatives per crit hits (Opportunist), but they removed it, which cause the builds to gravitate towards Trickery as the only reliable initiative replenishing traitline.

 

My first P/P build uses Ricochet and Opportunist and you can imagine the massive initiatives I can gain per Unload when each bouncing bullets crits. I used to shred a group of Warriors and Guardians with just the Unload since I practically don't ran out of bullets. Now Unload can replenish initiatives but it can easily be denied.

[Fueki.4753]

Thieves complaining about Initiative costs...

At least you have more resource freedom than Revenants, less costs **and** you get to start with 100%.

[saerni.2584]

@"kash.9213" I don’t think it’s too spamable. You get one heal on entering stealth (not applying stealth).

 

@"Fueki.4753" If the complaint about thief is spamming attacks and the solution is to raise initiative costs significantly then thief needs a way to regenerate initiative more effectively through gameplay. It makes thief less able to spam and also gives thief an opportunity to use all of its skills without needing to take the only traitline with both significant initiative regen and baseline pool built in.

 

The baseline pool of 12 is laughable when weapon sets have 16-20 combined cost on all skills. Other people can use all weapon skills on cooldown. Initiative works differently so regenerative initiative traits would help bridge the gap a little.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Thieves complaining about Initiative costs...

> At least you have more resource freedom than Revenants, less costs **and** you get to start with 100%.

 

Revenant gets to start with 100%, otherwise all your skills will be on cooldown at the start of combat.

 

EDIT: Thief's skills, on the other hand, are put in cooldown even if we didn't use it just because we ran out of initiatives.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Revenant gets to start with 100%, otherwise all your skills will be on cooldown at the start of combat.

I don't know which traits you use, but I haven't seen a trait that allows me to start with 100 Energy instead of 50.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > Revenant gets to start with 100%, otherwise all your skills will be on cooldown at the start of combat.

> I don't know which traits you use, but I haven't seen a trait that allows me to start with 100 Energy instead of 50.

 

Um the energy regen pretty fast if u dont have upkeep skills running and also completely refills on leg swap if traited no?

[kash.9213]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> @"kash.9213" I don’t think it’s too spamable. You get one heal on entering stealth (not applying stealth).

>

> @"Fueki.4753" If the complaint about thief is spamming attacks and the solution is to raise initiative costs significantly then thief needs a way to regenerate initiative more effectively through gameplay. It makes thief less able to spam and also gives thief an opportunity to use all of its skills without needing to take the only traitline with both significant initiative regen and baseline pool built in.

>

> The baseline pool of 12 is laughable when weapon sets have 16-20 combined cost on all skills. Other people can use all weapon skills on cooldown. Initiative works differently so regenerative initiative traits would help bridge the gap a little.

 

I'm probably understanding it wrong, I was thinking about hitting someone with a fast Death's Judgement and quickly Shadow Meld heal, Dj, Shadow Meld heal a couple of times. That would be a legit vampire build with other leech/siphoning but I'm likely missing a step and just wishful thinking.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > Revenant gets to start with 100%, otherwise all your skills will be on cooldown at the start of combat.

> I don't know which traits you use, but I haven't seen a trait that allows me to start with 100 Energy instead of 50.

 

You get 50% per legend. So it's 100%.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Thieves complaining about Initiative costs...

> At least you have more resource freedom than Revenants, less costs **and** you get to start with 100%.

 

Less freedom actually. More costs, and no way of just swapping legends to fully refill. Like hell, most of Revenants weapon skills have cost of 12-15. The thief equivalent of that would be 2 initiative. Thief has *no* skill that costs less than 3 initiative that isnt kneel or a follow-up skill. Which is to say nothing of the speed of regeneration.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > Thieves complaining about Initiative costs...

> > At least you have more resource freedom than Revenants, less costs **and** you get to start with 100%.

>

> Less freedom actually. More costs, and no way of just swapping legends to fully refill. Like hell, most of Revenants weapon skills have cost of 12-15. The thief equivalent of that would be 2 initiative. Thief has *no* skill that costs less than 3 initiative that isnt kneel or a follow-up skill. Which is to say nothing of the speed of regeneration.

 

You have no CDs on weapon skills and no Initiative costs on Utility skills.

And then you have multiple skills to regain Initiative, like Roll for Initiative or Mercy.

That's more freedom than Revenants, as they have both CDs and Energy costs on Weapon skills, utility skills and their F2-4 mechanics.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > Thieves complaining about Initiative costs...

> > > At least you have more resource freedom than Revenants, less costs **and** you get to start with 100%.

> >

> > Less freedom actually. More costs, and no way of just swapping legends to fully refill. Like hell, most of Revenants weapon skills have cost of 12-15. The thief equivalent of that would be 2 initiative. Thief has *no* skill that costs less than 3 initiative that isnt kneel or a follow-up skill. Which is to say nothing of the speed of regeneration.

>

> You have no CDs on weapon skills and no Initiative costs on Utility skills.

> And then you have multiple skills to regain Initiative, like Roll for Initiative or Mercy.

> That's more freedom than Revenants, as they have both CDs and Energy costs on Weapon skills, utility skills and their F2-4 mechanics.

 

Outside of rev no one has anything other than cooldowns for utilities. And revs get two sets of utilities so...apples and oranges.

 

Those multiple skills to regain initiative are not ones you use for that purpose. Their main advantage is a stunbreak or retarget. Yes they increase initiative but that is secondary to their main benefits.