Toughness in WvW

[Malsheem.1794]

Hi

 

So, for a couple of weeks i was trying out DH with Marauder stats and got hit rather hard by zerker builds. I then swapped back to my main (scourge) and decided to tryout a "large amount of toughess"- build. I'm just using exotics atm, but I got 2434 Toughness (3354 Armor) and yet, I still get hit just as hard for certain abilities ? A heavy Armor class have better base resistance, but I still think the damage is insanely high vs such defensive stats:

 

[i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j472/kroenen2/warrior%20cens.jpg](http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j472/kroenen2/warrior%20cens.jpg)

 

Got me wondering if Toughness is working as intended atm ? - or is this "normal" ? If thats normal, i cannot imagine how much damage it would have been with vitality only. Also, i'm not a "math guy" so i havent looked up any formulas :)

 

**This is NOT a complaint about Warriors.**

 

 

[LetoII.3782]

Toughness is a baseline. It should be compounded with things like protection, or in scourges case barrier, if you want to facetank

[Justine.6351]

Toughness is meant to take the edge off hits not negate all damage.

 

Hard hitting skills should still hit hard, just not as hard. Otherwise everyone would just stack 3-3.5k armor and be unkillable.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Toughness is not useful unless you are maxing it out, using protection, and other damage mitigations.

 

Your better off rolling PVF gear and finding ways to increase crit chance without perception.

 

Reaper and Guardian can do this well, although for guardian VTC gear or PVC gear would be better.

[Virdo.1540]

ive heard from a random source (i forgot about) that toughness doesnt get counted in to dmg-calculations that much if you are stunned when being it

 

 

[God.2708]

I am curious as to what you think is a reasonable amount of damage. He hit you 4 times with basically an 'all in' that should it fail leaves him pretty open, and it chunked you for only ~60% of your life from all four hits in total. Any class that wasn't stacking toughness would have died from 2 or 3 of those hits. You could have taken another 3 maybe 4 of them but the damage is 'insanely high'?

[Malsheem.1794]

I am in no way trying to say Toughness should reduce all damage and im not trying to facetank either. What made we wonder was the scenario, that on a character without a single point into toughness (my guard), numbers showed aprox the same.

 

But i guess i got my answer - "this is normal" :)

 

Thx.

[subversiontwo.7501]

**Quick disclaimer:**

I'm not a math guy, I just want to give a bit of an overview and a simplified reference point. I take no pride in this so if someone wants to set it straight and offer a better explanation, feel free to do it. Rounded off figures are rounded off figures, you can only do generalisations as many times before they become misrepresentative. The reference here is meant to be representative as an overview but depending on how important you consider details to be you may regard the rounding and generalisation to be too much.

 

**Quick legend:**

Armor Rating (AR) = simple addition of Defense Rating (Armor stat on Armor items and Shield) + Toughness

Base AR = approximately 2000, based upon cloth armor defense (77+77+330+140+204+140=968) and character L80 base toughness 1000.

Final AR = what can be seen ingame by hovering your stats or when using GW2skills etc., your AR after toughness gear has been applied

Skill-specific coefficient (Cx) = a number of 1.0 to 3.0 attributed to different skills.

Damage reduction (DR) = a percentage value (%) of reduced damage that can be derived from AR or directly from certain boons (protection) and effects (food, runes, traits etc.).

 

**Wiki equation:**

Damage taken = (Opponent's weapon strength) * Opponent's Power * (Opponent's skill-specific coefficient) / AR

 

**Example:**

Ascended greatsword (1,045 – 1,155) random draw inbetween, avg. 1100

Arcing slice (Cx. 1,213) [before patch 1,32]

Power - a Warrior/Berserker can peak out around 4300 power and reach 3000 power even before might

 

**So**

(1100 x 4300 x 1,213 = ~5737500) / (2000) = ~2900 base dmg vs. 2k AR

(1100 x 4300 x 1,213 = ~5737500) / (2500) = ~2300 base dmg vs. 2.5k AR (~20% DR)

(1100 x 4300 x 1,213 = ~5737500) / (3000) = ~1900 base dmg vs. 3k AR (~33% DR)

(1100 x 4300 x 1,213 = ~5737500) / (3500) = ~1600 base dmg vs, 3.5k AR (~50% DR)

 

**Perspective:**

Despite rounding, generalisation and different Cx for different skills it should give you a ballpark reference point (the 50% DR may be 43% or 47% depending on skill used, power pumped etc.). Give and take a few and the protection boon is about as valuable as +1000 AR. The same goes for eg., DR food + DR runes + a 10-15% DR trait. That lets you understand 3 types of DR tanks: AR-DR, Boon-DR and straight DR. You can build around one and know what to roughly expect from it or you can combine them for a significant difference.

 

Exactly how that later stacks is not public knowledge, to my knowledge, but considering how each layer is built on a versus, it wouldn't surprise if the system is just additive in layers cancelling each other out - gear vs. gear, boon vs. boon, effect vs. effect. The DR from gear is just derivative anyway so it doesn't need to stack with any other system directly. You get your active figure and then that is filtered in +/- in a boon layer and an effect layer. That's my assumption based on the design of the equations that are public and how it feels that things stack looking at the end results. It can be that simple.

 

That's usually how I approach things from an overview, a general perspective, and if I then want to look at something specific in detail, well, then I look at that specific thing more in detail. I rarely (never) look at math in outmost detail and then try to conclude things in the complexity of a broader context. I've come to learn that there are very few people who have the ability to both calculate math and extrapolate math in a meaningful (ie., tactical) way when it comes to computer games. There are good players who can do either, most players can do neither.

 

**End note:**

This obviously does not take other dmg% and crit% into account. A Strength/Discipline/Berserker Warrior can rack up +100% dmg on Slices without too much hassle (20% from Berserker, 36% from Strength, 10-15% from runes and sigils, 14% from Discipline and an additional 3% per boon from Discipline so 0-30%) and then modify that with 250% guaranteed crit. Resulting, even against your ~3.5k AR, in something that still has the potential to crit you for 10k. Then we also have Vuln conditions of 0-25% which is often a large contributor when you catch some damage that looks surprisingly large. Overall, damage modifiers and crit modifiers make up such a large portion of the damage these days that things are still going to be different from a vanilla and be a bit more volatile (traits/effects vs. stats).

 

**Patch pointer:**

This also means that there are multiple skills in the game that can oneshot glassy builds. The difference before and after the patch is that they generally do not oneshot people several times over so adding a fair chunk of DR actually has some tangible value and to actually do pull off a oneshot alot of things have to align at once. I have a feeling that this was an unspoken goal for the changes. You'd have to get Ben or Cal to verify that though.

 

I just don't think that there is a coincidence that an extreme of a big-hit type of skill, full might stacks, purpose-built traits and gear and full vuln debuffs align with the total HP of the least tanky builds imaginable. That make few-shot burst still possible but not likely and gives you a spectrum between no HP and all HP within some sensible range (~1-20k). The old modifiers had the issue of killing people several times over and that was never intended. It made many ways to tank pointless and made far too many skills or situations with common combinations that shouldn't oneshot be able to oneshot. Now it is still possible in theory but every available modifier have to synch up to achieve it (or at least a notable majority in the case of 2k AR / 13k HP builds).

 

**Ed. A list of some common big-hit skills (Cx)**

Backstab 1.8 (used to be 2.4)

Vault 1.82 (used to be 2.25)

Maul 1.36 (dropped from 1.75 to 1.5 to 1.36)

Trueshot 1.91 (used to be 2.44)

Gravedigger 1.82 (used to be 3.0)

Phase smash 1.36 (used to be 1.75)

Plasma blast 1.66 (no listed change on the Wiki)

Wiki has nothing new on Putrid mark (1.32) or Spinal shivers (2.265) for competetive either.

I'm too lazy to go find Cal's post now :bleep_bloop:

 

 

 

 

 

[Woop S.7851]

> @"Malsheem.1794" said:

> Got me wondering if Toughness is working as intended atm ? - or is this "normal" ? If thats normal, i cannot imagine how much damage it would have been with vitality only. Also, i'm not a "math guy" so i havent looked up any formulas :)

 

No worries, calculation can be found here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness

- The general rule is that Ferocity increases damage by percentage (up to 200+ percent)

- Weapon damage multiplies power damage in the calculation: 100 x 100 = 10,000, then x ferocity (multiplied again)

- Precision increases chance for you to "trigger" Ferocity's extra damage

- Calculation is not directly applied in terms of plus/minus mathematical operations

- Ways to actually increase your defense would be to fully reduce incoming damage first (I know it sounds strange), but only then can toughness work

 

 

For example: [Protection boon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protection) has -33% damage reduction, certain [foods](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage#Consumables_that_reduce_incoming_damage) give 10% damage reduction, the guardian skill [signet of judgement](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Judgment) gives 10% damage reduction

- Math: 33 + 10 + 10 roughly = 53% damage reduced (however it's unconfirmed if this works additively due to mechanics)

- Meaning incoming damage (external) reaches you, the 53% reduction triggers first, only after would your toughness numbers kick in

- this is why certain overpowered builds can do crazy damage to you since power buffs are all **"multiplied"** using percentages, yet food or trait calculation %percentages multiplies the incoming external damage, leaving your armor or toughness aside.

 

_Just looking at percentages, ferocity can multiply up to 200% or more, yet with all traits/prot boon/food, maximum you'd reach is around 50% incoming damage reduction, just from this you can see why higher toughness won't work at times_

 

Sometimes I like to mess around with the numbers, taking every trait/signet, maxing out toughness for all gear just to see how far it can go, bunker healer wise it works to a certain extent due to self-healing, but remember the 33% damage reduce from protection boon can be ripped anytime, the only mechanic to counter 200% plus damage would be [weakness condition](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weakness) which has a chance for enemy to hit -50%, can look into that and test.

 

Hope that makes sense :)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

in short, this games damage system was designed for pve and is further complicated by the amount of buffs.

[Dawdler.8521]

Ah yes...

 

When discussing condi, the reason its OP always seem to be that its due to the toughness in trailblazers making you too tanky.

When discussing toughness, the answer is always that it does very little on its own.

And somehow this is supposed to make sense.

 

Either way, the simple answer is that toughness merely flatten the curve a bit. Other things such as skills and boons vastly "outpower" it when it comes to actually surviving. I personally prefer around 1600-1800 compared to running no toughness, but it wont help you that much in combat unless you also build for sustain. Glass cannons still do a ton of damage to punch over it and condi just go straight through it, a well balanced build will essentially ignore it when you look at just the percentages. There is a reason why a soulbeast you do 1/5th the normal damage on is called a boonbeast, not a toughnessbeast.

[Infusion.7149]

Warrior used a **melee range** burst skill that requires building adrenaline and hits you for less than 5k and there's a thread about it?

 

What's busted is condi builds doing as much damage as they are doing at range with trailblazer's while 3K+ armor , keep in mind the balance changes had PvP in mind where there's no trailblazer amulet. The only thing keeping them in check right now is scrapper + tempest.

 

Going from 2271 Armor rating (marauder DH you mentioned) to 3354 armor is about a third reduction in damage regardless of skill's damage coefficient.

 

If you look at the damage calculation

Damage taken = (weapon strength) * Effective Power * (skill damage coefficient) / Armor Rating

Effective Power = (Power + additive modifiers from traits and skills) * Ferocity % * multiplicative damage modifier traits * sigils * rune bonuses

 

Damage taken by DH = (weapon strength * Effective Power) * (skill damage coefficient) / 2271 Armor Rating

Damage taken by Scourge = (weapon strength * Effective Power) * (skill damage coefficient) / 3354 Armor Rating

 

_Ex. Vault thief without considering Lead attacks or other traits:_

1100 weapon strength * 5355 power on critical * 1.82 / 2271 armor rating * (105%) sigil of force = 4957

Add in 15% bounding dodger, you're looking at ~ 5.7K

Add in 15% lead attacks ~ 6.6K

 

With food + utility (~6K power critical hit) it's more akin to 5.5K damage before traits and ~7K with traits

 

Against your scourge 1100 weapon strength * 5355 power on critical * 1.82 /3354 armor rating * (105%) sigil of force = 3356

Add in 15% bounding dodger, you're looking at < 3.9K

Add in 15% lead attacks ~ 4.4K

 

_Ex. Arcing slice on spellbreaker with no boons ripped for attacker's insight with ~6K power on crit and vs <50% HP:_

1100 average weapon strength * 5953 power on critical * 1.82 / 2271 armor rating * 105% sigil of force = 5.5K damage vs DH

 

Against scourge

1100 average weapon strength * 5953 power on critical * 1.82 / 3354 armor rating * 105% sigil of force = 3.7K damage vs scourge

 

Damage taken by scourge vs DH = 2271 / 3354 = ~67.7% in both cases

 

 

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Just dont stack thoughness endlessly.

More then 3k is a waste of stats.

 

We survived in a meta with way higher bursts then now.

 

Your stats alone should not let you survive, your stats + skill should.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

A few weeks back there was a thread and ppl were commenting things like "guardian wars 2", "necro wars" etc.

Can't find this thread or it was deleted by a mod.

I had commented on something like "berserker arc divider wars 2".

So 2 variations of this build hits really hard in melee bomb.

Others will pick up on this soon.

[Sylosi.6503]

Redacted .

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Woop S.7851" said:

> - this is why certain overpowered builds can do crazy damage to you since power buffs are all **"multiplied"** using percentages, yet food or trait calculation %percentages multiplies the incoming external damage, leaving your armor or toughness aside.

 

I still have to wonder if this entire patch could have been skipped if they had just changed that logic right there and made it a straight up one time percentage instead of having the compounding effect.

 

[KrHome.1920]

Toughness on scourge is important because it has to soak up a lot of damage. On reaper it has been important pre balance patch but costs too much offense now, so that you better go for marauder or even berserk - otherwise you will get outsustained (yes, lot's of people say reaper defense got buffed, but they have no clue, the more time you need to kill the more the life force managment becomes a problem). Then there is this useless core necro troll build, that benefits from toughness but can't kill anything, so I am ignoring that here.

 

For every class that has unlimited damage mitigation (blocks, evades, instant-teleports...) toughness is wasted offensive potential. For dragonhunter marauder is clearly the best and you should simply improve the usage of your blocks and leaps if you feel too squishy.

 

**Side Note:** Ascended gear makes a difference - like with the reaper thing lots of people will say it makes no difference, but also at this point they have no clue. You deal 10% more damage and have 10% more sustain compared to exotic. That's significant!

 

**Math:** It's simple. Just compare the base armor of your class with your armor after you eqipped the toughness gear.

E.g. your base armor is 2000 and your toughness build has 2500 armor

Then: 2000 / 2500 = 0,8 = 80%. This means 20% direct damage mitigation by that additional 500 armor

 

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> **Example:**

> Ascended greatsword (1,045 – 1,155) random draw inbetween, avg. 1100

> Arcing slice (Cx. 1,213) [before patch 1,32]

> Power - a Warrior/Berserker can peak out around 4300 power and reach 3000 power even before might

>

> **So**

> (1100 x 4300 x 1,213 = ~5737500) / (2000) = ~2900 base dmg vs. 2k AR

> (1100 x 4300 x 1,213 = ~5737500) / (2500) = ~2300 base dmg vs. 2.5k AR (~20% DR)

> (1100 x 4300 x 1,213 = ~5737500) / (3000) = ~1900 base dmg vs. 3k AR (~33% DR)

> (1100 x 4300 x 1,213 = ~5737500) / (3500) = ~1600 base dmg vs, 3.5k AR (~50% DR)

For the same results you can ignore the whole power stuff and just compare the armor numbers (because the whole formula is a multiplication).

[Malsheem.1794]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Warrior used a **melee range** burst skill that requires building adrenaline and hits you for less than 5k and there's a thread about it?

>

> Going from 2271 toughness (marauder DH you mentioned) to 3354 armor is about a third reduction in damage regardless of skill's damage coefficient.

>

 

Some people only read what they want to read. I litterally stated that this wasnt about Warrior but more about how toughness works.

 

Also, why would my Marauder-DH have 2271 toughness with marauder stats? Didnt state that at all. It had Marauder, so not a single toughness bonus. And i went from zero toughness to ALOT (2434) and it didnt look like i changed anything on the numbers. THAT was my point and the reason i was asking about how it works.

 

Anyways, thx for all the answers

[Infusion.7149]

Marauder DH has 2271 armor rating

Scourge has 1967 armor rating without toughness from armor

 

Your question is "is it normal to get hit hard" and the screenshot has a 3K hit.

 

If it was 8K+ then that's "hit hard"...

[ArchonWing.9480]

We generally prefer marauder on DH because of their low base health. Toughness means nothing against condis and with 11k health you may just melt. Stacking both toughness and vitality would mean something like pvt and that probably won't kill anything. So in reality there isn't much choice.

 

A good compromise is to run durability runes, though. To properly play guardian, you need to use your blocks and such to mitigate damage. There is just no way to facetank those bursts. I don't know what you were running, but if you were running radiance, don't do it for now.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAMx7lVwAZfsG2IeUXatNA-zRJYkRNfhEZCkZI0bF4wA-e

[Malsheem.1794]

No.

 

The question wasnt: "is it normal to get hit hard". The question was: "is it normal to get hit THIS hard with 3354 armor".

 

 

 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

I thought we already established that it was. I'm just explaining why toughness is usually not recommended on power DH.

[Malsheem.1794]

Yeah, my post regarding "question" was meant towards Infusion.7149. My bad for not quoting.

 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

Same, was not quoting but I'd like to also say that this depends on class too. Some classes (especially those with high base health) are naturally going to see much more use of toughness)

 

I just didn't want you to get misled on why toughness is sometimes used. The low base health of guardian is just why vitality means much more. (in addition to natural damage mitigation and higher base armor)

[Malsheem.1794]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> We generally prefer marauder on DH because of their low base health. Toughness means nothing against condis and with 11k health you may just melt. Stacking both toughness and vitality would mean something like pvt and that probably won't kill anything. So in reality there isn't much choice.

>

> A good compromise is to run durability runes, though. To properly play guardian, you need to use your blocks and such to mitigate damage. There is just no way to facetank those bursts. I don't know what you were running, but if you were running radiance, don't do it for now.

>

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAMx7lVwAZfsG2IeUXatNA-zRJYkRNfhEZCkZI0bF4wA-e

 

I wasnt running any thoughness on my DH - which was kind of the point as i found damage numbers vs none-toughenss-DH and high-toughness-scourge to be pretty much the same. Which is why i came to the forum to ask about how toughness works - or if it did work ;)