Node distribution and economy balance

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ardent Heretic.8216" said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > I mean 1 onion is worth more than 1 gold ore in Tyria.

>

> Economically speaking, this makes perfect sense within the rules of the world we're presented with. Gold is not as rare in Tyria. It an be found by many people in many areas and "grows" back within a day. These onions cannot be farmed the way they are on Earth, and they are found in much the same way gold is, but they are found fewer places with less consistency (as each node _might_ have a single onion rather than a guarantee of three ore). This relative scarcity is a large part of what drives the market value.

 

Not quite, seeing as the value is still counted in copper, silver and gold. What is inconsistent here, is that gold (ore) is worth far less than gold (currency). And on a scale that can't really be explained by ore impurity.

[Ardent Heretic.8216]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @"Ardent Heretic.8216" said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > I mean 1 onion is worth more than 1 gold ore in Tyria.

> >

> > Economically speaking, this makes perfect sense within the rules of the world we're presented with. Gold is not as rare in Tyria. It an be found by many people in many areas and "grows" back within a day. These onions cannot be farmed the way they are on Earth, and they are found in much the same way gold is, but they are found fewer places with less consistency (as each node _might_ have a single onion rather than a guarantee of three ore). This relative scarcity is a large part of what drives the market value.

>

> Not quite, seeing as the value is still counted in copper, silver and gold. What is inconsistent here, is that gold (ore) is worth far less than gold (currency). And on a scale that can't really be explained by ore impurity.

 

The same is true of real-world currency. Bills and coins are worth significantly more than the resources used to make them. Currency has imbued value. There is a reason we cannot blacksmith gold ore into gold currency.

 

Edit: Also, when you think of it, this implies that Evan (Evon?) Gnashblade mints his own coins which we all use, lol.

[Svarty.8019]

> @Tekoneiric.6817 said:

> One thing that has never made sense to me in the game is how they do the material and nodes. The devs keep doing the same thing over and over with new maps; only putting mithril, ori, elderwood and ancient wood nodes on them along with a few plant nodes.

>

> Iron is one of the most abundant metals in the universe yet in GW2 it's almost rare.

 

I will give you this gift. Enjoy.

 

RICH IRON

For copy/pasting:

[&BP0BAAA=][&BGMAAAA=][&BF4BAAA=][&BF0CAAA=][&BEsBAAA=][&BKsAAAA=][&BFEGAAA=][&BMAAAAA=]

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Ore_(node)

 

Rich Iron Nodes explained:[&BP0BAAA=] - Guaranteed Rich Vein in the Behem Gauntlet Jumping Puzzle, on the ledge below and north of the chest

[&BGMAAAA=] - Guaranteed Rich Vein southwest of Gallowfields Waypoint on a high ledge

[&BF4BAAA=] - Guaranteed Rich Vein southeast of the Silex Castrum POI.

[&BF0CAAA=] - Guaranteed Rich Vein in the cave just north of the Kolkorensburg heart which is to the west of the waypoint. When inside the cave, the Rich Iron node is west of the Bergtrolde POI, guarded by a Veteran Cave Spider

[&BEsBAAA=] - Guaranteed Rich Vein up on the hill south of Helliot Mine Waypoint

[&BKsAAAA=] - Guaranteed Rich Vein directly northeast of the Martyr's Tomb POI

[&BFEGAAA=] - Guaranteed Rich Vein between the skill point and the Skritt Hill POI on a high ledge

[&BMAAAAA=] - Guaranteed Rich Vein south of the Snowhawk Landing Waypoint in a bear cave north of the "Reaver's Dale" text on the map

 

[Tekoneiric.6817]

People seem to be missing the point. It's not about the iron or other materials but the ratio of maps with specific materials is getting way out of balance. Maybe they need to come up with new metals and woods for new recipes. Things like Enchanted Wood some kind of magical metal.

[Zeivu.3615]

Iron isn't rare in this game, it just has way too much usage in ascended crafting. You need, what? 60 to craft Deldrimor Steel?

[Obtena.7952]

OP, your expectations for realism are far too high. MMO's are not for 'teaching' people.

 

I see no problem with the ratio of maps ... that argument assumes there are not enough maps for a player to gather the materials they need in a 'reasonable' gaming session. The fact is that there are more than enough maps for every kind of material you can gather ... and if that's still not enough for you, the ever present and INTENTIONAL trading post; do not forget that this whole game and it's business case revolves around people using that TP. Any suggestion that will diminish this fact is a non-starter.

[Seera.5916]

It's to give new players who are in need of gold and leveling up characters in core Tyria something to sell to players who have money.

[Swagger.1459]

> @Tekoneiric.6817 said:

> One thing that has never made sense to me in the game is how they do the material and nodes. The devs keep doing the same thing over and over with new maps; only putting mithril, ori, elderwood and ancient wood nodes on them along with a few plant nodes.

>

> Iron is one of the most abundant metals in the universe yet in GW2 it's almost rare. Mithril and ori should be way more rare than it is. Their over abundance along with elderwood has crashed their price on the TP. Of course orichalcum is an alloy not a element so there shouldn't be nodes for it. It should be crafted and salvaged not mined.

>

> One thing that bugs me is getting hardwood from pine. Whoever thought of that one needs to study dendrology or even carpentry. If they wanted to rebalance the economy they could easily do it by correcting distribution of nodes throughout the maps.

 

GW2 is a fantasy (made up) online universe, so why are you even attempting to make comparisons?

 

Node placement is obviously fine. If you seek particular mats you can visit the appropriate maps.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @Tekoneiric.6817 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > You really shouldn't try to stick to this line of argument about Tyria not properly relating to the real world. It's nonsensical in the context of a fictional world as well as a video game.

> >

> > It would make more sense to stick to the argument that maybe it would be good to have more than just mithril and ori nodes get added in new maps as far as economic balance is concerned. That's something that can get disscussed at least.

> >

> > Your subjective expectations of how Tyria should be will ultimately always differ with how other people feel about it. There is no point in debating subjective expectations.

>

> It may be fictional but there is always time to teach, even passively.

>

> As far as the world balance; given how many maps have been added to the game in the over the last year and a few months I would expect as many would be added with LWS4 and the next expansion. Are they all going to include only mithril, orichalcum, elderwood and ancient wood? There are 18 maps that have them exclusively and Mount Maelstrom has a mix. Add an estimated 11 more for LWS4 and the next expansion; that's 29 maps with just those on it. How long before that really starts cutting into the game economy?

 

There's a time to teach and then there's not a time to teach, a fantasy game set in another world and universe is not really the time to teach, they make teaching games for a reason...to allow the other games to be entertainment. As for Orichalcum, there's another theory out there that it was a type of copper, not an alloy but an entirely different form of "copper" and since we don't know really know how it was made or where it came from it's quite conceivable that it was an actual ore, just so rare and in only one place on earth that it no longer exists.

[Coulter.2315]

I think putting a few nodes of different levels in high level maps could be good.

 

You would feel like a god in that wind chamber, I don't think I'd ever get out.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @Zaron.1987 said:

> > @Tekoneiric.6817 said:

> > My partner also reminded me about the plants nodes growing on icebergs in Frostgorge Sound which would not happen.

>

> We are also riding on big bunnies and wearing almost nothing while fight big creatures.

>

>

> Its a Fantasy Game!

 

Speak for yourself. I'm clothed decently with some vital parts covered for the most part.

[Gudy.3607]

> @Zeivu.3615 said:

> Iron isn't rare in this game, it just has way too much usage in ascended crafting. You need, what? 60 to craft Deldrimor Steel?

 

90, actually: 60 for the iron ingots, another 30 for the steel ingots.

 

My preferred adjustment would be to convert about half of the silver ore nodes in the game into iron nodes - every time I run around those low level maps on an iron mining tour, I pass by those worthless silver ore nodes and think "damn, this could have been another iron node..."

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

 

> A game's purpose isn't to educate but to entertain.

 

In my opinion you make a mistake here. In the entire mammals world, the games are the "tool" used by the young to **learn** the skills and abilities needed in the adult life. For these beings **the game** has only educational reasons.

For humans the thinks are almost the same. Can you tell me how much entertainment can have a child of 3-4 years by playing a "math" game? They can be interested in "playing" but I don't know if at that age the term "entertainment" has any meaning. They **learn** by playing. And this makes a game a very powerful tool for **educating**.

A lot of the things you learn at a very young age are learned through "playing".

 

But, back at the topic, I agree with what Cyninja said:

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

 

> It would make more sense to stick to the argument that maybe it would be good to have more than just mithril and ori nodes get added in new maps as far as economic balance is concerned. That's something that can get disscussed at least.

>

 

I agree with the OP that a game should have an educative aspect but in this case I think the minerals are economic resources. A child can learn from this game that in the world he can find minerals, wood and herbs. How many of them, what types and in what places - this is not basic education anymore, this is GW2 economy.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

As Bunter mentioned, restricting lower-level material gathering to lower level maps gives a reason to return to those maps. It also provides newer players with the opportunity to make a bit more virtual coin as they level than they would in the typical MMO. In those games, the lower level map materials are a lot closer to worthless. In GW2, having them worth a bit more can give players who have almost nothing to start to build a bank account. I see nothing wrong with this practice.

[Drecien.4508]

> @Gudy.3607 said:

> > @Zeivu.3615 said:

> > Iron isn't rare in this game, it just has way too much usage in ascended crafting. You need, what? 60 to craft Deldrimor Steel?

>

> 90, actually: 60 for the iron ingots, another 30 for the steel ingots.

>

> My preferred adjustment would be to convert about half of the silver ore nodes in the game into iron nodes - every time I run around those low level maps on an iron mining tour, I pass by those worthless silver ore nodes and think "kitten, this could have been another iron node..."

 

Silver when added to other ore can be a money maker. My money maker. ?

[Gudy.3607]

> @Drecien.4508 said:

> Silver when added to other ore can be a money maker. My money maker. ?

 

Sure, but the monetary difference between mining and buying it from the TP is so small - and you don't need huge quantities of it for each Xunlai Electrum Ingot, that the time you need to mine it is better spent elsewhere unless a node happens to lie directly in your path.

[Pimpology.6234]

> @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> One thing that has never made sense to me in the game is how they do the material and nodes. The devs keep doing the same thing over and over with new maps; only putting mithril, ori, elderwood and ancient wood nodes on them along with a few plant nodes.

>

> Iron is one of the most abundant metals in the universe yet in GW2 it's almost rare. Mithril and ori should be way more rare than it is. Their over abundance along with elderwood has crashed their price on the TP. Of course orichalcum is an alloy not a element so there shouldn't be nodes for it. It should be crafted and salvaged not mined.

>

> One thing that bugs me is getting hardwood from pine. Whoever thought of that one needs to study dendrology or even carpentry. If they wanted to rebalance the economy they could easily do it by correcting distribution of nodes throughout the maps.

 

It seems like all this could have been fixed if they would have introduced new nodes. (for ascended mats?) I thought HoT would bring new nodes to the game. Nopes. So it was less likely PoF would even care and of course they didn't. But it seems adding new nodes for all these new 80 level maps that are a dropping might be a good idea every expansion? What we got 5 core maps in HoT and 6 LW ones so 11 maps in total that could have been filled with different endgame nodes specifically tied to HoT or PoF and would help to make old lvl70-80 nodes more rare to a degree and there wouldn't be as an abundant supply of Mithril , Elder, Orichalcum & Ancient. Though devs could apply mithril n things more sparsely or not at all in those maps. Plus it would also drive more activity in older maps. But looks like we have to wait till the 3rd xpac, (don't hold your breath) to see if they start doing this plan.

 

True Ishtan does have a new material but its used as currency and not strictly ore. Similar idea could be used for Mithril (or any old material) in future maps since there seems to be an abundant supply.

[Solvar.7953]

There have been various carrots added to the game to try and get people on the older maps (need for those materials, various dailies on them), but that does not appear to be sufficient to meet the demand. The fact that new maps have the same nodes as the other level 80 maps means that those resources just keep showing up in more numbers.

I do play through some of the lower level maps, but more to do world completion. Going through them to mine resources is not very interesting - the fights are relatively easy and most of the drops are going to be pretty poor.

It would be interesting if PvE nodes behaved like those in the guildhall, where what harvesting tool you use determines the best material you may get. Use an iron pickaxe? You are getting iron or lower quality material. Not 100% sure if that would be useful, as now you are probably getting copper and silver that you don't need.

 

[mauried.5608]

There seems to be an assumption that there is a requirement that the supply of commodities has to be in some way balanced to the demand for them.

ie I need lots of "this " so therefore there must be lots of places where "this" can be found .

Likewise I dont need any of "that" so no need to supply much of "that."

No MMOs work like that.

You will always get lots of stuff that have little or no use, and likewise supply of stuff that everyone wants will be limited.

Thats the whole idea of how MMOs work.

Keeps people playing for longer as you have to put in much more effort to get the stuff that you need, because its likley that if you need it , then so does everyone else as well.

So this mechanism rewards the players who put the most time in looking for the stuff they need.

 

 

[Khisanth.2948]

Anyone want to explain bleeding air elementals?

 

LS3 added items that salvage into multiple tiers. PoF added the ability to buy chests that give items from one of two tiers.

 

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> There seems to be an assumption that there is a requirement that the supply of commodities has to be in some way balanced to the demand for them.

> ie I need lots of "this " so therefore there must be lots of places where "this" can be found .

> Likewise I dont need any of "that" so no need to supply much of "that."

> No MMOs work like that.

> You will always get lots of stuff that have little or no use, and likewise supply of stuff that everyone wants will be limited.

> Thats the whole idea of how MMOs work.

> Keeps people playing for longer as you have to put in much more effort to get the stuff that you need, because its likley that if you need it , then so does everyone else as well.

> So this mechanism rewards the players who put the most time in looking for the stuff they need.

>

>

 

Heh I have a lot of stuff I don't use specifically so I don't have to go get when I do find a use.

[Aeolus.3615]

i bet it was just the easiest way developers found to code and implement materials farm in the game.... with the basic materials for the awful crafting system of this game.

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> People seem to be missing the point. It's not about the iron or other materials but the ratio of maps with specific materials is getting way out of balance. Maybe they need to come up with new metals and woods for new recipes. Things like Enchanted Wood some kind of magical metal.

 

Why would you aim for a balanced output of different materials, if the demand for each material is different?

[Solvar.7953]

I agree that materials will never be balanced - there will always be something that is in shorter supply, and thus more valuable. I think it is just a little odd that it is the mid tier commodities, like hard wood and iron, which are those lacking in supply. And that is because the top tier materials show up on all the new maps.

Those mid tier materials are not typically being used to create mid tier items - they are being used to make the ascended crafting materials. And those ascended materials require a lot more of the top tier materials (deldrimore steel is 50 mithril ingots (for mithrillium) and 20 iron and 10 steel). So if iron dropped at the same rate as mithril, there would be no problem.

There is the process of opening things like chests on level 40-50 characters so you get more drops of those materials. But it seems like an odd gameplay mechanic to take chests found on a level 80 character and then opening (and keeping) a low level character to chest opening to get those materials.