Tyson.5160

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> So after doing more achievements, I discovered that the book achievement goes into more detail about Drakkar's post-GW1 activities (as do some ambient dialogue at Spirit's Refuge that was mentioned already).

>

> > Since then, the lake has been kniown as a place of curious whispers and dark power. Following the rise of Jormag, many norn abandoned the ancient shrines and settlements dotting the valley, leaving them to the elements and the dragon's loyal servants.

> >

> > When the kodan arrived shortly after Jormag's rise, they were forced to make that valley their own. The waters would not take them farther, and their ships were trapped within mountains of ice. The small huts they built to protect themselves from the cold soon became a permanent settlement. When the time came to name their new home, all the kodan seemed to acknowledge that there was something...curious about the nearby > l> ake.

> >

> > The snow muffles the sounds of nature, gives the wind a voice of its own -- yet this was different. The water itself seemed to speak, a whisper barely perceptible. The kodan named their settlement after this strange phenomenon: Still Waters Speaking.

> >

> > Then Zhaitan was slain. Then Mordremoth. Then Kralkatorrik. With each Elder Dragon slain by the Pact Commander and their allies, the whispers seemed to grow louder. What was once a murmur on the wind soon became fully formed words. You heard the words, and the words knew you heard them. They would speak to you, tell you what you wanted to hear.

> >

> > You would begin to trust the words as your own thoughts.

> >

> > And that was how Jormag's thoughts became your thoughts.

> >

> > Somehow, Drakkar's presence in the lake was making Jormag's voice louder in the valley. The kodan knew what was happening before anyone else. They figured out what Drakkar was. Drakkar the creaturre in the lake, the Ice Dragon'S personal champion, was a mouthpiece for the Elder Dragon. An amplifier of sorts, capable of spreading the whispers of the Elder Dragon far beyond its lair. And with the death of Kralkatorrik and the emergence of a new Elder Dragon in his stead, Drakkar's whispers became unbearable.

>

> So not just Jormag, but Drakkar got boosts from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, and Kralkatorrik even it seems.

>

> So Drakkar's changes, in both power and appearance, seems to me to be based off of first siphoning power from the Lost Spirits, then from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and most recently Kralkatorrik.

>

> Being affected by so many types of magic would undoubtably alter Drakkar's appearance, in a similar manner that Aurene's appearance was altered when she absorbed a ton of magic, and her appearance took some influence from that magic (her jaw coming from Mordremoth, for example).

We now have confirmation that Aurene did not absorb all of Kralkatorrik’s magic as well as Jormag potentially having Crystal and Fury spectrums too.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> If it was only Wolverine's power, I'd definitely see that as possible, given the aberrants are fairly necrotic/undead-like. But how does Ox and Eagle's powers influence Drakkar's appearance? Could also be Zhaitan's magic influencing Drakkar, but nothing suggests such - just Jormag's new ability to speak through corpses hints at such (since S3).

The energy coming off of Drakkar is that greeny colour that Zhaitan uses, so it could be possible. I briefly looked at the combat log and saw a few combat skills, but nothing that points to death, other then Drakkar’s physical appearance and green energy.

Here is the actual dialogue:

Vigil Crusader: The stories made it seem like Drakkar was trapped in the ice. And that it looked...different then.

Kodan Guard: That was hundreds of years ago. The whole time, Jormag's power seeped into the beast. Molding. Changing.

Vigil Crusader: So you're saying those pictures the old explorers drew...they're still accurate?

Kodan Guard: Were accurate. Ice fills any shape. Becomes any form. The dragon's magic changed Drakkar to suit its purposes.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> You can also tell that a lot of its flesh has rotten away, namely the skin around its skull and forearms, which could explain why his head looks thinner than in GW1. Drakkar still has those side plate-things, but they're much smaller now.

>

> Still not that much of a fan to the changes, and wish there was more explanation given than "because Jormag willed it" which is no better than "a wizard did it", but at least there are _some_ similarities when you look closely.

It could be that it looks different because is feeding on the infinite energy of the lost spirits of the wild. Could explain it’s change in appearance.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Trynton.4368" said:

> > When we killed it yesterday after 20:00 CET it was just a big HP sponge. ppl in map chat said there were supposed to be some mechanics, phases, breakbars or adds or sth (infos from their friends on other instances of the map) but we were having none of that, just grinding it down slowly from 100% to 0.

> > Probably bugged i guess.

> > After killing Drakkar we got achievements for killing it, but no loot. Like, no loot at all. All the fighting for nothing (aside from the achievs).

> > I sure hope that's getting fixed soon, or else this world boss (!) has no replay value at all.

>

> There was cc and phases, the problem was they were irrelevant. The cc went down quick and the portal champs died in seconds with a handful of players (the debuff preventing access actually made portals easier)

>

> The area is far, far too small for mechanics like these and the visual pollution overwhelming to telegraph anything. So if they do add things or buff the boss, they absolutely have to redesign some of the environment because it is unsuitable for a boss fight of such scale.

>

> The whole thing needs sending back to the drawing board in an ideal world to expand the area, add in proper mechanics that divide the Zerg (there shouldn’t be Zerg mechanics in 2020) and above all, remove the visual noise cluttering the screen.

Honestly, I would give it a couple weeks and see how the fight is when there are not big zergs doing it and see how difficult the boss is to kill then.

> @"Trynton.4368" said:

> When we killed it yesterday after 20:00 CET it was just a big HP sponge. ppl in map chat said there were supposed to be some mechanics, phases, breakbars or adds or sth (infos from their friends on other instances of the map) but we were having none of that, just grinding it down slowly from 100% to 0.

> Probably bugged i guess.

> After killing Drakkar we got achievements for killing it, but no loot. Like, no loot at all. All the fighting for nothing (aside from the achievs).

> I sure hope that's getting fixed soon, or else this world boss (!) has no replay value at all.

There’s a phase where Drakkar grabs Jhavi energy sphere and requires you to Cc it down. The phase also shift to sending players through portals to fight champions of the lost spirit of the wild.

My first group was in the 1 minute and 50 seconds of the boss running off, but that was just my experience

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I suppose in order for Joko’s immortality magic to make sense, the magic itself would have to be from a dragon, a divine god or some entity equally as powerful, in order for Aurene to use the ability. Those are the only avenues that make sense.

>

> Not necessarily. It could be a different reason such as the amount of magic Aurene had at the time didn't dilute non-cosmic energy, for example. But this would work best if it also meant Aurene is no longer immortal; which, imo, would be the best thing for them to do with Aurene because having an immortal Elder Dragon to come and save the day would make for a kitten plot - either you have dues ex machinas which ruin any tension, or you have the burning question of "why isn't Aurene helping us?" - but if she was vulnerable to and weaker than Jormag or Primordus then it'd make sense for her to not be in direct conflict.

> >

So at the time she consumed Joko’s magic she has the energy that she received from Mordremoth(Zhaitan) as an egg and the energy that she received from Balthazar. Which is probably a much high quantity then the magic she received from Joko, just based on the visuals alone. Then she also has the magic she absorbed during the Glint trials as well. Best case scenario Joko’s magic constitutes for 1/4 of her magic, buts it’s probably less.

If Anet does take that immortality ability away, I do hope they have a better explanation then magic diluting, because I think that will just confuse a lot of people. That or some other entity attempts to unbind her immortality magic, just as she did to Joko.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > That said if it were that easy for Zhaitan to do that then why on Tyria didn't it do it?

> I mean, why don't any of the Elder Dragons just perpetually fly over land creating mass corruption? Zhaitan could easily just have flown over Kryta and Ascalon and rose centuries worth of undead, given he was able to make Mazdak, a 1,400 year old corpse, a risen.

>

> Instead, all of the Elder Dragons seem to be very content on just letting their minions do the hard work instead.

>

> Most likely reason, in my opinion, would be that doing so uses up a lot of power and it's not something you'd do willy-nilly. It's suggested that the Elder Dragons aren't allied, and may even be rivals, if so then actively using up a bunch of power by flyiing over and constantly corrupting could leave them vulnerable to the other Elder Dragons. So large movements would only be done when there's no immediate potential threat of other ED:

>

> Primordus and the DSD woke up roughly the same time, and while we don't know of the DSD's movements, Primordus cleared out the underground when it woke up, driving whatever remained of asura back up to the surface, before settling where it woke up (Central Transfer Chamber), only moving again to nom up dead ED juice, which happened to be away from any other ED. Jormag moved south until nearly reaching Primordus' spot (even moved further south than Asgeir's Legacy, so it didn't stop because of losing a tooth). Kralkatorrik moved to confront a traitorous general/daughter actively seeking his death, and when moving again, did so because his previous location was dangerous (particularly, being threatened by Balthazar) until he got access to the Mists and unlimited power.

>

> Of course the simple answer would be "just because" and ED movements only occur when it serves a better narrative.

>

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Yes, super familiar with this. I suppose the question is, did this Djinn have magic that was similar to dragon or divine god magic, where by inheriting this magic would also grant the bearer immortality? It seems to be the case as Aurene is immortal.

>

> That seems highly unlikely given that djinn are just elementals with souls per lore. Nothing implies divine or draconian origins outside of the djinn who gather and use Abaddon's remnant magic in the Desolation sands to make jackals and anti-brand protective bubbles. And it's just part of what makes Aurene's dues ex revivalia all the more convolutedly illogical to me. Worse that ArenaNet doesn't even _try_ to explain this massive question.

I suppose in order for Joko’s immortality magic to make sense, the magic itself would have to be from a dragon, a divine god or some entity equally as powerful, in order for Aurene to use the ability. Those are the only avenues that make sense.

> @"hash.8462" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > It still comes back to one of those old GW questions, how did Joko gain immortality and where did he gain immortality?

>

> By a wish granted by a djinn, maybe? (just an idea)

>

> _"The Scourge of Vabbi

> The earliest known mention of Joko with a date is in 757 AE, when he constructed the Bone Palace in the Desolation, a sulfurous wasteland where only demons and the undead could survive, although he had discovered a way for the living to enter this area unschathed. At some point he had seemingly discovered forbidden scriptures of the fallen god Abaddon and eventually sealed them in coffers which were hidden deep within the Vehjin Mines. However, scriptures found in at least one of the coffers turned out to be instructions to find a powerful wish-granting djinn in the Forum Highlands. **Whether Joko ever approached the djinn, who would only grant a wish once every hundred years, and what he may have asked for if he did, remains unknown.**"_

> [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko)

Yes, super familiar with this. I suppose the question is, did this Djinn have magic that was similar to dragon or divine god magic, where by inheriting this magic would also grant the bearer immortality? It seems to be the case as Aurene is immortal.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"hash.8462" said:

> > > Well, since dragons eat magic, both Zhaitan or any one of his many champion dragons could have simply eaten Joko consuming his magic exactly as Aurene did.

> >

> > Yeah which would be a major pain in the kitten to defeat an Elder Dragon that can’t die. Maybe that’s why Jormag wants Aurene, to get a hold of that immortality magic.

>

> It still doesn't make sense beyond "lolplotconvenience" and lazy writing as to how Joko could influence Aurene so much, when normal magic that gets consumed has shown to have zero influence on Elder Dragons.

>

> At this point, the only thing I can think of that makes logical sense why Primordus can't just use the magic he consumed from countless asura gates to teleport everywhere, etc. would be because Aurene wasn't an Elder Dragon at the time, and could only use that magic because she had so little magic in total, but now that she's an Elder Dragon she's no longer capable of using that soul-binding magic.

It still comes back to one of those old GW questions, how did Joko gain immortality and where did he gain immortality?

> @"hash.8462" said:

> Well, since dragons eat magic, both Zhaitan or any one of his many champion dragons could have simply eaten Joko consuming his magic exactly as Aurene did.

Yeah which would be a major pain in the ass to defeat an Elder Dragon that can’t die. Maybe that’s why Jormag wants Aurene, to get a hold of that immortality magic.

> @"Kossage.9072" said:

> > @"DaFishBob.6518" said:

> > I wonder if selling character select screens would convince Anet to get on it.

>

> I'd only accept such an option if we got as detailed login screens as GW1 had later on with that slowly scrolling, epic vista such as [this one](

The Eye of the North screen comes to mind. It was stunning.

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I know we had spoken about this topic in the past and the question about Zhaitan’s Shadow sphere has also been asked of Anet with unfortunately no response.

> >

> > From what we have seen with the other dragons there seems to be a Primary Sphere of Influence and a secondary sphere of influence. The dragon’s primary sphere is quite evident because it shows up in their corruption as well as their physical make up. The secondary sphere of influence appears to not work in the physical realm and appears more meta physical.

> >

> > Currently the Elder Dragons have shown mastery of the following sphere of influences.

> >

> > Zhaitan: Death and Shadow, Mordremoth: Plant and Mind, Kralkatorrik: Crystal and Fury, Jormag: Ice and Persuasion, Primordus: Fire and Conflagration, Deep Sea Dragon: Possibly Water and who knows what.

> >

> > Most of the secondary spheres seem self explanatory, except maybe Fury and Conflagration as we haven’t had a lot of examples. These Secondary Spheres really only seem to appear within the dragon themselves and don’t seem to be shared with its minions unlike the Primary Sphere. That being said once the Elder Dragon dies, the secondary sphere seems to be up for grabs for the other dragons and then can be shared among those dragon minions.

> >

> > Zhaitan’s Shadow Sphere of Influence doesn't really appear in the game and when sifting through all the Risen pages on the GW2 wiki can I really see any Risen using any Shadow abilities, hence why I figured that the secondary domain is restricted just to the Dragon. When an Elder Dragon dies that magic is up for grabs. So I went to one of the first examples of one of these hybrid dragon minions that unknowingly appeared in the game with a new sphere of influence, the Shadow of the Dragon.

> >

> > At the time of the release we did not know that the Dragons can consume their spheres of influence and push those influences onto their minions. With no clear example of Zhaitan’s Shadow influence, I looked at how the Shadow of the Dragon operated. When you fight the Shadow of the Dragon it spawns several different Shadow creatures, Shadow Tendrils, Malformed Shadows and Smothering Shadows. This appears to be clear evidence that Mordremoth consumed the Shadow influence from Zhaitan as well as the death spectrum. Mordremoth also creates Smothering Shadows in the final HoT story mission.

> >

> > As you progress the encounter, Braham throws the divine fire to activate the areas around the makeshift jungle arena to eventually be able to damage the boss. The Smothering Shadows slowly walk toward the edges of the arena and Smother the divine fire and can only be harmed by it. The dragon minions also appear to fear and run from the divine fire and energy as well, as shown by the beginning of the Mystery cave.

> >

> > After looking back at that fight, I started to wonder if Zhaitan was using the Shadow Influence to smother the divine energies of the God Temples and their statues in Orr and once the energy was smothered, use his mastery over death to use his Risen Priests and Priestesses of the Gods to corrupt the energy of the statues. I would imagine that Zhaitan would want to stop these Divine energies from scaring away his minions and would want to corrupt the essences to power himself even more.

> >

> > The ability to stop the divine energy doesn’t seem to be an ability associated to the Death Spectrum, but it seems to be an ability shown by the Shadow Spectrum as shown by the Smothering Shadows. It should also be noted that taking back the statues themselves in Orr, certain pillars that have fire on them change their influence along with the associated god statues changing back to their typical god statue influence, Melandru’s statue growing back leaves for example. The Gods themselves also can’t be view by mortal eyes because of their divine light, which would make sense that Zhaitan would have negate this influence with the Shadow Sphere.

> >

> > Thoughts?

>

> Good observations. I just wonder if you've developed a long-winded way of thinking about how Elder Dragon corruption works. It'll only lead to more confusion, I think.

I really haven’t thought of a long winded explanation for dragon corruption. My interest tend to stick around with the dragons influences and how they are displayed or explained in the Tyria. The dragon corruption or the primary sphere of influence tend to mainly show up in their corruption, with entities as well as the terrain. I think even the primary spheres having varying abilities in them as well, Crystal also granting prophecy, Plant building minions as well as cloning for example.

It was only a few years ago through a Lore AFC and nothing shown in game that only dragons absorbing the death spectrum could make use of corpses for minions.

I believe Konig dove into this topic with more detail over the years,

Definitely yes, and they can throw in the music from the Shadows in the Ice to the character selection as well.

We have all the Branded skins, I would love to see Risen, Mordrem and the other dragon minion skins for the mounts.

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > looking forward to seeing how drakkar fairs. If the trailer is hinting at braham becoming more of what ppl feel lacks from gw2 norm then thats a plus on my book and the weapon set looks nice.

>

> Also, Thats not drakkar, drakkar looks nothing like that. It a cool looking boss ill give you that but thats not drakkar.

I noticed that Drakkar has a bunch of green energy, much like the aberrant, which is the same kind of energy as the Bone-skinner. This could explain why the Drakkar looks different then his older model. Drakkar is semi transformed into an aquatic Bone Skinner like entity potentially, which is suppose be like a corrupted wolverine spirit energy.

Sorry guys, I can’t bother to play this right now. Too frustrating.

Yeah, can only play for roughly 5 minutes before crashing....

I also had this problem with mining, logging etc with material gathering. Crash every time.

> @"Juillin.5361" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> >

> > Zafirah: She had to die. "For this was the fire of courage..."

> > Aurene: "And so did they...follow their god into battle."

> > Zafirah: "Without fear or hesitation."

> >

> > So how did Aurene know to quote this line. Maybe absorbing Balthazar gained this knowledge as well as possible memories. Aurene also seems to know a lot about the Mist locations as well, which I imagine was knowledge she got from Balthazar.

> >

>

> Keep in mind that the Exalted's entire existence was centered around Aurene. Their whole reason for being was to raise her in a way that she would love and respect humans, so she would have to be a little versed in their culture, including religion. They themselves were formerly humans, so the most likely answer for this one is that she picked it up while being tutored by them, and there was a lot of time for that between the various S3/4 episodes. Basically the Tyrian version of a kid in Sunday School.

Yeah, I thought of that too, as well as her prophetic ability giving her insights in knowledge she shouldn’t have. That being said, I went through War eternal again and she seems to know which God Realm is which, somehow. this could be for the sake of the player as well introducing the areas that would show up in Dragonfall as well.

I think it should also be noted of the fact that people can sense Balthazar in Aurene. Zafirah makes mention near the beginning of All or nothing.

Zafirah: What... Balthazar? I can feel him...

: Ah, right. You haven't met Aurene in person.

Zafirah: I...never expected to feel his presence again. And in a dragon...

Caithe: She's a very special dragon

Balthazar sword as well as the denizens of the Fissure of Woe are attracted to Aurene as well because of this reason.

Zafirah: It seeks Balthazar. Senses his magic. I don't understand—Balthazar was never here...

: But Aurene was.

Zafirah: The sword perceives him... through her? Just who is this dragon of yours?

Spearmarshal Zaeim: Those shadow creatures aren't giving us an inch.

Caithe: They've been fighting over this forest for centuries. Cursed to fight Balthazar and his Eternals for...well, eternity.

Spearmarshal Zaeim: Right, but we're neither of those things.

Caithe: It isn't us. It's Balthazar's magic. Aurene absorbed it after Vabbi, remember?

Spearmarshal Zaeim: And just because they sense his presence, they attack us?

Caithe: Look on the bright side: Kralkatorrik absorbed it, too- so they hate his Branded just as much as us.

Spearmarshal Zaeim: True. "The enemy of my enemy."

Caithe: Who is, in this case, still our enemy. But at least it puts things into perspective.

Could they simply sense his magic and that’s it or something more. Whenever they advise of Balthazar’s magic there’s always a mention of his presence as well.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > Pretty sure I read somewhere that stealth based skills like the thief class uses are a form of Shadow Magic, likewise they have a traitline called Shadow Arts.

> > > >

> > > > During the personal story there are a few instances where Zhaitans minions would stealth themselves to pull off ambushes, That would be a display of Shadow Magic imo.

> > >

> > > Your probably right, but it’s most likely a different type of Shadow magic, as I don’t think we are actually tapping into Zhaitan’s influence, same as our fire magic isn’t likely from Primordus and Jormag with ice etc.

> > >

> > > Yes it’s definitely possible that these ambushes are Shadow Magic references, much like the wraiths on board the airship mission.

> > >

> > > I was mainly looking at what is shown in the game with the Shadow of the Dragon and somewhat reverse engineering to see if it made sense for Zhaitan to use it in a similar way.

> >

> > It's an interesting creature for sure..

> >

> > Shadow of the Dragon goes back way before Mordremoth too, first time we see it is after first creating Sylvari characters.

> > It's said to be a shadowy manifestation of evil that's supposed to represent Zhaitan.

> > Then it shows up in the real world as a champion of Mordremoth..

> >

> > It begs questions like..

> > Did Caithe etc just misinterpret the attack on the dream and attribute Shadow to Zhaitan because he was the most pressing threat at the time?

> > Was Mordremoth actually responsible for the nightmare assault on the dream?

> > Did Mordremoth need Zhaitan's magic before it could manifest this champion in the real world?

> >

> > It makes me curious as to whether Mordremoth has been pulling strings right from the beginning of Gw2.

> > If Shadow of the Dragon was always his champion then Mordremoth was responsible for the attack on the dream.. but to what end or purpose?

> > Could Mordremoth have been using Shadow of the Dragon to manipulate the Sylvari concept of a Wyld Hunt in order to encourage his Sylvari to take up arms and kill Zhaitan?

> > Was that just the first step in his master plan to awaken himself?

> >

> > Definitely a possiblity and a pretty interesting one too as it would be the only case we've had in the game so far of an Elder Dragon actively plotting to kill and steal the power of another Elder Dragon.

> >

> > Considering Mordrmeoth is the Dragon of Minds I kinda want all this to be true.

> > Mordy was criticized a lot for it's dominion over the mind yet it was never really shown all that much outside of the Sylvari.

> > If he's been manipulating the sylvari all along so he could orchestrate the death of another Elder Dragon that add's a good chunk of malicious and intelligent character to the Dragon of minds prior to the Scarlet saga where he had direct access to a minions mind to orchestrate his awakening.

> >

> > Everything Sylvari comes into question then.. Caithes Wyld Hunt being the same as ours? no coincidence that she ended up being part of the team that killed Zhaitan then is it?

> >

> > Traherne's wyld hunt to cleanse orr.. odd coincidence that plant magic from Caladbolg which was born from one of the Pale Tree's thorns was able to reverse Zhaitans corruption..

> > Did we really cleanse orr in the end? or were we just laying the groundwork for Mordremoth to spread into Zhaitans territory after we killed it?

> >

> > If we play a Sylvari ourselves it's hard to overlook the fact that 3 Sylvari played massive roles in the death of Zhaitan.

> > 2 of which where leading the entire Pact movement against Zhaitan.

> > And isn't it also just a tad suspicious that we took the pact into Orr and killed Zhaitan without too much trouble but when we attempted to do the same in the Magumma Jungle Mordremoth obliterated the pact forces with next to no effort at all.. and thousands of Sylvari *turned* then and there.

> > How long had Modremoth been orchestrating that ambush I wonder.. could it have been as far back as the personal story?

> >

> > Who knows :)

>

> You forget the fact the Mordremoth was unconscious until the very last minute of Season 1, with Scarlet dying while her machine woke him up.

> I think that the Sylvari gained independence and free will was precisely BECAUSE he was asleep and couldn't corrupt their minds.

> The Wyld Hunt came to be because they sought a reason for existence, not know they should be Dragon minions.

> As for the Shadow of the dragon, I think they simply reused the model.

> Or the player's Wyld Hunt simply was to kill that season 2 boss and not Zhaitan.

> We don't even know if the Dragon Caithe saw in her dream was the same as we saw, as she was called back into the dream **to help Sylvari players**.

>

> As for the Shadow part of its name, I think it's not actual Shadow Magic related, but more figurative speaking like "a shadow of your former self", representing the same entity albeit being much less in every way.

I wouldn’t say that Mordremoth was unconscious, he was still guiding Scarlet into doing what he needed to do to fully wake up. Just like Jormag, who as it states to the PC, dreaming beneath the ice. This occurred in Season1, notice the first line.

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd's machine, you've been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.

Scarlet Briar: Let me be clear. I'm not doing this for you; I'm doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever.

Scarlet Briar: It's not true. None of it. I don't have to listen to you. Get out of my head!

Marjory Delaqua: I wonder if the voices in her head are real? What if what she saw in Omadd's machine grabbed hold of her?

Marjory Delaqua: Scarlet rejected the Pale Tree because she wanted independence. What if Omadd's machine cost her that?

Marjory Delaqua: Ironic that she rejected the Pale Tree to exert her independence, only to lose it to something else.

I’m actually more curious if let’s say Zhaitan in his magic provided Mordremoth with knowledge of the Pact fleet. Essentially how they performed in Orr, which would give Mordremoth the upper hand. Much like how Aurene was provided knowledge from Balthazar and kinda similar to what Kralkatorrik said as well.

From War Eternal:

Zafirah: She had to die. "For this was the fire of courage..."

Aurene: "And so did they...follow their god into battle."

Zafirah: "Without fear or hesitation."

So how did Aurene know to quote this line. Maybe absorbing Balthazar gained this knowledge as well as possible memories. Aurene also seems to know a lot about the Mist locations as well, which I imagine was knowledge she got from Balthazar.

Also Kralkatorrik says this during the final battle:

Kralkatorrik: Your first words... I heard them.

Aurene: I'm not you.

Kralkatorrik: But you are of me. And soon I will be of you.

Is it possible that when the Elder Dragons absorb each other’s magic they also absorb their knowledge, essence or experiences?

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Pretty sure I read somewhere that stealth based skills like the thief class uses are a form of Shadow Magic, likewise they have a traitline called Shadow Arts.

>

> During the personal story there are a few instances where Zhaitans minions would stealth themselves to pull off ambushes, That would be a display of Shadow Magic imo.

Your probably right, but it’s most likely a different type of Shadow magic, as I don’t think we are actually tapping into Zhaitan’s influence, same as our fire magic isn’t likely from Primordus and Jormag with ice etc.

Yes it’s definitely possible that these ambushes are Shadow Magic references, much like the wraiths on board the airship mission.

I was mainly looking at what is shown in the game with the Shadow of the Dragon and somewhat reverse engineering to see if it made sense for Zhaitan to use it in a similar way.

> @"Juillin.5361" said:

> My guess would be that this "secondary influence" might not have been very strong to begin with, verging more on a talent more than anything else, and has slowly been getting amplified as the dragons absorb stuff from their fallen counterparts. So not only are they gaining new abilities that they didn't have before, but other abilities that they might have had but not been very good at are also getting stronger, which could be much more problematic and unexpected. The last thing we need is a talent for "conflagration" becoming stronger.

It’s fascinating because sometimes the dragon will take one of these spheres of influence and apply it in a different way. Mordremoth with the Death Spectrum for example was just throwing dead bodies into the blighting tree and blister pods and creating minions, which it could not do in previous rises. Which significantly different then how Zhaitan used the Death Spectrum, with minions appearing immediately on death or being corrupted. Even Primordus used it differently and modified his destroyers with death magic as well as plant magic in a different way then Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

Kralkatorrik gained the Mind Spectrum and used it to improve his branded minions with more awareness and amplified the hive mind.

Even recently Jormag has been playing with the death spectrum to speak through and manipulate corpses. We have seen Jormag experimenting with death and plant magic with the unstable abomination and even appeared to combine the two energies. Now it seems like Jormag is using the death spectrum more subtly, then say Kralkatorrik and the death-branded.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > These Secondary Spheres really only seem to appear within the dragon themselves and don’t seem to be shared with its minions unlike the Primary Sphere.

>

> I'd disagree here. Both Drakkar and the Dragonspawn have shown pretty heavy use of the Persuasion sphere, with Drakkar seducing Svanir and several other norn, and the Dragonspawn using similar power on Zojja, Snaff, and Eir in EoD.

>

> Similarly, the three Mordrem Guard Commanders seem to make use of the Mind sphere, with how their minds transfer to new bodies upon death, much like Mordremoth himself.

>

> So rather than "no minions use it", rather, I'd think it's that "only the strongest minions use it".

>

> If we then assume that, there is one certain powerful minion of Zhaitan's which has a shadow-like ability:

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Giganticus_Lupicus

> > Shadow Walk

>

> Though that doesn't really say much, and doesn't seem to relate to Zhaitan. Though there is one ability of Zhaitan's that _might_ relate: the summoning of [Tendrils of Zhaitan](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tendrils_of_Zhaitan), which appear as if they'd be part of Zhaitan itself. Shadow magic does seem to include teleportation, so if Zhaitan used it to "teleport pieces of himself" onto the deck, that could explain it; and could explain how it summons risen in mass too.

>

Good point. I also notice that Aurene herself has an ability called Dragon’s Fury, which she uses throughout the Season 4. This just appears to be a fiery blast, but it still might be Aurene using this Fury Aspect. Much like Kralkatorrik using abilities like Kralkatorrik’s Ire. That Sphere doesn’t really appear at all. So we could potentially see the other dragon enraged their minions maybe? That’s if some Kralkatorrik’s magic seeped back into Tyria.

Edit: Aurene actually possesses a lot of skills that may or may not encompass the Fury Sphere as well. Dragon’s Rage, Dragon’s fury, Dragon’s Wrath, Aurene’s Fury.

I know we had spoken about this topic in the past and the question about Zhaitan’s Shadow sphere has also been asked of Anet with unfortunately no response.

From what we have seen with the other dragons there seems to be a Primary Sphere of Influence and a secondary sphere of influence. The dragon’s primary sphere is quite evident because it shows up in their corruption as well as their physical make up. The secondary sphere of influence appears to not work in the physical realm and appears more meta physical.

Currently the Elder Dragons have shown mastery of the following sphere of influences.

Zhaitan: Death and Shadow, Mordremoth: Plant and Mind, Kralkatorrik: Crystal and Fury, Jormag: Ice and Persuasion, Primordus: Fire and Conflagration, Deep Sea Dragon: Possibly Water and who knows what.

Most of the secondary spheres seem self explanatory, except maybe Fury and Conflagration as we haven’t had a lot of examples. These Secondary Spheres really only seem to appear within the dragon themselves and don’t seem to be shared with its minions unlike the Primary Sphere. That being said once the Elder Dragon dies, the secondary sphere seems to be up for grabs for the other dragons and then can be shared among those dragon minions.

Zhaitan’s Shadow Sphere of Influence doesn't really appear in the game and when sifting through all the Risen pages on the GW2 wiki can I really see any Risen using any Shadow abilities, hence why I figured that the secondary domain is restricted just to the Dragon. When an Elder Dragon dies that magic is up for grabs. So I went to one of the first examples of one of these hybrid dragon minions that unknowingly appeared in the game with a new sphere of influence, the Shadow of the Dragon.

At the time of the release we did not know that the Dragons can consume their spheres of influence and push those influences onto their minions. With no clear example of Zhaitan’s Shadow influence, I looked at how the Shadow of the Dragon operated. When you fight the Shadow of the Dragon it spawns several different Shadow creatures, Shadow Tendrils, Malformed Shadows and Smothering Shadows. This appears to be clear evidence that Mordremoth consumed the Shadow influence from Zhaitan as well as the death spectrum. Mordremoth also creates Smothering Shadows in the final HoT story mission.

As you progress the encounter, Braham throws the divine fire to activate the areas around the makeshift jungle arena to eventually be able to damage the boss. The Smothering Shadows slowly walk toward the edges of the arena and Smother the divine fire and can only be harmed by it. The dragon minions also appear to fear and run from the divine fire and energy as well, as shown by the beginning of the Mystery cave.

After looking back at that fight, I started to wonder if Zhaitan was using the Shadow Influence to smother the divine energies of the God Temples and their statues in Orr and once the energy was smothered, use his mastery over death to use his Risen Priests and Priestesses of the Gods to corrupt the energy of the statues. I would imagine that Zhaitan would want to stop these Divine energies from scaring away his minions and would want to corrupt the essences to power himself even more.

The ability to stop the divine energy doesn’t seem to be an ability associated to the Death Spectrum, but it seems to be an ability shown by the Shadow Spectrum as shown by the Smothering Shadows. It should also be noted that taking back the statues themselves in Orr, certain pillars that have fire on them change their influence along with the associated god statues changing back to their typical god statue influence, Melandru’s statue growing back leaves for example. The Gods themselves also can’t be view by mortal eyes because of their divine light, which would make sense that Zhaitan would have negate this influence with the Shadow Sphere.

Thoughts?