Bazsi.2734

The was game initially designed to deliver all important combat information through visuals, but than the team gradually changed and new content follows the initial rules less and less. Renegade has 2 important summons, the elite and the CC pulsing one... show of hands, who can tell if they are up or not just from the visual chaos of an average teamfight? The animations for said summons are so "loud" that they drown out everything, even each other. Meanwhile really important skills like corrosive poison cloud have no animation whatsoever... wanna know if the enemy has projectile blocking up? Well shoot into them and see what happens. I expect it to be even worse with the release of EoD.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"John.8507" said: > > > > > > According to the skill notes when your in this form you can't be feared, but that happens where you get feared, all so turned in to a moa as well which seems like it shouldn't happen > > > > > > > > > > Why shouldn't that happen? Seeing a giant fearsome lich and turning it into a bird is, other than perfectly legit counterplay, one of the funniest things you can get out of this game. > > > > > > > > I personally think moa ignoring stab is stupid, but the skill itself is so bad nerfing it would be pointless. > > > > but the concept of having a counter to a counter seems kitten backwards to me, similar thing to shadow-meld. stupid by design > > > > > > I'm sorry Lich is counter to what? > > > > I ment as stability counter to CC, and moa ( cc ) counters stability. > > If anything it should be unblockable and ignore blind but be stopped by stability, would be more logically sound and less bad > > Please no, how am I supposed to deal with flamethrower scrappers then? Grillers are strong I guess Shadow Meld is okay then? :P

> @"John.8507" said: > Okay sure, the transform skill is right, but how can you still be feared in Lich form, when the tool tip specifically says cannot be feared? Take a look at that tooltip again. The transform does not grant you immunity to fear and other CC, it just applies stability. Which is a boon, and boons have counterplay to them. They can be removed and corrupted. So the transform is functionally not broken, it's actually working as intended.

> @"Luclinraider.2317" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > "Hey devs, this gamemode no longer worth investing in because it died, LETS INVEST IN IT!" > > Change downstate from "True" to "False" in the back end. > Of course this is an exaggeration but it likely wouldn't take more than 1 dev 5 minutes to turn downed state off in pvp. Not really anything invested. Oh so all revive traits and skills can just go on the shelf next to the 300 second cooldown traits. Cool plan.

"Hey devs, this gamemode no longer worth investing in because it died, LETS INVEST IN IT!"

Future balance direction could be... to have one at all. One minor nerfing patch every 6 months won't cut it.

> @"Blake.8476" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Blake.8476" said: > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > @"Blake.8476" said: > > > > > My suggestion is to remove damage from conditions and instead make them like utilities, For example (poison can reduce healing but not damage you, burning applies vulnerability, bleeding makes you lose endurance, torment makes you see clones, confusion makes your weapon abilities swap places etc) conditions are currently ticking away your health at an alarming rate (burning condition especially) Then there is the heaIth and toughness perk that condi builds gain that power builds do not get as much of, For instance power dragonhunter has 11k-16khp where a condi dragonhunter has 21k-25k. I do understand that making this change would be a very big rework of amulets, runes, sigil's, classes and weapons. but maybe make an extra game mode (condition free matches/power builds only) like an event... and test it, Get response from the community and decide whether to change for good or not. Trust me SPVP will become balanced and if not then you tried at least without impacting the current system, People complain about condi builds (revnant, mirage, necro) Then arenanet nerfs it and a new condi build is made, The process repeats itself, Take care and thank you for your consideration. Guild Wars 2 for life! > > > > > > > > How would this make PvP balanced? I cant even imagine this change working out. Even modified a bit here and there, it's just way out there. > > > > Example: condi core necromancer. It does basicly no power damage. You nullify its offense through conditions, compensate by doubling its health... and you get a 100K health monster(shroud and HP combined) that weakens, cripples and fears you, but does absolutely no damage. What about this would be fun or balanced? > > > > > > > > Not to mention this would break PvE aswell. > > > > > > > > If you want changes this radical in an 8 year old game, you're better off making a new one. > > > > > > This change im suggesting is ONLY for SPVP not Pve, and core necro does a ton of power damage! > > > i played power core necro for a long time and even got to plat 2 with it... > > > and its never too late for a change (it would bring new life and a different outlook to the game which in turn would potentially lure players back that have quit because of this) > > > > PvP and PvE can have different balance, but they cannot have a different design. If you bleed someone/something, the same code calculates whats happening to your target in all gamemodes. So you either apply a design change to all gamemodes, or none of them. > > This is not true, Ever read your abilities? Some of them clearly say's (this skill is unique per game mode.) and thus it can be different from one another. I used the words balance and design on purpose. Have you ever read those abilities? All they differ in are numerical values like cooldown, duration etc. Show me one skill that has a different DESIGN! Exactly, there is none. Also saying that core necro does a lot of power damage doesn't really negate the fact that CONDI core necro doesn't. And it was just one example, all classes have builds which are exclusively focused on dealing damage through conditions. Weaponsets, entire traitlines, amulets, sigils, runes... condition damage is half of the game dude. You can't just remove it. Even if I granted you step one, which would be the techical problems of having different DESIGNS of the same skill, you're still left with a combat system thats designed around the duality of power and condition damage. You can't just erase condition damage from that system and expect it to work. You are literally this meme with your suggestion: "Hmm one of my legs hurt, I guess I could walk better if I just CUT IT OFF."

> @"Blake.8476" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Blake.8476" said: > > > My suggestion is to remove damage from conditions and instead make them like utilities, For example (poison can reduce healing but not damage you, burning applies vulnerability, bleeding makes you lose endurance, torment makes you see clones, confusion makes your weapon abilities swap places etc) conditions are currently ticking away your health at an alarming rate (burning condition especially) Then there is the heaIth and toughness perk that condi builds gain that power builds do not get as much of, For instance power dragonhunter has 11k-16khp where a condi dragonhunter has 21k-25k. I do understand that making this change would be a very big rework of amulets, runes, sigil's, classes and weapons. but maybe make an extra game mode (condition free matches/power builds only) like an event... and test it, Get response from the community and decide whether to change for good or not. Trust me SPVP will become balanced and if not then you tried at least without impacting the current system, People complain about condi builds (revnant, mirage, necro) Then arenanet nerfs it and a new condi build is made, The process repeats itself, Take care and thank you for your consideration. Guild Wars 2 for life! > > > > How would this make PvP balanced? I cant even imagine this change working out. Even modified a bit here and there, it's just way out there. > > Example: condi core necromancer. It does basicly no power damage. You nullify its offense through conditions, compensate by doubling its health... and you get a 100K health monster(shroud and HP combined) that weakens, cripples and fears you, but does absolutely no damage. What about this would be fun or balanced? > > > > Not to mention this would break PvE aswell. > > > > If you want changes this radical in an 8 year old game, you're better off making a new one. > > This change im suggesting is ONLY for SPVP not Pve, and core necro does a ton of power damage! > i played power core necro for a long time and even got to plat 2 with it... > and its never too late for a change (it would bring new life and a different outlook to the game which in turn would potentially lure players back that have quit because of this) PvP and PvE can have different balance, but they cannot have a different design. If you bleed someone/something, the same code calculates whats happening to your target in all gamemodes. So you either apply a design change to all gamemodes, or none of them.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > > Instead of nerfing sustain again, we need to bring damage back up a tad and reduce the cooldown of #2 skills. Both of these changes were done to slow down the game, make choices more deliberate, but they went too far in their intended goal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lower weapon cooldowns, raise damage across the board. Bring damage back to heavily telegraphed CC skills like Executioner's slap, Prime light poke, drop the squeaker, big ol' fart, and backscratcher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each of these tweaks should have followed the feb patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We've need to stop trying to solve issues by nerfing what's directly in front of our face and instead ask how it got there in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both damage and sustain were so high that attrition style gameplay did not exist. You stacked vitality/thoughness (or both) to survive oneshots, not to deal with pressure. > > > > > > > > Damage was drasticly lowered in february, and then some. Oneshots are gone from competetive PvP, they are banished to unranked meme build status. > > > > > > > > Which was the purpose of the patch, good on A-net. However sustain bunkers are a thing now. You sit on the node(often with 1 another bunker buddy of yours), and you rotate through your defenses. It almost doesn't matter whats trying to attack you. As long as you move out of the most concentrated AoE-s and avoid getting 5v2-d, you can easily draw any fight out to eternity. > > > > > > > > Sustain is too high, period. The gamemode is about holding/contesting nodes, if any build can just sit on it, it's bad for the game. There should be an intricate dance of jumping on/off the capture point to hold, avoiding pressure, faking out bursts, coordinating spikes... not this braindead "lets just tank everything while we spam defensive rotation and heals" that most of my matches with plat 2+ players devolve into. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd propose to shift supports from raw healing towards damage mitigation. Of course every support could still heal some, but guardians could excel at spamming protection/aegis, necromancers could be the king of condition transfers, druids could mix healing with outgoing buffs/mightstacks etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point would be that once you land damage, it matters. Currently the initial midfight 4v4 can go on for minutes. People dipping below 50%, just to get topped off seconds later. This shouldn't be a thing. Healthbars should generally go downwards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >snip > > > > > > > But as I said, Anet went too far with reducing damage, increasing cooldowns, and nerfing damage on crowd control. Every time we reach a point where healthbars generally go downwards, people complain about the class(es) doing the damage. If every sustain decrease is met with an equal or greater damage decrease, the problem will never be fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >snip > > > > > > > > > > > > The meta we had before was more like an FPS, it was more about predictions and reaction times. Fun, but not really what an MMO should be. So a-net started shifting it towards a different balance, where fights last longer, and lacking superior reaction times can be made up with good tactical decisions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really? The nature of the sidenoder fights didnt really change. What changed is that fights that lasted 30 seconds to a minute on average now last 15 minutes on average unless +1d. Or in simpler terms, no one dies. > > > > > > > > > > > You need way lower damage, and even lower sustain to achive fights last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying. The current sustain is too high for that. Ever time unranked matchmaking decides im the one fill up that last spot in a match with top 50 premades, I often spend the entire match rotating from fight to fight because we cannot kill anything. Sure healthbars go down, but whoever took my burst and went down to 40%-ish, gets covered in boons and healed back up to full in 2 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > No. If you want fights that last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying, you simply need to revert every non-QoL change made since and including the february megapatch. Its as easy as that. If you just keep trying to cut damage and sustain more, you get a spammy game with no skill or tactics involved, that is so unfathomably boring I cant see why anyone would put themselves through it. > > > > > > > > > > > You do not solve this problem by buffing damage back so I can 100-0 instead of 100-40. Neither will a partial revert achive anything, who cares if my target got healed back from 20% instead of 40%? He's back to full... same outcome. > > > > > > > > > > Yes you do solve the problem by buffing damage back up. In fact, thats the *only* solution. > > > > > > > > > > > You solve it by not letting a target fully healing back after taking bursts like that. And that requires a radical cut to raw healing. One thing I liked about thief heals a few years back is how they healed almost nothing. You used Withdraw to evade something, not to actually heal yourself back up. Same with Hide in Shadows, it was mainly tool to maintain stealth... now it heals like double what it used to, just look at its version history. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What the hell are you talking about? Thief heals values *didnt really change* Hide in Shadows got a 15% raw healing buff because no one used it, but to put it in perspective, that changed the total healing from 6000 to 6806. All it got was *800 healing*. Meanwhile Mug provides 2000 healing, and thief doesnt even use it anymore. Thief healing now is *lower* than it was before. And yet thief is just as unkillable. Not because there is too much healing. But because there simply isnt nearly enough damage. > > > > > > > > > > > So TL,DR: too much raw healing, too much CC. It would do the game good if we cut both in half. > > > > > > > > > > In actuality its just too little damage. > > > > > > > > I'm honored to be answered twice, one will suffice next time though. > > > > > > > > > > I missed that both posts were by you. My bad. > > > > > > > Nice long winded way of saying you want oneshot meta damage back. > > > > > > > > > > I find it funny that people keep calling it the "oneshot meta". As if oneshots were a common occurence and not an extreme exception. > > That was literally all I played. Most of what my friends played. Sure it needed some skill to identify your windows, or to pull off a mesmer shatter combo without using macros, but the person getting deleted within 0.5 seconds(or less, worldy impact oneshot lol) does not really care what goes into it. > > And those builds were not very good. Because it turns out if you put all your eggs in one basket, and the enemy then just activates an invuln or block skill, or hell, evades, youre kinda screwed. Funny thing is, you could probably still make builds like that right now. They just still wouldnt be bad. > > > So for me it was 100% of my matches which could skew my perception, but most of the time I had to watch out for enemies who could oneshot me, so eh... I'd say it was pretty common in plat 2/3 on EU roughly a year prior to this post. > > Being theoretically *able* to oneshot and it being a oneshot meta are 2 very different things. Its theoretically possible to get ToD'd in FighterZ, but that doesnt make FighterZ a ToD game, because it almost never actually happens. The threat is there, but you could avoid it just as easily. Thats why calling it a oneshot meta is silly. > You can try to nitpick this point all you want, I got my Ruthless Legend title playing strictly meme oneshots and nothing else. Which meant I was in the upper 10% of seriuos pvp players by doing "theoretical" oneshots and putting them on "theoretical" respawn. A build doesn't even need to be that good once it has the potential to oneshot. If you secured a kill, just being a body on the battlefield for the next 30 seconds means you're outperforming the enemy team who lost one of theirs. > > > snip > > > > Considering that we have a _medium damage&high sustain_ meta, I'd like you to explain how a _medium damage&below medium sustain_ scenario gameplay would be braindead and spammy, compared to what we have now. Cause I'm 100% sure the opposite will happen, so whats your reasoning? > > > > > > Yeah except thats not what we have. What we have is a medium-low sustain and *very* low damage meta. Damage right now is below the previous lowest point in the entire games history. What youre proposing is an *extremely* low sustain and *very* low damage meta. What do you think happens when you have a meta like that? Ive played games like that before. Its exactly what I said above. Its the *worst* kind of meta you can have by a wide margin. The only skill-based thing that remains is macro, and good luck getting macro to work in solo Q. > > > > Way to not answer the question. Round two: We measure effective damage(only stuff that lands) and we get the value X. We do the same for sustain(this is a hard science people, take notes this will be on the test) and we measure a value above X. Lowering sustain to the extent that its comfortably below X would be an improvement over the current meta according to me. You stated it would have the opposite effect. ELABORATE ON WHY. PLEASE. > > I did answer the question. The answer was one that goes against what youre saying, so you ignore it. But if you want that *specific* part answered, and not "is my solution the best possible one?" (its not, its a *lot* worse than just reverting), sure, I can answer that specific part as well. So right now there is obviously *no* skill involved in doing damage. You just spam off cooldown. Now, if you reduce sustain, that doesnt change of course. Doing damage remains entirely skillless. However, right now, since sustain is still actually at least worth a kitten, instead of being essentially non-existent like you propose, there is *some* skill in interrupting key defensive and sustain skills in a situation where you outnumber (in a 1v1 theyre not dying either way). Your suggestion removes that last sliver of skill that exists. At that point all youre doing is turning PvP into little more than an auto-battler. So question was: how does lowering sustain below damage is bad for the game? And your answer: because then interrupting healskills is no longer considered a skilled play... What? Okay there is clearly no strong argument I need to consider here. I was curios just in case I might missed something, but even if I did, that relevation won't be coming from you. On dealing damage requiring no skill: the better the enemies are, the harder it is to land damage on them. This is not even up for debate, dealing damage requiring no skill is objectively false, and sadly everything else you derived from this idea is moot aswell. This was an insanely out of touch thing to say, not something I'd expect from someone who's been around as much as you... but hey, I'll be waiting for you in plat 2/3 next season, and you'll get see for yourself what I meant by saying landing damage actually requiring skill! It's actually really nice up here, matches are suprisingly balanced even with duoQ-s around. Happy new year!

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > You do not solve this problem by buffing damage back so I can 100-0 instead of 100-40. > > > I'd rather not be accused to putting words in your mouth, so first I'd just like to clarify what's being said here. > > Are you stating that taking someone from 100-40 in a burst is commonplace in the current meta? Would that not put it within the realm of possibility to chip your opponent to 60% HP and 60-0 them in a burst? And if so, is that not precisely what you've been asking for? The need to soften your target up before bursting them? > > > Neither will a partial revert achive anything, who cares if my target got healed back from 20% instead of 40%? He's back to full... same outcome. > > If making a comparison, it's standard practice to make sure all other variables remain constant. Otherwise, you'll reach faulty conclusions such as stating that a 80% heal = a 60% heal. > > If you're going to compare both scenarios. It would be advisable to start from 20% in both scenarios. In which case the comparison would look like this: > > In Example A: The target heals from 20% hp to 100% HP an 80% heal > > In Example B The target heals from 20% hp to 80% hp a 60% heal. > > Taken a step further, if this scenario were to repeat itself, Target A would survive indefinately wheras target B would eventually die. > > Example A. Target takes 80% hp. Drops to 20%. Heals 80% hp. Returns to 100%. Process loops indefinitely. > > Example B. Target takes 80% hp. Drops to 20% Hp. Heals 60% Hp. Returns to 80% Hp. Takes 80% Hp. Target B dies. > > It's not the same sceanrio. > > While you are definitely not putting words in my mouth, I have no idea what you're actually doing right now. A target that recieves less healing than damage over time dies, thats correct... cool?

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > Instead of nerfing sustain again, we need to bring damage back up a tad and reduce the cooldown of #2 skills. Both of these changes were done to slow down the game, make choices more deliberate, but they went too far in their intended goal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lower weapon cooldowns, raise damage across the board. Bring damage back to heavily telegraphed CC skills like Executioner's slap, Prime light poke, drop the squeaker, big ol' fart, and backscratcher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each of these tweaks should have followed the feb patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We've need to stop trying to solve issues by nerfing what's directly in front of our face and instead ask how it got there in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > Both damage and sustain were so high that attrition style gameplay did not exist. You stacked vitality/thoughness (or both) to survive oneshots, not to deal with pressure. > > > > > > Damage was drasticly lowered in february, and then some. Oneshots are gone from competetive PvP, they are banished to unranked meme build status. > > > > > > Which was the purpose of the patch, good on A-net. However sustain bunkers are a thing now. You sit on the node(often with 1 another bunker buddy of yours), and you rotate through your defenses. It almost doesn't matter whats trying to attack you. As long as you move out of the most concentrated AoE-s and avoid getting 5v2-d, you can easily draw any fight out to eternity. > > > > > > Sustain is too high, period. The gamemode is about holding/contesting nodes, if any build can just sit on it, it's bad for the game. There should be an intricate dance of jumping on/off the capture point to hold, avoiding pressure, faking out bursts, coordinating spikes... not this braindead "lets just tank everything while we spam defensive rotation and heals" that most of my matches with plat 2+ players devolve into. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd propose to shift supports from raw healing towards damage mitigation. Of course every support could still heal some, but guardians could excel at spamming protection/aegis, necromancers could be the king of condition transfers, druids could mix healing with outgoing buffs/mightstacks etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point would be that once you land damage, it matters. Currently the initial midfight 4v4 can go on for minutes. People dipping below 50%, just to get topped off seconds later. This shouldn't be a thing. Healthbars should generally go downwards. > > > > > > > > > >snip > > > > > But as I said, Anet went too far with reducing damage, increasing cooldowns, and nerfing damage on crowd control. Every time we reach a point where healthbars generally go downwards, people complain about the class(es) doing the damage. If every sustain decrease is met with an equal or greater damage decrease, the problem will never be fixed. > > > > > > > > > >snip > > > > > > > > The meta we had before was more like an FPS, it was more about predictions and reaction times. Fun, but not really what an MMO should be. So a-net started shifting it towards a different balance, where fights last longer, and lacking superior reaction times can be made up with good tactical decisions. > > > > > > > > > > Not really? The nature of the sidenoder fights didnt really change. What changed is that fights that lasted 30 seconds to a minute on average now last 15 minutes on average unless +1d. Or in simpler terms, no one dies. > > > > > > > You need way lower damage, and even lower sustain to achive fights last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying. The current sustain is too high for that. Ever time unranked matchmaking decides im the one fill up that last spot in a match with top 50 premades, I often spend the entire match rotating from fight to fight because we cannot kill anything. Sure healthbars go down, but whoever took my burst and went down to 40%-ish, gets covered in boons and healed back up to full in 2 seconds. > > > > > > No. If you want fights that last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying, you simply need to revert every non-QoL change made since and including the february megapatch. Its as easy as that. If you just keep trying to cut damage and sustain more, you get a spammy game with no skill or tactics involved, that is so unfathomably boring I cant see why anyone would put themselves through it. > > > > > > > You do not solve this problem by buffing damage back so I can 100-0 instead of 100-40. Neither will a partial revert achive anything, who cares if my target got healed back from 20% instead of 40%? He's back to full... same outcome. > > > > > > Yes you do solve the problem by buffing damage back up. In fact, thats the *only* solution. > > > > > > > You solve it by not letting a target fully healing back after taking bursts like that. And that requires a radical cut to raw healing. One thing I liked about thief heals a few years back is how they healed almost nothing. You used Withdraw to evade something, not to actually heal yourself back up. Same with Hide in Shadows, it was mainly tool to maintain stealth... now it heals like double what it used to, just look at its version history. > > > > > > > > > > What the hell are you talking about? Thief heals values *didnt really change* Hide in Shadows got a 15% raw healing buff because no one used it, but to put it in perspective, that changed the total healing from 6000 to 6806. All it got was *800 healing*. Meanwhile Mug provides 2000 healing, and thief doesnt even use it anymore. Thief healing now is *lower* than it was before. And yet thief is just as unkillable. Not because there is too much healing. But because there simply isnt nearly enough damage. > > > > > > > So TL,DR: too much raw healing, too much CC. It would do the game good if we cut both in half. > > > > > > In actuality its just too little damage. > > > > I'm honored to be answered twice, one will suffice next time though. > > > > I missed that both posts were by you. My bad. > > > Nice long winded way of saying you want oneshot meta damage back. > > > > I find it funny that people keep calling it the "oneshot meta". As if oneshots were a common occurence and not an extreme exception. That was literally all I played. Most of what my friends played. Sure it needed some skill to identify your windows, or to pull off a mesmer shatter combo without using macros, but the person getting deleted within 0.5 seconds(or less, worldy impact oneshot lol) does not really care what goes into it. So for me it was 100% of my matches which could skew my perception, but most of the time I had to watch out for enemies who could oneshot me, so eh... I'd say it was pretty common in plat 2/3 on EU roughly a year prior to this post. > snip > > Considering that we have a _medium damage&high sustain_ meta, I'd like you to explain how a _medium damage&below medium sustain_ scenario gameplay would be braindead and spammy, compared to what we have now. Cause I'm 100% sure the opposite will happen, so whats your reasoning? > > Yeah except thats not what we have. What we have is a medium-low sustain and *very* low damage meta. Damage right now is below the previous lowest point in the entire games history. What youre proposing is an *extremely* low sustain and *very* low damage meta. What do you think happens when you have a meta like that? Ive played games like that before. Its exactly what I said above. Its the *worst* kind of meta you can have by a wide margin. The only skill-based thing that remains is macro, and good luck getting macro to work in solo Q. Way to not answer the question. Round two: We measure effective damage(only stuff that lands) and we get the value X. We do the same for sustain(this is a hard science people, take notes this will be on the test) and we measure a value above X. Lowering sustain to the extent that its comfortably below X would be an improvement over the current meta according to me. You stated it would have the opposite effect. ELABORATE ON WHY. PLEASE.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > Instead of nerfing sustain again, we need to bring damage back up a tad and reduce the cooldown of #2 skills. Both of these changes were done to slow down the game, make choices more deliberate, but they went too far in their intended goal. > > > > > > > > > > Lower weapon cooldowns, raise damage across the board. Bring damage back to heavily telegraphed CC skills like Executioner's slap, Prime light poke, drop the squeaker, big ol' fart, and backscratcher. > > > > > > > > > > Each of these tweaks should have followed the feb patch. > > > > > > > > > > We've need to stop trying to solve issues by nerfing what's directly in front of our face and instead ask how it got there in the first place. > > > > > > > > Both damage and sustain were so high that attrition style gameplay did not exist. You stacked vitality/thoughness (or both) to survive oneshots, not to deal with pressure. > > > > Damage was drasticly lowered in february, and then some. Oneshots are gone from competetive PvP, they are banished to unranked meme build status. > > > > Which was the purpose of the patch, good on A-net. However sustain bunkers are a thing now. You sit on the node(often with 1 another bunker buddy of yours), and you rotate through your defenses. It almost doesn't matter whats trying to attack you. As long as you move out of the most concentrated AoE-s and avoid getting 5v2-d, you can easily draw any fight out to eternity. > > > > Sustain is too high, period. The gamemode is about holding/contesting nodes, if any build can just sit on it, it's bad for the game. There should be an intricate dance of jumping on/off the capture point to hold, avoiding pressure, faking out bursts, coordinating spikes... not this braindead "lets just tank everything while we spam defensive rotation and heals" that most of my matches with plat 2+ players devolve into. > > > > > > > > I'd propose to shift supports from raw healing towards damage mitigation. Of course every support could still heal some, but guardians could excel at spamming protection/aegis, necromancers could be the king of condition transfers, druids could mix healing with outgoing buffs/mightstacks etc. > > > > > > > > The point would be that once you land damage, it matters. Currently the initial midfight 4v4 can go on for minutes. People dipping below 50%, just to get topped off seconds later. This shouldn't be a thing. Healthbars should generally go downwards. > > > > > >snip > > > But as I said, Anet went too far with reducing damage, increasing cooldowns, and nerfing damage on crowd control. Every time we reach a point where healthbars generally go downwards, people complain about the class(es) doing the damage. If every sustain decrease is met with an equal or greater damage decrease, the problem will never be fixed. > > > > > >snip > > > > The meta we had before was more like an FPS, it was more about predictions and reaction times. Fun, but not really what an MMO should be. So a-net started shifting it towards a different balance, where fights last longer, and lacking superior reaction times can be made up with good tactical decisions. > > > > Not really? The nature of the sidenoder fights didnt really change. What changed is that fights that lasted 30 seconds to a minute on average now last 15 minutes on average unless +1d. Or in simpler terms, no one dies. > > > You need way lower damage, and even lower sustain to achive fights last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying. The current sustain is too high for that. Ever time unranked matchmaking decides im the one fill up that last spot in a match with top 50 premades, I often spend the entire match rotating from fight to fight because we cannot kill anything. Sure healthbars go down, but whoever took my burst and went down to 40%-ish, gets covered in boons and healed back up to full in 2 seconds. > > No. If you want fights that last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying, you simply need to revert every non-QoL change made since and including the february megapatch. Its as easy as that. If you just keep trying to cut damage and sustain more, you get a spammy game with no skill or tactics involved, that is so unfathomably boring I cant see why anyone would put themselves through it. > > > You do not solve this problem by buffing damage back so I can 100-0 instead of 100-40. Neither will a partial revert achive anything, who cares if my target got healed back from 20% instead of 40%? He's back to full... same outcome. > > Yes you do solve the problem by buffing damage back up. In fact, thats the *only* solution. > > > You solve it by not letting a target fully healing back after taking bursts like that. And that requires a radical cut to raw healing. One thing I liked about thief heals a few years back is how they healed almost nothing. You used Withdraw to evade something, not to actually heal yourself back up. Same with Hide in Shadows, it was mainly tool to maintain stealth... now it heals like double what it used to, just look at its version history. > > > > What the hell are you talking about? Thief heals values *didnt really change* Hide in Shadows got a 15% raw healing buff because no one used it, but to put it in perspective, that changed the total healing from 6000 to 6806. All it got was *800 healing*. Meanwhile Mug provides 2000 healing, and thief doesnt even use it anymore. Thief healing now is *lower* than it was before. And yet thief is just as unkillable. Not because there is too much healing. But because there simply isnt nearly enough damage. > > > So TL,DR: too much raw healing, too much CC. It would do the game good if we cut both in half. > > In actuality its just too little damage. I'm honored to be answered twice, one will suffice next time though. Nice long winded way of saying you want oneshot meta damage back. I think I explained myself clearly. With lower levels of damage, you can still get kills/force disengages if the sustain is even lower. You didn't refute it in any way, you just wrote "but damage though" 3 different ways. Considering that we have a _medium damage&high sustain_ meta, I'd like you to explain how a _medium damage&below medium sustain_ scenario gameplay would be braindead and spammy, compared to what we have now. Cause I'm 100% sure the opposite will happen, so whats your reasoning?

> @"Artyrim.1945" said: > I'm a noob and after playing pvp for few weeks all I can say is : AOE AOE AOE AOE AOE AOE for win . And if the class has aoe cond skills is even better > Skills? Aim? Tactics? Assist ? Who cares! > Just have a team with 2-3 Aoes like pala and ren and you don't need a brain to win. > Ofc I go alone vs 2-3 people but they don't target me just spam aoe/ aoe with cond and they can kill me.. Is really frustrating to loss just because this ,when you can own them in a 1 vs 2-3 without aoe ( as mesmer), my stealth is almost useless and my clones can't stay alive for 1 sec... > > > Is the organized high end pvp just a spam of aoe ?? You have not reached "high end pvp" just yet. You're calling burn guardians "pala", thats how I know. AoE spam is only effective in low end PvP, against newbies and baddies. If you stick to the game, you keep playing matches and actually try to improve, you'll fight better players, and the number of AoE-s will go down. Because "good" players know not to stand in red circles, so your enemies will be using them less. If you want to see what high end pvp looks like, you must improve a lot. Doing stuff like engaging enemies 1v2 or 1v3, summoning your clones into enemy AoE... I think even you know that whatever happened next is on you. You walked up on them, you threw your clones into those AoE-s. When I play mesmer, I wait for an opportunity to land my burst with my clones. You cannot just blindly summon them into the chaos of a teamfight and expect them to be around 10 seconds later when you have shatter off cooldown. So yeah, being new and trying what works and what doesn't is fun, just be aware that what you see around you has nothing to do with actual "high end pvp". AoE serves as area denial in actual competetive PvP, and not go to damage source, because people just don't get hit by it that much.

> @"Firebeard.1746" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > The meta we had before was more like an FPS, it was more about predictions and reaction times. Fun, but not really what an MMO should be. So a-net started shifting it towards a different balance, where fights last longer, and lacking superior reaction times can be made up with good tactical decisions. > > > Have you played PVP? condi meta is still burning people down fast, and it's annoying that some classes like engi have their condi convert abilites an a really long cast time but other classes can do it passively or quickly with traits and/or other abilities. > "started shifting it towards a different balance"... I did not imply that we're there yet, or that condi is good/bad or anything... what point are you trying to make?

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > Instead of nerfing sustain again, we need to bring damage back up a tad and reduce the cooldown of #2 skills. Both of these changes were done to slow down the game, make choices more deliberate, but they went too far in their intended goal. > > > > > > Lower weapon cooldowns, raise damage across the board. Bring damage back to heavily telegraphed CC skills like Executioner's slap, Prime light poke, drop the squeaker, big ol' fart, and backscratcher. > > > > > > Each of these tweaks should have followed the feb patch. > > > > > > We've need to stop trying to solve issues by nerfing what's directly in front of our face and instead ask how it got there in the first place. > > > > Both damage and sustain were so high that attrition style gameplay did not exist. You stacked vitality/thoughness (or both) to survive oneshots, not to deal with pressure. > > Damage was drasticly lowered in february, and then some. Oneshots are gone from competetive PvP, they are banished to unranked meme build status. > > Which was the purpose of the patch, good on A-net. However sustain bunkers are a thing now. You sit on the node(often with 1 another bunker buddy of yours), and you rotate through your defenses. It almost doesn't matter whats trying to attack you. As long as you move out of the most concentrated AoE-s and avoid getting 5v2-d, you can easily draw any fight out to eternity. > > Sustain is too high, period. The gamemode is about holding/contesting nodes, if any build can just sit on it, it's bad for the game. There should be an intricate dance of jumping on/off the capture point to hold, avoiding pressure, faking out bursts, coordinating spikes... not this braindead "lets just tank everything while we spam defensive rotation and heals" that most of my matches with plat 2+ players devolve into. > > > > I'd propose to shift supports from raw healing towards damage mitigation. Of course every support could still heal some, but guardians could excel at spamming protection/aegis, necromancers could be the king of condition transfers, druids could mix healing with outgoing buffs/mightstacks etc. > > > > The point would be that once you land damage, it matters. Currently the initial midfight 4v4 can go on for minutes. People dipping below 50%, just to get topped off seconds later. This shouldn't be a thing. Healthbars should generally go downwards. > >snip > But as I said, Anet went too far with reducing damage, increasing cooldowns, and nerfing damage on crowd control. Every time we reach a point where healthbars generally go downwards, people complain about the class(es) doing the damage. If every sustain decrease is met with an equal or greater damage decrease, the problem will never be fixed. > >snip The meta we had before was more like an FPS, it was more about predictions and reaction times. Fun, but not really what an MMO should be. So a-net started shifting it towards a different balance, where fights last longer, and lacking superior reaction times can be made up with good tactical decisions. You need way lower damage, and even lower sustain to achive fights last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying. The current sustain is too high for that. Ever time unranked matchmaking decides im the one fill up that last spot in a match with top 50 premades, I often spend the entire match rotating from fight to fight because we cannot kill anything. Sure healthbars go down, but whoever took my burst and went down to 40%-ish, gets covered in boons and healed back up to full in 2 seconds. You do not solve this problem by buffing damage back so I can 100-0 instead of 100-40. Neither will a partial revert achive anything, who cares if my target got healed back from 20% instead of 40%? He's back to full... same outcome. You solve it by not letting a target fully healing back after taking bursts like that. And that requires a radical cut to raw healing. One thing I liked about thief heals a few years back is how they healed almost nothing. You used Withdraw to evade something, not to actually heal yourself back up. Same with Hide in Shadows, it was mainly tool to maintain stealth... now it heals like double what it used to, just look at its version history. So TL,DR: too much raw healing, too much CC. It would do the game good if we cut both in half.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > Instead of nerfing sustain again, we need to bring damage back up a tad and reduce the cooldown of #2 skills. Both of these changes were done to slow down the game, make choices more deliberate, but they went too far in their intended goal. > > Lower weapon cooldowns, raise damage across the board. Bring damage back to heavily telegraphed CC skills like Executioner's slap, Prime light poke, drop the squeaker, big ol' fart, and backscratcher. > > Each of these tweaks should have followed the feb patch. > > We've need to stop trying to solve issues by nerfing what's directly in front of our face and instead ask how it got there in the first place. Both damage and sustain were so high that attrition style gameplay did not exist. You stacked vitality/thoughness (or both) to survive oneshots, not to deal with pressure. Damage was drasticly lowered in february, and then some. Oneshots are gone from competetive PvP, they are banished to unranked meme build status. Which was the purpose of the patch, good on A-net. However sustain bunkers are a thing now. You sit on the node(often with 1 another bunker buddy of yours), and you rotate through your defenses. It almost doesn't matter whats trying to attack you. As long as you move out of the most concentrated AoE-s and avoid getting 5v2-d, you can easily draw any fight out to eternity. Sustain is too high, period. The gamemode is about holding/contesting nodes, if any build can just sit on it, it's bad for the game. There should be an intricate dance of jumping on/off the capture point to hold, avoiding pressure, faking out bursts, coordinating spikes... not this braindead "lets just tank everything while we spam defensive rotation and heals" that most of my matches with plat 2+ players devolve into. I'd propose to shift supports from raw healing towards damage mitigation. Of course every support could still heal some, but guardians could excel at spamming protection/aegis, necromancers could be the king of condition transfers, druids could mix healing with outgoing buffs/mightstacks etc. The point would be that once you land damage, it matters. Currently the initial midfight 4v4 can go on for minutes. People dipping below 50%, just to get topped off seconds later. This shouldn't be a thing. Healthbars should generally go downwards.

> @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > Guild Wars 1 only had knockdown(and snare, but thats not really CC). Imagine how fun that was, getting chain CC-d meant in some special cases you couldn't get up. At all. For 10+ seconds. And then you died. > > What we have now is actually an improvement. Not saying it couldn't be better, but as far as "design" goes, do you have any proposals? > > how is that even relevant The OP states that both knockdown and launch are poorly designed CC-s. That's implying there is something better. I'm curious what that better design is.

Guild Wars 1 only had knockdown(and snare, but thats not really CC). Imagine how fun that was, getting chain CC-d meant in some special cases you couldn't get up. At all. For 10+ seconds. And then you died. What we have now is actually an improvement. Not saying it couldn't be better, but as far as "design" goes, do you have any proposals?

> @"Blake.8476" said: > My suggestion is to remove damage from conditions and instead make them like utilities, For example (poison can reduce healing but not damage you, burning applies vulnerability, bleeding makes you lose endurance, torment makes you see clones, confusion makes your weapon abilities swap places etc) conditions are currently ticking away your health at an alarming rate (burning condition especially) Then there is the heaIth and toughness perk that condi builds gain that power builds do not get as much of, For instance power dragonhunter has 11k-16khp where a condi dragonhunter has 21k-25k. I do understand that making this change would be a very big rework of amulets, runes, sigil's, classes and weapons. but maybe make an extra game mode (condition free matches/power builds only) like an event... and test it, Get response from the community and decide whether to change for good or not. Trust me SPVP will become balanced and if not then you tried at least without impacting the current system, People complain about condi builds (revnant, mirage, necro) Then arenanet nerfs it and a new condi build is made, The process repeats itself, Take care and thank you for your consideration. Guild Wars 2 for life! How would this make PvP balanced? I cant even imagine this change working out. Even modified a bit here and there, it's just way out there. Example: condi core necromancer. It does basicly no power damage. You nullify its offense through conditions, compensate by doubling its health... and you get a 100K health monster(shroud and HP combined) that weakens, cripples and fears you, but does absolutely no damage. What about this would be fun or balanced? Not to mention this would break PvE aswell. If you want changes this radical in an 8 year old game, you're better off making a new one.

Unless you manage to pull off a gimmick like trap enemies in a preparation and burst them with thief guild, thief is absolutely useless in 2v2. And trust me, you won't pull that off against decent enemies. Thief is good at being mobile and nothing else. 2v2 does not need mobility.

Consume plasma and Essense Sap nerfs: I'm okay with those. SoA nerf was unnecesseary, but its still a bloated signet so I don't really care. IA nerf is a meme. Increasing initiative costs was a bad idea in 2015, and guess what it's still a bad idea 5 years later. Nerf the skills effects instead, rifle deadeye is already a degenerate 2 spamming bot, why do you push every other thief spec in that direction aswell?

The problem with holo is absolutely holosmith itself. Forge makes up for the weaponswap, an extra set of skills that give you mobility, CC, AoE cleave. Also you get extra sustain through heat theraphy. You can have a kit that just does too many things too well all at once. If a build does everything, it should be equally bad at those things. My TLDR idea for balancing holo is to delete Heat Therapy. Make it into a glass cannon. Make going in full yolo damage mode worth it. Or speccing into full defense worth it. But hovering between the two should mean you can do neither.

Guardian has its support options nerfed to the point that everything is filled with burn guardians... lets complain some more about its healing capabilities lol. Boonstrip and boon conversion are your friends... half of the classes can spec into full on boonhate: shiro/mallyx revenant, spellbreaker, mesmer (any spec) and on top of all that: necromancer. If your team cant break through the wall of boons, maybe play any of the above...

Not having all this information on the UI was a concious decision by the original team that made this game 2007-2012. You were supposed to train your eye to recognise animations, effects etc. That is what separates good and bad players in this game (at least what should, according to orignial intentions). Now over time the ever changing team made many 180-s on important things, but I really hope they do not cave to these ideas. If you want every info on the UI, go play WoW, or any other MMO which can be played without graphics. The visual clutter needs some sorting, specs like renegade are really adding to the chaos, some really important skills have to small visual cues, but you absolutely do not fix these problems by overloading the UI with info.

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"bkv.2371" said: > > Is a rework even on the table? > As far as we know, they have been on the table since February. > > However, for all we know, said table might be in some remote location that Arenanet forgot about. We as players should really come togheter and help A-net search for the table.