sigur.9453

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > Dude... Seriously?

> > > > If the fact that you already have a easy mode for Fractals doesn't stop people from complaining about fractals difficulty/elitism, then a easy mode for dungeons surely won't stop people from complaining about the same things for dungeons....

> > > 1. it would stop _some_ of them.

> > > 2. it might bring more people to the mode

> > > (also, you meand raids instead of dungeons, right?)

> > >

> > > Also, notice, that complains about elitism in fractals are a relatively new thing (at least to the degree we're seeing now). They are a result of the game _changing_. Before that, almost all the complains about difficulty of high-tier fractals were targetting very specific mechanics (like, for example, the clown car dredge fight), and not in general (like being too difficult), but for more specific reasons (in te clow car case because it was too long and too boring).

> > >

> > > Basically, the complains now are not affected by existence of lower tiers, because they are not exactly complains about t4 difficulty. They are complains about _increase_ of t4 difficulty. They are not about existence of elitism in high tier fractals. They are about _increase_ of elitism and toxicity in high-tier fractals.

> > >

> > > So, apples and oranges.

> >

> > 1. I doubt it. Seriously, anyone that's serious enough about raids will, sooner or later, be doing raids with or without the higher difficulty, especially since some of them are quite easy already. Escort, for example, is easier than any T4 fractal, and is a good way to introduce people to raids, get the masteries, and some of the rewards.

> > 2. See above.

> > 3. Yes, that was a brain fart, i meant raids.

> >

> > Not really, there's always been complains. The thing is, people decided to hate on raids, and since that's a dead horse if there is one, the same forum warriros started veering towards fractals. The heart of those complaints is always the same. People want to take their open world barely effective builds (seriously you can always spot the guys with fractal/raid gear in World bosses/encounters, because they have 50% of the DPS) to what's supposed to be hard content. And when they fail, or people get tired of carrying those people and kick them, they complain.

> >

> > Raids is the same thing, and again, while it would be nice to have a "Raids Light", kind of like Dungeon Story Modes, i seriously doubt it would make a dent on people complaining and whatnot, because the true rewards would always be behind the content they can't complete because they can't bring themselves to try and improve their game.

> >

> > Also i'd argue that the _increase_ in toxicity and elitism in fractals, is actually not a thing? If anything atm fractals are way more chill than they were at various periods in the game.

>

> Having the easier mode may help them improve their game though, by introducing them to the mechanics.

The mechanics are already there on the "real" encounters. I do not see any use off learning mechanics that would be completly different/more punishing.

Todays raiders managed to learn the fights this way, so should the others, sry.

I even like the learning process when a new wing is released. In the end it even feels more rewarding when you managed to get your first kill. (especially with completly strangers you joined on the ts, and suddenly we all love each other)

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> First I need to be sure what's the difference between fractal and dungeon? Aside agony.

Thank you, exactly my thought

same here since hot (german client)

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > Me: Other ways?

> > > Man: You could try to find 9 other people like you and smash the door in.

> > > Me: And this works?

> > > Man: Never seen it work, but many tried it.

> > > Me: So i cant enter.

> > > Man: Looks like it.

> > > Me: Well thank you for your time.

> > > Man: Oh one last thing. Next time it will be 300 Li.

> >

> > So how did all the current raiders start out?

> >

> > Stop trying to skip ahead of the line. You have no experience so wanting to join experienced groups obviously won't work.

> >

> > Join training runs or normal guilds that raid (no applying to Snow Crows, Quantify or some other high skill raiding guild does not qualify as "trying to join a guild").

> >

> > Your problem is not that people are wanting 200 LI. Your problem is that you are unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually gain experience but instead want to leech off of other people carrying through the raid getting taken along for a ride on their work.

>

> When current raiders started out nobody asked for 100 LI. People just asked to bring class XY and the right gear.

in the first week, absolutly, but not completly true. there were already "<50% exp" requirements on lfg on release day.

requirements change over time, which is only logical.

> @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:

> > @"Raguel.9402" said:

> > > @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:

> > > The day they remove distortion sharing more than half the raiders wont be able to raid anymore..

> > > I see lots of elitist players that think they are good and their dps is the best failing at dodging many mechanics.

> > > So sure nerf distortion and lets see those 900 li players die at vg, sloth and die at Matthias like scrubs, I would actually enjoy seeing that..

> > >

> > > And yeah the w5 escort stealth needs to be nerfed, yesterday saw 3 scrappers doing the event and 7 ppl just gg before the event started.

> > > Is the first time a raid encounter that gives LI is this broken.

> > >

> >

> > Most players still cannot reliably distort anything.

> >

> > Doing greens on vg isn’t hard. It’s just a nuisance. Good players will always be able to dodge what’s dodgeable.

> >

> > One Li per week is such a broken farm... xD

>

> If the chrono doesn't distort or someone block sloth shake more than half the squad will go down, I guess this proves more than half the raiders are not good players.

>

> And yeah the river gives LI,4g, ascended, mini, Its not a farm but its free loot for no effort. I don't understand how ppl think its ok to keep it that way, I guess is the same ppl that exploited w4 cm on the first week...

>

sick proofs you got there.

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> How about VG is weaver out dps:ing tempest badly there too?

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15438

if i am able to read correctly, weaver is on average 6k dps ahead ( which is aroung 60% more dmg than tempest) which of course doenst mean that every weaver is automaticly better then a tempest player

edit: those where the 90th percentile numbers, average would be 5k ish diffenence which would even rise the difference to about 70-80% (i suck at math)

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> Hey. After pof i havent take part single raid, i have around 70LI atm. Am i still wanted in raids with my elementalist? I can play as Staff or dagger tempest and my rotations etc are at lvl where they should Be but im not that good with weaver. So do tempest still do OK in raids?

tempest is "niche" at the moment at best, while its still ok on KC for example (still outdpsd by weaver though) and i used it for throughing orb at the new wing, which worked pretty well. there are also a lot of temp healers atm, but i guess you are looking for pure dps builds, in which case, weaver is overall better.

condi classes as a whole are atm more desired in raid (we will see what happens on tuesday) but try out the weaver, it may seam complicated at first but when "it clicks" you can have a lot of fun with it.

i guess you can still try it out, but be prepared to be outdps´d by other specs and possible outcomes because of it.

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.

> > > > > > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.

> > > > > > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > what encounter are we talking here about?

> > > > > > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.

> > > > > > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

> > > >

> > > > well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense)

> > >

> > > It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss.

> >

> > so you are criticizing the "meta mentality" and the dps meter as proof for it? in this case i have to say some build work better on bosses, and others are, well abysall.

> > and as mention above, first its on the player him/herself to judge if used build is good for this encounter, and then secondly the commander to check for her/himself with the use of the dps meter if said player is contibuting in a desired way.

> > since it was aparently a wow incident i can´t realy talk about it, if this would have happen in gw2 it would sound to me like :

> > commander let you join with a not optimal build for this encounter, and after checking his given metrics he decided to let you go (both caused by the availability of dps meters)

>

> It's more about expressing my continued confusion over the insistence of running only meta builds in raids. I could understand if the bosses were so hard that you needed a specific teamcomp in order to beat it, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. When you can beat a boss with as little as 2 people, who cares what other people you bring to the fight? Surely it's better to bring a player who knows the mechanics of the fight and can execute them over someone who doesn't, regardless of what build they are using.

>

> Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? Remember that I'm not talking about speed runs here, but basic clears. If you haven't tried, and are just going by the word of the top guilds, then in my opinion you are a sheep blindly following the shepherd. I'm sorry if that term offends anyone but I can't think of another term to describe such people.

you can clear almost every boss with almost every setup, true.

but you need to emphatise on other people to.

the phrase "speedrun" doesn´t only translate to, well, being fast, it also translates to, easiest way to do it. (more dps = less mechanics)

other then that there are speedclear tactics and "pug tactics" where "easy kill" is also a goal. (deimos middle, one extra healer,...) where you are also "forced" to adapt.

in the end its on the commander to deside witch way to follow, and of course, again of you, because you decide which groups you join. you can in fact still "play how you want", but not with everyone you might want. and of course possibly not with the same outcome.

i would fall in the sheep catagoury as you put it, i follow build guides because i have every class but no knowledge of every class. yet with this guides im able to contribute to the team in in efficient (=fun for me) way. does that make me a sheep? does following anyones guidens or help turn you into a sheep? doe i have less fun playing those builds? its button mashing after all, whatever build you use.

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > i like to play at my pace with my build and for fun, raids are filled with ppl who only want speed runs and are way to serious.

> > i play games to relax, even if it takes 2 hours longer to get trough a raid, as long as it's fun i don't give a single crap.

>

> Want to chime in that me and some of my friends are pretty much the same.

> Last week we did the Arah dungeon for the first time with 3 pugs who also was doing it for the first time.

>

> I will take a wild guess that it's not supposed to take over 2 1/2 hours to beat, right? I'm just wondering.

> But all 5 of us had a wonderful time and was happy when it ended (one reason yeah that it was over, but the whole time we was enjoying the whole map).

>

> Could've seen some of those elitist people getting mad and just leaving because we had no clue on what we were doing.

> When we finally learn what to do, we finished the task easily.

>

> I could at times get annoyed by people though if they don't listen at times.

> Like during one of the fractals with the giant and the fanatics. First time doing it, it was just 3 of us in the Fractal. We noticed that the Fanatics were healing when we went back and forth to the others during one part so I decided that I should just solo one end and the other 2 head to the other side to destroy the seal. When one is gone, they won't have a way to heal the other.

> Told one guy countless times not to stick around near me, but he insisted on staying and then die.

> Because he wasn't helping the other guy... the other guy died. Now I tried to complete it alone and then I die.

>

> This happens about 4 times with the guy simply not listening. In the end the guy left and 2 random people joined up.

> We beat it with 0 problems after that.

>

> I can see at times being annoyed when someone say something (as many of us been there), but when you get to the point of

> "I NEED TOP SKILLED PEOPLE! OPTIMIZED! IF YOU MESS UP BY A NANOSECOND, YOU SHOULD JUST JUMP OFF A CLIFF!" or something.

>

> Those kind of people are... I don't even know what to call them.

>

> Seen those same types of people in PvP where if someone kills them, they start calling them... well let's just say it involve parts of the body and about sucking and how he's such a.... cigarette and so on and so on.

> Just because someone killed him. Then he comes back and the person kills him again and he goes more raging.

>

> I don't understand why some people are like this. If you get this worked up at a game, I think it would be healthier to just stay away from it.

> Heard quite a few stories in the past of guys trying to look for people who beat them in game and then start wanting to fight them in real life.

> That's what it seem those Raid/Many PvP/ and some WvW people are.

you are ignoring the fact that we raid elitist have cleaned those bosses many times before. and most of the wings are on a so called farm status like t4 fractals. its a very fun 2-3 hour activity once a week (even more fun if you do it multipe times to help out some friends)

i spent 10 hours at the first boss of the new wing after finaly killing him (80% of that time with the "toxic pug crowd"), not once was anyone flamed or harrassed in any way.

now one week (or two to be exact) the expactations of your fellow pug raider have naturaly risen. which make sence because we as a community have more experiance with said encounters now.

what you are describing with you first time arah group is exactly what happens in raids when, a new wing is released or you form a beginner raid group. so why are you not doing the same with any raidboss?

you experianced challening content with people with the same knowledge of that content like yourself.

as you said yourself you had a blast, yet you are criticizing "elitist" which want to experience the same., challening content with people with as much experiance than yourself.

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.

> > > > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.

> > > > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

> > > >

> > > > what encounter are we talking here about?

> > > > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.

> > > > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

> > > >

> > >

> > > This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

> >

> > well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense)

>

> It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss.

so you are criticizing the "meta mentality" and the dps meter as proof for it? in this case i have to say some build work better on bosses, and others are, well abysall.

and as mention above, first its on the player him/herself to judge if used build is good for this encounter, and then secondly the commander to check for her/himself with the use of the dps meter if said player is contibuting in a desired way.

since it was aparently a wow incident i can´t realy talk about it, if this would have happen in gw2 it would sound to me like :

commander let you join with a not optimal build for this encounter, and after checking his given metrics he decided to let you go (both caused by the availability of dps meters)

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

> > > > >

> > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

> > > >

> > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.

> > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.

> > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

> > >

> > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

> >

> > what encounter are we talking here about?

> > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.

> > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

> >

>

> This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense)

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > @"Daniel.5428" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

> > > >

> > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

> > > >

> > >

> > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

> > >

> > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

> >

> > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.

> > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.

> > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

>

> It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

what encounter are we talking here about?

if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.

but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @"Daniel.5428" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

> >

> > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

> >

>

> And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

>

> Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.

btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.

to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > Just because dev said sth it doesn't mean people must agree with him :)

> > > > The dev spoke about the design goals for the fractals; that's a fact, not an opinion. Folks might not like it, but that doesn't change what the devs intended.

> > > >

> > > > > If not for constant whining you would never ride a mount in GW2. Or raid :)

> > > > As it turns out, both those things would almost certainly have happened without the whining. The devs apparently always planned to include mounts and just hadn't figured out how they wanted to implement them in an ANet sort of way. Similarly, they were always trying to figure out how to include more challenging content in the game; it just took the time to decide on how.

> > > >

> > >

> > > You have no way to show me if raids and mounts ever happened in GW2 without whining :)

> > >

> > > Also, this whole thread is about not agreeing with devs new vision of fractals and making them into 5man raids so what dev said is irrelevant. We know what are their goals, we can see them in game :)

> >

> > You also don't have any way to proof that it happened because the whining existed but you brought it up so the burden of proof is on your side. And you still need to bring an example for raid like mechanics in fractals. More mechanics per boss and some more AoEs have nothing to do with raids.

>

> The proof is here. Forums were whining about mounts and lack of challenging PvE instances since 2012. Meanwhile there are no raid related metrics before raids were introduced :)

thats no proof though, because we don´t know why/how they make there desicion or how long said features where planned ahead.

But you managed to dodge the other question again. congrats to that.

> @"Lyre.8079" said:

> Well a longer Injury keeps me from playing both... hope that changes 2018

get well soon

http://rti.enjin.com/

fun people there, could be what you are looking for.

but maybe other guilds are interessted too and will reply to your post :)

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

> > >

> > > remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

> > >

> >

> > remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

> >

>

> don't call fractal players "loot greed" then :)

did i? no! :)

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

>

> remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

>

remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > > > @zoomborg.9462 said:

> > > > > > Lul freaking casuals complaining again. This topic has become a meme now, even Anet can't take the complaints srsly at this point.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yah.. Bet Anet can't wait for them to take a stand and walk away in disgust leaving only the real players to enjoy this game in peace.

> > > >

> > > > Open world got an exclusive trinket a few months ago, why do they need another exclusive item now?

> > >

> > > That was LS, not open world.

> >

> > You're being ridiculous.

>

> I always viewed LW as solo instance based content, not Open World, maybe that is what you all call Open world now, but, even so, last I looked anyone could do that content.. so it's hardly exclusive.

>

>

but most of the achievments had to be done in open world maps. im confused. is aurora even real?

more serious: anyone? ignoring those who didn´t logged in during ls releases, they defenitly can´t finish aurora. raids on the other hand...

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > > Challenging is subjective term without any explanation of how anet understands it :)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For some people leaving queensdale can be challenging but I don't think raids are made for them :)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >complains about a subjective definition.

> > > > > > >uses a subjective argument

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We know what anet considers challenging, which is raids in their current form. Get rekt.

> > > > >

> > > > > But mad mentioned that dungeons are challenging content, I am now confused. Even you don't know what anet considers challenging and on what basis :)

> > > >

> > > > You do know that the text for dungeons was written on release day right? A time when Anet genuinely believed that their dungeons were the equivalent to Raids in other mmorpgs. You shouldn't be confused, you said

> > > > > T4s are supposed to be a bit higher yet still casual dungeon-like experience for people not interested in raiding mess

> > > > I'm still waiting for your link that proves T4s are supposed to be casual dungeon-like experience and not challenging content.

> > >

> > > But this text is still there and you used it as a "proof" :)

> > >

> > > I have yet to see a text saying that T4s are supposed to become raids 2.0 for 5 man :)

> >

> > well,they where challenging at this point, but with the new elite specs they became super easy.

> > and again i will ask you :

> > What is raid 2.0? you are dodging this question for a while now.

> > Also: what whould you like to change? how? why?

> > All you are saying is :

> > fractals sucks, please fix.

>

> I already explained in multiple posts what I mean.

do you expect everyone to go through your nearly 1000 (respect!) comments?

since you copy&paste your agenda in every raid/fractal related thread, it shouldn´t be a problem to give us who are not following your posts on a regular basis a little summary?

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > Challenging is subjective term without any explanation of how anet understands it :)

> > > > >

> > > > > For some people leaving queensdale can be challenging but I don't think raids are made for them :)

> > > >

> > > > >complains about a subjective definition.

> > > > >uses a subjective argument

> > > >

> > > > We know what anet considers challenging, which is raids in their current form. Get rekt.

> > >

> > > But mad mentioned that dungeons are challenging content, I am now confused. Even you don't know what anet considers challenging and on what basis :)

> >

> > You do know that the text for dungeons was written on release day right? A time when Anet genuinely believed that their dungeons were the equivalent to Raids in other mmorpgs. You shouldn't be confused, you said

> > > T4s are supposed to be a bit higher yet still casual dungeon-like experience for people not interested in raiding mess

> > I'm still waiting for your link that proves T4s are supposed to be casual dungeon-like experience and not challenging content.

>

> But this text is still there and you used it as a "proof" :)

>

> I have yet to see a text saying that T4s are supposed to become raids 2.0 for 5 man :)

well,they where challenging at this point, but with the new elite specs they became super easy.

and again i will ask you :

What is raid 2.0? you are dodging this question for a while now.

Also: what whould you like to change? how? why?

All you are saying is :

fractals sucks, please fix.

> @Daniel.5428 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > Only thing i will complain for now, that there is no whatsoever communications from anet regarding "things to come" (but i guess after leg. armour debacle, they won´t do that anymore)

>

> The collection 2 will probably be some gold sink to craft something then bring that something to multiple locations. It was the same for Aurora and the legendary armor set. The Second (last collection) was never related to the first one(raid or LS3). Anet do not communicate about raids at all. They just join forum to say congrats to videos about chars or cool drawings, but just check the raid section and you won't find any response at all. They know the things are broken, they leave them like this and they just hope the plebs will spend more cash on their peacock tyranosaurus rexus skin (what is worthing 2k....for that......2k gems for that thing)

>

>

we will see, leg armour had in fact more stages, spread over different wings with 2 complete sets of asc armours before you could actually craft the legendary one.

they could also do 4 precursor rings, one for each following wing (haha, one can dream)

yeah, they prefer the easy side regarding communication, on that we can agree :)

> @Daniel.5428 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > its a random asc. ring. which is basicly free to get nowadays, and as told above, we don´t know yet what else to do. maybe do all cm´s of the new wings. maybe kill every boss 10 times. maybe mining 100 gold nodes. the worth of the precusor (for know) is basicly 500 winterberrys to me.

> >

> > they are free for ALL of us btw. and i think you need to buy an item from the vendor which can only be obtained after you kill dhumm (correct me if i am wrong here)

>

> You need to loot a chest behind Dhuum's throne. That chest was supposed to be seen and available only to the ones who were in the instance when the boss was killed. But for a strange reason, some players can see these chests when they join a cleared instance where they were not part and loot them while the majority cannot see them (so for most of us it works as intended). That is not a free ascended ring, is a precursor for a legendary ring and you cannot buy it from everywhere. Anyway, I am against putting it in raid, I wanted to see it in LS4 like Aurora was for LS3. But even if they put it in raid, it is not ok to give it for free to some players. Raids have to kill a huge boss, with tons of mechanics and a broken orb controll. If you think Dhuum is easy then you never tried it with LFG.

>

>

Never said that dhuum is easy.

But yes, it isn´t working as intended for sure. but as said before, i will start to complain after i see the whole picture.

regarding whatelse we have to do with the precursor (multistaged with folliwing wings?) and regarding other legendary trinkets coming for LS/Wvw/Pvp.

Only thing i will complain for now, that there is no whatsoever communications from anet regarding "things to come" (but i guess after leg. armour debacle, they won´t do that anymore)

> @Daniel.5428 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > it´s actually good, so the not so raid enjoying crowd can also get the ring with not to much dedication (at least the precursor, we don´t know what to do for it in the future)

> > what they don´t get is the special feeling of "the firt down", which is far more rewarding than any loot in my opinion.

>

> If you think is ok to give precursors for free to some of us and make others work for it, then you have really strange point of views.

>

>

its a random asc. ring. which is basicly free to get nowadays, and as told above, we don´t know yet what else to do. maybe do all cm´s of the new wings. maybe kill every boss 10 times. maybe mining 100 gold nodes. the worth of the precusor (for know) is basicly 500 winterberrys to me.

they are free for ALL of us btw. and i think you need to buy an item from the vendor which can only be obtained after you kill dhumm (correct me if i am wrong here)

Edit: cheast after dhuum was/is bugged, and you need to buy it of vendor after defeating him, don´t know if this is still the case, haven´t killed him yet.

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > But that's the whole point - i did like t4s originally. It's the _content_ that changed, not me. The game that i liked is being changed, piece by piece, into one that i find far less fun.

> > > Yes, i did stop doing fractal dailies and now visit that part of the game only very occasionally. That is what i am complaining against - these late changes chased me away from the content i was completely fine with before. **That** is what hurts the most.

> >

> > Again, if you find T4 too much trouble for you, then play T3. There are dailies in T3 too you don't have to play T4 for the dailies. Completely moving away of Fractals when there are so many tiers of difficulty to choose from is illogical. Many people argued, including you, that multiple difficulty tiers were good for a game, I guess it was all a lie.

>

> They are changing T4 difficulty with recent additions. Shattered observatory is the best example. Even for normal mode this fractal is oversaturated mess. CMs are okay as they are intended to be raid like content. T4s are not supposed to be so.

>

> You started with "dont like raids, go fractals". Today it's "dont like new fractals, go lower tier". Tomorrow you gonna tell "leave open world, go play character selection screen".

>

> Anet made huge mistake catering to people like you and enforcing your misguided feel that raiding crowd can usurp and dictate how group content should look in our game. You have raids for raid content - stay there and don't change fractals in raids 2.0.

i will ask again, what is raid 2.0? what recent addions?what would you like to change? how?why?

stating opinions is no solid ground for a civilised discussion.