sigur.9453

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

>

> > And if you go to Snowcrows website... We will see if berserker won't see any use while being at 41k large boss's dps

>

> On most Bosses it probably won't.

> You want to abuse double hits with LB F1, meaning that you need a large Hitbox.

> On Gorseval you kinda want power. While Condi Berzerker might deal more boss DPS, it will slow down the splitphases.

> Sloth will lose every condition during the cc phase, meaning that you have to ramp up again.

> KC, while not a large hitbox, also favors power DPS.

> Samarog won't take damage during the CC Phase and depending on how long your phase takes you have to ramp up again.

> The only boss where it might be better than ele is Dhuum.

>

there will be no boss where berserker war is top dps.

i need help, i dont see the context between raiding and feeding the poor.

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> >

> > If my image does say something, it is purely that scourge (epidemic, better said) is very powerful and does not need to reach high dps to kill things.

>

> If my link does say something, it is purely that weaver is very powerful and does not need to reach high dps to kill things **overall in all raids**, with an actual sample size _over_ n=1.

>

>

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> > > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> > > It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> > > Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

> > >

> > If you compare the actuall numbers for each boss you will see that the "dps race" is 7 : 6 in favour of weaver. So i wouldnt exactly say "signigicantly doing more damage over all raid bosses".

>

> 2%, 3%, hell, even 5% is _not_ significantly .... anything over that (especially if it reaches percentages like 15%), I'd call significant. To put it in perspective: ask a salary raise of 15% from your boss tomorrow and ask how he/she would class that ...

>

Please forget the overall statistics and look at the bosses inndividually. Weaver gains a lot in those statistics since there are bosses (KC,Sloth,Samarog for example) that favours power classes a lot with phase mechanics. The difference on condi favoured bosses isn´t that huge compared to the opposite.

> > > Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

> >

> > I would conclude that scourge without epi bouncing (average joes dont do that) is trash compared to weaver. drasticly spoken.

> > which hopefully brings us back to the topic, that epi is way to powerfull and holds the necro hostage balance wise.

> >

> I completely agree there!!!

> I'm still a _very_ big supporter of having Epi nerfed asap, BUT and exclusively _only_ when this happens with (significant) buffs to Necro in general (PvE) in return!

>

>

Yep, it will need buffs to "carry his weight on its own", i agree.

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > > > > > 

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

> > > >

> > > > ...and? Still doesn't tell anything. Could very well be that the Scourge played superior. Could very well be that the Weavers killed themselves through Retribution and lost dps that way. Could be x, could be y, could be z. There simply isn't enough data for reliable conclusions. I don't get why people overrate dps anyway. The game is about mechanics and sometimes, it's logical to sacrifice dps in favor of mechanics anyway. God forbid if this game knew proper aggro-management and you'd be forced to play more situational.

> > >

> > > This is Gorseval. The only mechanic that matters in this fight is dps. And if a lone scourge can outdps a weaver on this fight, imagine what epi bouncing can do.

> >

> > 

> >

> > We killed it in 4:24 minutes and, as you can see, we didn't even have really good DPS.

>

> Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

>

If you compare the actuall numbers for each boss you will see that the "dps race" is 7 : 6 in favour of weaver. So i wouldnt exactly say "signigicantly doing more damage over all raid bosses".

Surpisingly those where epi bouncing is possible.

I also hope that you understand that power dps is far superior on low healthpool adds but who cares about cleave anyway....

> Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

I would conclude that scourge without epi bouncing (average joes dont do that) is trash compared to weaver. drasticly spoken.

which hopefully brings us back to the topic, that epi is way to powerfull and holds the necro hostage balance wise.

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > > It would be hilarious to see 50man sabetha. In my head i see 50 "nonraiders" try it out and 20 of them dies in first flamewall. Think about all that panic and chaos :D

> > > > >

> > > > > They wouldn't fit in the platform, or would cover it entirely, so no kiter and RIP w/ flamewall xD

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, but how long would Sabetha really last against 50 people though.

> > >

> > > Maybe a minute? xDDDD

> > >

> > > But I'm sure that some people would die to the flak -no space, no kiter. Then a lot of them would die to the flamewall -not enough space for everyone to be safe. Then some more would die to the bomb -no space for the fixated person to move away from the melee safely.

> >

> > since there is no collision detection between player characters, there shouldnt be a problem. (It would be generally fun though if they would add it, high troll potential^^)

>

> 50 people stacked in one pixel, 50 AoEs stacked one on top of the other, LIGHT AND COLOR FIESTA

"who took my lighning hammer,ffs!?"

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > It would be hilarious to see 50man sabetha. In my head i see 50 "nonraiders" try it out and 20 of them dies in first flamewall. Think about all that panic and chaos :D

> > >

> > > They wouldn't fit in the platform, or would cover it entirely, so no kiter and RIP w/ flamewall xD

> >

> > Yeah, but how long would Sabetha really last against 50 people though.

>

> Maybe a minute? xDDDD

>

> But I'm sure that some people would die to the flak -no space, no kiter. Then a lot of them would die to the flamewall -not enough space for everyone to be safe. Then some more would die to the bomb -no space for the fixated person to move away from the melee safely.

since there is no collision detection between player characters, there shouldnt be a problem. (It would be generally fun though if they would add it, high troll potential^^)

> @"pakuras.7652" said:

> thanks, just finished second boss in spirit vale. But it took us maybe more than 90 minutes to get it done :D We started as group of randoms, but it turned out things go smooth if we just act according to the plan. Nice to finally see PVE contet of this kind in gw2. I avoided raids and then forget about them, because no one wanted a beginner in his team

congratulations! welcome to the show ^^

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > Combat Meters just compile everything into a easier to read visual aid, nothing more nothing less.

>

> You can see actions of people on the street, still you are not allowed to record them and especially you are not allowed to evaluate them.

i AM actuall allowed to evalute them.

And filming in indeed a violation, (when the face is visible and she/he is the center of the picture), since it falls under personal rights.

as long as they don´t mention your dps, is should not bother you, since combat data is public data, as anet stated before.

so your reguest will most likely not be considered.

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> I hate my DPS being measured by others as much as reviving DPS-fixated people. I would like to exclude them from joining my parties as the like to stay away from their parties.

> With the hacker-ban wave ANet has shown that it can easily recognize such users of third-party software.

>

> I propose that DPS-Meter user are flaged as such easy visible in game, and that LFG-tool allows you to set a flag that keeps such people out from joining your party.

"no dps meter or kick"

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > So you would ACTUALLY take something away from me.

>

> Again, we still don't know how much time, if any, it would take away from the raid team itself (verses other staff).

>

> But let's set that aside, IF you had a signed guarantee that it would *never* be allowed to set back the release of a new raid expansion, IF that were the case, then under that condition, *however* unrealistic you might believe it to be, would you agree that the easy mode raid would be a nice thing to have?

>

i would still find it useless, since (again) subjectivly speaking, the current raids, without the challenge attached to it offers no more gamplay expierence than the mordremoth fight. At least there wouldn´t be any unskippable dialouges (yay!) but again, i think that that gameplay expierence is already well served with constant open world updates.

> >How would you feel if they skip 2 or 3 living story chapters for your easymode (which you would play once and then forget if they don´t include legendary armour in it)

>

> If it didn't have Legendary armor in it then it wouldn't be my easymode.

>

well better not start to argue about that then :)

> But setting that aside, I wouldn't want them to skip 2-3 living story chapters, I just don't believe for a second that that's the tradeoff it would take. It's like if I came to you and said "hey, how would *you* like to have a pizza, delivered *to - your - house?* How cool would that be, huh? It'll only take three months each time and cost $500 per pizza." Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that probably sounds like a lousy deal that, I, at least, would not sign on to. But that doesn't mean that pizza delivery is a bad idea in principle, and the timetable and pricing quoted is just an unreasonable way to do it.

>

Please no more (sorry to say) stupid comparisons.

So what about 1 chapter then? Which is a reasonable timetable to overhaul 5 wings.

> >Try bounties btw, same experience as raids without the challenge, or demand bounties with raid boss skins (boss and drops) which would be much easier to impliment.

>

> No, again, bounties are a completely different thing. Trust me, I'm aware of all the options currently available to me in the game, and none of them are easy mode raids.

Its all about labeling then, since easy mode raids is nothing other then bounty,world boss, story instance, hero point.....if you take away the challenge and the rewards.

Trust me, i am other then you playing raids.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> >Then play the living story instances, where you will have the same experience. There are even more bosses then in raids.

>

> Those are different experiences. They have different environments and bosses, different reward structures. That's not what we're working on here. Here we're talking about the raids, the same as the current ones, only *easier.*

>

> Again, if that doesn't sound like something you'd enjoy, that's fine, there would be *no* reason for you to ever participate in them. No content you couldn't experience in hard mode, no rewards you couldn't find in hard mode, if you prefer hard mode, you'd be missing out on nothing by never doing easy mode.

>

Look, i know you think you sound reasonable , but in reality it will take development time for the raid team (don´t even start whith you "but its easy arguments", we are talking real world here).

It would delay raids in generall even more. (its been 6 month already, 10 month before that).

So you would ACTUALLY take something away from me.

How would you feel if they skip 2 or 3 living story chapters for your easymode (which you would play once and then forget if they don´t include legendary armour in it)

Raids are by anets definition challenging content. It should stay that way. you still have the ultimate (hrhr) gamemode all for yourself, with plenty to do,i guess.

Try bounties btw, same experience as raids without the challenge, or demand bounties with raid boss skins (boss and drops) which would be much easier to impliment.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to **_avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. _**

> > > >

> > > > so basicly what you want to do with raids.

> > >

> > > Again. . .

> > >

> > > ahem. . .

> > >

> > > **WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GAME.**

> > >

> > > Ok, can we agree that we are clear on this yet?

> > >

> > > A game should not be "hard work," a game should be *fun.*

> > >

> > > The "hard work," if there is any, should be on the part of the people being paid, not the people doing the paying.

> > >

> > > If I am in the game, and I am not enjoying what I'm doing, then something has gone horribly wrong.

> > >

> > > Could I clear the raid stages? Kitten yeah I *could* complete the raid stages, that's never been in question.

> > >

> > > Could I *enjoy* clearing the raid stages, as they are currently designed? Kitten no, I never could, and that's why, instead of doing that and not enjoying it, I've been pushing for them to make changes to the game that would allow the non-raiding population to participate in a way that *wouldn't* be "work."

> >

> > and i thought fun is subjective?

> > or is it only when you need it to be?

>

> Fun is *definitely* subjective.

>

> If *you* have fun doing the current raids, that's *awesome!* I want you to continue having that fun!

>

> But I never could, which is why I'm asking for an alternative, one that I, and I believe many others, would find just as fun as you find the current ones, so that you can play yours, and I can play mine, and we can *both* have fun without harming each other in any way.

Then play the living story instances, where you will have the same experience. There are even more bosses then in raids.

You are not even forced to group up with people there.

And again:

Raids ARE an alternative to the open world content. You said it yourself, its a NICHE.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

> > > >

> > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.

> > >

> > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to **_avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. _**

> >

> > so basicly what you want to do with raids.

>

> Again. . .

>

> ahem. . .

>

> **WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GAME.**

>

> Ok, can we agree that we are clear on this yet?

>

> A game should not be "hard work," a game should be *fun.*

>

> The "hard work," if there is any, should be on the part of the people being paid, not the people doing the paying.

>

> If I am in the game, and I am not enjoying what I'm doing, then something has gone horribly wrong.

>

> Could I clear the raid stages? Kitten yeah I *could* complete the raid stages, that's never been in question.

>

> Could I *enjoy* clearing the raid stages, as they are currently designed? Kitten no, I never could, and that's why, instead of doing that and not enjoying it, I've been pushing for them to make changes to the game that would allow the non-raiding population to participate in a way that *wouldn't* be "work."

and i thought fun is subjective?

or is it only when you need it to be?

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> I've suggested something similar in the past..

> Basically a Story mode.. raids balanced for a single player or small party but give you absolutely no rewards.

>

> It'll give these players the ability to experience the story of the raid and also the ability to learn every bosses mechanics in an easier environment which they can then use to beat the boss for real in an actual raid group.

>

> There are literally no cons to such an idea.. if anything it'll increase the population of players who want to raid without them being turned off the idea beacuase they don't know what to do and they don't want to get harassed by elitist players who want nothing to do with the clueless noobs who don't understand the content.

cons: development time

with op suggestions, it would be "far more easier". it´s not that bad of an idea actually.

but there are already 3 threads going on in this matter, you should propably post it there.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

> > >

> > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

> >

> > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.

>

> Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to **_avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. _**

so basicly what you want to do with raids.

FYI, there is also no "real aggro" mechanic in this game. Only in some raid encounters the person with the most toughness will be focused by the boss.

You can run dungeons for instanced group content, but be aware that there is a stoy mode (for the current zonelevel the dungeon is in) and an exploration mode where lvl 80 is recommended, so instanced content is basicly just in the endgame.

you are "supposed" to level with the open world content.

And as others said before, warrior is a very flexible class, be it support or as a dps class, have fun with it :)

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Nope.. You need to do Fractals to complete Legendary Weapons, as such weapons already require Instance based Content, which is what makes them **Legendary**, I personally think they should put back in requiring WvW map completion to get Legendary Anything.

> > >

> >

> > A tiny bit of Fractals, not even high levels, just solo T1 and a bit of WvW to get one gift of Battle which you can get really fast, is all you need to craft a Legendary Weapon outside the Open World. There is also the dungeon tokens but you can get those faster from WVW/PVP semi-afking than from running actual dungeons. Is requiring a tiny bit of instanced content (the easiest part of it) and a tiny bit of WVW/PVP (again the easiest parts) what makes them **Legendary**?

> >

> > If making a legendary weapon required at least playing T4 Fractals (not CMs), doing at least a reasonable fraction of what is required for either of the WvW or PvP backpacks (or both) then yes, they'd be "legendary" in terms of requiring enough of each type of content in order to craft. Now they are 99.9999% Open World PVE and an afterthought of anything else.

>

> What a trite and typical move to downplay the Fractal and WvW requirement, which is quite substantial.

>

> But like it or not, Legendary Weapons require various kinds of content, and pass though several modes of play, which makes them actually Legendary, unlike the raid armor.

Raid armor also needs open world activities.

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> There is so much more that makes a player skilled than damage per second alone. Some players may have lower DPS but higher survivability and/or healing stats allowing them to survive where pure DPS specced players are dead on the ground. It is hard to measure the value of a player in a party with a number value, even if you take defensive and healing capabilities into consideration. The ability to lead, follow, communicate and know the strategy is at least as important to the success of the party.

>

> It can be good to know DPS, but I would not judge people on it. And that is where the core of the problem is. People get judged on DPS alone.

well, when you join a group as a dps,it is natural to be judged on your dps.

and if you run healing stats for whatever reason you are propably in the wrong group anyway.

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > I’m just wondering if the raids would have been more inviting had they stuck to a gradual scaling difficulty concept from the start.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am not sure it would solve much. In think the lack of in-game tools for accessibility so that people know how to basically start is a more important factor. A training category on LFG where trainers and new people could easily congregate or more options on the training golem to learn mechanics for example. If there where such things in game i think the actual progression within the wing would not matter that much.

> > > >

> > > > What about instead of an easy mode per say, if they had a new wing that comes before wing 1. Can call it wing 0. You could try and introduce some of the standard raids themes and mechanics to this wing, and maybe keep the difficulty low, like a Cairn, MO and Samarog kinda difficulty. That way you could let this wing introduce and better equip the new raiders for what’s in store.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I really like this idea. A kind of easy wing more forgiving without actually gifting the kills or allowing things like undergeared or autoattacking being able to clear it, with mechanics that would intruduce new raiders. Yeah! This would actually help them get in touch with raids. It could serve as a mid step between open world and raids and help them get comfortable and fear less the other raid wings.

> >

> > while it would be a reasonable idea, the question is how much of development it would take. and how that would relate to the "regular" raid relaise schedule.

> > it would make me kind of "uneasy" when i would see "real" raid releases take even longer as they are now.

> > and how that would actually help someone with current raids.

> > again, to learn the raid mechanics the easiest thing to to is...well raid.

> > sure it will take time (more for one, less for others) but you can shorten that by spending half an hour getting confident with your desired class on the trainingsgolem.

> > for most bosses the mechanics 80% of the grp has to deal with is just "dont stand in that glowing field" or "you need to stand in that glowing field".

> > the "challenging" ones are these where every one need to know whats going on. (Sabetha, Deimos,Sloth, Mathias, SH, Dhuum or KC to some degree) and those can only be learned AT the boss itself.

> > i am sorry, as said above, i can´t really see how that would help a "newbie" getting into raids.

> >

> >

> I mean it would be an additional raid wing to get insights and mag shards from, minis, wing specific loot.

>

> It wouldn’t be redesigning fights, but making new ones that would be more introductory and taught good habits.

i have nothing agains a new wing with if i understand you correctly a better difficulty curve? but slefish as i am i would still like somethign harder in it then.

giving a though...

what i would actually enjoy (not that it would be easy to impliment or design)

a "boss" (could even be the trainingsgolem) which uses radom mechanics from other bosses in some form (would be tricky honestly) on a daylie/weekly rotation. which also grants 1 Li/Week and a possible mini drop.

Would be good for new players to learn the mechanics, have some sort of challenge and a reward.

and for me as a "experienced" player i would have some more variety with this random boss fight in this game.

For example.. first phase 2 people have to run in a green circle, 2nd phase an orb needs to be pushed through 2 rifts, and last phase some player needs to be CC´d every 30 seconds.

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > I’m just wondering if the raids would have been more inviting had they stuck to a gradual scaling difficulty concept from the start.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am not sure it would solve much. In think the lack of in-game tools for accessibility so that people know how to basically start is a more important factor. A training category on LFG where trainers and new people could easily congregate or more options on the training golem to learn mechanics for example. If there where such things in game i think the actual progression within the wing would not matter that much.

> > > >

> > > > What about instead of an easy mode per say, if they had a new wing that comes before wing 1. Can call it wing 0. You could try and introduce some of the standard raids themes and mechanics to this wing, and maybe keep the difficulty low, like a Cairn, MO and Samarog kinda difficulty. That way you could let this wing introduce and better equip the new raiders for what’s in store.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I really like this idea. A kind of easy wing more forgiving without actually gifting the kills or allowing things like undergeared or autoattacking being able to clear it, with mechanics that would intruduce new raiders. Yeah! This would actually help them get in touch with raids. It could serve as a mid step between open world and raids and help them get comfortable and fear less the other raid wings.

> >

> > while it would be a reasonable idea, the question is how much of development it would take. and how that would relate to the "regular" raid relaise schedule.

> > it would make me kind of "uneasy" when i would see "real" raid releases take even longer as they are now.

> > and how that would actually help someone with current raids.

> > again, to learn the raid mechanics the easiest thing to to is...well raid.

> > sure it will take time (more for one, less for others) but you can shorten that by spending half an hour getting confident with your desired class on the trainingsgolem.

> > for most bosses the mechanics 80% of the grp has to deal with is just "dont stand in that glowing field" or "you need to stand in that glowing field".

> > the "challenging" ones are these where every one need to know whats going on. (Sabetha, Deimos,Sloth, Mathias, SH, Dhuum or KC to some degree) and those can only be learned AT the boss itself.

> > i am sorry, as said above, i can´t really see how that would help a "newbie" getting into raids.

> >

>

> Trying to get some ideas out there. Not sure exactly how we can make the content more inviting by designing an easier introductory wing and bridging that gap a bit better.

>

> Think about it this way. W0 would be your warm up before you start to excercise. Mind you, perhaps Anet has already thought of this and is developing a raid wing, which allows new raiders to get their feet wet, before doing laps in the pool.

>

> It would actually be kinda funny if W0 took place in the aerodrome and one of the bosses would be the training golem ? and another could a group of mercenaries.

>

>

Keep them comming :)

in my opinion (which noone should see as a fact, neighter do i) one of the problems is actually that the "open world endgame" is a bit on the "to easy side".

whats not a problem for me personally since a lot of people are liking the status quo as it is. but nothing really "prepares" you for the instanced endgamecontent.

or even explain key mechanics (what is CC?). i mean, the dodge tutorial is a nice to have, but do you need to dodge in open world regulary?

i am shifting the topic a little bit sorry, but the "warm up" should be already given by openwold content itself (or fractals, which to be fair, already give a good insight on what to expect in raids)

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > I’m just wondering if the raids would have been more inviting had they stuck to a gradual scaling difficulty concept from the start.

> > >

> > > I am not sure it would solve much. In think the lack of in-game tools for accessibility so that people know how to basically start is a more important factor. A training category on LFG where trainers and new people could easily congregate or more options on the training golem to learn mechanics for example. If there where such things in game i think the actual progression within the wing would not matter that much.

> >

> > What about instead of an easy mode per say, if they had a new wing that comes before wing 1. Can call it wing 0. You could try and introduce some of the standard raids themes and mechanics to this wing, and maybe keep the difficulty low, like a Cairn, MO and Samarog kinda difficulty. That way you could let this wing introduce and better equip the new raiders for what’s in store.

> >

>

> I really like this idea. A kind of easy wing more forgiving without actually gifting the kills or allowing things like undergeared or autoattacking being able to clear it, with mechanics that would intruduce new raiders. Yeah! This would actually help them get in touch with raids. It could serve as a mid step between open world and raids and help them get comfortable and fear less the other raid wings.

while it would be a reasonable idea, the question is how much of development it would take. and how that would relate to the "regular" raid relaise schedule.

it would make me kind of "uneasy" when i would see "real" raid releases take even longer as they are now.

and how that would actually help someone with current raids.

again, to learn the raid mechanics the easiest thing to to is...well raid.

sure it will take time (more for one, less for others) but you can shorten that by spending half an hour getting confident with your desired class on the trainingsgolem.

for most bosses the mechanics 80% of the grp has to deal with is just "dont stand in that glowing field" or "you need to stand in that glowing field".

the "challenging" ones are these where every one need to know whats going on. (Sabetha, Deimos,Sloth, Mathias, SH, Dhuum or KC to some degree) and those can only be learned AT the boss itself.

i am sorry, as said above, i can´t really see how that would help a "newbie" getting into raids.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> How is this contributing to the thread?

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > And sorry to say, but if she/he prefers playing with even less stress then easy raid encounters---> open world, which still is the largest part of pve. and offers the same gameplay experience as your "easy raid mode"..

>

> /sigh, I REALLY wish that people would just stop suggesting existing game activities like open world, or fractals, or whatever as an "alternative" to having easy mode raids. If that was actually the solution, why do you think I would have even engaged in this discussion? I would have been playing this game for the past five years and read you say "maybe try open world?" and thought "Open world? What is that? Maybe I should see what that's about. . ."

>

to me your version of easy raid, or the intended felling to play trough it sounds like open world hero points, since the challenge IS what makes raid feel special.

so why don´t you demand more open world content then? wouldn´t that even suit your needs better? i mean, sure, we can waste develepors time to revamp old content but why not use it for new content?

> I'm asking for easy mode raids because I believe that easy mode raids would fill a niche that NO other existing content would adequately fill, so no, *none* of the existing content will serve as an adequate alternative to that.

>

you fail to see that raids ARE the alternative to open world content. why should there be an optional mode for an alternative mode?

a niche in a niche.

> >would you like easy raids with no way to get legendary armour? since i am getting the feeling that this is your main goal here.

>

> I view it as two things. I definitely do want Envoy armor, I've never "disguised" that, but I definitely also want easy mode raids, even without the armor. I just see the latter as a wasted opportunity, since without the armor (and other raid-specific loot), that means that they'd need to come up with a *completely new and separate* way to earn the armor, when the easy mode raid would be a much more natural fit, and it also means that it would be hard to offer enough incentive to *farm* the easy mode raids regularly, which means they would end up like story dungeons, something players might do, and enjoy once, but wouldn't be likely to repeat. Adding chase-worthy rewards to them would make them reliable farmable content, which I believe would better justify the costs of implementing them in the first place.

>

i am sorry, envoy armour should stay where it is, only obtainable by raiding as it is now.

i would have no problem with a pvp,wvw style open pve armour. (whatever time/gold sink that would mean)

since i am, like you playing this game for a long time anets *completly new and seperate* way to earn this armour would simply be slapping it on events nobody cares to do anymore.

and see, i as a raider i actually do not need that loot carrot hanging in front off me to enjoy raiding, i do it for the fun.(envoy armour was a huge bonus, even more that i had to do a loooooot of my not so favoured meta events over and over again) be real here, it would be a "once and done" mode without rewards. like personal story.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > Why would the expierenced player do so though? Since,well he IS expierenced enough to join expierienced groups, which most likely beat the NORMAL mode anyway.

> > > You wouldn´t lose much time on a failed attempt either.

> > >

> > > Exactly.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > What now?

> >

> > Edit: i think something was lost in translation. i meant, if said exp player would have a failed attemt in normal mode, he would lose so much time anyway (im not a nativ english speaker, pardon me that)

>

> Ok, I just meant, it adds flexibility. If he wants to try the normal mode and maybe fail a few times, he can do that. If he prefers playing with less stress through the easy mode, he can do that. It adds options, players aren't forced into either.

>

Flexibility already exists in normal raids because of the different difficulty layers.

And sorry to say, but if she/he prefers playing with even less stress then easy raid encounters---> open world, which still is the largest part of pve. and offers the same gameplay experience as your "easy raid mode".. especially when raids ARE an option to other gw2 "endgame activities"

even i do open world from time to time when i don´t want to raid, since nobody forces me to.

would you like easy raids with no way to get legendary armour? since i am getting the feeling that this is your main goal here. i that case i guess it would be easier to simply add a open pve legendary armour, then precious raid team time wouldn´t be wasted to add nothing new to the game. (im sorry, like you i am egocentric and want content which i prefer released as fast and often as possible). But i think we are in the wrong thread for that (its hard to keep track, since the same people posting the same stuff everywhere)