Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> I think it's acceptable for a small baseline DPS of un-evadable hits to exist for less mobile classes like Guard/Engi/Necro, even a positive balance check for Thief/Mes.

Agreed on this point, give or take engie because I wouldn't call that exactly low mobility.

Guard. Necro, Condi Rev maybe.

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> It just plain hurts and impossible to prevent.

You cant cleanse burning? some classes breathe condi cleanse right now.

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill.

you keep refusing to take speed runes, relentless pursuit, or speed of shadows on the slowest class in the game for some reason.

I know you dislike thief because they hard counter you but at this point you're just phoning it in Crinn , lel.

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill.

> >

> > If this is your concern, why not use corrosive poison cloud?

>

> Because blowing slots just to handle 1 skill that 1 guy out of 5 on the enemy team has is totally solid decision making. I'd be shooting myself in the foot by compromising my capability to fight the other 5 guys on the enemy team. Not to mention that CPC is basically useless against the rest of the thief's toolkit.

>

> Any "counter" that requires compromising your ability to fight the other 4 guys on the enemy team is not a viable or functional counter.

Didn't see this until I posted but the point stands. Necro is slow, you can fight your hard counter by being fast as hell in shroud, and it keeps your slots open for the rest of your comp matchups.

You don't even have to do that; Reaper shroud 2 destroys projectiles. A dodge and reaper 2 would mitigate a good part of the elite.

Not that I'm telling you how to play your class, just that I know you know these things and you're kind of just ignoring them because you dont like thieves in general.

> @"bighead.3465" said:

> Do you want me to put up all the screens of your corpse when you tried ganking me? How do you still have the audacity to even post on the forums?

Weird flex but ok

They don't need to remove EM or the core mechanic of Mirage. They just need to force being able to perform a dodge while stunned to only work if you pick EM. That way glassies can pick IH if they are confident they can handle being stunned, or take EM as a more defensive option at the cost of some of their damage. they can even take a couple of seconds of exhaustion off of EM if they do that. Right now everyone is just speccing IH because you get the benefit of EM without actually needing to slot it, anyway.

People who are claiming EM needs a rework are not realizing that mirages don't need EM to dodge while stunned (they can still dodge while stunned, the stun just does not expire but they get a window of evade frames), and the mirages debating them are using that misinformation to claim that mirage is fine and people are just whining to whine.

Forgive me if I missed someone specifying this, but it seems most people are dancing around it. Just because people have been whining about Mesmers for a long time _doesn't mean they don't have a point that this is cheesy_ , but at the same time _make sure you have a cursory knowledge of what you think the problem is about a class before you start suggesting specific trait fixes_ .

It doesn't matter that unhindered combatant made thieves immune against immob and chilled. you only got that if you slotted that one grandmaster, and that capability was separate of the core mechanic of having an extra dodge and special dodge trait. Trying to use that to claim mirage should be immune to stuns by nature of its class because daredevil was immune to a less potent condition is false equivalence. There's a difference between the application of immob/chill and the application of stun.

As is claiming "just bait dodges". Stun only lasts for 1 or 2 seconds on average, in that time waiting for the mirage to dodge could easily allow them to just act with any utility when stun expires, if the move we need to hit them with has a big windup. If mirages get stunned, they should have to commit to a cc removal option like everyone else, and have that slot sit on their utility bar.

I would spend the same amount of gems for that scarf alone, if it didn't come with the outfit attached.

Just an errant comment.

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"spartan.9421" said:

> > > Just because something else is also broken doesn't mean you can avoid fixing/talking about the thing that is the most broke. Do you even know what a logical fallacy is?

> >

> > Louder for the people in the back who run away after using whataboutism.

>

> What about teefs though?

>

>

*squints*

I'll ignore that.

Tried speed runes on reaper? You can catch them now.

They still have to react to you when you get in their face, as bad as that matchup is vs reaper. Other than that, I'm fine with shaving stealth time off dodge holding rifle or tweaking reveal from DJ.

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> People don't understand that in a game with different classes and builds there will be always overtuned classes.

> You can nerf all the overtuned classes right now in pvp, holo, mirage, soulbeast, scourge, spellbreaker, let's just say those 5; you can be 100% sure if those 5 classes receive insane nerfs, other 5 build will be overtuned, maybe weaver, maybe tempest.

Then don't give them all insane nerfs at once. Just balance the overperformers more frequently and see how the metrics change. Yes, some specs will be on top, but that doesnt justify them being busted either. you should be able to outplay them and/or make them think and react to your kit skillfully instead of them being able to just ignore burst because they have resources so plentiful they dont really have to care about what you're doing.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Dislike button

lel

They have to fix balance before 2v2 works.

> @"Jayjay.8946" said:

> Has anyone else noticed how often winning games turn to losses as one or two team members appear to lose their fighting spirit in the last part of the game? If they are deliberately aiding the opposing team is there amything can be done?

Tortoise and Hare syndrome.

If you become confident of a win, you are less likely to work hard to secure it and thus more likely to be upset because your opponent is under more pressure to overtake you.

Call that out when you see it, remind your team to not be rash to avoid last second upsets.

"Hold 2 to win, leave Far" and "Protect objective/Take objective to win" works wonders.

> @"spartan.9421" said:

> Just because something else is also broken doesn't mean you can avoid fixing/talking about the thing that is the most broke. Do you even know what a logical fallacy is?

Louder for the people in the back who run away after using whataboutism.

There are some issues with other classes. Some of them overperform on normal rotation (Boonbeast and holosmith are the most glaring). We can deal with them in terms of balancing suggestions. but mirage remains part of that group that is overperforming.

Any class that, on normal rotation, boils down to "do what you want because the enemy cant touch you or make you shift your playstyle at all because your build is doing all the heavy lifting for your combat", regardless of how many buttons you need to press, needs to be toned down. Once that is resolved, we can talk numbers for the less glaring issues.

> @"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

> are we going to have a balance patch before the said tournament?

>

> because if we don't, there are absurd duo combos that will not die and can burst at the same time.

That's the point.

When the tourney goes live, we will have piles and piles of data on Mirage/Mirage, Scourge/Scourge, FB/FB, Scourge/FB, Holo/Holo, and the variants.

Lets just hope they make the right choices with that data and dont invalidate specs while they tweak the ones with no presence.

> @"emblack.3754" said:

> I weep with joy! Any mesmer build, form or variation - including core mesmer which is hilarious- is fundamentally broken once you get the hang of it. Spvp with mesmers goes like this: mesmer goes in 1 v 1 -> succeeds -> next opponent comes -> another kill -> 5 kills later -> he/she dies eventually in a team fight because every member of the opposing team focuses on him/her in a fit of blind rage -> match won for the mesmer's team due to the insane amount of time he disabled his opponents playing wack a' mole.

> Gosh is this the meaning of competitive sPVP? Get a mesmer or get out? They balanced a little the holomancer, good for them. But why do they refuse to level the playfield when it comes to their precious golden child? Before you ask I play spellbreaker, which is an ironic name considering mesmers are spell wielders and can kick a garden variety spellbreaker's behind with zero effort, and deadeye, the poor man's ranger.

while I understand the sentiment, power shatter mes is fine, and power chrono is p fine too. I'd even venture to say power mirage is alright (or rather would be very quickly if mirage cloak had a tweak), but I need more data on that because most people are just condibombing atm.

Holosmith is still busted. Anet needs to decide if they want them to be tanky/sustainy or CC machines. They cant be both.

Just letting the devs know that when they make little changes like that, like they did for the Shackles of Madness, they don't go unnoticed.

Appreciate whoever snuck that in, if it wasn't in patch notes. As a person that spends more time tweaking colors and armor pieces than I do hitting AI, fabric suddenly acquiring realistic flow makes me more than a little happy.

> @"Jeknar.6184" said:

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > Mesmer mains cry mesmer mains cry.

>

> I main mesmer and I wish Mirage never existed.

You aren't the only one I am absolutely positive, but yet here we are, with mesmer players reasoning that PVP shouldn't be fun for the people not playing mesmer and seeing nothing wrong with their rationale.

> @"buzzle.9347" said:

> obviously those specs are so weak... everyone knows that

- Acknowledges Berserker is weak

- Asks to nerf core war anyway

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"incisorr.9502" said:

>

> >

> > the only way people won't hate mesmer is if it doesn't exist

> >

> >

>

> This ^

> This is what people that constantly cry about mesmer have wanted since launch.

> Mesmer gets nerfs 3 patches in a row

>

> " Look at the devs favorite class"

>

Not disagreeing with you on this but I just want to point out that when warriors outside of spellbreaker had four second endure pain procs, the forum had a number of power mesmers who were specifically using this label on them.

Just noting that the wheel turns, on that point alone.

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > I think the current placement of heavy light forcing them to pick that traitline is suitable. As it stands now, you have to choose between control, damage, and defense for your grandmaster.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not really a choice when one of the traits is clearly better than the other two

> > > > >

> > > > > :/

> > > >

> > > > Welcome to GW2. every other class suffers from this, even mirage.

> > > > Especially Herald.

> > > >

> > > > Either take the safest, most versatile option, or one of the other two for niche builds.

> > >

> > > Okay. Are we not supposed to make suggestions? If other things can be changed I think threads/posts should be made to bring awareness to them too. Not sure why we shouldn't voice our opinion for trait/skill changes when it might be a good change for a profession..

> >

> > I am half genuinely serious about it being fine as is, and half bitter at the thought of having big game hunter while tethered by longbow do 20% extra damage to me, lengthen the tether, put vuln on me per auto only to be yanked through and then pushed back out of test of faith with deflecting shot.

> > Don't take it as an attack on your suggestion. I'm critiquing it because it's a free damage buff to any longbow DH.

> >

> > I haven't seen any DH struggle particularly poorly in a while.

>

> I understand. A lot of people don't like fighting Dragonhunter.

>

> You probably don't see them struggling since there are barely any around :P. I still get the occasional flame for playing DH in ranked...

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > I think the current placement of heavy light forcing them to pick that traitline is suitable. As it stands now, you have to choose between control, damage, and defense for your grandmaster.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not really a choice when one of the traits is clearly better than the other two

> > > > >

> > > > > :/

> > > >

> > > > Welcome to GW2. every other class suffers from this, even mirage.

> > > > Especially Herald.

> > > >

> > > > Either take the safest, most versatile option, or one of the other two for niche builds.

> > >

> > > Okay. Are we not supposed to make suggestions? If other things can be changed I think threads/posts should be made to bring awareness to them too. Not sure why we shouldn't voice our opinion for trait/skill changes when it might be a good change for a profession..

> >

> > I am half genuinely serious about it being fine as is, and half bitter at the thought of having big game hunter while tethered by longbow do 20% extra damage to me, lengthen the tether, put vuln on me per auto only to be yanked through and then pushed back out of test of faith with deflecting shot.

> > Don't take it as an attack on your suggestion. I'm critiquing it because it's a free damage buff to any longbow DH.

> >

> > I haven't seen any DH struggle particularly poorly in a while.

>

> I understand. A lot of people don't like fighting Dragonhunter.

>

> You probably don't see them struggling since there are barely any around :P. I still get the occasional flame for playing DH in ranked...

I think that's more because Firebrand compared to DH is like comparing a professional football player to mvp of the team in Peewee.

Theyre both good, but one is a better version of good.

Add that to the masses of "If you arent playing X you're gimping the team" and here you are, lel.

If I still cared about ranked, I'd be playing only if they paid me, either in rewards or titles.

I'd rather fight in unranked with a team I know and have trained with and lose, than scrape out a win based on RNG in ranked. Loot only slightly moves the needle the other way, but its enough to make me consider it. Or it was. Idk now.

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > I think the current placement of heavy light forcing them to pick that traitline is suitable. As it stands now, you have to choose between control, damage, and defense for your grandmaster.

> > >

> > > It's not really a choice when one of the traits is clearly better than the other two

> > >

> > > :/

> >

> > Welcome to GW2. every other class suffers from this, even mirage.

> > Especially Herald.

> >

> > Either take the safest, most versatile option, or one of the other two for niche builds.

>

> Okay. Are we not supposed to make suggestions? If other things can be changed I think threads/posts should be made to bring awareness to them too. Not sure why we shouldn't voice our opinion for trait/skill changes when it might be a good change for a profession..

I am half genuinely serious about it being fine as is, and half bitter at the thought of having big game hunter while tethered by longbow do 20% extra damage to me, lengthen the tether, put vuln on me per auto only to be yanked through and then pushed back out of test of faith with deflecting shot.

Don't take it as an attack on your suggestion. I'm critiquing it because it's a free damage buff to any longbow DH.

I haven't seen any DH struggle particularly poorly in a while.

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> >

> > That is literally all I want.

> > Glad we see eye to eye.

> >

> Sorry about that, my writing is frequently way more convoluted than it should be.

>

No prob, thanks for being patient with helping me see your viewpoint.

> @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > Okay, but then make thieves tanky enough to fight you without stealth.

> > > > > > I am totally up for not playing stealthed, as long as you realize that thief damage and condi mitigation is often tied to stealth and give them ways to still be combat effective without being annoying.

> > > > >

> > > > > he means that stealth should be something you should time well and can't spam and not just pop it whenever you like

> > > >

> > > > That's fine too, but still make thieves be able to 1v1 with less access to stealth. If you're going to make the core mechanic for deadeyes more difficult, they should have more access to active defenses that allow them to contest you without relying on stealth.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thing is deadeye is class that shouldn't 1v1, does a sniper fight a soldier CQC? Deadeyes are supposed to use their ridiculous range and position themselves so the enemy has a hard time reaching them, at the state now they can be 5 meter away from you, do 10k in one shot and go back to stealth and theres nothing you can do about it.

> >

> > Okay. Just make Deaths Judgement not tied to a stealth skill, and give them active defenses to deal with their stealth loss.

>

> There other effective defenses are mobility, deadeye shouldn't be able to take much hits he should be able to avoid hits wich he can by staying far from his target. But besides being able to do that he can go perma stealth too

Okay. take out perma stealth, but enhance their mobility a bit and give them the highest range in the game, so they dont have to trade with rangers from 1500R and die.

Also modify the terrain so they can get good shots on all of the points from at least a couple of angles while at 1500R, so people have to leave the point and deal with them, which is essentially how they play in the first place, only worse.

(Notice how we're not talking about reveal anymore?)

The point I'm trying to make is that thieves have been shoehorned into being ranged harassment because the meta declared they were too obnoxious to be effective duelists, and it is absurd that people are pretending that they need more nerfs to stealth specifically when nerfing their stealth access will either:

lead to them being permanently out of range and still killing you from off of the point [if any buff is made to their mobility to allow them to kite more]

push them out of the meta entirely [if no buff is given to allow them to accommodate for being more exposed]

return them to 1v1 duelist status [if they get any compensatory buff to survivability.]

unless I'm missing something. because without stealth they are effectively slightly faster, three times as glassy longbow rangers with no add that cannot contest the point. Who will play that?

On my thief, I am totally up for anything that allows me to kill someone, as long as my kit played well enough allows me to reasonably contest a significant handful of builds. I dont care if that is as a +1 or as a solo duelist. What's not going to happen, however, is me having to watch people go "you cant 1v1, contest the point while losing points by standing outside of the ring, OR defend yourself, but yet please still pvp as thief."

Gonna have to give thieves something chief.

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > > No, balancing should not occur based on fun.

> > > If thats the case than everyone for the next expansion will just rout for the most bland, dull elite specs in existence.

> > > Will it be unfun to play against? No

> > > Will it be fun to play? No

> > > Will it be competitive since people will not be arguing for it to be nerfed due to its 'fun' factor? Yes

> >

> > Why would a class fun to play against automatically not be fun to play? You can have a class that is exciting to play and yet fun to play against at the same time. Fighting games do it all the time.

> >

> > I have a hard time understanding you, I think.

>

> No, I agree with you, you are correct that that it's not necessarily the case that a class fun to play against means unfun to play. Thats a bad on my part.

> However, thats probably more of a personal problem on my part. I tend to like some types of game play that others my not find fun.

> But thats the other problem, its arbitrary, and if you just nerf based on fun or not fun than you will ultimately likely nerf classes that aren't in high end content to begin with, discouraging the player base of that spec.

> Is it fair that an entire elite spec is simply thrown in the trash because the majority of players say it is unfun to play against?

> **Or is it better to try to change what is unfun about it and then balance it out so it is viable?**

That is literally all I want.

Glad we see eye to eye.

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > I think the current placement of heavy light forcing them to pick that traitline is suitable. As it stands now, you have to choose between control, damage, and defense for your grandmaster.

>

> It's not really a choice when one of the traits is clearly better than the other two

>

> :/

Welcome to GW2. every other class suffers from this, even mirage.

Especially Herald.

Either take the safest, most versatile option, or one of the other two for niche builds.

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Xstein.2187" said:

> >

> > > Many people believe that stealth is not fun to play against. Therefore, some may just jump to conclusions and say dead eye is OP. If you think deadeye is OP then you specifically want nerfs. If you just think dead eye is not fun to play against than you want changes with compensations to maintain balance, such as providing deadeye with more defenses in place of having less access to stealth.

> > > Same thing with Mirage.

> >

> > Got it, I think..?

> >

> > Mechanically frustrating to fight is separate from being overpowered, that much is correct.

> > **You can fix frustrating gameplay by making it less punishing to the opponent though (by nerfing.)**. That is where my opinion differs. What matters is context. If the gameplay you intend to fix can only be fixed by changing a core mechanic that would strip the class in question of most of its defenses, then you need to add something that gives the class access to defense in some other way that allows it to remain viable.

> > If the gameplay you intend to fix can be fixed by a numbers adjustment then that's fine.

> >

>

> Yes, that is what I am talking about. Of course you could fix any class or skill that is 'unfun' to play against by nerfing it. However, that doesn't mean that ONLY nerfing it is the correct thing to do. Lowering the amount of stealth on dead eye would not strip it of most of its defenses (after all, you can decrease stealth by incremental amounts). However, dead eye is not taken in high level play with a lot of stealth, so why would you not compensate for lowering the stealth even if its only a partial amount? Whether of not the 'unfun' skill looking to be changed is counted as a 'core mechanic' is irrelevant. What matters is how the finale produce is balanced on the whole. If dead eye stealth is nerfed a little, other areas should be buffed a little (or even more since its not in high end pvp content that much). If stealth on dead eye is nerfed a lot, other areas should get buffed a lot. Same with Mirage. What matters is the finale product. The reality is that mirage currently **IS** balanced a lot on the ability to use mirage cloak.

Then add defense to Mirage somewhere else if you need to modify mirage cloak. o-o Just because the class is allegedly mechanically busted doesn't mean it deserves to be banished into obscurity. If I stun you though, you shouldn't be able to avoid the burst __UNLESS you commit to a defensive option with a CD.__

And if an attack is coming, __you should have to stop your attack and block it UNLESS, you commit to a defensive option that allows you to continue attacking, with a CD.__

Having those key mechanics tied to dodge, when endurance is so plentiful and people don't have to take EM to avoid bursts, is borderline silly IMO. But at the same time don't kill the class. Just make it have to be more careful.

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> No, balancing should not occur based on fun.

> If thats the case than everyone for the next expansion will just rout for the most bland, dull elite specs in existence.

> Will it be unfun to play against? No

> Will it be fun to play? No

> Will it be competitive since people will not be arguing for it to be nerfed due to its 'fun' factor? Yes

Why would a class fun to play against automatically not be fun to play? You can have a class that is exciting to play and yet fun to play against at the same time. Fighting games do it all the time.

I have a hard time understanding you, I think.