Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"dDuff.3860" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > Core guard also loses to DE 1v1 though. But whatever.

> > >

> > > I beat deadeyes regularly on a core sword/focus / GS burnguard and a meme trapless dragonhunter. Anything that forces them to put their rifle away can get the job done, especially if it can port to them, unless I've been fighting bad deadeyes all this time.

> > >

> > > > @"Leafstorm.1349" said:

> > > > Power Mantra Mesmers can one shot things from stealth, but they must set their burst up again while in combat to do it again if it doesn't work which really doesn't work most of the time.

> > >

> > > I like how this specific sentence reads like he was trying to explain how it was more annoying than the power mesmer builds that can oneshot you from stealth as well, but realized halfway through it that the argument was tenuous and had to add situational context to it to make it work.

> > >

> > > Nah, Power mes oneshots you faster if you're not aware.

> >

> > Correct me if I'm wrong but bursty core guard has close to equal chances when fighting another bursty bursties on equal skill level.

>

> If a deadeye stands on a no-port, there's no way a core guard can win.

I mean... That's not class imbalance, thats navmesh imbalance.

We totally need more of this. It's a good counter to the general bitterness you get in the mists nowadays.

It would be easier for you to learn to kite the reaper when s/he goes into shroud, or disengage than it would be to ask Anet to balance the game and get suitable results or learn Mirage.

I would aggressively argue that Mirage is even easier to pick up than core mesmer, but I'll respect your investment on that point on the grounds that I can relate to not playing cheese just because its in season.

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Core guard also loses to DE 1v1 though. But whatever.

I beat deadeyes regularly on a core sword/focus / GS burnguard and a meme trapless dragonhunter. Anything that forces them to put their rifle away can get the job done, especially if it can port to them, unless I've been fighting bad deadeyes all this time.

> @"Leafstorm.1349" said:

> Power Mantra Mesmers can one shot things from stealth, but they must set their burst up again while in combat to do it again if it doesn't work which really doesn't work most of the time.

I like how this specific sentence reads like he was trying to explain how it was more annoying than the power mesmer builds that can oneshot you from stealth as well, but realized halfway through it that the argument was tenuous and had to add situational context to it to make it work.

Nah, Power mes oneshots you faster if you're not aware.

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Nova.3817" said:

> > > if anything ranked should require you to form a team and unranked be a solo que haven

> >

> > But then the toxic people that want leaderboard would have to join groups and learn to deal with other people instead of just raging, blaming their team, quitting and hoping they never see their teammates again.

>

> You don't actually think the duos rethink their own actions if they lose a game, do you? :wink:

DuOs NeVeR LoSE

> @"Nova.3817" said:

> if anything ranked should require you to form a team and unranked be a solo que haven

But then the toxic people that want leaderboard would have to join groups and learn to deal with other people instead of just raging, blaming their team, quitting and hoping they never see their teammates again.

I'm totally fine with not using Defy Pain if the mesmer I managed to target and headbutt after dodging their burst from stealth cant mirage cloak to negate my followup without wasting their endurance. Because that's just as passive.

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > > > Didn't know it was a deadeye

> > > >

> > > > Thats a lie. your chat says clearly you knew it was DE.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh kitten me, you're right lol. My bad, I guess I did know it was a DE. Still didn't know he was on this side of the map, still didn't have a better option than capping home.

> > >

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > Does plague signet or the f1 ability work when you are blinded though? =/ Never has for me.

> > > >

> > > > PS transfers blind and is itself not affected by blindness.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Wouldn't have mattered if I had managed to find and target the thief for PS, still has might, quickness, and teleport. You can see the 3rb in the air. You're talking about finding a target coming out of stealth at range, targeting it, and hitting PS in under half a second. Which again, wouldn't have mattered since the 3rb is already in the air.

> >

> > It would have still mattered. you would have transferred weakness as well.

> > That being said, it was still a bad MU for you to go solo. If the guard didn't want to do his job and you knew there was a DE, you should have explicitly told him to cap home to deal with the DE or gone with him to mid to push it instead of feeding the DE 5 points, or at the very least put wurm up behind a building so you could have run away in the event you got nuked.

> > All of that could have been potentially ignored with spectral armor.

> >

> >

> >

> > > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > You can see me hitting plague signet, it doesn't fire until I'm on the ground.

> >

> > The video clearly shows you not actually trying to use it until you are a few milliseconds from death. It has no activation blink until immediately before you down.

> >

> > This isn't a "Thief is OP" issue. This is a "I made poor choices for my role and kit" issue.

> > We all make bad plays here and there, but that's not a pass to claim DE is op.

> >

> >

>

> Have you ever tried telling someone the correct rotation for their class? How well received is it in general? It's not, at best they'll listen and do what they should, but that isn't generally how it plays out. Usually it just leads to someone screaming REEEEE in /t or rage quitting.

>

> Going mid wasn't an option, the Rev was the first to die and ran back to mid on respawn so his cds were burned/he'd be down by the time I got back. The core guard had no idea what he was doing and I'm not going to push mid 4v2 with someone unreliable. I definitely wasn't expecting to get dropped in under 1s on a bruiser, because who in the kitten would expect that?

>

> Putting up flesh wurm at spawn is a bad move because you don't know where it's going to take you when you trigger it. Might take you to safety, might get caught on uneven ground and teleport you 2 feet into a wall. I could've and should've put it up on the side of the house next to the point as I was running up to it, but ideally wanted it in the pillars for better kiting use down the road.

>

> Sa would have been the difference of dying right then vs dying 1s later when the second 3rb landed. Even combining it with shroud would've made no difference, each hit of 3rb is 3-3.5k damage, Sa would only restore 1.5k lf. So I'd still be immobilized and then downed.

>

> I made the clip and posted it in response to a comment about how dying to a DE means you're an incompetent noob, when that really isn't the case. Sometimes you get caught with your pants down. But that much damage and control from range and stealth in that time frame is not conducive to a healthy competition. Should you assume every second of every game you will be deleted with no real chance to fight back in <1s?

Agreed on most of this, including that rifle needs a second look because of its damage output. That motive was lost to me initially. As long as we are talking about the parts of the synergy that make that possible (for example, the debuffs on binding shadow) and go from there. I'm fine with adjustment as long as they affect mostly the core issue.

however:

>Should you assume every second of every game you will be deleted with no real chance to fight back in <1s?

The answer to that is **yes**. In pvp you should expect that at any point a roamer is going to unload on you and down you in less than two seconds unless you have a passive stopgap, with that potential increasing the closer you get to a point and exponentially if you are unaccompanied.

Sucks that telling people that they should go do X because X usually leads to velociraptor noises.

> @"RobMonty.3719" said:

> Most of us are tired of Ele whipping the whole team sometimes...Who thought that up?

[gigglesnort]

Imagine an ele soloing a 4man comp

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> I think its a case of both. Not overpowered per se, but the class having overtuned abilities. Not just a thief problem though but something thats a issue with every class.

See, now I can easily agree with that. If an ability does too much or too little, I'm all for nerfs/buffs where they may be needed.

It bothers me that people go "oh. I got 100-0d by thief so clearly stealth must be removed and damage shaved by 30% across the board, even though I didnt press my buttons."

The problem is running the numbers and explaining why x is busted in most situations takes a knowledge of the abilities themselves.

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > Didn't know it was a deadeye

> >

> > Thats a lie. your chat says clearly you knew it was DE.

> >

>

> Oh kitten me, you're right lol. My bad, I guess I did know it was a DE. Still didn't know he was on this side of the map, still didn't have a better option than capping home.

>

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > Does plague signet or the f1 ability work when you are blinded though? =/ Never has for me.

> >

> > PS transfers blind and is itself not affected by blindness.

> >

>

> Wouldn't have mattered if I had managed to find and target the thief for PS, still has might, quickness, and teleport. You can see the 3rb in the air. You're talking about finding a target coming out of stealth at range, targeting it, and hitting PS in under half a second. Which again, wouldn't have mattered since the 3rb is already in the air.

It would have still mattered. you would have transferred weakness as well.

That being said, it was still a bad MU for you to go solo. If the guard didn't want to do his job and you knew there was a DE, you should have explicitly told him to cap home to deal with the DE or gone with him to mid to push it instead of feeding the DE 5 points, or at the very least put wurm up behind a building so you could have run away in the event you got nuked.

All of that could have been potentially ignored with spectral armor.

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> You can see me hitting plague signet, it doesn't fire until I'm on the ground.

The video clearly shows you not actually trying to use it until you are a few milliseconds from death. It has no activation blink until immediately before you down.

This isn't a "Thief is OP" issue. This is a "I made poor choices for my role and kit" issue.

We all make bad plays here and there, but that's not a pass to claim DE is op.

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Does plague signet or the f1 ability work when you are blinded though? =/ Never has for me.

PS transfers blind and is itself not affected by blindness.

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> Didn't know it was a deadeye

Thats a lie. your chat says clearly you knew it was DE.

> didn't know he was on this side of the map

I believe that. But Thief is Thief.

> we just lost mid and I wasn't going to feed on respawn

Okay, but you still should be considering that you're gonna get stalked on any point alone.

> core guard went to feed instead of capping home

sorry guard is bad. That doesn't mean you should do it though, tell the guard to.

> Even if I had gotten off the stunbreak, Im still immobilized.

plague signet transfers immob

> Even if I had gotten off a perfectly timed plague signet and sent the immob back I'd have no cds, no hp, and be off point

You'd be alive if you made it behind a wall.

> Thief still has up shadowstep and meld.

You're not gonna win vs thief as necro.

> The only change would be dying off point vs on point.

There's a lot of factors that made that happen.

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > Problem with the video is not really that they were unprepared, but how fast the damage was delivered in such a way that required not much build up. Kind of defeats the point of malice if they can open up with so much damage in the first place while also being able to CC their opponent without much thought. Could other classes counter it? Sure. If they have defensive invulns that auto themselves, which this game should move away from.

> > >

> > > Doesnt really change how poorly designed the class is for PvP in terms of balance. But guess thats the direction the community would rather keep pushing the game. Burst damage with little need for might or thought, let the build play for ya and abuse the powercreep.

> >

> > He couldn't react because he was knocked down with binding shadow and did not have a stun break on his bar. He tried to put flesh wurm up on the point itself, which would not have helped him in that situation anyway. A stunbreak followed by a dodge would have mitigated most of that burst and opened the thief up to counterpressure, which by now should be something most low mob specs should be twitchy to do if they're expecting to live against surprise shatter mesmers.

> > .

> > This isn't a matter of not having enough time to respond, though again, I'm fine with talking adjustments to numbers if there's sufficient proof. But this situation is is similar to encountering a shatter mesmer, with the difference being shatter mesmers unload on you faster, and this reaper was not prepared for any surprise case. either way. He was sleepwalking and thought that DE was miles away. His kit was not ready for any setup that began with a hard cc.

>

> To me it seems to have happened instantly, from being marked to knocked down to receiving the 10k initial burst. Even with a stunbreak into a dodge they would have still taken that damage since just pressing V doesnt always make you invuln on the press, damage still flows through depending on how the server is registering the information. Lets not even mention that dodging is impossible when your immobilized =/ Only chance they would have had is if they were running soul reaping and popped f1, then that that would be deleted with the excessive low risk burst thats being pushed out. Then into the stealth reset and repeat.

>

> Its both not having enough time to respond and skills that are just doing to much interms of condition application that eliminates a lot of counterplay from something that doesn't have passive sustain traits, that this game needs to do away with. Power mesmer would have been a better encounter, just from not being heavily CCed with burst and more tells.

>

> But your right about the kit not being useful for the encounter. A few spectrals maybe could have bought more time.

See edit. I looked more closely: pressing the only button on that bar the reaper **didn't** press would have put weakness and immob on the thief, leaving him free to dodge AND mitigating most of that damage. So the reaper had a kit that could have resolved this, but chose instead to not use it and blame the thief for doing a lotta damage.

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Doesnt really change how poorly designed the class is for PvP in terms of balance. But guess thats the direction the community would rather keep pushing the game. Burst damage with little need for might or thought, let the build play for ya and abuse the powercreep.

I also want you to look at how many vuln stacks the reaper has. Vuln is technically might in 1v1.

This encounter was quick, but there are several core failings that made that down possible that you can react to on instinct.

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Problem with the video is not really that they were unprepared, but how fast the damage was delivered in such a way that required not much build up. Kind of defeats the point of malice if they can open up with so much damage in the first place while also being able to CC their opponent without much thought. Could other classes counter it? Sure. If they have defensive invulns that auto themselves, which this game should move away from.

>

> Doesnt really change how poorly designed the class is for PvP in terms of balance. But guess thats the direction the community would rather keep pushing the game. Burst damage with little need for might or thought, let the build play for ya and abuse the powercreep.

EDIT:

I upped the quality to look closer and that reaper not only _has plague signet on their bar and refused to touch it until they were dead_ , but was aware that thief was a deadeye and admonished their team about it. look closely at how long it takes for reaper to decide it would be a good idea to break stun. And they have an overlay that -told them plainly that it was off cooldown, to boot.-

I don't really have anything else to say. pressing plague signet immediately would have fixed your issue and opened the thief up to being oneshot, put weakness on them, and immobed them. if you had axe on swap that could have easily been a thief death.

But nah lets blame the deadeye for being too strong while freecasting.

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

>

>

> ~Balanced as kitten~

You keep posting this video as proof that DE is busted, but seem to consistently forget that a reaper standing alone on a point with no life force and no spectral armor slotted is a free meal for any thief running a fairly cohesive build, much more so a deadeye.

Making a bad play is not a free ticket to blame the opposing side for being overpowered. Thief was not and probably never will be necro's fight.

If you want to talk numbers rather than a shot of a reaper being punished for an error in situational awareness, we can.

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Din't YOU ALL last season SCREAMED Mesmer mirage chrono is the braindead easiest with no skill's needed?

>

Make no mistake. Mirage is toxic as it currently stands.

Easy to learn does not mean it's easy to do well with across the board, just like a class that has a higher skill floor is not automatically exempt from being unreasonably forgiving across the board.

> @"BlackBeard.2873" said:

> Endure Pain should last for only a second.

I can't believe we've come to this objectively

It's mostly warrior.

Warrior is incredibly easy to pick up and master, but at a certain point you will run into people that have fought many, many warriors, and if you aren't creative with mindgames and pressure/baiting dodges and invuls, they will very easily dispatch you.

So Warrior, but keep in mind that you will be easily outplayed and will need more situational awareness than most at higher levels to not be shut down.

"Dont ping spam"

"Ignoring ping because enemy on respawn"

"Ignoring ping, kill teef/mes camping beast first"

"Playername, go kill beast"

Dont yell at them.

"Nice play" when they down someone

"NeVeR CaPiTuLaTe"

"Hehe, boii" and any associated meme

Generally being dumb/humorous, but not obnoxious with emotes. Hammy antics increase morale.

"Nt"

Actually offering friendship to nontoxics

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > > Bro you know PvP have certain elite that can kill you with only 3 skills may be 4 if you see them coming no one cares not even ANET that why they keep buffing them

> > > >

> > > > If somebody solo killed you in 3-4 skills then you don't know how to use your kit properly. There's no other way to put it, that's a possibility until you learn how to use your defenses, then retaliate.

> > > >

> > > > > i mean do anyone even bother himself to learn how to counter certain elites with all the passive healing and all that damage modifiers and the condi vomit

> > > >

> > > > You're right, certainly easier to not bother to learn how to counter certain elites and then just blame the design and ArenaNet

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I mean, deadeye can legit nuke someone in <1s. From stealth, mark, binding shadow, dj, 3rb until they respawn

> >

> > According to chaith you don't know how to use your kit properly.

>

> I have a video of this exact phenomenon!

>

>

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > Learn 2 play

>

> I'm such a kitten noob.

>

> seriously though, that's with a demolisher ammy on. what i should have done is hit plague signet in the .2s between getting knocked down and downed, then dodged behind the wall on the side and somehow kited away from him while he's in stealth

>

Why are you going to a side node alone as a reaper with no lf, knowing there's a thief on the opposing team? This is somewhat into the match too, which means there was opportunity to learn it was deadeye.

You have a mesmer, a rev, and two guards on your team, and mid was free. Not to mention the guard was coming to help you.

You're not going to win vs a deadeye with no LF as reaper unless the deadeye is bad. at best you will push him off. Once you have a deadeye on your opposing team as a necro, you move where he is not and push where he is with help. If you had waited for the guard that would have gone differently.

You seem to be aware of this too. You slotted NCSY, so you're obv specced for nuking a point where there's a bunker. If you want to attempt sidenoding as reaper you should have spectral armor slotted with your finger hovering over it the moment you are unaccompanied.

It's disappointing that the very nature of wintrading and team ups is so destructive to the player pool.

Allow people to team up? Wintrading spikes. lower pools get steamrolled. Everyone suffers.

Make people go solo? Team players leave the game. People pine about not being able to team up with friends in a team game. People rage about afkers/people not pulling their weight. Everyone suffers.

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > @"Poelala.2830" said:

> > > @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > > Zollec is Rev. The other guy is not rev.

> > >

> > > Rev was nerfed since s12.

> >

> > Helio played revenant in over 80% of his games in season 12. Rev was buffed this most recent patch.

>

> I have **NEVER** seen this name on Rev, and I spent s12 top 50 all season until like last 3 days brah. Let's talk **facts**

>

> Have you ever played Rev? This patch was a major nerf.

Herald rework made me slightly stronger. Wasnt as nerf-ish as I thought when I actually sat down and ran the numbers.

You're gonna need to rebuild but herald as a line is slightly better now.

I needed this. I was a little miffed about actual problems, but it's nice to see there's mesmers that think Revenants are OP.

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Judges Intervention is a problem. At least give it a 1/4 sec cast time (+ animation ofc).

Let's nerf one of the ports of the second least mobile class in the game because

Damage.png Damage: 133 (0.5)?

Burning.png Burning (8s): 1048 Damage

is too much. Let's also ignore that _It's one of their stunbreaks_ and that the things that -make- it formidable, namely, hammer skills, all have animation tells. Lets also neglect to mention that giving JI its own animation would break every combo that utilizes it.

If you're afraid of getting banished, look for a guard winding up while not next to you.

If you're afraid of getting warded, look for a guard winding up while not next to you.