Azure The Heartless.3261

Thanks for the effort to create a more cohesive balance team, guys and girls. I'm sure the wailing souls in the Heart of the Mists will be eager to try them by fire.

Condi Mesmers are annoying to fight because someone thought that a class being able to load you with 20+ stacks of torment (which punishes you for moving) and 20+ stacks of confusion (which punishes you for acting) on burst and **guarantee** the burst if you do not have a stunbreak at any point in time _also_ needed to be able to break stuns on dodges and continue casting skills they may have started while dodging, with a dodge mechanic that counts as an invulnerable so there is no way to stop them from dodging.

Someone on the balance team, with a lot of development clout, really likes mesmer.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works.

>

> I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED

> **unless the player chooses EM trait.**

This would work for me too. Then Infinite Horizon would be your damage GM and Elusive Mind would be your defensive GM.

Haven't seen any major lag apart from fringe events in several months.

The only thing that needs to go on Mesmers is Elusive Mind. Other than that toxic trait they're obnoxious, but fine.

Spellbreakers are a slow burn down if you don't trigger their Full Counter.

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > **you are crazy glassy and get oneshot immediately if you do a mistake**, but _still it's too forgiving_ when you spam stealth.

> > > Only few classes give you lot of trubles, holo, maybe a good rev too, dh if he manage to land even one f1 skill. Or spellbreakers with the pull.

> >

> > Read what you wrote. there's 9 classes and almost half of them are losing battles from the get go.

> > I've said it once and I'll say it again. Annoying to fight does not necessarily mean broken. if a class goes down in one or two well timed hits, but it's incredibly annoying to get those hits in, it's not automatically unfair.

> >

> > If you want to drastically increase thieves survivability in combat so they dont have to use stealth as much, go for it. Think about how that affects pvp nodes, though.

> > You cannot have both a highly visible and highly fragile target though. nobody will play it. The last time Anet tried that people shelved their thieves.

>

> You go down in one hit or two, true.

>

> But camping rifle at long range and spamming dodges you can kill your opponent in one or two hits as well tho.

>

> Today playing dh I got rekt by a deadeye so easily, I even landed all my f1 pulls and he just stunbreak, remove reveal and dodge stealth again, then I always dodged the unblockable rifle oneshot hit, it has a pretty obvious sound and animation and used my shield properly to absorb damage.

>

> I was full health, he stealthed again, malicious stab for 18k I was downed without any tell.

>

> If played right it's pretty cheesy and unfair.

Consider that, as DH, you have traps you can sit on to prevent a thief from backstabbing you, and at that point any pull that puts the thief in a damaging trap after stunbreak will in most cases immediately down them, or make them have to reset. Even tagging a thief with spear of justice invalidates their shadow meld, if DE, for 6 seconds.

If you got put in a position to be backstabbed as DH, it's pretty likely you got outplayed. That means you got aegis tapped off of you, did not have an on demand aegis, did not have renewed focus, and did not have any damaging or aegis granting trap underneath you to ward off the thief. (if you did not have renewed focus, then you did not stand on dragon's maw). I can understand how it looks cheesy on the other side, but that match is mechanically weighted in your favor. Dragonhunter was built to hard counter thieves.

Just because you couldn't see the actual backstab didn't mean the possibility of it was not telegraphed. At max malice, you get a voice cue from the Deadeye no matter how far away you are, and the boons granted by mal 7 last 10 seconds. So you should expect either a DJ or backstab within 10 seconds once the thief vanishes after that sound cue. They must attack within that time, or else they lose the damage boost from their boons and risk not downing you.

Also keep in mind that all of that time, in conquest pvp, the thief is off of the point while you sit on it, so that strategy is detrimental where it matters.

Stealth is obnoxious sure, but I can't wrap my head around how being extremely fragile and having to announce presence and telegraph kill moves in the case of deadeye doesn't balance out that perk.

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

**you are crazy glassy and get oneshot immediately if you do a mistake**, but _still it's too forgiving_ when you spam stealth.

> Only few classes give you lot of trubles, holo, maybe a good rev too, dh if he manage to land even one f1 skill. Or spellbreakers with the pull.

Read what you wrote. there's 9 classes and almost half of them are losing battles from the get go.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Annoying to fight does not necessarily mean broken. if a class goes down in one or two well timed hits, but it's incredibly annoying to get those hits in, it's not automatically unfair.

If you want to drastically increase thieves survivability in combat so they dont have to use stealth as much, go for it. Think about how that affects pvp nodes, though.

You cannot have both a highly visible and highly fragile target though. nobody will play it. The last time Anet tried that people shelved their thieves.

> @"Pyraxy.1902" said:

> > @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> > I'll just leave this very revealing piece of information here.

> >

>

> _Almost all of these skills aren't even viable_ considering the build you are forcing yourself to play for these skills lmao.

kek

its funny because 90% of them are meta, and tainted shackles is automatically given to anyone insane enough to play core necro.

> @"Genoshock.2104" said:

> Yes, but elitism pressure from raids?

From what elites?

Ele could use some love. Lets just hope they dont break kitten to kitten.

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> Cute concept. Inaccurate but cute. Essentially what you are saying is that every single mirage player has absolutely no skill, thus being carried by their class.

He's obviously exaggerating, but consider: If a class can carry the majority of players that do not have skill and mechanically inflate their flailing into a threat, whether or not any mirages have skill is irrelevant when it comes to specifically handling them in a duel. If it carries novices and makes them competent, it makes competent players nightmarish and cheapens the value of their effort.

There are certainly skilled mesmers. Their presence does not make the claim that their class carries them or its playerbase less valid.

When I get in that situation I ask myself three things really quickly.

1.) Am I likely to get downed or interrupted if I attempt to rez? If I am playing something tanky or with a damage inversion/stab trait/pushback/assistance on rez, I am more likely to attempt.

2.) How low are the other two players? If they are both low I will down them both and then rez, or down one and then rez depending on their response to cleave.

3.) What class is the downed individual? Are we going to lose the point? If they are a class that has usable downed skills to avoid being stomped/cleaved, or can rev if pressure is taken off them, I might delay. I tend to partial rev wars in a pinch so they know not to vengeance if I am in a position to rev them.

I'd argue Necromancer, but it really depends on what you mean by nerfs.

If you mean nerf as in "any balance change that led to a decrease in strength" I wouldn't be able to tell you. Everyone's been on the chopping block pretty frequently over the course of GW2s life.

If you mean nerf as in "any balance change that led to a drop from the meta" every class has had a kick from the meta except Mesmer and maybe Guard(as far as I know).

if you mean nerf as in "which class has been most aggressively balanced" probably Thief., with Revenant right behind them.

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > You should gear your focus towards specific trait lineups. Doing the legwork to determine specifically what trait lineups lead to oneshots in what situations will at best draw Anet's attention to people getting too much reward out for their skill input, or at worst let you see what you need to avoid.

>

> i know all that but do you believe that we can draw ANET attention regards SPVP

> i did this post to see the pvper's reaction to oneshot builds mechanics and i see now that they wanted these build to stay as they are

I think Arenanet is largely ignoring the oneshot argument because it's presented as a loaded claim by nature. Usually most builds that lead to a kill are several skills used in quick succession, and that on its own takes significant skill to execute, if they have a particular order or timing in which they must be used. If there were specific builds that incorporated one or two button presses to immediately down someone, I'm pretty sure we'd have a patch somewhere in the works or a dev comment on it, but a lot of the concern and complaint about "oneshot" builds are people too unaware of their opponent's kit to know that they just got hit with a half dozen skills at once, or too unwilling to acknowledge that they got hit with several skills in succession and did not respond promptly enough to stay alive.

If you specifically isolate skills or skill rotations that you find to be problematic, you'll either see flaws in them you can exploit or have a solid case for why something is OP. That's probably why they dont respond to every single "oneshot cheese" cry.

Not to say that Anet is by habit speedy when there are breakdowns of why something is cheesy or broken to begin with, but just a thought.

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> +10% damage while your health is above 90% is a very good damage modifier that used in the oneshoot builds so how about give these builds some down side-

Nerfing Scholar Rune by increasing the HP requirement won't stop oneshot builds. Most people who get blown up by oneshots do not have retaliation up 100% of the time and largely do not dodge. And even for those matchups that would suffer from this, exploitation sigil would largely cover the difference.

You should gear your focus towards specific trait lineups. Doing the legwork to determine specifically what trait lineups lead to oneshots in what situations will at best draw Anet's attention to people getting too much reward out for their skill input, or at worst let you see what you need to avoid.

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > > > > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said:

> > > > > > > tbh i think mesmers are ok in spvp now

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Take a good look at condi mirage with axe/x and x/pistol and then tell me if they're ok in sPvP.

> > > > >

> > > > > Assuming that the first mirage is rank 43 and there is a mesmer every 40 place, no doubt it's fine ...

> > > > > And about op, it's been since launch that thieves do that.

> > > > > If the same level as other class is being 2 shoted by gard's purge, then just remove the class please.

> > > >

> > > > Balance should be aimed to the average players range, not top rankers and in the average players level, mesmer is OP.

> > >

> > > The average player also thinks retaliation is a problem. . . .

> > > PvP balance should not be aimed for the lower portion of the totem pole.

> >

> > I'd argue that PvP balance aimed at the lower portion of the totem pole is what created Mirage's trait design in the first place and elevated Chronomancer to its recent toxicity.

>

> Chronomancers "recent" rise was quickly met with a nerf to every trait and skill that made it viable. I havent seen a chronomancer build after that, that would be considered viable. Mirages trait design or specifically one trait on mirage has been a problem sine inception.

> But I do agree with you. I think **every** class elite from PoF was designed and targeted for the bottom of the totem pole.

Inclined to agree with that with the exception of weaver and renegade. Those are both apparently harder.

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Murmaider.1805" said:

> > > Both of these so much, Exploiting the game engine is Mesmer's downfall. The Clone AI is just as **pathetic** as pet/minion AI. You hear that @ANET , **PATHETIC!!!!!!!111one**

> >

> > So are you angry that exploiting the bad AI of clones is damaging to Mesmer and want them buffed, accepting that exploiting the clone AI is one of the only ways to fight your class, arguing that clone exploiting makes Mesmers balanced, all three, or none of those?

> >

>

> Dude, did you get your quotes wrong or is it a bug?^^

>

> On topic: Yeah, mesmer needs another rework. Improve AI and all that. Make shatters ranged 1500.

I'm genuinely curious as to why people are going "we need to abuse mirage clone pathing to create an opening to beat the toxic" and the general response to that is "yeah, mesmer needs more buffs".

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said:

> > > > > tbh i think mesmers are ok in spvp now

> > > >

> > > > Take a good look at condi mirage with axe/x and x/pistol and then tell me if they're ok in sPvP.

> > >

> > > Assuming that the first mirage is rank 43 and there is a mesmer every 40 place, no doubt it's fine ...

> > > And about op, it's been since launch that thieves do that.

> > > If the same level as other class is being 2 shoted by gard's purge, then just remove the class please.

> >

> > Balance should be aimed to the average players range, not top rankers and in the average players level, mesmer is OP.

>

> The average player also thinks retaliation is a problem. . . .

> PvP balance should not be aimed for the lower portion of the totem pole.

I'd argue that PvP balance aimed at the lower portion of the totem pole is what created Mirage's trait design in the first place and elevated Chronomancer to its recent toxicity.

> @"Arlette.9684"

> Both of these so much, Exploiting the game engine is Mesmer's downfall. The Clone AI is just as **pathetic** as pet/minion AI. You hear that @ANET , **PATHETIC!!!!!!!111one**

So are you angry that exploiting the bad AI of clones is damaging to Mesmer and want them buffed, accepting that exploiting the clone AI is one of the only ways to fight your class, arguing that clone exploiting makes Mesmers balanced, all three, or none of those?

> @"Nova.3817" said:

> please delete the leaderboard entirely and reenable team que i'll take that trade anyday

You mean unranked?

> @"Lucentfir.7430" said:

> I'm starting to think **_some _**of the people vouching for return of duo/multi man queue under this guise of not caring about competitiveness and being all for fun with friends with good rewards were really only vouching for it to get a easier time to get those top 250 titles and now they're upset because Anet is removing the whole point to get the queue back and calling it bad.

Oh hey, who put that elephant there~

> @"guigui.9420" said:

> Recognition is our greatest goal. We do not need gold or equipment, we need RECOGNITION.

Now couple things:

I get that the titles are a huge motivating factor to PVP at all, and I'm generally against taking away motivating factors for PVP. to be honest, we need as many of those as we can get and it seems to me that there should be more focus on removing/clearly identifying the cheating players than removing the incentive for them to cheat in the first place.

Some perspective though. If you need a title to be recognized as a good or notable player I think you're going about it wrong, especially when those same titles can be achieved by gaming the system. Not trying to argue for their removal but I think there are less exploitable ways to be feared/renowned in the pvp community.

The hole in the nav mesh that allowed that to happen needs to be patched.

Thieves already get flak for just playing, we dont need toxic players exploiting port bugs on top of that.

Alexa confirmed Golem Mk3

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > > **Swiss:**

> > > > > There hasn't been much to update. Work continues, it's just been more complicated than we hoped. But a lot of progress has been made in the last couple weeks. Sometime in the next few weeks, we'll have another update to the tournament backend systems that should be mostly invisible to you. But it will contain a lot of the things needed by swiss.

> > > > >

> > > > > **On-Demand AT's:**

> > > > > This has been pushed to after swiss. It unfortunately needed more UI work than we originally hoped.

> > > > >

> > > > > **Bonus update: Special Tournaments:**

> > > > > The server work mentioned in the above swiss section is also needed for special tournaments.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for the update.

> > > >

> > > > Do you have anything else planned for PvP and/or a time frame for when Swiss will be completed?

> > >

> > > We do have other plans, but I don't really want to talk about them yet since several are still not approved and might be some time away/not happen at all.

> > >

> > > I have a general idea of when swiss might be done, but it's far enough away that I don't want to hazard saying when.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If swiss will be done by December thats fine by me. If your looking at at 2019 drop of swiss that be very dissapointing.

>

> We're certainly targeting a release of swiss format tournaments this year. I'll also be disappointed if it slips to 2019.

Appreciate the hard work.

Assuming you don't hear that often enough.

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> That would make skills like Shadow Refuge (teef), Veil (Mesmer), Smoke cloud (Smokescale - Ranger), Stealth Gyro (Engi) and others useless and irrevelent. AA round them and Poof....they are now useless.

Yeah but, to be fair, stealth is no fair and people who use it should be punished.