Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"geist.9173" said:

> > @"Xarimath.4518" said:

> > When the mesmer goes in stealth, start counting until 3, and when is about 2.5s, just press dodge and you will evade most of the damage and this will give you opportunity to survive and counterplay.

>

> And when you don't see him stealth you die. Good mechanic.

> Just kill the option to do it. End of story.

>

Not only is mesmer stealth not stackable to the effect that they can be permanently invisible until they engage, most power mesmers will not use blink to engage unless they absolutely -know- they will kill you with burst, and will save it for disengage in case they whiff or get stunned. In addition to that, some linked stealth skills they employ have visual effects, like Mass Invis or The Prestige.

If you let a power mesmer sneak up on you, you p. much deserve that burst. which you can also mitigate by immediately stunbreaking and dodging.

Core GS/Shatter/explosion mesmer is not a problem in most cases. Pocket a stunbreak to clear power lock stun from confounding suggestions and you'll live.

Mesmer is annoying, but if the builds present a decent drawback annoying is fine.

In case you haven't noticed, people like playing cheese when they can in most cases. If the build is F2P and yet you aren't seeing everyone play it, chances are it doesnt carry people as much as they need.

[Howling Tortured Screams in the distance]

(on topic: It is literally almost the opposite of when you left)

> @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> Stealth makes someone Invisible, **not** Invincible.

> It's a pretty big difference.

>

> Also, many Thief players would love to have an option to actually play as a Duelist/Bruiser type of build that doesn't actually rely on Stealth (*look at the many S/D players and the occasional Staff builds*). Sadly, these options are far from viable against anyone of somewhat equal skill on a different profession...

>

> So instead we got to rely on rather gimmicky (one-shot) builds. That's what the years of ranting and resulting nerfs about our non-stealth sustain have led us to. You ranters called this all over yourselves, hah!

This.

I'd love to play something more visible and make use of my damaging skills more often, but when thief players were effective sidenoders people called us overpowered because we had the best disengage in game, and slowly thieves got pushed more and more toward brittle and had hard counters to them worked into opposing class mechanics.

I'll play something annoying but fragile, I'll play something predictable but more durable, but I wont play a fragile AND predictable class. Either advocate for stealth nerfs and allow thieves to spec as bruisers instead, or enjoy getting backstabbed.

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> if we are now debating DPS thief vs DPS mirage...if on equal skill, the thief should prevail.

I'm inclined to agree with you because lots of mirage's kit requires a target.

Thieves are also more mobile.

Condi Mes on the other hand washes thieves every time.

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > And my point is that if all Mirage brings is a slightly longer dodge and being able to channel skills during it, it's not enough because most of the innate skills from Mesmer are unimpactful.

> >

> > *squint*

> >

> > Why are you avoiding talking about Mirage Cloaks ability to provide evade while CCed without taking Elusive Mind? That's the meat of the issue here if I'm reading this properly.

> > What you stated is not all Mirage brings. The way it stands now, as long as a Mirage has half endurance it can avoid any subsequent follow up to stun by dodging, whether or not Elusive Mind is traited. The facts that the dodge is slightly longer and channeling is uninterrupted are annoying, but less relevant.

>

> That is exactly what I mentioned. Read into it just a little.

I misread what you were getting at, initially. Apologies for that.

I'm inclined to disagree that the dodge-while-stunned is the glue that holds mirage together as a spec, rather than what is specifically allowing it to overperform though, because there are several other avenues mesmer has to avoid damage while stunned or avoid bursts from stun altogether. That kind of defense should not be as freely accessible as it currently is.

> @"Scar.1793" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"Scar.1793" said:

> > > This sums up my thoughts.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > And I’ve played Rogue and every assassin/stealth classes in a lot of MMO. It’s just easy mode in GW2. If it was only stealth... but no. They need to have tons of teleports and way to disengage and engage from miles and doing 25k+ backstabs from the shadows. Bonus if you’re deadeye for perma stealth.

> >

> > This is 2015...

>

> Yes, funny it did not changed much since then, right?

>

>

These aren't the WvW forums. Food, armor rarity, trinkets, amulets and other factors all influence balance in that game mode. If that build is possible in spvp vs an armored opponent, then we can talk about adjustment.

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> And my point is that if all Mirage brings is a slightly longer dodge and being able to channel skills during it, it's not enough because most of the innate skills from Mesmer are unimpactful.

*squint*

Why are you avoiding talking about Mirage Cloaks ability to provide evade while CCed without taking Elusive Mind? That's the meat of the issue here if I'm reading this properly.

What you stated is not all Mirage brings. The way it stands now, as long as a Mirage has half endurance it can avoid any subsequent follow up to stun by dodging, whether or not Elusive Mind is traited. The facts that the dodge is slightly longer and channeling is uninterrupted are annoying, but less relevant.

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> >I'd rather focus on strong trait synergies that allow classes to do multiple roles or be carried without needing to have situational awareness.

>

> Oh you mean like Corona Burst/Holographic Shockwave? xD

>

lmao @ stability on Corona Burst = free shockwave

But yeah. if a class is bunkering hard but still putting out a lot of damage, then devs need to take a look at what role the class/build is intended to play and skew it so it gives more of one avenue and less of the other. Doesnt matter if that's spellbreaker, mirage, Holo, deadeye or whatever else. If you want to roll something forgiving, you should put out less damage as a general rule. I think messing with health without addressing that issue will cause more problems than it fixes right now, but I'm up for being proven wrong on that.

The concept is too nebulous for me to say for a certainty that it would fix anything. I'd be fine with experimenting with it to see what happens for brief periods of time, but I think that the HP spreads are alright right now. I'd rather focus on strong trait synergies that allow classes to do multiple roles or be carried without needing to have situational awareness.

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting.

> > > >

> > > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me?

> > > >

> > > > That's the point?

> > >

> > > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth:

> >

> > why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM

> >

> > :o

>

> You're not entitled to a burst just because you landed a CC effect, otherwise stun break wouldn't even exist.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying you __should have to use a break or blink__ to avoid a burst after being CCed. Tying burst avoidance to dodges that be used at any point while CCed is too forgiving.

It's a good addition but only if they can reasonably bust up win trading. Removal of it feels like they've admitted they can't consistently catch them, and now the people that exploited the system have some of the rarest titles in the game.

> @"Iceman.5912" said:

> Hi, all, I'm a raider that's bored (I'm guessing there are a lot of us) that would like to try my hand at spvp. I have very little knowledge, but I'd like to eventually get to the point where I'm a competent pvper, able to hold my own in ranked queues, and eventually be a part of a team that's able to also hold their own in ATs. I'm looking for advice on the best way to go about learning and improving my play.

>

> My current thought is to choose a class, learn the basics of it and play the "meta" build for a bit so I'm familiar with how it works, and then move on the next class. The idea is that when I eventually face that class it would benefit me to understand what they are trying to do on their end. After getting a decent handle on all classes I would choose one that I like and try to focus on that. Then work my way up ranked to the point where I feel comfortable in the game mode, and look to join a team for ATs.

>

> Does that seem like a reasonable plan? Any specific classes I should learn first? Or don't need to learn? Any videos/guides worthy of watching? Appreciate any help or direction you provide.

Good plan, welcome to the mists.

> @"Senteliks.2360" said:

> That's great. But not everyone does that, and not everyone will. A lot people want and probably have time to play and learn at most 2-3 professions or stick to one. I am just saying that removing is not solution but also there can possibility where mechanic if tweaked properly can make almost everyone happy (at the end you can't make everyone happy). Or to come up with an alternative that would composite for change in invisibility. The way I see it, sooner or later Anet will re-design everything, so sarcasm is not going to help anyone.

Ok, sarcasm off.

The point I am trying to make with that note is that every class has the potential to drop a thief as they stand right now, if they are not built in such a way that makes them vulnerable.

Asking for an entire mechanic to be changed because you cannot be bothered to learn it/how thieves generally behave when stealthed, which implies you think your time invested is more important than the time of people who spent time learning the class to be that effective to begin with, isn't a valid enough reason to reasonably demand a rework or tweak of stealth.

You asked me "why not switch the places". I'm telling you that I've done that and still don't see an issue with stealth objectively as a mechanic. It's not about how many classes people play. That being said, if by some event stealth does get toned down, thieves will need to have both damage and defense increased to compensate for the reduction. The span of that rework reaches much farther than stealth because I expect very few thieves will play a fragile, highly visible class competitively without some kind of active defense.

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> but that is more a range than stealth issue :3

Exactly. If I run into a thief on my reaper, I don't think they're busted, I just don't have the tools to easily deal with them on my build. If I ran core or staff I could probably set up counterpressure.

> @"Senteliks.2360" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > As I lack object permanence and cannot anticipate when a thief engaged with me will generally be, I too would like stealth to be broken upon taking damage.

> > That way, instead of bothering myself with anticipation and strafing, I can just put an AOE down where the thief was last and not have to bother with learning the mechanic or dealing with their stealth attacks.

> > How dare thieves be sneaky. Play a real class.

> >

> >

> > We absolutely must #RemoveStealth2k18

> >

> >

> Bonus points for sarcasm. But not everyone here is going to take game so seriously and try to immerse in ... well game. If you expect everyone to be so hardcore, why not switch the places. How about you play with some other class for awhile and see how those "anticipation", "object permanence", and where "thief will engage" work out in practice for you rather than just words.

>

I play every class. The only class matchup that makes me nervous vs thief is with reaper vs specifically deadeye.

Appreciate the responses, thank you~

> @"LUST.7241" said:

> Seems like a catch-22. While it's fun to queue up with a friend, it hurts competitiveness due to how the system looks at it and those who are the odd-person out in those situations. Ideally, I would work better if it were 2v2, 4v4, or 6v6 (some even number rather than odd)...but maybe we don't have the population for it really to go past 2v2.

If there is a honest attempt at balancing PvP that leads to more people picking it back up, full premades might be doable more often than ATs. Not right now though. Duo's a good place to start and see what happens.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Removing titles is pretty weird. That means people who got away with wintrading have some of the most exclusive titles in the game.

> I really think investigations should be conducted throughout the season to prevent scenarios like that from happening. It doesn't make sense to let wintraders run rampant, hurting people for weeks, only to remove them AFTER the damage has been done.

Quoted for emphasis.

Removing a product you have available for players because some people colluded to obtain it illegitimately punishes the wrong people. Hopefully titles return in an avenue that makes it difficult to wintrade for them.

> @"Pyraxy.1902" said:

> It doesnt rely on stealth at all lmao. Just shortbow 5 and jump to get the most distance out of the skill and get out of any situation you find a threat.

>

> Stop acting like thief is so hard to play.

(#)Thiefdoesntrelyonstealth

(#)Bringbackhightierdoubleshortbow™2018

(#)Wepromisenottosaythievesruntoomuch

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > the mirage reach 40+.

>

> You are on high or ?

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works.

> > >

> > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED

> > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.**

> >

> > This would work for me too. Then Infinite Horizon would be your damage GM and Elusive Mind would be your defensive GM.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Even with that change you will still cry (until its becomes as bad as renegade),what the point?:d

Please tell me other aspects of my future, fortuneteller. <3

I play mesmer. I also play revenant. I just dislike people cheesing wins and labeling it "skill", or people struggling just to perform at baseline with whatever class they like the most. Mesmer has a pretty large buffer to sit on before any large facet of their core or elites become unplayable. They'll handle having to pick one GM for defense over one for damage, just like everyone else.

Bummer about the titles. I'll give this season a shot though.

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Anyway, the usual nonsense consumes this thread. Talk of Mirage spawning 10+ clones when only 3 at a time are possible. Mirage having the ability to use two mutually exclusive grandmaster traits at once. That's all I was commenting on. I don't PvP much, so I'm really not qualified to comment on the impact of torment/confusion in that game mode. Sorry to have rolled you in with the OP.

There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown around, indeed, but the root of it is valid. I play mesmer, but I do not play Mirage. I don't want the class as a whole nerfed into the ground, but they shouldn't stay as they currently are. They need to, by class design, be forced to give up a portion of their potential condi damage to be annoying to catch, or give up their ability to ignore bursts in order to do more damage. Right now they're walking a gray line where they have both of those positive aspects and neither of the drawbacks that would balance them.

There's always going to be people crying about basic things like clones, but occasionally they have a point. We just had a chronomancer fiasco where the phantasm rework caused players to generate excessive amounts of illusions until they nerfed phantasma and made it unappealing to the meta, so people whining about "clones" as a catch all for phantasms and clones (illusions) is not entirely unfounded. Disprove what is obviously crying and address what is not.

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > Condi Mesmers are annoying to fight because someone thought that a class being able to load you with 20+ stacks of torment (which punishes you for moving) and 20+ stacks of confusion (which punishes you for acting) on burst and **guarantee** the burst if you do not have a stunbreak at any point in time _also_ needed to be able to break stuns on dodges and continue casting skills they may have started while dodging, with a dodge mechanic that counts as an invulnerable so there is no way to stop them from dodging.

> > > >

> > > > Someone on the balance team, with a lot of development clout, really likes mesmer.

> > >

> > > I wasn't aware that condi mesmer could produce 20+ stacks of torment "on burst" without taking Infinite Horizon, which they couldn't take if they are instead using Elusive Mind to break stun on dodge.

> > >

> > > 10+ clones, too! Those darn mesmers!

> >

> > Your attempt to dismiss the strength of being able to put the two conditions that, when put together punish players for taking any action as a mere exaggeration falls flat, especially if it's true that you don't need Elusive Mind slotted to use mirage cloak when stunned. Objectively those two facets are immensely strong.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Whatever. Continue with your ridiculous hyperbole and falsehoods. And no, you can't break stun with dodge without elusive mind. Learn to read.

I didn't say break stun, I said use mirage cloak. You can still activate mirage cloak even while cced, correct?

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Condi Mesmers are annoying to fight because someone thought that a class being able to load you with 20+ stacks of torment (which punishes you for moving) and 20+ stacks of confusion (which punishes you for acting) on burst and **guarantee** the burst if you do not have a stunbreak at any point in time _also_ needed to be able to break stuns on dodges and continue casting skills they may have started while dodging, with a dodge mechanic that counts as an invulnerable so there is no way to stop them from dodging.

> >

> > Someone on the balance team, with a lot of development clout, really likes mesmer.

>

> I wasn't aware that condi mesmer could produce 20+ stacks of torment "on burst" without taking Infinite Horizon, which they couldn't take if they are instead using Elusive Mind to break stun on dodge.

>

> 10+ clones, too! Those darn mesmers!

Your attempt to dismiss the strength of being able to put the two conditions that, when put together punish players for taking any action as a mere exaggeration falls flat, especially if it's true that you don't need Elusive Mind slotted to use mirage cloak when stunned. Objectively those two facets are immensely strong.

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> The Systems team mashes together the Skills and Balance, Player versus Player, World versus World, and Rewards Teams. Combining these teams will help to us create more cohesive content and make the most logical changes to Guild Wars 2 while reducing the chances that any particular part of the game will be negatively impacted when there are game-wide changes. The members of the old teams are now sitting in the same area with one another, like one big family composed of gleeful charr, modest sylvari, bashful norn, ornery humans, and whimsical asura.

>

> This means that there is greater communication and sharing of knowledge between everyone involved.

>

> **If a particular profession or elite specialization is out of tune in one game mode, there will be greater communication about it and more traction on changes suited to that mode.** If some rewards are unbalanced and could use a little fine-tuning, it will be much easier for a team member to bring up the need and work with others to discover the best solution.

My interest is regarding the bolded section above. If this is created after a more comprehensive post, apologies and please merge.

As a player with a more weighted interest in PvP content than PvE, I have constantly found myself frustrated by what I perceive as lingering imbalance following a patch or introduction of a new specialization. There is usually consensus on what professions, skills, traits, or mechanics are overperforming, along with scattered reasonable arguments among the [ghostly wailing] in the PvP subforums if the issue is large enough. However, patches to address the issue are infrequent, in many cases miss the mark or exacerbate the problem, and developer interchange/communication regarding the perceived issue is usually muted/neutral in the few cases when it is present at all, outside of the major balance patches.

I'd like to get some elaboration on what you mean by greater communication and more traction.

Will the forums see any of that communication with dev posts? Should we expect to see more developer presence in the PvP forums in particular?

Will balance patches be more frequent?

What criteria will be used to determine what is under or overperforming? metrics? the forums/feedback? A mix of both?

Will hotfixes/hotpatches become a thing for pvp?

What will the scheduling be for patches?

Will they be pushed mid league if the problem is severe enough, or will they tend to be pushed off season?

Do we have developers that also play the classes they balance? Will they be doing this vs each other or in actual matches so they can see what may or may not need tuning?