Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> With all due respect, you Mesmer players are so used to consistently playing SS+ tier builds on the Arenanet favorite child that rarely ever receives true nerfs "usually just alterations", that when a Mesmer spec is actually brought into viable balance amongst other classes, you guys throw a fit and parade around as if "Mesmer was destroyed." Come on now.. Mirage is still by far the most powerful Conquest spec, hands down. You guys need to swallow your OP entitlement as the favorite child and let them balance the game.

>

> If you want to feel what "getting nerfed" really feels like, you ought to try and play some different classes for a few seasons. See if it changes your opinions of Mesmer patching.

This.

"Let them eat cake" syndrome all over the place. A surprising amount of mesmer mains have been coddled so long they can't adapt a fraction as far as their constant buffing has forced everyone else to. Every class in this game has had a dunk in D or F tier as far as conquest/wvw goes, except Mesmer. Mesmer has never dropped below B since the game's conception.

And Condi Mirage can still break stuns by dodging.

And chronomancer is STILL strong, it just isn't canned cheese like it used to be.

> @"Pouloulou.9053" said:

> I didn't cheat or wintrade, tbh rev was rly good this season because it's only bad against condi mes and condi thief and every mes was chrono cancer instead of condi cancer and rev was one of the only class able to 2v1 them kinda easily imo and most condi thieves just insta steal into my dodge spam all the time LUL. I was around 1800-1820 rating for the whole season and then I just got a really lucky win streak at the end hehe

This is inspiring.

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> Ofcourse I understand that just increasing some CC-skill cooldowns is not effective on its own. But making CC-skills less spammable and more meaningful when properly used should not be a goal that is considered too far away. CC-skills might be more intensive to alter than passives, because passives are just passives and with CC-skills you also have to consider stunbreaks and stability. If you think everything is ''fine'' now as it is there is no reason to discuss any further. But if you have some possible solutions it could be interesting. Think of both reducing CC as well as stability access and amount of stunbreaks.

Look carefully at your statement and realize that in your quest to reduce cc, you will need to reduce access to stability and stunbreaks just to rebalance everything.

I think it's a lot of work for no reason, when most classes can spec for a stunbreak or stability when they need it. If you repeatedly get chain stunlocked by the same combo, learn from that and examine where to stunbreak. You're asking to overhaul the game because a couple of classes can chain stun you, while neglecting to realize that behavior serves as a stopgap for builds that would otherwise overperform.

I have not run into a situation reently where I was chain stunned such that I could not react against it on any class, with the exception of situations where I was clearly outplayed or not geared to fight the spec I was currently facing. The closest I have come to that kind of situation is on Revenant pre mallyx buff, and that was because I didnt play shiro (which has stunbreaks on demand, as long as you are in shiro and have the energy). Most classes have an option to deal with stuns, and repeatedly fighting the class you have trouble with will let you know what to dodge to avoid cc links.

Elusive mind should be testament to the fact that allowing people to ignore stuns has a threshold before it starts creating overperforming builds. If you think a class or a build is too stun heavy, focus on that class or build and we can go from there. Toning down all stun with such a hamfisted approach will break more than it fixes.

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > Any nerf of CC at this point would result in CC being unusable in pvp.

> >

> > This ^

> >

> > Asking them to overhaul the CC system at this point would create such a tremendous amount of balance issues that it wouldn't be worth it.

> >

>

> Tell us why? CC can just be spammed now, just like passives were spammed. I don't see why altering this wouldn't promote more healthy gameplay. You have to start somewhere. If something would cause balance issues it should not immediately be off the table. Doing nothing causes balance issues as well, which is easily illustrated by the current season.

Okay.

Let's do it.

> Increase the cooldown of CC-skills.

Let's say all CC skills were increased by 20%. Every Skill in the game that does pull, launch, knockdown, knockback, stun. petrify and float all get a significant cd increase. Immediately, all classes with low mobility suffer because classes with kiting potential, stability with faster uptime than the stun uptimes, and ability to completely ignore stun by way of traits all become dramatically advantaged. You would need to balance the following.

Stability as a boon.

Mesmer, specifically Mirage.

Thief (all variants)

Guard (all variants)

Warrior, specifically Zerker Warrior.

Retribution Revenants.

If the CD is too high for these skills to be considered feasible, people will refuse to run them and will opt for more damage based skills. We will potentially move from the game state as it is now, where you can be stunlocked but have a chance to escape through wise use of stun breaks, to a game state where you will either melt immediately or be melted immediately.

The alternative is people who now have bunker builds only weak against stun will be more effective as tanks. Both of those situations would lead to the game being more frustrating immediately. To manage this, you'd need to balance:

Elementalist

Holosmith/Engineer

Necro (Core and scourge)

> Invent something that makes it impossible to get CC-chained. For example: if you are dazed/stunned/launched you can't be dazed/stunned/launched again in the next 3 seconds or something.

This benefits the highly mobile and the bunker classes as stated above.

> Remove CC-skills from every weapon, and make them solely utility- or trait-based.

You would have to balance every single weapon in the game, and every traitline in the game. This would amount to a game overhaul.

> Remove CC-skills from every utility and trait, and make them solely weapon-based.

You would have to balance every single weapon in the game, and every traitline in the game. This would amount to a game overhaul.

What seems easier? Taking an extra stunbreak, or renovating the game, given that Arenanet takes half a year to address balance issues if things run according to plan?

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> >

> > > I realise now that no amount of nerfs will solve mesmer problem for example, the traitlines for this class are so....busted that's no matter what you nerf ..they can come up always on top so why keep nerfing them instead than buff the traitlines for all others?

> >

> > They're almost balanced. All that's left is Elusive mind. put a hefty ICD on it and the rest can be handled with learning the MU.

> >

> >

>

> You can talk about MU only when a class has at least 2 bad ones out of any meta...not when your only **possible** bad MU is an "unicorn" not meta build played at semi WTS levels, nerfing EM won't strip mirage of their OP elite **jaunt** with which they can outrun/catch...everything?!, won't remove their stealth into distortion and won't remove their GS one shot combo and also it won't remove their spammable reflect heal/trait combo....basically you can speak about MU when your spec stop having the edge over 99% of the game..

Jaunt isn't OP, and literally everything you mentioned can be handled by learning the matchup. any damage following a stun will put them on the defensive. The moment you put a, lets say, 90-120 ICD on EM that triggers whenever they remove stun, they have to think about what they'll do when their rotation gets interrupted.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Sinful.2165" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Sinful.2165" said:

> > > > This makes zero sense. If something is overpowered why wouldn’t you tone it down instead of buffing everything else?

> > > >

> > > > Actually, you’re right. Let’s just skip all the buffing non sense until you inevitably arrive at the solution that everyone gets 1 dmg skill that 1 shots anyone and 2 dodges just to keep the games going longer than 10 seconds.

> > >

> > > Did you actually read the full post or just the title and made an assumption ?

> >

> > Of course I read the whole post, suggesting that the devs intensify power creep by actively avoiding nerfs.. because the term has a negative connotation? Is ridiculous. Balance is a very delicate thing. Mistakes will be made, players will abuse things in ways the devs didn’t anticipate and adjustments up or down will need to be made.

> >

> > Why is that a difficult concept to grasp for people who are so against nerfing?

>

> > @"Sinful.2165" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Sinful.2165" said:

> > > > This makes zero sense. If something is overpowered why wouldn’t you tone it down instead of buffing everything else?

> > > >

> > > > Actually, you’re right. Let’s just skip all the buffing non sense until you inevitably arrive at the solution that everyone gets 1 dmg skill that 1 shots anyone and 2 dodges just to keep the games going longer than 10 seconds.

> > >

> > > Did you actually read the full post or just the title and made an assumption ?

> >

> > Of course I read the whole post, suggesting that the devs intensify power creep by actively avoiding nerfs.. because the term has a negative connotation? Is ridiculous. Balance is a very delicate thing. Mistakes will be made, players will abuse things in ways the devs didn’t anticipate and adjustments up or down will need to be made.

> >

> > Why is that a difficult concept to grasp for people who are so against nerfing?

>

> Why is that difficult to understand that Anet will never nerf anything to acceptable levels...not anymore?

> The playerbase of this game has been fed on low risk=high reward mantra for years now...you remove that and you remove the players, it would be suicide for a company...Anet won't do that.

>

> There is no more room to talk or ideals, it's time to wake up and smell the coffie...the whole "competitive" dream is gone and it's not coming back anytime soon...**so it's time to stop this crap where you can train your dog to use 3-4 classes in this game...while you need a degree in applied physic to use other classes**

>

>

> how many examples like this do you need?

>

> https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2018/21/6/1527342997-ffff.jpg

> do you need more to get my point?

>

>

That was actually a really amazing play and overcoming cheese circles with a tiny group must have felt amazing.

Face it, the game has changed. there's more cheese. We have to handle it or quit.

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> No one likes it. No one votes for it, it just auto picks it when it's available.

Lmao the ghosts in the mists like spectator events

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > 6 times playing it out of last 10 matches.

> > > 4 times in a row.

> > >

> > > Stop picking this map, for the love of God.

> >

> > Clearly, many somebodies like it, though...

>

> No. No one likes it.

That's where you're wrong, my guy~

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> I realise now that no amount of nerfs will solve mesmer problem for example, the traitlines for this class are so....busted that's no matter what you nerf ..they can come up always on top so why keep nerfing them instead than buff the traitlines for all others?

They're almost balanced. All that's left is Elusive mind. put a hefty ICD on it and the rest can be handled with learning the MU.

Challenging. You're never going to fix toxic people, bad matchups, or bad connections, but you should still strive to acquire class balance to make sure that losses largely stem from player failings. Once you give imbalance to a class, you will still have player failings but they will be exacerbated by people playing the specs with the largest safety net.

Losing due to a bad comp will lead some people to refine their skills. Losing because there are builds in game that counter the majority of the other playstyles generally causes people who would otherwise practice to quit.

It's in no way easy, but it's one of those things you should keep hitting frequently, so that there is more initiative to practice, a foundation for a healthy meta, and a use for most specs in the game in the PVP sphere.

Keep in mind there is a difference between "Spvp balance" when applied to "player experience" and "Spvp balance" when applied to "class balance", though the two overlap.

There will be players who never understand how to rotate. There will be players who have egos so fragile they afk the moment nobody pushes far with their slow class when the opposing team is on respawn and they get ganked. Those things will cause games that would be otherwise fine to crumble. That being said, there should still be the potential for comps to rival each other on equal tactical footing without one class being able to cover multiple tasks at once in any scenario. We are slowly approaching that, even with the existence of scourge.

It's going to always need tweaking, but there's a threshold where it would be considered adequate and reasonable.

> @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> Mesmer is definitely dead, Anet just killed the totally balanced chrono build, and obviously mirage doesn't have enough damage or escapes and actually needed a buff. Elusive mind needs a buff. Portal needs to have its cd reduced to 20 seconds. For some reason people still play this class, they should all switch to rev or ele, the real strong classes in the meta.

this

Credit where Credit is due.

These changes are spot on for the Chronobunker overperforming spec.

Now if we could just do something about Elusive mind. I don't even care that Mirage can do stupid condi burst with staff. That's fine. The only thing we need is to be able to lock the mirage down if they screw up.

Good progress though. Thanks for paying attention dev team.

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Meteor.3720" said:

> > I thought this was going to be an ironic post making fun of how weak and buggy rev is ... but it's actually someone complaining about rev being OP.

> >

> > Oh dear.

>

> What's more ironic is (as far as I know) OP is a Mesmer main.

If true then lol

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> Didn't hit him with a single one unless I used steal to jump to him

>

> Can we get it un-nerfed now that people who aren't clueless 1st day in pvp rookies know how to avoid this ability by WALKING (not dodging) TO ONE SIDE? Thanks

Lmao that's hilarious

> @"dominik.9721" said:

> it is meta and people do complain about it.

> chrono is just even more kitten because with chrono every single trashcan is able to survive 1v2/1v3, no matter how bad they are

This.

At this point in time I'd rather a class be cheesy with its damage but killable, than be cheesy and have an entire library of skills at their disposal for avoiding damage/ escaping.

> @"Vague Memory.2817" said:

> What you guys are saying makes no sense, how do you counter it, if no line of sight is required? The guy was on the opposite side of a wall, I didn't see any tell at all.

If you did not see the rev, he successfully opened on you, seeing as how he had line of sight long enough to get target.

Dodge the followup.

Treat it like you would a basi-touched steal that you just stunbroke.

New deadeye is viable if you are good with DP/Swords/Pistols

I've put together a [redacted] build that runs three cantrips. It's good for dueling.

Funnily enough, the rework seems to have broken the weapon you get with the spec.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> I made a video to show it is too easy to need a fix. Sorry if the music is not to your tastes.

>

> https://youtu.be/IQfvrcY4Ns8

This deserves a series.

slowed down explanations of basic things that people find too hard to do to uncomfortably sensual jazz music.

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> Btw I use all the skills from 1 to 5 when I play staff :)

_Lying through your teeth lmao_

Also every thief build is trash get it right. There's no build on thief that is not obnoxious to fight.~

> @"Liewec.2896" said:

> its synergy and stacking,

> maul/world breaker already hit hard but rangers also have things like:

> "Moment of Clarity"(marksmanship master) +50% damage on next hit after interrupting enemy.

> "Remorseless" (marksmanship GM): +25% damage on next hit when you gain fury (also this hit is always a crit because of the minor trait "Precise Strike")

>

> add that to lots of little extras like:

> "Furious Strength" (soulbeast minor) +7% damage while you have fury.

> "Twice as Vicious" (soulbeast minor) +5% damage for 4 seconds when disabling a foe.

> "Oppressive Superiority" (soulbeast GM) +10% damage to foes with less health percentage than you.

> "Two handed Training" (beastmastery master) +10% damage with greatsword

> "pet's prowess" (beastmastery minor) 10% increased crit damage when merged with pet.

> "loud whistle" (beastmastery minor) 10% increased damage while above 90%hp.

>

> utility skill "Sic em!" grants +40% damage for 10 seconds too

>

> simply interrupting an enemy (with hilt bash), activating "Sic Em!" and granting yourself fury (with Moa Stance for example) will cause your next maul to always crit and deal atleast +147% damage, +167% if your hp is over 90% and above that of your enemy!

> 

>

>

**Dat sexy 20k HP banishment oof**

So, like mesmers, be prepared to stunbreak and dodge when you get dazed/ stunned. Nothing new~

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> But changing its health pool does absolutely nothing to balance a poor class design.

Agreed. We really should be looking at its elites instead of its core. In your eagerness to rein in mesmer, you will destroy the small handful of builds that do not take advantage of the cheese provided by Mirage/Chrono.

Identify specifically what makes its rotation so problematic, and weaken those areas instead of just throwing a wrench into the inner gears of the class. Right now, we have Elusive Mind/Phantasm clutter and perhaps an overtuning of defensive skills so that they can be easily chained when offensive skills are on cooldown.

I find them as annoying as the next person but I'd still like them to be usable.

If there's one thing I agree with in this thread, its that even with the obvious cheese, we should commit to learning how to beat it on our own. We should still complain about it but rule of least resistance does apply to all mmos. If it is easy and effective, people will play it.

> @"Alehin.3746" said:

> lmfao, just press the 2 keys dude

This though

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> Don't stop playing Rev just because it's not viable or because people tell you to stop.

> Rev is probably the most difficult profession to play at the moment, it's what makes it interesting and fun.

Golden advice here.

If you want the glassiest of glass cannons, look no further than power rev.

Condi rev has some clout too, but its significantly harder.

Why are you playing ranked with the current balance, lol?

It's magnetically attracting all the people desperate to prove they're good at something, except if they have a temper tantrum you suffer for it.

Report them so they can have a proper time out.

If you're in it for gizmos, there's no time for being disappointed when you expect any 4 people will not have at least one emotionally unstable person in the group.

If you're in it for fun, we're waiting for you in unranked.

Noticed this as well. I have to swap to Mallyx and then back to Glint for my facets to work properly, and on top of that if I happened to flip any facets over BEFORE this swap, they will be still flipped over when I swap back to glint, and ill have to use them and wait for CD before I get any boons at all.

Obv bug.