Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Cindakid.7483" said:

> youd be surprised how many times ill be in a match on rev, and my defeated opponent will say something along the lines of, "wow i cant wait till anet nerfs you." .

Couple things.

1.) It's true. There are people so bad that they think everything that they lose to is overpowered.

2.) It's not surprising. Dunning-Kruger is a thing. If lose = wow cheese, If win = L2p noob so bad

> @"kipthelip.5802" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > Yeh, soulbeast is pretty strong right now. wonder why people are silent about it.

> > >

> > > So people should complain about what kills them...and be silent about what they kill easy?

> >

> > That's what people do anyway, for the most part.

> > "Nerf Rock, Buff Scissors, Paper is fine" and all that.

>

> That would be meaningful if this was supposed to be a rock, paper, scissors balanced game which it was not. They sold us a load of goods which is that basically every class could fill every role with the right build and that hard counters wouldnt be a thing.

I think you lost the point of that statement.

I used that quote to say that people already complain about what they cannot beat, and are silent about what they can.

That wasn't some quip about what I think game balance should be like, and Arenanet certainly didn't say this:

> hard counters wouldnt be a thing.

I will digress for a moment to say that even on the granular level, you can still technically fill every role. Ranger can be bunker, support or DPS. Necro can be bunker, support or DPS, etc. That does not begin to assert that some classes will not be better at some roles than others (or that they should not be by design). and that is where the proposed imbalances come from.

My point was JUST that "People complain, and it's necessary within reason."

we need people to complain about those proposed imbalances, so we can make sure that there is a version of this "rock, paper, scissors" play and counterplay that includes all of the classes and a reasonable amount of their traits/capabilities. The moment you have a class that approaches *do everything* in ONE build, you ruin the smaller machinery of build variety that the classes can draw from by invalidating them because they outright lose to the one superspec.

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > I'd prefer classes be properly balanced for conquest before attempting new game modes.

> > > > New maps would be fine, but I don't think exploring new game modes is a good step right now until they tidy up steeply overperforming builds.

> > >

> > > Good balance is different for different game modes. Yes, some broken builds would remain broken in other builds. But some stuff that is broken in a conquest style game mode would be well balanced, or even on the weak side, in another game mode that didn't rely at all on capturing and holding nodes. Scourge can be oppressive because their shades can cover an entire node, but if you didn't have to worry about capturing/keeping a node from a scourge, then you would be free to maneuver around them as you fight them, and not have to worry about their team gaining points through that entire fight because they held a node.

> >

> > True!

> >

> > The reason I wish them to balance for conquest, though, is to show that they're willing to do it to as close as reasonably possible, and arent just violently shaking the meta every few months to see what happens. As it stands now, I wouldn't give a new mode much time on release if there isn't a reasonably consistent look at what makes gameplay weak or strong across the spheres. We certainly have enough specs to handle multiple modes, but the moment you introduce another sphere to keep tabs on you reduce balancing speed significantly.

> >

> > And right now its glacial.

>

> Ah, this is a very good point. Still, I very much like the direction their balance team has gone recently. Still not quite as fast at releasing balance patches as I want, and they still seem averse to throwing in hotfixes, but the overall direction is a good one.

I mean, you're right.

There's still issues but it's gotten better. Don't want to miss the improvements by just focusing on the issues.

> @"Highlie.7641" said:

>before we all grab are pitchforks-

>"starter classes".

Oh hey look. Every class that isnt the latest spec is now a starter class.

Everything makes so much sense now.

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > I'd prefer classes be properly balanced for conquest before attempting new game modes.

> > New maps would be fine, but I don't think exploring new game modes is a good step right now until they tidy up steeply overperforming builds.

>

> Good balance is different for different game modes. Yes, some broken builds would remain broken in other builds. But some stuff that is broken in a conquest style game mode would be well balanced, or even on the weak side, in another game mode that didn't rely at all on capturing and holding nodes. Scourge can be oppressive because their shades can cover an entire node, but if you didn't have to worry about capturing/keeping a node from a scourge, then you would be free to maneuver around them as you fight them, and not have to worry about their team gaining points through that entire fight because they held a node.

True!

The reason I wish them to balance for conquest, though, is to show that they're willing to do it to as close as reasonably possible, and arent just violently shaking the meta every few months to see what happens. As it stands now, I wouldn't give a new mode much time on release if there isn't a reasonably consistent look at what makes gameplay weak or strong across the spheres. We certainly have enough specs to handle multiple modes, but the moment you introduce another sphere to keep tabs on you reduce balancing speed significantly.

And right now its glacial.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta

There's a difference between dominant and broken. Spellbreaker is dominant. Holosmith is dominant. Can they be outplayed without resorting to a specific class or weapon set? yes.

> * I get they are frustrating to play against-

There's, again, a difference between frustrating and unfair. Thief is frustrating. Getting hit by a Rock Gazelle out of stealth is frustrating. Being launchlocked by Engie is frustrating.

> * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are. And if they are slow to do that, obviously people will not work well together or lash out as more and more toxic people pour into the currently overperforming specs.

> They are legitimate points. But-

But not required. If there are glaring issues that need to be addressed, and there is a major consensus that includes people that play the class that has those specs, and nothing to resolve the issues occurs, there is very little reason for go "It's just a circlejerk, nobody's making strategies, nobody's working with their team."

Those may all be glaring issues but they will persist as long as the root problem does.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

>we are fighting against annoying bunker gods, playing with noobs (me) who dont know how to rotate, or any number of tiny details that end up costing the game. this mode more then any other seems to me to be built for organized premade teams who know their kitten.

Conquest isn't killing pvp, toxic players enabled by cheese builds and players who don't know what they're doing are.

I'd prefer classes be properly balanced for conquest before attempting new game modes.

New maps would be fine, but I don't think exploring new game modes is a good step right now until they tidy up steeply overperforming builds.

I love how when there's a nerf request on the forums, more often than not it is delivered with shameless hyperbole that implies the poster took absolutely no time to look at how the class functions so they could attempt to identify specific parts of the build that need nerfing, and then people get outraged when Anet apparently ignores them.

Thank goodness that's not happening here.

On a serious note though, most people who do not play mesmer will use "Clone" as a catch all term for "phantasm" and "clone" because they don't know enough about the class to make this distinction. Whether that cheapens their argument or not is up to whoever, idk; but if someone is saying "ten clones" and you know very well you can approach ten illusions at any one point, including those that have been shattered and phantasms resummoning themselves, they have a point, it's just not framed in the correct terms . Visual clutter is a thing.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta

> > > * I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).

> > > * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

> > >

> > > They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.

> > > People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

> >

> > But I'd rather cry about how I ran straight into scourge sewage and died.

>

> I'm sorry I can't hear you because I'm too far away from everyone else. Ooooh a butterf...

You can almost hear the screams...

> @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > Yeh, soulbeast is pretty strong right now. wonder why people are silent about it.

> > >

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > Yeh, soulbeast is pretty strong right now. wonder why people are silent about it.

> > >

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > Yeh, soulbeast is pretty strong right now. wonder why people are silent about it.

> > >

> > > So people should complain about what kills them...and be silent about what they kill easy?

> >

> > If people are actually playing an even mix of the classes, the result would be a correct display of current game balance, would it not?

>

> If every class is being used, yes. The trend on these forums is “nerf everything except the class I play.”

>

> Be it the way moderation is handled, class balance or just the community; I think this forum has generally been pretty bad when it comes to both honesty and objectivity.

Kind of makes you think about why the forum outcries seemingly get ignored. Balance devs probably are /Arenanet probably is treating this like a parent treats a child having a temper tantrum.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Yeh, soulbeast is pretty strong right now. wonder why people are silent about it.

>

> So people should complain about what kills them...and be silent about what they kill easy?

That's what people do anyway, for the most part.

"Nerf Rock, Buff Scissors, Paper is fine" and all that.

Yeh, soulbeast is pretty strong right now. wonder why people are silent about it.

Ranger is still good. You just cant healbot anymore.

> @"Majirah.5089" said:

>We're all biased

It's true. I do think that major forum consensus tends to be right though.

> @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > You really think minor terrain variations are going to throw a game? We're still complaining about unload spam, Scourge dumping condis on us and full counter. The meta is still a little baby. GW2 will die before the meta evolves enough to "spawned on red gg, inferior terrain assets".

>

> If you have played as many games as me you'd understand that terrain plays a huge part in the game. This post is not about balance of classes but about the maps themselves.

Terrain is influential, yes.

So influential that the maps must be standardized symmetrically? No.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> I understand the devs got a lot on their plate.

>

> Would it be possible to put conceptual/upcoming balance changes into a dedicated room/server or queue?

>

> I know you will get alot of feedback and most of it will be less than quality. But there alot of people willing to help you achieve balance quicker and for free.

>

> The area doesn't have to be live, maybe even make a separate login, i don't know.

>

> But even if alot of the feedback was bad, players could quickly find OP skills, bugs, and conflicts before the changes became live.

>

> I am not saying that we demand you make the changes we think are best, but I feel like this would show the community even more that you care for their feedback.

>

> **A few potential benefits of this:**

>

> * Players, perhaps even some bitter about changes, might log in with a sense of purpose to find "flaws"

> * I think it would drag in a few more bodies to discover PVP, people love to criticize.

> * Some of the testing workload will be shifted off of your team and given to the skritt.

> * Reducing the ability of players to say changes were not tested.

>

> Is this a bad idea?

It's a great idea.

Unfortunately-

You really think minor terrain variations are going to throw a game? We're still complaining about unload spam, Scourge dumping condis on us and full counter. The meta is still a little baby. GW2 will die before the meta evolves enough to "spawned on red gg, inferior terrain assets".

> @"Akath.2650" said:

> Guys, you are missing the point. It's not realism or how-to-use it, its the freaking blade that's there and it just not being used. This is a game, stop overthinking!

Read this again and then slowly realize the irony.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > Power Mesmers aren't even that much of a problem. Their burst is easy to avoid as long as you see them before the engagement. Condi is where the real problem likes, or moreso the ease of application. I fought a condi-mirage yesterday. I cleansed the 10 stacks of confusion, 12 stacks of torment, 3 stacks of burning. Within the *same second*, I had another 6 stacks of torment, 8 stacks of confusion and 3 stacks of bleeding...you can only imagine that I barely managed to cleanse those before the same amount was almost *immediately* reapplied. Am I not bringing enough clears? It's seriously not a fun engagement.

> > >

> > > The confusion is not deadly at all as long as you don't cast into it. No joke, I could dump over 30 stacks of confusion on you and so long as you don't attack it'll maybe do 30% of your total health depending on the class. No joke. It was testing it on a friend and who was on deadshot scourge seeing exactly how much damage I could do to him with just confusion stacks and him just eating it, no barrier or anything and that's what over 30 stacks of confusion would do to him.

> > >

> > > Burning is the deadliest thing in condi mirage's arsenal and that comes from the torch skills. If you're going to beat a condi mirage, the key is to understand the rhythm of the torch skills and avoid them. The prestige is a 3 second stealth and has a very obvious animation and sound queue when they go into stealth. Once the stealth is over they'll explode out of stealth for a ton of burning damage. Next is the phantasmal mage which has two pulses of burning. First is around the mesmer themselves when initially cast. I actually kind of really dislike this aspect of the skill and would rather all the burning of the skill get reweighted onto the phantasm. The phantasm has a very obvious wind up before attacking with another wave of fire in a cone and dazing. This wind up is the exact same animation as the unbound mining tool if you've ever seen it. It'll levitate into the air, lift it's hands back and thrust them forward like it's casting a hadoken and when it thrusts it's hands out is when they attack will land.

> > >

> > > I think condi mirage should have some of the burning stacks trimmed from the torch skills. No joke if all three attacks land on you it's 10 stacks of burning for 18k damage so cleanse it, resist it, barrier it or die. Even if they have counter play and can predictably be avoided they're honestly over performing.

> > >

> > > As a condi mirage I'll often deliberately feint with a minor condi shatter to bait cleanses before going in with the torch for the kill.

> > >

> > > But yeah, once Chrono is no longer god tier condi mirage will be a more dominant presence in the metagame.

> >

> > "No joke" 30 stacks of confusion means I can't do *anything* except walk around while the Mirage can continue to apply *more* stacks of confusion and torment and burn to make sure that I continue to not be able to do anything. I can't even *cleanse* without taking damage from the confusion. Can't port away to wait it out, can't stealth, can't even auto attack. All of that is punishing, I am punished for actually trying to play my profession... "No joke" how is that fair again?

>

> If they're running the meta build it's very hit it run and kite dependent. It doesn't actually have that much sustained damage at all. It's constrained by the limitations of it's shatter skills. If they've botched their burst they'll be mostly on the defensive until their shatter skills are up again. They can throw out a lot more chip damage over time compared to say a Greatsword mesmer but if you survive the initial burst where they'll attempt to drop 20-30 confusion on you, the 3-4 stacks they'll maintain on you while they wait for another burst is not all that punishing. There's a lot you can do, you can cleanse it or pop resistance or just avoid getting hit in the first place.

>

> 90% of condi mirages are going to time their entire burst to land right when The Prestige lands, so if you can avoid the Prestige you've made huge head ways into the fight. My advice is just get a guy to play condi mirage and head into a 1v1 hotjoin and just get some good practice in avoiding the skill.

>

> Also Vallun has an excellent video detailing how 1v1ing a condimirage plays out from the perspective of thief. Even if you don't play thief it's still an excellent detail into what the build is capable of.

>

> [

Thanks for the link. I'll look into this.

Oh, it's also oriented the way the OP wants on charr. So, yknow. reroll an anthropomorphized cowc@ if you want your scythe to swing correctly.

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Using the scythe that way makes sense from a practical perspective.

> > Whacking the sharp point of a scythe against anything that isnt 100% flesh will shatter the blade. It would be more effective to sharpen the top end of the scythe's blade and sweep it across your opponent. That way you get lacerations and protect the blade.

> >

> > The same technique applies to swords.

> >

> > (Not that I think this was intended but it's interesting. )

>

> Practical perspective on a game with magic, dragons, undead kings, teleporting and plant people. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah.

"The scythe is magic and is actually sharper when used as a club."

Better?

The orientation of the blade doesn't matter. I was just pointing out that you can use it that way to great effect. It's not wrong/in need of a fix. And since the OP seems to be concerned with a realistic/practical scythe animation...

Idunno. Unbound magic. Whatever.

> @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> That's what i said in the other post. The issue is that there is no alternative than unranked for teams to play, and this is really hard to practice there.

> What's missing is that there is no quickplay, these arenas are all about glory farming. I wish we could play in these arenas like we used to 2 years ago..

Join a 1v1/duel/team practice Arena. Theres a handful of them. duel there until you have a grasp of how your class works in pvp, then you can unranked to learn rotations.

> @"BMW.2951" said:

> I got sick of ANET favoring Necro so I rerolled yesterday to Scourge. My name is Death to PvP and Scourge will be one of the main reasons it is going to die. It's a joke how they think a class is balanced that can spam 9034578234957 conditions on the ground in a POINT gamemode. Literally laughable. My buddy is a support FB and we are almost unkillable.

>

> What is balance?

>

> lol

This.

The real losers here are the people that keep playing non-meta builds in the hopes that it'll get better and that at some point nerfs will happen to the clearly overpowered specs and everything will be sunshine and flowers. By being fodder for the OP, you support it.

If you want to have fun in pvp, roll meta. It'll only cost a bit of your soul, you wont miss it.

All is vain, l2p