Azure The Heartless.3261

While I agree that Scourge was a poor design choice for PVP, in wvw I don't know what to tell you.

They can 1v1 you now.

Range them?

Just move out of the way?

Its not the scourge's fault if you let yourself get mowed over by several slow-moving aoes.

Oh look, someone with a particular wild suggestion that insults anyone that disagrees with him.

Never seen that before.

Any nerf of CC at this point would result in CC being unusable in pvp.

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

>

> > you know what. I want this.

> >

> > I want HS changed to heal actively. But I want healing on skill use with a 1 second ICD instead of on hitting a foe, because ranged characters will disable your heal. And an increased heal reward for skillful play.

> >

> >

>

> i like that too any thing to encourage active game play

_Yes.. good.._

[Laughs in warrior]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> so i see that heal passive 1 second icd is fine BUT healing when hitting a foe 1 second icd is not !

> do warriors need passive that much !

> they wont use an active healing !

> that is pure skill in pvp !

you know what. I want this.

I want HS changed to heal actively. But I want healing on skill use with a 1 second ICD instead of on hitting a foe, because ranged characters will disable your heal. And an increased heal reward for skillful play.

> @"Les.4872" said:

> balance itself is not even that bad atm.

This, but the areas where it is bad could have been easily avoided with a second pass of playtesting, and are insultingly overpowered.

Its like a glass of water with just a little poison in it. Proportionally it isnt that bad but itll still make you wanna die.

**-Coffee Sip-**

**-Inhale-**

_Mesmer has never been sub par._

* [Here is a snapshot of a tier list from 2012. ](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/A-look-at-how-each-class-performs-in-the-psuedo-trinity "https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/A-look-at-how-each-class-performs-in-the-psuedo-trinity")

* [Here is a Tier List from 2013](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Class-Tier-List-Post-December-10th-Patch "")

* [Here's a snapshot from six months prior: ](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List-Updated-6-30 "https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List-Updated-6-30")

* [ Heres one from 2014.]( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Best-PVP-Class-1-January-2014 " https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Best-PVP-Class-1-January-2014")

* [ Here's a "Skill Demand for Damage output" snapshot for 2015. Note where PU Mesmer is](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/So-what-builds-are-considered-hard " ")

* [in 2016 We had Bunker Chronomancer. ](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Fix-Chronomancer-For-The-Sake-Of-Community "https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Fix-Chronomancer-For-The-Sake-Of-Community")

* In 2017 We had the advent of Condi Mirage.

* Now We have Chronomancer again.

Your class has never been victimized or cast out of the meta entirely for the entire life of GW2. They have had periods where they "were not THAT op" but they have never been largely agreed upon as unviable or struggling at any point in Guild Wars 2's history.

*-Coffee sip.-*

Also please be mindful of directly attacking individuals instead of their ideas. All that it will do is detract from the point of all this.

@"Ithilwen.1529" Please point to the "Years Mesmer went acknowledged as trash tier".

A slight tone down to holo sustain.

A slight tone down to spellbreaker sustain, or damage, but not both.

I want to say a tone down to scourge, but Its more a mechanic problem than a damage one.

Mayyyybe a tone down of Firebrand sustain? That's tentative.

other than that everything's pretty ok.

I don't even really care about the other classes right now. I'll settle for mostly balanced across the classes.

Agreed.

The foundation on this class is so heavily skewed against most melee classes that there's no way to actually fix it that would allow Scourge to remain relevant.

It seems to have been done intentionally so Necros have -SOME- use in PVP. Having one broken spec and two underwhelming/unviable specs apparently balances out.

That being said, at least they cannot deal with range pressure. Here's to shaping the meta to counter scourges and then having people complain about ranged spamfests.

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > dont defend the Healing Signet

> >

> > omegalul

>

> ok so you want to get healing while doing nothing

Or you can address the response to your nerf suggestion instead of putting words in my mouth~

I'm open to it being changed! But it'll have to remain viable. :u

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> change it to heal when warrior hit a foe ICD 1 second and this change wont affect him in PVE

So kiting the warrior nullifies their healing on top of already being an effective strategy? (In addition to poison obviously)

Okay, but we will need more damage to punish the people who have to come in to melee us, a healing scaling on the signet so we heal for more when we hit, and a massively reduced block time on shield so people don't just range us down without us being able to heal.

> dont defend the Healing Signet

omegalul

Braham feels like a ticking time bomb, which is a far cry from his relative mildness before Eir's death.

His personality take is grating, but it's definitely interesting. Just waiting for that moment he goes too far.

Arenanet _doesn't have playtesters._

Either that, or they have playtesters that provide data non-casual players would consider inconsequential or as stemming from incompetence.

-#PressFtoEntertainCow

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> On demo weekends and post-PoF launch, both Mirage and FB were at the same spot, the trash bin. Both of them got huge buffs and bug fixes. I mean, with Infinite Horizon, clones were doing almost zero damage. Elusive Mind probably was the only decent thing for Mirages. After a lot of forum cries, it got some stuff, a lot of bugs got fixed etc. Then the infamous post-pof condi mirage was born.

I wish revenants got the same love. Alas~

> @"Astery.7914" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> >

> > Because SotE is pure kitten.

> >

> > There aren't only 3. Roamer Power Chrono is a thing, you forgot that one. And it is incredibly powerful. Much more than it is in PvP to be fair. Cast disenchanter with stability from chaos, use CS mid cast, get out of CS, cast it again, use SotE, cast it again. 6 Disenchanters with Chronophantasma. Good luck to your enemy trying to dodge all of those.

> >

> > SotE and Chronophantasma were the main offenders, and Anet is on the right way at the moment.

>

> Maybe you're joking or speaking about US, because I have played at tier 1-3 EU for half of year and for this time I have seen less than 10 chronospam mesmers.

>

Just because you personally do not see a problem doesn't mean the build is not mechanically overwhelming. Personal ranking does not discredit the assertion that the spec is overpowered, and neither does location. And roamers do exist. Stack food/unregulated sigil access on top of that and you have nightmares for any player that finds himself against a chrono mesmer without backup.

It's probably going to need even more shaving. We'll see how it goes.

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"pah.4931" said:

> > >Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape...

> >

> > Just pointing out that p/p is the least mobile set in thief's kit and that if a thief spams unload his port options are relegated to shadowstep and whatever stealth utility he has on his bar.

> >

> > Which is not -tons-.

> >

>

> It's true. I generally like to see a pp thief on the opposing team.

>

> I think people's problem with them are they are the "win more" profession. When you're having a tough match and you get blown up by a PP thief it just feels bad. But chances are, that other team would have beat you if it was a s/d thief or a warrior or a revenant ;)

Agreed, and I understand that. But this _is_ a thief we are talking about. By nature losses to them that feel insulting, or rigged is a thematic high score for the developers of the class, as long as they aren't imbalanced in doing so.

I just want to make sure people don't see "thematically insulting play" as "unbalanced play", and use that as a foothold to kick the thief out of viability, d'assall~

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> No mesmer main worth listening to ever said the phantasm rework was going to destroy the class. You made that up, and its quite obvious.

Not that I wanna butt in on this, but I just kinda am gonna chime in here and say (No True Scotsman defense notwithstanding) that [he didn't make that up.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26956/upcoming-mesmer-nerf-s#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26956/upcoming-mesmer-nerf-s/p1")

It's true that Mesmers did help identify specifically where the problem was (and we do need that. I don't want this kneejerk reaction balancing to absolutely destroy class cores like it's done in the past, because I have a power shatter mes I wanna learn). But you guys are split too when it comes to balancing.

Agreed that there was significant mesmer feedback about __putting a stunbreak on a dodge__ . I don't know who thought that was a good idea to let through testing.

> @"Arioch.4810" said:

> Thanks for the news Ben!

> IMO this is a great way to touch up on Mesmer: It will change the burst of the average player in a noticeable way, giving options to counterplay. Great players on Mesmers still can ruin your day with chronomancer's F5 fueling a bunch of back to back phantasms.

> Change that will reign in some of the power in the hands of competent but average player while still leaving a chance for great player to dominate, i like that.

>

> Man, in couple short weeks Anet's team handled problems with 3rd party software, did a skill split, now they're touching up on classes..we players will be spoiled in no time!

> Keep up the good work.

Nah hold on don't feed their egos now. Limit one (1) backpat per dev.

While I think that an eye should still be kept on those special few who may have been inadvertently banned during the monitoring, I am also pleased that action was taken regarding individuals who fit the flagging criteria.

Appreciate it~

> @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > @"montecristo.1324" said:

> > Why there isn't a 5v5 gameplay more than only ATs and mATs?

> > I mean it's unfair that a 5v5 game is unplayable in 5 people (or its' playable only 3 times in a day).

> >

> > Now it's like when I go to play basketball I go alone and find people on the road asking them to play with me, while if I want an improvement I need a team!

> >

> > It's not a complaint post, it's more a suggestion post to aNet to find a way to restore a team ladder or a guild ladder like in gw1. Please, it's really important for the game!

> >

> > Also a good way to teach to people to play togheter is to change the current pvp matchmaking and put the old RA system from gw1 where if you win you keep your team and can have a better rewards after a win streak, it's the same concept: incentivate team play.

> >

> > I'm pretty bored of selfish players that thinks only to the ranking and won't collaborate, it is the best game with the best pvp I've played since gw1, please bring back a reason to play this game as a team and I'm sure it will be rewarded in time.

>

> Short answer: Anet is already working on an alternative solution: On demand ATs and improvements to the tournament system. They decided to go with it due to data that we don't have access to. Certainly it won't be ideal but you will need to trust the devs that it is the best possible solution.

> To go with it they could introduce a ladder based on the placement in daily and monthly ATs!

>

> Long answer: In my opinion a solo/duo queue is fair and more competitive, as most play solo anyways and premades would give the few an unfair advantage. And where's the sense of accomplishment when you stomp uncoordinated solo players most of the time? A separate team queue could be the solution. But the devs already stated that based on their data a separate queue for teams couldn't sustain itself. Probably they mean it'd have long queues and end up making unfair matches anyways. It wouldn't be competitive.

> Therefore they are working on an alternative solution: A tournament that you can sign up for at any given time and that will start once enough teams have registered. Furthermore they are working on changing the ATs to swiss style, which means that if you lose the first round you will have a chance to come back from it. That way it ensures that every team will get at least a few games out of a tournament.

Marvelous. Here's hoping this addresses that issue.

> @"montecristo.1324" said:

> never said that I want premades vs pugs. I think that the two things have to co exists.

Nice.

> @"pah.4931" said:

>Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape...

Just pointing out that p/p is the least mobile set in thief's kit and that if a thief spams unload his port options are relegated to shadowstep and whatever stealth utility he has on his bar.

Which is not -tons-.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Trying to see how this actually makes sense in your head is giving me a brain aneurysm.

**Ok.gif**

> Unranked, is also not kitten competitive. Do you honestly think a full 5 man premade, trying to get better to compete in tournaments, will honestly improve after steamrolling a bunch of randoms in unranked who are trying to learn the game?

Which is why there should be team ranked queues that pit premades against premades. I'm not against that idea.

> > Now it's like when I go to play basketball I go alone and find people on the road asking them to play with me, while if I want an improvement I need a team!

> > What about those players that don't want to affix themselves to a team or just want to do street matches?

> Then they can play solo. Nothing is stopping them from doing so.

> See, now use your brain a little bit and see how much trouble you'll get yourself into if you yell at other players and STOP them from playing with their friends on the street.

Ok.gif

Never advocated that they should stop doing so, only that they should be put up against other premades if they chose to do so. You seem to be of the opinion that I want teams to never play in ranked matches at all for some reason, when what I am actually against is ensuring people do not exploit that mechanic to acquire easy wins versus people who don't want to be bothered with that legwork. Those are two entirely different concepts.

> > > I'm pretty bored of selfish players that thinks only to the ranking and won't collaborate, it is the best game with the best pvp I've played since gw1, please bring back a reason to play this game as a team and I'm sure it will be rewarded in time.

> >

> > Unranked allows premades.

> Unranked isn't competitive.

If you're here to play with friends for fun, unranked allows it. If you are here to play with friends to improve as a team/rank as a team, that avenue should be provided more often than the Automatic Tournaments, yes. Premade groups and randomly created groups should not mingle in the same ranked sphere though, because there is the potential for heavy competitive advantage in the premade's favor. Voice comms, knowledge of the builds and strengths/weaknesses of your teammates, and optimal comp formulation can skew matches in the premade's favor-

> Again, if you can understand English, Anet already said that 5 mans didn't stomp solos.

-Even if this is the case. Anet says a lot of things. The fact that a significant amount of teams have not organized themselves enough to make a blip on Arenanet's metrics vs any noncoordinated group does not lend itself to the theory that teams do not have a competitive advantage. Coordinated groups perform better by nature.

> Also, if a group spends a lot of time and effort to get organized, communicate, and improve, they SHOULD win more. That's how it literally works everywhere else in the world.

They also usually get placed against other teams to demonstrate their skills. Tournaments usually have split pools for solo players and teams.

> But hey, Anet supports flawed logic and people with no friends. That's why everyone is having fun and the game's population is booming with a healthy competitive scene. Ecks dee

I don't understand why supporting someone without friends is a bad angle to go for on a MMO, but Ok.gif

> > That being said, you're right. there should be an option to allow teams to fight teams 24/7, in ranked. They should only be able to fight other premades though.

> > If you're just here to play with your friends though, there are still avenues to do that. Take care your desire is not to chew through pug groups with your organized one. The solo players are not less important.

> I hope you realize people who played solo only are also advocating for team que.

> **I PLAYED NEARLY ALL OF MY GAMES SOLO** even when team que was a thing. However, I was much more satisfied losing to a 5 man and having the potential to form my own than I am currently.

Ok.gif. I am not advocating the current system is flawless, or that teammates should not be allowed to team queue. I am merely pointing out the following.

* If your goal is to specifically play with friends, you can still do that.

* There are some individuals who want to premake in ranked so that they have a general competitive edge.

* If you want to play ranked in premades, that option should be made available. It should only be vs other groups who have had the opportunity to prepare as you did, though.

_Sorry if my English comprehension isn't up to snuff~_

> @"montecristo.1324" said:

> Why there isn't a 5v5 gameplay more than only ATs and mATs?

Unranked allows premades.

> I mean it's unfair that a 5v5 game is unplayable in 5 people (or its' playable only 3 times in a day).

See above.

> Now it's like when I go to play basketball I go alone and find people on the road asking them to play with me, while if I want an improvement I need a team!

What about those players that don't want to affix themselves to a team or just want to do street matches?

> I'm pretty bored of selfish players that thinks only to the ranking and won't collaborate, it is the best game with the best pvp I've played since gw1, please bring back a reason to play this game as a team and I'm sure it will be rewarded in time.

Unranked allows premades.

That being said, you're right. there should be an option to allow teams to fight teams 24/7, in ranked. They should only be able to fight other premades though.

If you're just here to play with your friends though, there are still avenues to do that. Take care your desire is not to chew through pug groups with your organized one. The solo players are not less important.

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> >

> > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> >

> > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

>

> Thanks for talking to us, Ben! Really appreciated.

This X a thousand.

A lot of us get pretty heated but we always appreciate feedback, plans of action and commentary when it comes to spvp.

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

only __if they run bound daredevil__

But at that point they are significantly nerfing their damage because they cannot slot deadeye.

Agreed on the rest though. If you know you don't have high mobility and you refuse to bring projectile hate and spec as glassy as possible, P/P is your counter. It's also your counter if you feel you should be able to 1v2 for extended periods of time.