ZDragon.3046

I dont know the wall does have some benefits that a aoe shout fear would not have.

The biggest one being you cant dodge through it without stability. Its one of the few skills that stops what alot of other skill would normally i frame through.

I feel like the best thing it could be turned into is just a circle aoe ground target that way they have the options to stay in it and not get feared, walk out and get feared, soak the fear by resistance or stab to walk in and out.

It retains its wall functionality simply changing its shape would make it alot more viable It does not need to be much bigger than say any common well skill etc.

Change the name from "Spectral Wall" to "Haunted Ground" >_>

> @"Scar.1793" said:

> OP all classes in this game are braindead to appeal to a larger audience. Similar how WoW gutted tons of skills and depths from its classes.

ill be honest not everyone likes to play a game thats dependent on having 30+ skills on your hud at any given time for every single absolute situation. I for one am not a fan of any a mmo that does such a thing.

To base every profession to be braindead on that factor reveals a very niche/close minded person or some one who only prefers old school mmos which this is not mind you.

I use to consider warrior one of my hardest professions to play because ive played necro for so long and the two don exactly play the same i struggle to play warrior properly but its growing on me. When i first started warrior made me more frustrated than any other profession cause it fatigued me mentally. Considering the opposite of what most people claim learning the basics of warrior (which im still doing) has been the hardest for me.

I wouldn't say i feel like a scrub for playing professions that might have nicer skills or traits than others.

I main necro but i never felt like it was easy to the point i felt bad playing it. Its simple to play but that does not make something easy to master. In truth all professions can be easy to play depending on how you build them.

I will say that some professions have gimmicks or traits or skills that can make me feel spoiled (Extra dodges, invuln, blocks, escapes, tons of great break stuns, lots of hard with quicker cast times etc.) Things im not using to having on necromancer. If anything if i play something that has such things i dont feel scruby just a bit spoiled it quickly rolls off when i go back to necro and realize i dont have a way to move large distance gaps consistently, or invulns,... more than 2 dodge rolls.

I try not to mix pvp into the equation but yes if i go on mesmer in pvp (even thought i have almost no idea how to 1 shot completely or the most effective way to play it. #playingpwoerchrono looool) I often feel like i have several chances recover when mistakes are made as opposed to necromancer. but this is only my personal exp and 1 example.

Like i said i feel spoiled not scrubby. If you play something that has good tools and go to something that has lesser tools but is generally easier to play it could come off that way though i guess. :astonished:

Generally speaking why are you getting hit with 10 stacks of crystal I play reaper and i generally never go above 5 stacks at anytime and Im the one taking all the attention no minions to possibly block hits or distract other mobs for me etc.

You really have to you know dodge to remove it and and avoid things that build it up.

> @"Timarius.2895" said:

> We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

>

>

>

> Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

>

> 1,210 (3.0)?

> Number of Targets: 5

> Shroud Recharge Reduced on Critical Hit: 2s

> Life Force Gain on Critical Hit: 15%

> Combo Finisher: Whirl

> Range: 170

>

> Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

>

> EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

This is too situational to realistically i dont see the use of having shroud recharge reduced with this skill its realistically not something we need.

We currently have 2 ways of cutting shroud skill cd via trats ideally its realistically not needed for pve

If you are talking shroud entry no one will like this for pvp not only do you need to land a slow skill to get it it also needs to crit for a minimal 2s cd of shroud entry.

Why not just make it so necro can perform their own rotations without spamming the skill. Reward for landing the skill at all times not just below 50% Literally just remove the cd reset from Grave Digger it and give the Necro a new effect on hit which allows them to continue the rotation as they see fit.

New effect "Lethality" has been added to the game

Triggers upon successful hit of grave digger

Above 50% Lethality (6s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 5%

Below 50% - 15% Lethality (12s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 15%

Cd reset under 50% has been removed.

Side note.... grave digger actually has nice sound effects if you have a good sound system to enjoy it ;) Its just less enjoyable when spammed every other second.

> @"Kuulpb.5412" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > Honestly i think you are being too drastic in comparison to other professions. You are matching traits to skills and skills to traits and thats never a good way to look at it. If you do that you will always name some of the worst things no one uses on necro and name some of the better tools of other professions.

> > > >

> > > > First off the one thing you did right was compare necro to only other scholar professions. At base it is a caster type and thus its tools should be some what similar or less of the other types. My reasoning for saying "lesser" comes down to the fact that shroud at a core perspective protects your hp and the other professions at base do not have this option. Instead they have boon spam and invulns or stealth.

> > > >

> > > > Honestly about the only thing you can hope they do is buff death magic its traits have potential and its minors can easily be replaced by just about any mechanic you can think off and they be better than they are now.

> > > >

> > > > I think anet has to be very careful about how they buff necro sustain because then it means currently necro can opt for building in a way that it does not require precision or toughness while still having high crit chance, crit damage, and being tanky as hell without the proper investment. Although if anet never plans to give necro hard defenses then this is not a bad way to offset that choice. Right now its kind of like they dont know which they want to do.

> > >

> > > It's not the fact "no-one uses it" it's "they have access to it, so can use it if they have to", necros cannot do this even if they wanted, and now thanks to the most recent patch they have even less mobility.

> >

> > Necromancer is a very tricky thing to handle because necro is naturally tanky by the way of its mechanics and design. It simply cant just be given more survivability without considering the effects that will drip down the lines through the elite specs.

> >

> > The recent patch done nothing to change mobility in a negative way lol. Im not sure where you are getting that idea from cause no movement skills got their cooldowns changed.

> >

> > Honestly I prefer the high damage high kill potential meta we have right now over the boon tank/support 1v3 me metas we use to have that are slowly being phased out. I would rather see death magic reworked in a way that it can provide better tools and mechanics to moderately improve sustain but not in such a drastic way that it causes everyone to feel like they HAVE TO USE it. The last thing we need is a necormancer that has high sustain, high damage, without having to invest in offensive stats and minimal defensive stats. That will lead to the biggest cry in the community that will take us 3 steps forward and 7 steps back some months later.

> "Quickening Thirst " is a movement speed trait, 25% while above 75% health, Meaning in combat unless you are constantly above 75% you are stuck in fights whereas before you had 25% with dagger at all times. it's less combat mobility, paired with low stability and only Two dodges mean if someone can move 25% speed, or apply swiftness they can outrun you, if they hit you, they can outrun you.

>

> Edit: Necromancer does not have high damage, It has average to high tankiness depending on how much you are CCd, but the Damage is VERY sub par

>

So let me ask you this...

With the previous trait what happens when you swap weapons or activate shroud (which is a weapon swap) did you still complain about the loss of speed under those conditions?

If Yes then its the same thing now the condition is just different

If No then ideal this is the same thing different stipulation. Honestly you are being so nit picky on this note thats not a real loss of mobility lol.

Why dont you have swiftness?

Locust signet?

Speed of shadows?

Runes that provide perma speed boost?

Swiftness from party members?

Did you even realistically run the dagger trait? specifically for movespeed? Even so if its average to high in tankyness why are you asking for improved sustain.... why cant you keep your hp above the 75% easily?

There are some really conflicted things here. Just saying...

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > >

> > > That doesn't change my opinion that the "buffs" are misplaced. Buffing unnecessarily things and leaving other things that need buff in the drought will never make things better, in fact it can even end up making these things toxic. The way ANet balance is incredibly aweful and this patch as a whole is a perfect example of that. We've been introduced to a "new" system team and we end up with the same old toxic balance, what good can we expect from this? More crappy balance patchs that don't answer properly the issues?

> > >

> > > Spinal shiver didn't need these 50% increased damage, life transfer didn't need either it's 70% increased damage, tainted shackle increased condi duration and damage... Pointless changes that can lead these skills to be toxic. Seriously, most of the necromancer's skills that are underused aren't underused because they lack damage or condition duration but because they are aweful to use, piling up effect and damage on them only lead to them being toxic for the game as a whole. Seriously, what's the next step? Making spinal shiver corrupt boon so that it's more in line with the necromancer way to deal with boons? I'm sure everyone would react like: "yeah, that's a logical change, it's fine!" ANet avoid the real problems and make things toxic, it's to the point that it creep me to no end.

> >

> > I dont completely agree with this

> > Its not that the skills are awful to use because of how they mechanically work. The skill felt unrewarding to use. Shroud skills having super high cast times and super long cool downs and while dealing sub-par damage. You can ideally make the right reads and the right plays and not properly be rewarded for skills that have super obvious tells because they are so slow or have very long cool downs that you can only use once in a fight. Its simply not fun when you are not rewarded for making good reads and great plays. The easiest way to fix this is before doing a mechanical change is to increase the potential reward for landing the skills as they currently are aka increasing the damage/ conditions or making them easier to use with a speed increase.

> >

> > You mention "Toxic" as if that any buff necormancer gets will make it more instantly broken on mirage mechanic levels. This is simply not the case and it likely never will be the case. You really should not throw out such a word so carelessly as it often invites people to start calling things by that when they realistically are not. Do not invite negativity because the changes are not what you see fit. Instead you should be providing critical feed back on what you think should have been changed, in what way, and why. I dont agree with every change myself but I'll take a bone here or there if it means that its a chance to push things to a better place.

> >

> > Now the part I do agree with is that some buffs are often misplaced on necromancer spinal shivers on focus did not realistically need a buff although its not that major and nothing about the buff to it will make it in your words "toxic". Ideally we should take any weapon buffs or changes that are not on axe only with a grain of salt. Anet is trying new things give them some time.

> >

> >

>

> I gave them 6 years...

>

> No seriously, how is it not toxic to add boon corruption everywhere? How is it not toxic to pile up 4-6 effects on single skills? Toxic don't necessarily mean very effective, toxic mean that to much of the same thing become a poison for the profession. Like taking a high amount of medecine can kill someone.

>

> The necromancer (core) before HoT had a balanced amount of boon corruption and boon rip, now boon corruption have become the cheap thing that you find everywhere on the necromancer and I say it: It have become toxic!

Ok first here a few key points to look at. (A balanced amount of boon corruption and boon rip.) Do you know why that was?

Because its not..... ideally boon corrupt is a direct response to adding boon spam everywhere so perhaps thats the problem not the necros boon corrupt. There was a point (Pre HoT) where it was actually difficult to keep a large number of boons on yourself at one time for a long period of time or keep might at high intensity. Necro is currently acting as the solution to all the boon spam in the game. The more boon spam we have the more corrupts we need to combat it. Its also why necro is such a big threat in team fights because every other profession is so drowned and dependent on boons and the only profession that punishes having boons in great deal is necromancer. Fix the boon spam and all the boon corrupt wont be needed as a result. If you want to be upset on this topic look too boon spam not to boon corrupts. I would love for anet to cull boons across the board and would be fine if the reduced corrupts as a result. How ever do not call the necromancer toxic because of this.

>

> Spinal shiver had a decent burst of damage before the last patch, increasing it by 50% is toxic maybe not for other profession but at least from a necromancer point of view. As it is, skills like spinal shiver that have long cast time for either stupid amount of effect or stupid amount of damage based on how many boon the foe have are skills that have absolutely no value in PvE and bothersome to use in PvP/WvW. People complain that the necromancer is no brain and such skills that pile up effects contribute a lot to that, not because they don't require skill to use but because the issue is not the reward but the fact that they are bothersome to use and thus aren't used! The fact that the reward are pretty much always the same (godd**n boon hate) don't make the skill really attractive neither nor does it make it require a lot of brain matter to use it.

Actually no i dont agree to be perfectly honest with you (and this is just my personal experience im not saying that its not he case for you) Lesser spinal shivers 80% of the time dealt considerably more damage consistently under the same situations than the active skill (I DONT KNOW WHY) but in most cases using the active skill on a foe who has 3 boons would cirt about 2-3k while the lesser would often crit for up to 7k consistently. Every once in a while the active skill for me would hit above 4k.

I dont agree that it was (decent burst damage) I do agree that it was decent damage but it was a far cry from "Burst" damage. Even so the increase is not going to make it "Toxic" I wish you would stop using that word its overly dramatic and makes you sound a lot less serious than i usually take you for.

Its not till the end of this second statement that you say something that makes some sense. The skills being rewarding when used as boon hate. To which i reply with my above statement. (Boons need to be culled across the game.) Once that happens necro can start to lose some boon hate and have skills focused on boon hate improved in other ways.

Not every skill needs to be hard and over complicated to use so that it can be rewarding. I dont know why people think this way some skills are made to be simplistic some professions as a whole are made to be this way. ACCEPT IT! I personally favor necros ease of play I don't often enjoy playing other professions for long periods of time as i do with my necro because its focus draining. I don't come home from work focus drained to wear my brain out playing something which should be entertainment and relaxing.

That said Necromancer does require some skill to play, even more so in player vs player environments anyone who thinks other wise is dead wrong out right and simple. Sure your skills are easy to use and you can stack chill into bleed and vuln on hit. But can you catch a foe who kites you, can you handle hard cc users, do you know how to manage your very limited mobility and dodging potential. Can you manage your shroud cooldown properly. Do you know how to handle ranged attackers. Do not sit here and say that necormancer is toxic now and requires no skill when it has so many flaws it makes the other professions look like perfection.

>

> I'm not saying that the way boons are as cheap for other professions as boon hate is cheap for the necromancer isn't also toxic. I'm saying that I'd rather see the necromancer move in a different direction than the same bad direction they've been moving for already way to long. Devs need to stop always banging their head on the same iron plate and developpe the necromancer in a different direction. Boon hate and stupid damage increase aren't going to fix the core of the issue of the necromancer, in fact it won't even begin to help fixing these issues.

If thats the case then then couldn't you start pointing to said issues or what you see are the issues.

Its pretty clear cut that necro is currently acting as the solution to the plethora of boons entering the game right now look at scepter and how its changed, Axe 3, dagger 3, spiteful spirit trait... HELL scourge it self and all its existence. All good examples of things that literally only are fitting for boon hate. BUT YOU HAVE TO VOICE IT in the right way. No one is going to understand "Its toxic"

Secondly damage boost are not bad for the current way the game is developing. Damage boost is healthy in the right areas. Damage boost has ideally nothing to do with what im picking up is your biggest issue (the boon hate bandaid that necro has become) Your issue keeps pointing back to boon hate and how its not effective in pve.

>

> You can see this as a weapon buff, I see this as a waste of their time that will only benefit a single gimmicky build that didn't need help from the very beginning.

Look you are clearly passionate about necro and im with you. I would much rather have other mechanics than act as boon hate bot too. ;)

So why not talk about why either why we cant stupid crazy levels of boon spam in pve or why we can drop boon hate for boon spam like every other profession (necro is the most limited profession when it comes to generating its own wide range of boons consistently)

Or why boons cant be culled down across the game in general removing the need for as many corrupts.

> @"felincyriac.5981" said:

> I hear guard focus also had a similar skill, it was reworked.

Yeah except that skill tracked you to no end, actually hit its targets, bounced, done ok ish damage, and applied blind, Be it it was alot slower moving. It was actually ok as it was and did not realistically need a rework because it actually worked as skill regardless if people liked it or not it WORKED!

Where as people really love the idea of necro focus 4 but it wont hit a darn thing above 500 units in range and even then its questionable. You have to literally be standing on pve mob for it to hit or in pvp you have to likely eat some punishing damage to be less than 500 units for it to hit.

Fix 1

It shouldn't be a ground coded projectile these are bad in this game (CULL THEM) they can only go down in path tracking not up. Forget trying to hit anything that moves up on a slight bump in the landscape.

Fix 2

Code the skill to actually track more than 600 units. Like a few other skills (necro staff auto) it attempts to guess where you foe is going to be based on their movement on or slightly after cast rather than fully tracking to them meaning any sudden change in movement is an automatic miss even for a moderately fast projectile it wont hit. PLEASE take mesmer's mirror blade code and copy paste it onto this skill.

GG >:C WHATS SO HARD ABOUT THIS.

> @"Baregon Iam.2716" said:

> I see all kinds of guides on lvl 80 necros but there are so many variables. Is there a basic leveling guide that can tell me, as I get points or upgrades available where to distribute what, in what order. I am currently lvl 30 and not sure what I should have or be going for next. Also may need to reset what I have. I like a play style of healing others, so minions doing the work and me keeping them and myself healed would be ideal. Only interested in PVE atm. Any help would be GREAT!

>

> Not to mention this is the first open world environment with no certain quest line to speak of so I'm running all over the place to find the next set of mobs to kill. A bit confuzzled but I want to stick with it...

This is the perfect time for you to explore with new skills and try new things you have not used before to figure out what you like to be honest. So long as your gear is matching to your level you should do ok. Just keep in mind your main stats condition damage vs power damage

Condition weapons include

Scepter / offhand dagger with staff for some condition and utility

Power weapons include

Main hand axe , Main hand dagger, offhand focus

Warhorn is offhand option for any build as it provides great utility

I only say this because you dont want to have power stats and be swinging a scepter around and wonder why it takes so long to kill things or the opposite having high condition damage but using a weapon that applies no conditions.

If you want to try condition damage i suggest using the curses traitline with any other of your chosing this is the main one you will need for condition damage.

If you want to try for power damage run spite with soul reaping and any 3rd traitline of your choice when you unlock it blood magic for more support and healing or death magic if you would like to try the minion master set up on your way to lvl 80

You can also run a hybrid of the two stats with core necor and get good results

In this case use both spite and curses with any other traitline of your choice :)

Your f1 (Death shroud) is often a mix of power and condition skills so if regardless of which you choose stat wise you should always dip into this every now and again to to make the most of what you have open to you.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

>

> That doesn't change my opinion that the "buffs" are misplaced. Buffing unnecessarily things and leaving other things that need buff in the drought will never make things better, in fact it can even end up making these things toxic. The way ANet balance is incredibly aweful and this patch as a whole is a perfect example of that. We've been introduced to a "new" system team and we end up with the same old toxic balance, what good can we expect from this? More crappy balance patchs that don't answer properly the issues?

>

> Spinal shiver didn't need these 50% increased damage, life transfer didn't need either it's 70% increased damage, tainted shackle increased condi duration and damage... Pointless changes that can lead these skills to be toxic. Seriously, most of the necromancer's skills that are underused aren't underused because they lack damage or condition duration but because they are aweful to use, piling up effect and damage on them only lead to them being toxic for the game as a whole. Seriously, what's the next step? Making spinal shiver corrupt boon so that it's more in line with the necromancer way to deal with boons? I'm sure everyone would react like: "yeah, that's a logical change, it's fine!" ANet avoid the real problems and make things toxic, it's to the point that it creep me to no end.

I dont completely agree with this

Its not that the skills are awful to use because of how they mechanically work. The skill felt unrewarding to use. Shroud skills having super high cast times and super long cool downs and while dealing sub-par damage. You can ideally make the right reads and the right plays and not properly be rewarded for skills that have super obvious tells because they are so slow or have very long cool downs that you can only use once in a fight. Its simply not fun when you are not rewarded for making good reads and great plays. The easiest way to fix this is before doing a mechanical change is to increase the potential reward for landing the skills as they currently are aka increasing the damage/ conditions or making them easier to use with a speed increase.

You mention "Toxic" as if that any buff necormancer gets will make it more instantly broken on mirage mechanic levels. This is simply not the case and it likely never will be the case. You really should not throw out such a word so carelessly as it often invites people to start calling things by that when they realistically are not. Do not invite negativity because the changes are not what you see fit. Instead you should be providing critical feed back on what you think should have been changed, in what way, and why. I dont agree with every change myself but I'll take a bone here or there if it means that its a chance to push things to a better place.

Now the part I do agree with is that some buffs are often misplaced on necromancer spinal shivers on focus did not realistically need a buff although its not that major and nothing about the buff to it will make it in your words "toxic". Ideally we should take any weapon buffs or changes that are not on axe only with a grain of salt. Anet is trying new things give them some time.

> @"killfil.3472" said:

> Am I dreaming!?

Its a good start but....its not enough realistically

Life blast needed a major damage increase in addition to its after cast fix

Why do we not have skill combos in shroud yet

Shroud skills doing more damage to some one under the effects of DS 5 etc

Doom got no change still single target still no ammo charges still very weak unless your foe is in your face even then.....

> @"Kuulpb.5412" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Honestly i think you are being too drastic in comparison to other professions. You are matching traits to skills and skills to traits and thats never a good way to look at it. If you do that you will always name some of the worst things no one uses on necro and name some of the better tools of other professions.

> >

> > First off the one thing you did right was compare necro to only other scholar professions. At base it is a caster type and thus its tools should be some what similar or less of the other types. My reasoning for saying "lesser" comes down to the fact that shroud at a core perspective protects your hp and the other professions at base do not have this option. Instead they have boon spam and invulns or stealth.

> >

> > Honestly about the only thing you can hope they do is buff death magic its traits have potential and its minors can easily be replaced by just about any mechanic you can think off and they be better than they are now.

> >

> > I think anet has to be very careful about how they buff necro sustain because then it means currently necro can opt for building in a way that it does not require precision or toughness while still having high crit chance, crit damage, and being tanky as hell without the proper investment. Although if anet never plans to give necro hard defenses then this is not a bad way to offset that choice. Right now its kind of like they dont know which they want to do.

>

> It's not the fact "no-one uses it" it's "they have access to it, so can use it if they have to", necros cannot do this even if they wanted, and now thanks to the most recent patch they have even less mobility.

Necromancer is a very tricky thing to handle because necro is naturally tanky by the way of its mechanics and design. It simply cant just be given more survivability without considering the effects that will drip down the lines through the elite specs.

The recent patch done nothing to change mobility in a negative way lol. Im not sure where you are getting that idea from cause no movement skills got their cooldowns changed.

Honestly I prefer the high damage high kill potential meta we have right now over the boon tank/support 1v3 me metas we use to have that are slowly being phased out. I would rather see death magic reworked in a way that it can provide better tools and mechanics to moderately improve sustain but not in such a drastic way that it causes everyone to feel like they HAVE TO USE it. The last thing we need is a necormancer that has high sustain, high damage, without having to invest in offensive stats and minimal defensive stats. That will lead to the biggest cry in the community that will take us 3 steps forward and 7 steps back some months later.

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> For myself, I would like a few changes:

> 1. Increase the radius - It is small for trying to res multiple bodies and that takes extra targeting time.

> 2. PvE cast time should be halved. By the time SoU goes off, downed players are normally back on their feet.

> 3. Change it to also res dead players, even if only in open world PvE and not instanced, to make it really worth taking versus just using Blood Magic's traits.

I would be down for these changes in pve

Why not ask for reapers "shroud knight" to get that instead as a base thing **shrugs**

Logical for a melee shroud to have a shorter cd than core right?

Foot in the grave could really use other mechanics.

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > Sadly poison isn't really a condition that the necromancer rely on. On the necromancer this rune is basicaly 45% poison duration wasted.

> > > > > Give the necromancer an e-spec that easily build up poison stacks to the point that it can primarily rely on this condition for it's dps and this rune will see some use but right now, it's mainly a subpar choice for a necromancer.

> > > >

> > > > I would be behind this

> > > > It is really odd that we dont have a way to stack the poison condition with even moderate intensity let alone keep it applied under pressure.

> > >

> > > I think that's intended. No class can really stack poison that good.

> > > But that might be due to how poison works. It lowers healing, but for doing this, only one stack of poison is needed

> >

> > Rangers can stack it pretty high. Some Thief and Engineer builds, too, though not as well as Ranger.

>

> Rangers might be able to stack it higher(I'm actually a bit doubtful on that), but if based solely on Poison DPS, Thief wins because of Potent Poison.

Yeah im pretty sure thief can do it for high stacks at longer durations while ranger is more of slightly higher stacks but the durations are shorter the damage will jump up and down over time while thief is kind of consistently high.

Honestly i think you are being too drastic in comparison to other professions. You are matching traits to skills and skills to traits and thats never a good way to look at it. If you do that you will always name some of the worst things no one uses on necro and name some of the better tools of other professions.

First off the one thing you did right was compare necro to only other scholar professions. At base it is a caster type and thus its tools should be some what similar or less of the other types. My reasoning for saying "lesser" comes down to the fact that shroud at a core perspective protects your hp and the other professions at base do not have this option. Instead they have boon spam and invulns or stealth.

Honestly about the only thing you can hope they do is buff death magic its traits have potential and its minors can easily be replaced by just about any mechanic you can think off and they be better than they are now.

I think anet has to be very careful about how they buff necro sustain because then it means currently necro can opt for building in a way that it does not require precision or toughness while still having high crit chance, crit damage, and being tanky as hell without the proper investment. Although if anet never plans to give necro hard defenses then this is not a bad way to offset that choice. Right now its kind of like they dont know which they want to do.

It will likely be changes to the things people complained about over the past month so DE changes Reaper RO change in pvp only the rest will be small bones or changes that wont really mess with anything.

Thats what im willing to bet.

My thoughts are that un traited its the worst utility in rez'ing even more so with its extremely long cast time.

How ever while traited this signet can be one of the best rez abilities considering the fact that it can be cooled down faster than any other rez utility in the game. Which can be useful if you have people or groups going down realistically more than they really should. If you are playing a signet build expect to spend moderate amount of time in shroud as thats how its currently designed to be played.

Ideally its good for power builds at the loss of some late game damage. Bad for condition builds unless you can make the most of something like dhuumfire maybe best on a hybrid build likely on reaper.

The passive is good for giving you more effective shroud health over time and extending your potential time in shroud if you build is based around dealing most of your damage or being most effective in shroud rather than out of it. The active is only good when traited.

In my opinion this is not the signet that needs to change in mechanics it might need a few number tweeks on passive lf gen and activation time. Plague signet needs a new (improved passive effect from the trait) Signet of spite need a rework on its active considering its passive improves power along with a major cut to its cooldown (perhaps dealing a burst damage strike that does increased damage for each condition on your target) Even signet of the locust could use some improvements here and there that would make it better.

Ideally though you cannot make any use of signet of undeath by itself. You need to commit to a full signet build and use the trait signets of suffering in order to make it respectably decent and under stand how to play signet builds which revolve around sitting in shroud longer than what most people are likely use to.

People need to **stop worrying about undeaths cooldown** it ideally does not matter what the cooldown is if you commit and use signet of suffering the recharge will always be cut pretty hard when played right. Scourge cant make the most of this however due to its shroud being a fixed period of time with long gap activations between.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Sadly poison isn't really a condition that the necromancer rely on. On the necromancer this rune is basicaly 45% poison duration wasted.

> Give the necromancer an e-spec that easily build up poison stacks to the point that it can primarily rely on this condition for it's dps and this rune will see some use but right now, it's mainly a subpar choice for a necromancer.

I would be behind this

It is really odd that we dont have a way to stack the poison condition with even moderate intensity let alone keep it applied under pressure.

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > We have a reveal actually its on core necro death shroud skill 5 (See [Tainted Shackles](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles "Tainted Shackles")) and yes if you use it with a invisible target near you it will reveal them.

> > > > A reflect no we dont really... we have projectile block options and at best thats all it needs to be.

> > >

> > > i would acceppt your Point to reveal if core necro would have just 1 viable build in any gamemode^^. andatm neither reaper nor scourge is able to fight against a perma invis target. but just like i said. i think the amount of invis in game is huge atm, and guildwars imo Need more reveal on all classes. Maybe you think the balance between invis and reveal is okay atm, i would also be fine with your oppinion than even if i have a different one.

> >

> > Ill write out some things here that maybe you have not considered

> >

> > Keep in mind that most targets that cannot do perma invis is usually limited to thief only. Thief is a counter profession to necromancer of every kind its going to be an uphill battle no matter what you use. The amount of invis is actually not that bad boons in general are much worst and a much bigger problem for the game right now.

> >

> > **Mesmers** usually dont stay invis long enough for you to really want a reveal to fight them in the first place. At some point they are going to attack you and a reveal wont stop them from doing so.

> > **Scrappers** stealth can be countered by killing the gyro / Base engi stealth does not last that long enough or is generous enough to require a reveal to fight it

> > **Ranger** is the one exception on this list as it does have access to more stealth than they realistically needs but a nerf to smoke scale combo field can shut that down at any time without having to simply add more reveals. I honestly dont know what the smoke scale feild is allowed to be a combo finisher its kind a broken but ranger is stupid strong right now in general.

> > **Warriors, Guardians, Necros, Rev, Ele** cant stealth

> >

> > No one ever mentioned viability i simply pointed out the fact that i is there and I have used it to kill perm stealth builds before. No its not going to work on its own you still have to make good reads to get the win but generally its there for use. But because you want to argue the point of viability lets look at some other reveal skills in terms of their viability in current builds

> > Even if we look at professions that heave reveal skills lets question how many of them realistically run those skills in most common current builds.

> >

> > Ranger

> > - Sick em (Generally not carried even high burst soul beast dont always use this can be viable but its not something everyone opts to run)

> >

> > Warrior

> > - On my Mark (Generally not used its not really viable in current builds just as you pointed out for the necro skill)

> > - Sight beyond Sight (generally not viable because its not used in current builds)

> > - Magebane Tether is viable but generally used for might spam sustain in combination with Might makes Right... It just also happens to reveal, this is the most viable reveal in the game right now.

> >

> > Guardian /Dragon hunter only

> > - Light's Judgment Trap (questionable viability generally not used)

> > - Spear of Justice (cant do anything if your target is already invis its not really viable its just a perk you get for using Dragon hunter its more of a bonus than anything)

> >

> > Engi

> > - Analyze (Questionably not viable in current builds and cant do anything if your target is already in stealth)

> > - Detection pulse ( scrapper only this is viable when running scrapper but you dont se it that often it can be avoided its not the best thing ever.)

> >

> > Rev's

> > - Gaze of Darkness (This is viable for people who run herald but its range is fairly small more often than not if your target is hiding already you wont reveal them unless they are hugging you)

> > Necro

> > - Tainted Shackles (You said was not viable and seems to be in line with alot of other reveal skills in terms of their viability)

> >

> > Now that we have a list of the reveals in the game and can fairly say that the majority of them are not in your own words "Viable" to current builds. Generally fighting perma stealth is never a good idea. Perma stealth generally cant 1 shot you these days (a mesmer can but thats not perma stealth) a thief certainly can burst you quickly but you do need quick reaction time to avoid insta down in most cases its preventable giving you a chance to counter. More importantly how can you reveal a target if you cant see them most reveal skills require you to hit or be able to see your target at some brief period of time to mark them. When you consider this the core necro tether is one of the best reveal skills in the game considering that you can cast it without a target and have a good chance to hit them. Even magebane requires a a burt hit con firm to reveal.

> >

> > A better message to be writing to the devs would be trying to make core more realistically viable not trying to add more reveals and reflects to other part of necro.

> > Im not trying to bash but i felt this needed to be explained in a bit more depth.

> >

> i dont know what experience you made. but my experience is that good DE stay on 1500 range and since they have obviously more mobility i really never came in range to reveal them. the only one time i could pressure such a DE was when i used my warrior and used on my mark because of the range of that skill. i think there is no way to hit a DE with a reveal skill that just hit the area around you. sure, inside of objects your Chance is greater. Maybe id deepend on playstyle but the Scenario in my mind is everytime the DE try to hit you on 1500 range, and while the projectile is flying DE already dodge back to get invis. he does that the whole fight. so you see him Maybe 1/2 sec - 1 sec until he disappeared again. how you want to use that reveal on core than? you Need to move 900 range to his Position until your DS5 is in range. fastest way to do that is flesh worm port but this port Need 1 1/2 sec for cast. you dont know when he get visible. he decides that and there is no pressure for him to leave at a specific Moment.

>

> atm my experience show me best skill is spectral grasp to counter that. but it barely hit him cause this skill projectiles fly too slow. only bad DE with slow reactions/skillrotation get hit by it. i simply dont see a realistic counterplay.

Its ideally a guessing game to be honest. There are moments to make counterplays but they are thin and small in number even more so for necro over almost any other profession because necro has super soft defensive skills and not hard active ones like reflects/invulns/ blocks etc.

As i said its an uphill fight regardless of which spec you use. Warriors do most certainly have the option to counter them but ideally if you keep letting the DE get 1500 range each time he attacks form stealth then just dont fight him let them come to you instead. if the only attack at the very edge of 1500 range then you can take a few steps and avoid the damage by simply being out of range. (Honestly this is not realistic) most of the time they are roughly 900-1200 ish range or lower. I wont say its not a pain to fight them and that it cant feel impossible at times but generally having an extra reveal is likely not going to help you in the situation you described. The odds of necro getting a reveal that hits at 1200 range is about as likely as them getting stealth.

I personally dont fight perma stealth that often but clearly you do. You might need to explore more options to fighting against it or even ask them after the fact that they killed you how does some one fight their build. Generally most people in the game are not total butts and will tell you tips if you ask.

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > We have a reveal actually its on core necro death shroud skill 5 (See [Tainted Shackles](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles "Tainted Shackles")) and yes if you use it with a invisible target near you it will reveal them.

> > A reflect no we dont really... we have projectile block options and at best thats all it needs to be.

>

> i would acceppt your Point to reveal if core necro would have just 1 viable build in any gamemode^^. andatm neither reaper nor scourge is able to fight against a perma invis target. but just like i said. i think the amount of invis in game is huge atm, and guildwars imo Need more reveal on all classes. Maybe you think the balance between invis and reveal is okay atm, i would also be fine with your oppinion than even if i have a different one.

Ill write out some things here that maybe you have not considered

Keep in mind that most targets that cannot do perma invis is usually limited to thief only. Thief is a counter profession to necromancer of every kind its going to be an uphill battle no matter what you use. The amount of invis is actually not that bad boons in general are much worst and a much bigger problem for the game right now.

**Mesmers** usually dont stay invis long enough for you to really want a reveal to fight them in the first place. At some point they are going to attack you and a reveal wont stop them from doing so.

**Scrappers** stealth can be countered by killing the gyro / Base engi stealth does not last that long enough or is generous enough to require a reveal to fight it

**Ranger** is the one exception on this list as it does have access to more stealth than they realistically needs but a nerf to smoke scale combo field can shut that down at any time without having to simply add more reveals. I honestly dont know what the smoke scale feild is allowed to be a combo finisher its kind a broken but ranger is stupid strong right now in general.

**Warriors, Guardians, Necros, Rev, Ele** cant stealth

No one ever mentioned viability i simply pointed out the fact that i is there and I have used it to kill perm stealth builds before. No its not going to work on its own you still have to make good reads to get the win but generally its there for use. But because you want to argue the point of viability lets look at some other reveal skills in terms of their viability in current builds

Even if we look at professions that heave reveal skills lets question how many of them realistically run those skills in most common current builds.

Ranger

- Sick em (Generally not carried even high burst soul beast dont always use this can be viable but its not something everyone opts to run)

Warrior

- On my Mark (Generally not used its not really viable in current builds just as you pointed out for the necro skill)

- Sight beyond Sight (generally not viable because its not used in current builds)

- Magebane Tether is viable but generally used for might spam sustain in combination with Might makes Right... It just also happens to reveal, this is the most viable reveal in the game right now.

Guardian /Dragon hunter only

- Light's Judgment Trap (questionable viability generally not used)

- Spear of Justice (cant do anything if your target is already invis its not really viable its just a perk you get for using Dragon hunter its more of a bonus than anything)

Engi

- Analyze (Questionably not viable in current builds and cant do anything if your target is already in stealth)

- Detection pulse ( scrapper only this is viable when running scrapper but you dont se it that often it can be avoided its not the best thing ever.)

Rev's

- Gaze of Darkness (This is viable for people who run herald but its range is fairly small more often than not if your target is hiding already you wont reveal them unless they are hugging you)

Necro

- Tainted Shackles (You said was not viable and seems to be in line with alot of other reveal skills in terms of their viability)

Now that we have a list of the reveals in the game and can fairly say that the majority of them are not in your own words "Viable" to current builds. Generally fighting perma stealth is never a good idea. Perma stealth generally cant 1 shot you these days (a mesmer can but thats not perma stealth) a thief certainly can burst you quickly but you do need quick reaction time to avoid insta down in most cases its preventable giving you a chance to counter. More importantly how can you reveal a target if you cant see them most reveal skills require you to hit or be able to see your target at some brief period of time to mark them. When you consider this the core necro tether is one of the best reveal skills in the game considering that you can cast it without a target and have a good chance to hit them. Even magebane requires a a burt hit con firm to reveal.

A better message to be writing to the devs would be trying to make core more realistically viable not trying to add more reveals and reflects to other part of necro.

Im not trying to bash but i felt this needed to be explained in a bit more depth.

We have a reveal actually its on core necro death shroud skill 5 (See [Tainted Shackles](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles "Tainted Shackles")) and yes if you use it with a invisible target near you it will reveal them.

A reflect no we dont really... we have projectile block options and at best thats all it needs to be.

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> Revisiting the redesign ideas in a short way, plus [some new elite specialization ideas](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38383) to see how this redesign would improve future content too:

>

> * **Necromancer:** The Death Shroud mechanic is gone. The new mechanic is the swarm, letting you control multiple companions at once, using a control panel similar to that of ranger pets, in a mechanically-established minion master role. You have five swarms to choose from, with different combat roles, and you can equip two at once, swapping between them with the F4 mechanic skill. The swarm options are Blood (vampirism), Bone (direct damage), Flesh (damage absorption), Plague (condition damage), and Shadow (crowd control). Each swarm is composed of the same basic unit, the horror. The swarm has an unit limit of 12. Once destroyed, horrors will keep respawning until that limit is reached. Swapping the swarm with the F4 skill will heal the active minions, and let you respawn different ones from then on. Previous minions are not destroyed upon swarm swap, so you can combine different types of horrors at once by swapping constantly. Minion slot skills are gone, replaced by glyphs, letting you summon specialist swarm units, the unit changing depending on your current swarm. These specialist minions can take up multiple slots in the limit of 12. For example, the elite glyph (Flesh Golem) might take up to 4 slots, and the healing glyph (Blood Fiend) might take 2. Mechanic skills F1, F2, and F3 let you control the swarm.

>

> * **Reaper:** The Shroud mechanic survives in the reaper, becoming exclusive to him. The Shroud transformation is located at the F5 mechanic skills, and now changes depending on your current swarm, effectively giving reapers five different transformations to choose from. Each of the transformations interacts with the swarm minions in one way or another, driving them into a frenzy, consuming them for more health, etc.

>

> * **Scourge:** The swarm is replaced by shades. Mechanic skill F1 summons a shade, mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4 contain shade skills, and mechanic skill F5 lets you swap to another set of skills. The set of skills are determined by your equipped swarm options, and inherit the same combat roles. Shade skills are now much more meaningful, and reward situational tactical approach.

>

> * **Apothecary:** The swarm is replaced by plague bombs. Mechanic skills F1, F2, F3, F4, and F5 let you equip 5 plague bombs, individually selected from a list of 10. Each bomb has a different explosion pattern, some of them with random properties. You can throw multiple bombs to the same spot, making their explosions combine to get new effects and patterns. New elixir slot skills can randomize your plague bomb effects even further, making them even more dangerous, to the point where they can even kill you when things go wrong.

>

> * **Necrophage:** The swarm can now be consumed to summon a powerful fleshreaver pet. The more minions are consumed, the larger and more powerful the fleshreaver will be. Swarm controls apply to the fleshreaver as well, letting you control it like a regular pet. The fleshreaver is summoned using the F5 mechanic skill, and there's a different type of fleshreaver option for each of the five swarms. You can keep your fleshreaver up for as long as you want, using glyphs to heal it instead of summoning more minions.

>

> * **Swarmhost:** The swarm minions can now be infected with insect larvae. By using the F5 mechanic skill, you make the insects hatch, exploding your regular minions to summon a whole new swarm of hungry invertebrates, which can overwhelm and slaughter your enemies easily. The insects die after a few seconds, and can be easily destroyed by area of effect damage. Their strength lies in numbers and the surprise factor. Once the effect is over, the swarm goes back to its regular respawn cycle. Insects spawned by the F5 skill depend directly on each individual minion type, and not just your current swarm type. The insects steal health from their targets to survive longer. You can also use glyphs to summon more minions, which will be automatically consumed if the insects are up. New venom slot skills let you infect your enemies so that additional insects hatch from them, injuring them in the process. You can also infect yourself as much as you want, sacrificing your own life to make the insect swarm even stronger.

I have to say im not behind these changes because shroud was the first thing that drew me in to love necro as much as I currently do. I feel like we should not be trying to redesign every part of necro to mimic scourge in some way with tons of extra F profession skills and the culling of shroud

More importantly this sounds like it could get visually out of hand in terms of numbers and would require more coding to work properly. (necro minon code is already shudderingly bad....) The devs also already have told us that its hard to change anything that lives in that profession bar area of the game because when it was designed it was not built to be easily changed or edited to heavily. I would keep that in mind when doing redesigns.

Im not behind the flood of F skills on every spec on necro either, i like having my basic f1 skill and thats it. I dont have the quickest fingers or biggest hands so playing anything that starts reaching into f5 region is already hard enough not to mention shroud is almost thrown out of the map with all of these except on reaper and it sounds like would still get changed heavily by this redesign despite reaper itself being a ok spec.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> i woud make shroud in line with Celestial Avatar and the like and make it so shroud doesn't absorb damage (and you still have acces to your utility skills) and giv necro some proper defensive abilities.

>

> something they could do is introduce "dark aura" to the game. aura that applies weakness when stuck and rework deathmagic around that (and rework the minion traits) or something

I think a better way to envision it would be like Holosmiths Holo mode rather than Celestial avatar. Just when i see celestial avatar i never really see it as an offensive thing where as shroud i always think of as an offensive tool just cause welll yeah it has no healing/ supportive skills.

BUT i do support your base idea behind this with the non protected health and use of utility skills.

So long as the damage on the shroud offensive skills are also adjusted properly in the process.

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> How about...

>

> 1. Necrotic Arrow ¾ Send out an arrow that bounces between and damages foes while granting you life force.

> 2. Arrow Cart ¾ 4¾ Send out a few arrows that bleed foes and grant regeneration to allies.

> 3. Chilly Arrow ¾ 16 Send arrows that chill and poison the target area.

> 4. Icky Arrows ¾ 20 Send arrows that transfer conditions from yourself to foes.

> 5. Scary Arrows ¾ 32 Send arrows that cause fear.

a staff copy utility weapon with under subpar damage and high cooldowns...... just sayin no thanks x.x but maybe you were being sarcastic with this