ZDragon.3046

Is this scourge meets mirage with a hint of deadeye?

Its not good enough to be either one though. Your concept of ghost and spiritual play is nice though and I would like to see something more ghostly themed but sticking to the execution of this is set up to doom any necromancer who dares to use it.

First and for most:

At first glance I'm assuming, because of how its written, that you are trading damage avoidance for damage mitigation (A very dangerous game) and thats not a benefit its a handicap to the user in almost ALL situations. Even though the damage reduction last for 3 seconds you are now an still fairly immobile target that cant avoid damage or critical attacks at all. We know what 50% damage reduction feels like simply use core shroud and let some one burst burst your life force bar and see just how fast it goes away. You compare this mechanic to mirage cloak without consider that unlike mirage cloak this mechanic cant avoid things like cc (and you have included no stability in this kit whatsoever), as I mentioned mirage cloak is damage avoidance which is far more valuable than damage mitigation. I would consider making your ghost shroud mechanic down right equal to mirage cloak possibly with the damage reduction triggering after the evade frames for a shorter duration after all necro still wont distracting clones or have a massive array of break targeting skills and something like Jaunt to dance around in a battle.

Second:

I cant tell what you really want this to be. Dps, Support, a non boon style tank, or even just nothing of the sort in some kind of middle ground. You have a skill that marks a target But only traits work with them unless you mean the ghost can only be attached to person you mark which adds whole new level of complexity from my perspective for what really seems like no reason.

This brings me to the AI of the ghost. IF they can be killed by just aoe damage they simply wont work outside of pve. Some of them seem supportive which confuses me a bit because they have 0 offensive action (where is the tormenting in that? All of them need to do something offensive) The whole damage transfer thing simply cant be based on 1 attack in a game where almost every professions burst hits you several times a second over the course of a few seconds. You referenced mesmer clones here, I would suggest just making them pretty much what mesmer clones/phants are. They pop up > Do something strong > go away after. Give the ghost skills multiple charges and increased effects on your target marked with the F1.

The axe:

I like that you put a mark here. I fee like we should have seen marks spread throughout necromancers weapon sets instead of having them all under the staff . I can approve of this idea greatly. The 5th skills is a hot mess though in identity (remove that confusion and retaliation) Not only is it too little we have none of it in any other place of necromancers kit. (Its and axe) Remove the supportive portion for something offensive.

The traits:

Not bad... not bad at all actually I do like the majority of these traits. I feel like they have an identity more so than most of the other parts of the elite setup. (if you look past some of my other critical feed back) They do feel ghostly and appropriate for necromancer generally

Things i dont like:

**You traded the only true bit of damage and crowd control avoidance for damage mitigation** (this one is a big **NO** for me)

Its trying to be alot of things at once... I see Deadeye, Scourge, and Mirage bits when I look at this.

Its still too far off from core necromancer for me to see it as an extension instead its almost like its own profession (kind of like scourge)

I don't like scourge format and (f) skill layout and I sadly never will. I don't like plastering all the skills under f1 -f5 just make it 1 or 2 (f) buttons with all the skills under that (you can do this without a full form transform that loses utility (Holosmith is proof)

Risk that AI makes this about as good as Renegade in any player vs player setting (pve only elite spec)

Things i do like:

Its not as far off as scourge is but its still pretty far from being closer to something that could grow from core necro

**The traits have some very strong potential if the core kit can be cleaned up in a revision with critical feedback taken into consideration.**

You dont see many people suggest off hand Axe for necro.

Overall not the worst concept ive seen but it does need some help possibly a change in how some of this stuff would be executed could make it work very well. (you likely just didn't think that through too much and more so just wanted to get the idea out in the open.)

**Last thoughts**

If by some chance the dodge mechanic actually still "evades" attacks then you can dismiss my pounding on the subject of damage avoidance vs damage mitigation. The way its written though imply that you simply would no long evade attacks at first thought. ( because you mentioned that it does not impair actions but never specifically mention the word "Evade" )

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"jbrother.1340" said:

> > > @"Lexan.5930" said:

> > > With the changes to abrasive grit and other changes to necro over the existance of GW2, it seems clear what I must do.

> > >

> > > Going to swap my main to a ranger. They do everything better than necro

> > > better healing

> > > better power damage

> > > better condi damage

> > > more mobility

> > > better buffing (thanks to abrasive grit change) but then again they have always been better with warhorn anyway and pet

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You can keep it. Most of us if we wanted to main ranger already would be if not already.

> >

> > I don't need better always ever. Sometimes it isn't as important to be the best but to enjoy what you have.

> >

> > Not everyone is trying to min/max themselves into oblivion.

> >

> > If you must do it go do it but could you leave it to that?

>

> Totally agree with this.

>

> I don't care for min/maxing either I care about fun and both Necro and Ranger are classes I find a lot of fun to play and have a lot of build potential when it comes to that.

Ive always felt that necro has the most build potential in the game because its not currently locked into any traitlines. It use to be locked into soul reaping till the vital vital persistence change.

If I recall ranger is still locked into beast mastery at all times. or something like that. could be wrong though.

If you just want to improve core only the only things you can look at is the shroud itself.

adding to any other weapon or traits only pushes reaper and scourge farther away from core as they can benefit from any core changes made that are not simply the shroud itself.

DS1

- is pretty good right now but it should transfer a condition or something even if you have to take the (unyielding blast) trait to make it do so as the trait is pretty poo atm. Making this skill transfer a condition would actually make plague signet make a lot more sense in its passive mechanic.

- If it was me giving core total rework I would make this skill change all together based on what weapon was in your main hand when you activated shroud.

- Staff = life blast (utility based, xfers one condi per shot,

- Dagger = fast cleave attack at close range steals life for light sustain (heals in shroud but not too much)

- Axe = ranged none projectile attack high single target damage (stronger than life blast)

- Scepter = none projectile slow but heavy in condition application single target

DS2

- The projectile is one of the best tracking projectiles in the game although its a bit slow. It simply needs more of an impact on hit. For its cool down its does not do enough. Damage is low conditions applied are small and weak. (Some times with the path of corruption trait) it can still be very under whelming if you convert boons that don't matter and this has no practical use in pve. If it is going to become a targeted teleport make it similar to mesmers **Jaunt** with 2 charges.

- If it were up to me i would change this to the under water skill [**Dark Water**](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Water "**Dark Water**") for a ground targeted aoe on land. Rename the skill to **"Miasma"** (Night Air) so it fits the land purpose. This provides blind and poison in a pulsing aoe for sustain and damage not to mention its strong traits like "path of corruption" for people willing to stand in it.

DS3

- Is pretty solid but the range restriction needs to go. Make it always use the highest base fear on the list

- If it was up to me i would change the skill to always use its underwater variation [**Wave of Fear**](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Fear "**Wave of Fear**") which is a wide but small traveling cone that applies fear in front of the caster for 2 seconds. Its not instant but you could hit more than 1 person with it (maybe do what you did with necromancers scepter.) Taking a certain fear trait like **"Fear of Death"** changes the skill from **"Doom"** into **"Wave of Fear"**

DS4

- This skill literally just needs a lower cooldown and slightly faster quicker channel time. Its damage is pretty considerable (not the best) but not bad. Its biggest flaws is that it just takes too long to use and the cooldown is extremely high. Possibly trade its life force gain mechanic (which usually feels none existent) for something new (0.5 slow on hit per pulse 4.5s) Slow would mean reduce damage as actions are slower, the same feature that the life life force drain, mechanic attempts to imply but making it more noticeable from the players perspective.

DS5

- For the love of god please remove the immobilize from this skill the damage is good, the condition application of torment is good. The immobilizes is pointless though and counterproductive to the torment application.

- Give the skill some cool interaction between the necromancer and tethered targets like foes tethered by this skill get pulled back or foes tethered by this skill take considerably increased damage from other shroud skills while under its effects.

- If we need to retain some sort of crowd control in the skill make it pulse daze on each new application of torment through its duration this does not hinder the torment application and makes ignoring the skill risky without some form of hard strategy and also good for doing damage to defiance bars.

While i do approve of a Death magic rework it wont result in improving core as much as people think. IF it actually improves core then it also improves reaper and scourge meaning core is still left behind as it was before. Meaning it wont feel improved or good enough. People will still feel like they have to play reaper or scourge to be even remotely competitive in any game mode. While you do have the odd balls here and there like myself who will try to force core to work you quickly realize that it just gets ran over in it current state. People are not scared of core utility very much or core shroud.

If we really want to improve core its shroud needs to be as effective as reaper shroud in forcing people to burn defensive tools or keeping people away as scourge shades and desert shroud do.

Once again i do approve of the following things on necro in general but they might only keep the gap between core and the elites the same or make them wider

- Fear improvement (Feared foes drop all targeting while under its effects just as taunt forces one to change targets.) Stop making [**"Fear of Death's"**](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear_of_Death "**"Fear of Death's"**") increased fear duration work like expertise when it should be increasing the base skill duration time. Because it works like expertiese it means that any extra we stack ontop can lead to easy over capping meaning we cant get true fear durations. We cant even make the most of our limited use fears.

- Rework of Death magic

- Improved trait of Foot in the Grave

- Improvement of some minion skills and how they function all together

- Add functionality / mechanic for skills that only focus on hitting foes with boons to have a bonus effect when you hit a foe with no boons for pve use and functionality. (We have too many skills that are lackluster or pointless if enemies never have boons in general pve and some high end areas of pve)

When you know you need the stability it provides you use to to avoid getting locked down by cc.

Or you can set up a burst with it.

Or you can force people to force dodge out of people by canceling it with a weapon stow

Overall its good for helping break defiance bars but not better than golem on big body bosses as the golem will hit several times as it runs through.

I think necro has some weak points but it certainly has its strong points too. That said usually any time some thing becomes strong and competitive to the point that that particular build is extremely close to some of the other top professions doing the same roles its usually nerfed down. Players who often play the top tier professions especially mesmers and warriors (no offense to any players who are not like this but play those professions) do not like it when something they are use to easily running over becomes strong enough to competitively and skillfully compete with them regardless of if its dps in PvE or fighting them in PvP. They simply do not like it and will complain that its too strong while ignoring just how strong they are on that particular profession or how frustrating it can be to fight them on that profession.

**I think currently**

Scourge is strong-ish but is designed poorly and clunky thus making it hit or miss. It will always be overly strong in some modes and stupidly pointless in others.

- It's always frustrating to fight unless you are purely high mobility and long range. Sadly most combat happens in melee ranger making them one of the most unfun professions to fight against pvp wise. Its been bugged or had busted interactions multiple times now which has caused it to gain several strikes of hate from other professions in the gw2 community. Its not considered good enough at being dps role or support role in PvE. Its designed seems to be an attempt to fix necromancers problems as it plays like its own profession more so than an extension of the core guild wars 2 necromancer.

Reaper has slowly been catching up and we can only hope anet intends to make this stick for the better and not simply rip it away in the next balance change.

- Most of reapers advancements have come from core improvements which is a good thing. It means anet is trying to improve core necromancer but sadly they are only making the elite specs stronger and not fixing core in itself at all really. Reaper is almost in a good spot to be called strong in its own right and with a few tweaks to it and not other parts of necro it could be considered in line with most other professions.

Core necromancer is in a serious hole. (its miles behind almost everything in the game aside from maybe core engi and rev)

- Anet has shown us that they are looking at core necromancer with the recent changes how ever we have run into a problem. The only way to make core stronger is to buff its traits, skills, and shroud. But as mentioned buffing the traits and skills only push reaper and scourge to new levels of power. This means the gap between core and reaper or even core and scourge never closes and in some cases the gap only grows bigger. The only way to really close this gap is to purely buff the heck out of core shroud as its the only thing that wont extend over to reaper and scourge. This leads to another problem though At what point does buffing the core shroud make reaper shroud inferior because there is a limit that can be crossed that would make reaper flat out pointless if the core shroud became too strong in terms of damage.

Dont get me wrong i dont want to be overpowered but there is a difference when you get skillfully outplayed vs when you simply cannot win or have very little chance against something else because its tools are too forgiving / rewarding and too accessible.

Because im a core and reaper fan boy though im more saddened over the necro community backlash that has come of this. People are not willing to think reasonably and a lot of the things ive read here lately i doubt will help solve any of our problems.

People are upset over the Abrasive grit change but once again this is a design problem, Scourge was suppose to be a support spec and it launched with very little support and a lot of misplaced dps. I suspect had its traits been built more along the lines of a support from the get go it this fix to Abrasive grit would be easily shrugged off. Its not about the design choice to put in this the new rune its the design choice that made scourge exist to start with. People are missing the point entirely and backlashing for all the wrong reasons. :cold_sweat:

If you dont need the speed but find that moment impairments are a issue

Try Hoelbrak rune with Relentless Pursuit In shroud makes you nearly immune to movement impairing conditions although

Speed rune will still outdo this for chill and cripple the only condition that will get you killed will be immobilize

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"cylin.7048" said:

> > Weaver needs no nerf, only this specific rune. Weaver just has the problem that a certain super high skilled pro keeps on posting the best of his fights so everyone thinks thats how weavers usually roll. They don't.

>

> Good joke. Ele needs this change because the rune is OP on 1/27 specs. Clearly it's the real logical winner to nerf the trait and not the rune interacting with it because that would lead to individual player frustrations on not being able to control when it procs. Because you know our playerbase has all that individual knowledge readily available to them on the best UI to exist. Anet knows we're just that dang good, that they'd rather blame the player than the systems team who designed a bad system.

In reality this rune is nothing similar to the whole scourge issue.

Evasion rune is strong on weaver yes but it is limited for starters only 1 condition can be removed per second with the setup and I think only one of their skills evades for 2 seconds or something. So for starters the amount of conditions removed is limited by how many dodges and evades a person can do. Weaver just happens to have a good number of them.

In reality though people point out weaver when this rune could be even more broken on daredevil who can achieve a similar setup and is less limited by cooldowns on dodges also removing multiple conditions on evading an attack.

This rune is strong on a few professions... heck even core warrior dodge just as much as a daredevil does (the good ones anyways) can abuse this rune for insane condition clear along side weapon swap clearing.

But seriously the biggest differences that **rune of evasions potential is limited to the number of evades a profession can do** unlike abrasive grit which had no limitations as long as you attacked something with any skill regardless to how much damage you dealt. There is 0 limiting factor in this game on how much you can attack something but there is a limit on how much you can evaded even with weaver. Scourge on the other hand a profession with instant or near instant aoe's on demand that can't be stopped at that. The potential is not nearly on the same level as rune of evasion to call it broken.

I mean i just named 3 specs off the top of my head that i know can dodge a lot that in itself shows that the rune is not on the same level of being busted like sanctuary was which was only god tier on scourge with abrasive grit because it fits into a few different professions and not just a single 1 with a single elite spec.

This whole things is just so silly.

Its a shame that the necro community is trying to take low blows at other professions just because of small fix that might work out better in the long run for the spec in general.

Ranger is too boring to play imo its not nothing super interesting like necro has all its uniqueness is based mostly around the long bow and even if you go power axes or something it still gets old rather fast.

> @"messiah.1908" said:

> i think anet didnt want it to work on regen cause it would have been broken. they just missed scourge trait and fixed it too.

It wont work on most passive healing abilities me and a friend tested what had to be almost all professions and their traits and its odd that it seems to mostly be tied to traits that heal you for doing an action of some sort but not passive traits that tend to linger over a long time (meaning you could get the effect for doing nothing )

Things like might makes right will trigger it But adrinal health will not, I suspect the unholy sanctuary trait in death magic on necro wont trigger it because of how passive it is But life steal effects do because they require you to be constantly attacking to make them trigger.

Most things that trigger the barrier application require you to do something Oddly enough rousing resilience on warrior will not trigger it although it requires the action of breaking a stun. But this was likely decided to prevent over rewarding (getting all that toughness, a meaty heal, and a mini barrier) might have been too much on paper.

My question is why are you trying to change a core trait when it was not the the key problem with the interaction. IF you take this rune with the trait you called out under core necromancer it works as intended infact its not broken at all at best you get 120-200 points of barrier which is milted away by a single condtion tick or 2 even if the person applying that conndition is on a power build. The same goes fro reaper.

- The problem didn't start till you started to look at scourge.

- Your fix is not a fix tot be done on a hot fix

I will continue to say it again and again scourge needed that fix for the time being. You dont like it but there was no other way around it and thats a simple fact.

So many suggestions ive seen are implying that core blood magic traits should not trigger it when they were not the problem

Or to make barrier activate it on a numerical value which is going to seem like clunky code work not to mention it just sounds silly. No other traits work on numerical value (most of them are percent based) like that so it would likely have to be newly written and tested code not idea for a hot fix.

To be honest this could benfit scourge more in the long run and people are just not willing to wait and or see if it does.

My proposal would be to simply untie Abrasive from barrier application and link it back to scourge shade skills instead and maybe this will be what anet does in the next weekly patch or balance patch.

It would give you

- your burst condi cleanse if you use all skills at once

- your area support for allies

- Remove the need of a internal cooldown from the trait a its now limited by life force management and shade cooldowns

- Prevent the trait from being abused again in the future if they add more barrier application mechanics to the game

- Prevent them from having to write exception codes every time when they add new barrier mechanics to the game.

People say the rune was broken but no other profession had an issue with it except scourge that means the rune is not broken this means that scourge has poorly flawed design that was nor foresaw when the consideration of this rune was thought out. In fact scourge was the only one to have a **"Broken"** interaction with it.

So you don't kill the rune which works fine as intended on every other profession and only busted with scourge. Instead you fix the scourge interaction problem.

This serves 2 purposes

- Future QoL if they ever want to find more or new ways to bring barrier to necormancer at a core level or though other runes or traits (or even shared by other professions) the issue simply wont resurface again and they wont have to write exception codes each time. Remember adding content without simplifying quality of life and standards makes increased workload when checking for broken interactions.

- It allows them to continue to test the new interaction across all professions rather than just removing something from the game right away because one elite spec could abuse it. (they can decide later if they want to remove it if it simply does not work out as fair tool across many professions and specs.)

**"Why didn't they just do 'x and y'."**

Keep in mind most of the ideas that fall under the "They should have just done 'this or that'." category negates the 2 purposes above and were not not key solutions for a quick **hot fix** patch and thus likely why they didn't do them.

#My Thoughts for revamping the trait

Personally would rather see a whole rework of scourge entirely but for contributing to the fix of this particular trait. I would Remove the outlying factor by Un constricting the trait from barrier application and give it another key trigger instead.

**Abrasive Grit** (returns to having no icd)

Manifest Sand shade and other Shade skills Grant might & Cleanse one condition from allies in their radius on activation.

Just like that scourge has nearly every bit of every thing back without the need to worry about future mistakes with barrier application

They wont need to write exceptions every time if they want to add more barrier mechanics in the Future to keep the this trait from breaking over again.

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right considering we dont see any other numeric value trait that works like that with barrier that would have to be 100% new code and thats not something you do in a HoT fix. For now options 1 and 2 were the only options that make sense.

>

> There's a straightforward way to do it: you just change AG to a trait that modifies shade and punishment skills, so that it procs when those skills grant barrier. Doesn't hurt support scourge, AFAIK, and no more rune interaction.

That would be a change that has to be saved for the next weekly patch or balance patch as that involves a few different skills and change of mechanics slightly. Thats not something you do in a hot fix but yes that could have worked as well.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> >

> > To be fair i think thats simple. We dont have many testers / devs who dive deep into necromancer as they should. After me and a friend tested the rune on every profession with a ton of different skills that heal its clear they put some strong rules on what would trigger the rune and what wouldn't its not random when you start looking at what will trigger it and what wont.

> >

> > My **"guess"** would be that most of them focus on mesmer, ele, warrior, or ranger. The top professions get the most time because they bring in the most money and make up a larger portion of the active player base. But people who commit to necro in generally find the loop holes that the devs don't ever think to explore. Scourge has had quite a few now which is the real incompetent part. (not surprising considering its so different from base necro)

> >

> > I dont think they are dumb and it would be just ignorant to call them as such. You cant ever expect devs to use tools built in any game the way the players would that almost never happens.

> >

> > A prime example would be to look at weaver. It has a skill called "Unravel" or something that takes weavers element combination and breaks it back down to simple ele formant for a short time. This was likely worked in because "they" thought it might be a useful or important tool for players to have. But as far as I know almost no one uses that tool.

> > In scourges case it tends to be the opposite example. ITs given tools that "They" may not have put much thought into as a result later becomes a problem once the players get a hold of them and start to play around with them. I think scourge's tools were not ever really thought through. Scourge was the attempt to please necro players cries for "I wish necro didn't have shroud, then we could be like 'x' or have the same things as 'y'." But ive never seen an elite spec cause so much fuss and create so much imbalance in the game as this one under un intended mechanics multiple times.

>

> When you intend to introduce a mechanism that generate easily a lot of barrier, you look at the wiki on the barrier page. If you see no possible exploit it's fine, otherwise you don't carry on with this mechanism. It's not even a matter of whether they use or not the necromancer.

>

Considering that before hand scourge's barrier application was still pretty gated by the skill cooldowns I can see how they missed the one problem trait in question. The reason they likely carried on with it is because they don't want professions to be outliers when it comes to certain mechanics... (alacrity / barrier being the two prime examples)

> PS.: I disagree with you, I believe that the necromancer is one of the profession that inspire them the most and that they are really invested into this profession. They love it as it is and don't want it to change or lose the identity that gave it in any way. From my point of view, the necromancer is still the only profession in GW2 for which sake they are ready to bend the game in order to make it better instead of just tweeking it and formating it into something close to what other professions do. It's to the point that I'd say that they are "fanatics" when it come to the necromancer.

I dont really want to speak on what inspires them because thats just up in the air for back and forth debate that will never end, I will say you could possibly be right but i wont say you surely are right

I dont doubt they invest into necro it showed with reaper alone that they were more than willing to invest heavily in necro with great detail. But Compared to some of the other profession it still shows they get considerably more investment. Mesmer obviously does its the only profession up till scourge to bring new mechanics into the game that only it could access, first was alacrity, now they are the only ones who can take any offensive option they want while dodging via mirage cloak. They got a ground up rework to address long lasting issues, and its never had for technical purposes "Unintended mechanics that lead swarms of imbalance on levels as high like scourge has now multiple times."

I never said they didn't invest with necro but im simply saying i dont think its invested more than some other professions.

Lets assume you are correct and you could be, however if they didnt want to change necro or make it loose its identity, I dont think scourge would have come to be as it is now to be honest. We would have simply seen a new take on shroud with new shroud skills. I think that scourge was 100% an attempt to give players what they had been asking for, for a loooong time. A necro with "no shroud."

I do agree with you that necro is one of the more unique professions and thats what keeps me drawn into it. But that only extends to core and reaper for me. Scourge simply too different by my eyes its nearly its own profession. Maybe its closer to something in the first guild wars but this is not that game.

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > Please explain the reasoning of nerfing a necromancer support trait because you released a rune without considering necromancer's traits.

> >

> > There are so few specs that have barrier application. When you create a new item, dont you want to test its interaction with everything else in the game that might be affected by it?

> > And tbh it was not so hard in this case.

> >

> > I dont want to sound rude but yes now i also agree that recent events have shown ignorance and incompetency on devs part.

> >

> > If you do not remember every trait from a class of your own game after 6 years then you are incompetent to make judgement regarding balance in my eyes. This is your work not a hobby, you should be forced to remember every kitten trait and skill from game as homework on the first week of your job so that these kind of occurence dont happen.

>

> I heard about the broken interaction roughly 45 minutes after the patch was launched. Twitch/YouTube streamers were showing it within hours. How this wasn't spotted by the developers who were working on this for "a long time", is beyond explanation.

>

> I'm not one to jump on the "durr developers are dum" bandwagon, but this is truly an example of incompetence.

>

To be fair i think thats simple. We dont have many testers / devs who dive deep into necromancer as they should. After me and a friend tested the rune on every profession with a ton of different skills that heal its clear they put some strong rules on what would trigger the rune and what wouldn't its not random when you start looking at what will trigger it and what wont.

My **"guess"** would be that most of them focus on mesmer, ele, warrior, or ranger. The top professions get the most time because they bring in the most money and make up a larger portion of the active player base. But people who commit to necro in generally find the loop holes that the devs don't ever think to explore. Scourge has had quite a few now which is the real incompetent part. (not surprising considering its so different from base necro)

I dont think they are dumb and it would be just ignorant to call them as such. You cant ever expect devs to use tools built in any game the way the players would that almost never happens.

A prime example would be to look at weaver. It has a skill called "Unravel" or something that takes weavers element combination and breaks it back down to simple ele formant for a short time. This was likely worked in because "they" thought it might be a useful or important tool for players to have. But as far as I know almost no one uses that tool.

In scourges case it tends to be the opposite example. ITs given tools that "They" may not have put much thought into as a result later becomes a problem once the players get a hold of them and start to play around with them. I think scourge's tools were not ever really thought through. Scourge was the attempt to please necro players cries for "I wish necro didn't have shroud, then we could be like 'x' or have the same things as 'y'." But ive never seen an elite spec cause so much fuss and create so much imbalance in the game as this one under un intended mechanics multiple times.

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > @"Aslakh.3072" said:

> > > > @ZDragon.3046 You do realise i was common for people to place a shade, use sand cascade and use sand shroud within 3 seconds to barrier themselves and clear conditions after taking damage and conditions. This isn't niche, people did run sand cascade before now and it is a significant nerf to its condition clearing capabilities which to many was the main draw of the trait.

> > >

> > > Agreed. Previously we had the flexibility to manage our barriers according to the number of condis that needed clearing. We could choose to clear one or multiple in a couple of seconds. Now we can only clear one or two every 5 seconds.

> >

> > Once again if you hinge all your self condi clearing on what should be a supportive trait more for your allies on necro of all professions then thats a build problem personally in my perspective. I simply cant feel sorry for the idea that "I cant use it selfishly as often anymore." It was never meant to be your main personal condi cleanser to start with.

> > I already said 5 seconds might be a bit much but to be fair keep in mind a few things

> >

> > This is an adept trait

> > This trait is meant for supporting allies and based on its text it shouldn't work on you at all to start with (but the game allows things like this across all professions )

> > You have other condition management options on necormancer all over the place.

> > This trait was hurt the mostly for its supportive capabilities (and thats what pains me a bit more) I dont feel bad that you cant spam it on yourself as often when it was never meant to be a self sustaining trait to start with.

>

> Maybe. But necro doesn't have many barrier applications.

> Most of the times its exactly 2.

> And also putting an icd on the trait that makes barriers good is pretty bad.

> In PvP you will almost always use f1+3 together to block big boss hits. -> nerfed

> In pvps you used them to try cleanse damaging conditions for you and your allies. In wvw its not even mostly taken because it cleanses, but because you can have barrier when engaging while also giving your group might. -> nerfed

>

> To have those 2 skills back up infight, then the Condi clear was a nice addition, if you got bombed, you could use f3 + healskill, to provide party support, both together. Now that's not worth anymore

For along time ive not been as scourge fan (not because its annoying to fight) but because its too different from what drew me to necro in the first place, and i could always see that it required far more work for far too little reward from my personal perspective (after the ez bugs got worked out).

When we were told that power was being removed from scourge because it was suppose to be a support spec i wanted to give anet a chance. Then support got hit because balance in wvw or something like that. We still saw no support power return. It's been months now with no signs of a rework to make it more support-ish as they said it would be. This rune change only triggered people to use a support trait selfishly. I do hope that scourge can be a good support spec one day but even before this abrasive hot fix it still was pretty poor and subpar outside of anything thats not WvW. They are a nice to have in PvE but people wont beg for them to be around.

Maybe this is just a hot fix to hold over till the balance patch where a more proper fix for the trait can be worked in and at that time maybe its supportive power will be restored.

I still think scourge overall is in need of a total rework because its been flawed from the start, clunky from the start, a problem for most of the player base from the start, and disliked buy a massive portion of the player base from the start. Many people who love scourge are hurt over this but just as many people who are hurt by how frustrating scourge is or "was" under unintended mechanics for the period of time they have to deal with it. What kills me the most is the fact that this is not the 1st but the 2nd or 3rd time now that scourge gets something crazy by mistake which leads to yet another several steps down. Each time this happens it a strike of hate on the elite in general because its not fun to deal with or manage even more so when the wvw and pvp areas of the game get flooded with them.

Most of scourges cuts has been purely from WvW and PvP which leads me to think that the problem is not with the balance team its with the basic design of scourge to start with. Its simply not currently designed in a way where it will ever be player vs player friendly and be wanted in pve at the same time. I have to say im a bit numb to the things that go down these days but i knew this would be the option anet would take in this case. Its not that I hate scourge players or fans but it was clear to see this coming and simply hoping for anything else was being a bit blind to the overall whole situation of scourge in general. I look at the past and make a judgement call whoa is me for being correct.

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.

> > > > > > They had 2 options really

> > > > > > 1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)

> > > > > > -or-

> > > > > > 2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

> > > > >

> > > > > The foolish optimist in me hopes that they only made this change due to it taking longer to change the rune, and they will revert Abrasive Grit once they finish implementing the change.

> > > >

> > > > All im saying is that it was totally ironic that scourges were using a rune to proc what should have been a supportive trait selfishly then when the trait gets bumped to be more in line but still usable (when many were not even using it before more than likely) people lash out about it.... like what..... excuse me. Even if you did use the trait before this rune no way you were popping it more than 1 once every 3-5 seconds anyways unless you were in those panic barrier spaz moments where you use your heal followed by desert shroud right away. I mean come on now... this is a all a bit silly.

> > > >

> > > > If the rune goes away or gets change i see no issue with abrasive grit returning to its old self with no icd i would be all for it.

> > >

> > > On a personal note, I always knew if I popped a barrier or 3 I would remove a condition or 3.

> >

> > To be fair a while it is a helpful trait in removing conditions from yourself it was never intended to be used for selfish removal. Necro has soooooo many other options for getting rid of and clensing condi. To hinge the idea this trait getting a icd is that bad is simply comical. I think 5 seconds is too high to be honest 3 seconds would have been more reasonable. But generally if something is over exploited it gets pushed harder as hot fix than it would with balance change.

> >

> > In fact I the only place i feel its impacted the most is in pve and maybe wvw where most scourges might use it for its intended purpose of cleansing condi's on allies not themselves.

>

> Then you'll be interested to know I play wvw almost exclusively.

Fair enough (im sorry your support power got hit) but im not sorry that personal sustain took a hit along side it when it was not meant to be a personal sustain tool to start with

I suspect this change wont be the only one though that comes off these new runes. Scourge was just one of the first things brought into the light. There is still a balance change to come after this so I say hold your hopes for that and see what comes of it.

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"Aslakh.3072" said:

> > @ZDragon.3046 You do realise i was common for people to place a shade, use sand cascade and use sand shroud within 3 seconds to barrier themselves and clear conditions after taking damage and conditions. This isn't niche, people did run sand cascade before now and it is a significant nerf to its condition clearing capabilities which to many was the main draw of the trait.

>

> Agreed. Previously we had the flexibility to manage our barriers according to the number of condis that needed clearing. We could choose to clear one or multiple in a couple of seconds. Now we can only clear one or two every 5 seconds.

Once again if you hinge all your self condi clearing on what should be a supportive trait more for your allies on necro of all professions then thats a build problem personally in my perspective. I simply cant feel sorry for the idea that "I cant use it selfishly as often anymore." It was never meant to be your main personal condi cleanser to start with.

I already said 5 seconds might be a bit much but to be fair keep in mind a few things

This is an adept trait

This trait is meant for supporting allies and based on its text it shouldn't work on you at all to start with (but the game allows things like this across all professions )

You have other condition management options on necormancer all over the place.

This trait was hurt the mostly for its supportive capabilities (and thats what pains me a bit more) I dont feel bad that you cant spam it on yourself as often when it was never meant to be a self sustaining trait to start with.

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.

> > > > They had 2 options really

> > > > 1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)

> > > > -or-

> > > > 2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

> > > >

> > > > To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

> > > >

> > > > While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

> > > >

> > > > My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

> > >

> > > The foolish optimist in me hopes that they only made this change due to it taking longer to change the rune, and they will revert Abrasive Grit once they finish implementing the change.

> >

> > All im saying is that it was totally ironic that scourges were using a rune to proc what should have been a supportive trait selfishly then when the trait gets bumped to be more in line but still usable (when many were not even using it before more than likely) people lash out about it.... like what..... excuse me. Even if you did use the trait before this rune no way you were popping it more than 1 once every 3-5 seconds anyways unless you were in those panic barrier spaz moments where you use your heal followed by desert shroud right away. I mean come on now... this is a all a bit silly.

> >

> > If the rune goes away or gets change i see no issue with abrasive grit returning to its old self with no icd i would be all for it.

>

> On a personal note, I always knew if I popped a barrier or 3 I would remove a condition or 3.

To be fair a while it is a helpful trait in removing conditions from yourself it was never intended to be used for selfish removal. Necro has soooooo many other options for getting rid of and clensing condi. To hinge the idea this trait getting a icd is that bad is simply comical. I think 5 seconds is too high to be honest 3 seconds would have been more reasonable. But generally if something is over exploited it gets pushed harder as hot fix than it would with balance change.

In fact I the only place i feel its impacted the most is in pve and maybe wvw where most scourges might use it for its intended purpose of cleansing condi's on allies not themselves.

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.

> > They had 2 options really

> > 1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)

> > -or-

> > 2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

> >

> > To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

> >

> > While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

> >

> > My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

>

> You forgot option 3: make Rune of the Sanctuary specifically not proc Abrasive Grit. Perhaps they code the rune as another source for the barrier rather than the player, keeping Abrasive Grit from proccing as the player is not applying the barrier. Perhaps they put a minimum barrier value on Abrasive Grit that is high enough to cover every single skill/trait that grants Barrier, but not Rune+Vampiric Aura. There are more ways they could have done it.

You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right considering we dont see any other numeric value trait that works like that with barrier that would have to be 100% new code and thats not something you do in a HoT fix. For now options 1 and 2 were the only options that make sense.

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.

> > They had 2 options really

> > 1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)

> > -or-

> > 2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

> >

> > To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

> >

> > While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

> >

> > My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

>

> The foolish optimist in me hopes that they only made this change due to it taking longer to change the rune, and they will revert Abrasive Grit once they finish implementing the change.

All im saying is that it was totally ironic that scourges were using a rune to proc what should have been a supportive trait selfishly then when the trait gets bumped to be more in line but still usable (when many were not even using it before more than likely) people lash out about it.... like what..... excuse me. Even if you did use the trait before this rune no way you were popping it more than 1 once every 3-5 seconds anyways unless you were in those panic barrier spaz moments where you use your heal followed by desert shroud right away. I mean come on now... this is a all a bit silly.

If the rune goes away or gets change i see no issue with abrasive grit returning to its old self with no icd i would be all for it.

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> >

> > Thats too bad because i made a call on what would likely happen based on what makes the most sense from my point of view and thats exactly what happened so lets move on from the whole abrasive grit thing at this point.

> >

> > Secondly keep in mind that the person doing the power rez'ing is not what determines of a person gets the barrier the down player determines that when they slot the rune. You still have the options of attacking the reviver and in the event you cant do that its time to consider that maybe you shouldn't have tried to 1v2 or tried to sit there and cleave a body down when you likely didnt have the damage to do so if they have a support sitting on them or the tools to negate the revive. You have just as much opportunity to get saved by a power healer and not be cleaved down as anyone you might be trying to cleave down.

> >

> > Lastly dont even bring WvW into any kind of balance perspective you would think anet needs to start putting a discalmer on wvw "You are about to ender World vs World. Some things you will run into here will not be balanced as the number of active players increases. " You must realize that almost anything in wvw can be broken with the right number of people the or the right coordination and thats just fact.

>

> One of the most inmature starts to a post I have seen in a long time, sadly incredibly unexpected however. You never said that's what you think will happen but what should happen. That it was more likely to be an ICD more or less everyone was aware of, I was arguing for what would have been the better fix.

Im sure it wont be the last, but thanks for taking the time to point that out :+1: (i guess i could have done that better my apologizes) But seriously there was not going to be a better fix because the rune is not causing a major problem in any other way. This ideally was the better fix (if the numbers used are upsetting im sorry but thats not my call) Anet even said they spent alot of time working on this rune and sigil change you cant expect them to simply throw their work in the trash after a single day of use even more so when what i said a few post ago is pretty much spot on the money. Scourge was an outlier with barrier and now that barrier is being shared through the game in other areas its not surprising that scourge will have some odd ball things come up.

The rune accommodated the rest of the game. To put a cool down on the run was not going to be a proper fix it would have invalidated it competently on every build that might even want to consider using it but scourge (assuming abrasive grit didnt get the icd) and would have become something only used by scourge to proc what should be mostly an altruistic trait selfishly. You have to see the problem with this correct?

>

> I am very aware of the fact that the downed person needs the rune. I only argue from a smallscale WvW perspective, sPvP is one of the most exercises in avoiding fights one can imagine imo, hence I believe any balance discussion about sPvP is pointless because you don't win sPvP by winning fights, you win it by being better at rotating. I could not care less about the implication of the current sanctuary rune in sPvP. There are no tools to negate a ress beyond impact strike (Daredevil Elite).

I have proposed that more skills like this be invited to the game as stomping is such an old mechanic I would love to see more elite skills finish people off instantly on hit (not every single one of them but at least 1 or 2 on each profession would be nice)

> The downstate is a crutch that arbitrarily benefits groups simply for being bigger in a way that skill can't compensate for as you can't be better or worse at ressing. I have 0 chance to be saved by a power resser as I don't zerg or in general run with randoms and ressing is fairly useless when outnumbered. This rune is a very strong rune that can more or less go in every build (20% more healing received is one of the best 6 set bonuses in the game). The extra ressing power simply makes ressing even more cancerous. Besides downstate is hardly or has ever really been a problem in sPvP so that it's a WvW perspective should be fairly obvious from context...

Its not bad to have a strong rune though plenty of runes are strong just under different applications. Im sure anet knew about the down state barrier that would likely be impossible not to test while working on this rune if anything they left it in intentionally. Anet even picked what skill will proc the run while not in the down state so I can only assume that the fully knew what could come off the down state barrier and if it become that big of an issue im sure they could simply turn it off at any time. But they want to likely give it a testing period first.

To be fair everything in this game can be by your terms "cancerous".... getting 1 shot is cancerous, getting rez'ed to fast is cancerous, getting condi bombed is cancerous. So I take your words on how this rune works as "cancerous" as its just as broken as every other thing people dislike in a player vs player setting in this game. Meaning its perfectly fine.

I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.

They had 2 options really

1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)

-or-

2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I have to disagree partly still.

> > While the rune set could be part of the issue.

> > The problem with your "change to accommodate the rest of the game" is the fact that it already does that when you look at its intended purpose (even if the value is a bit low). The issue here is that scourge introduced the barrier mechanic basically. Its traits were designed around it pretty much being the main if not the only porfession that would be able to produce / share barrier. This actually makes scourge the outlier here.

> >

> > Barrier is slowly slipping into other parts of the game on other professions and elites and now this is the first attempt to test with a rune set its not surprising that scourge has a unintended interaction because of it.

> > Yes they could change the rune but i think putting a cooldown on the rune would be more clunky for every one else in the game who potentially would want to use the rune. In fact with your suggestion of hitting the rune with a cooldown makes it unviable and invalid for its 'intended purpose' on any build if they do that at its current 20% conversion value. It would literally become a scourge only rune simply for "abrasive grit." proc'ing, and im sorry but thats not accommodating the rest of the game.

> >

> > So we will have to agree to disagree.

> >

>

> Yet putting a minimum value for abrasive grit would fix all issues with this without nerfing anything. If we're talking about changes that impact the game as little as possible that must be the best option here. In general ICDs are very lazy and bad fixes.

>

> Also ressing is almost always vs cleaving (except when noone is ressing). Adding 20% of all healing done as barrier makes cleaving 20% harder. This is a buff to downstate. The downstate is already bad enough, I shudder at the thought of how it will be once 70% of the WvW population runs around with sanctuary.

Thats too bad because i made a call on what would likely happen based on what makes the most sense from my point of view and thats exactly what happened so lets move on from the whole abrasive grit thing at this point.

Secondly keep in mind that the person doing the power rez'ing is not what determines of a person gets the barrier the down player determines that when they slot the rune. You still have the options of attacking the reviver and in the event you cant do that its time to consider that maybe you shouldn't have tried to 1v2 or tried to sit there and cleave a body down when you likely didnt have the damage to do so if they have a support sitting on them or the tools to negate the revive. You have just as much opportunity to get saved by a power healer and not be cleaved down as anyone you might be trying to cleave down.

Lastly dont even bring WvW into any kind of balance perspective you would think anet needs to start putting a discalmer on wvw "You are about to ender World vs World. Some things you will run into here will not be balanced as the number of active players increases. " You must realize that almost anything in wvw can be broken with the right number of people the or the right coordination and thats just fact.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > And no it would be easier just to give it a internal cooldown and keeps it consistent with other trait coding. There is not any trait that list barrier by the numeric value that triggers something else to happen.

> > > >

> > > > The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain.

> > >

> > > Nope, the quickest and easiest fix would be to replace the barrier by a healing effect. This would basically do the same thing, without procing scourge trait. There is no point in looking so far as modifying necromancer's traits or whatever, the issue is the rune effect not the necromancer's traits.

> >

> > Considering how busted healing modifiers can get I would assume that they didnt do that for a few reasons

> > 1 all the healing effects have already been done a few times over on a few different runes

> > 2 Adding a brand new healing modifier Rune breaks some professions far more than others

> > 3 Its not a healing rune

> > 4 You dont run a rune that grants you increased or bonus healing based on incoming heals you may not have control over on none healing builds the rune would be oddly more clunky than it already is.

> >

> > The reasons why the scourge trait can be changed and it wont even matter

> > 1 before this rune scourge could not spam barrier onto itself that frequently to make Abrasive grit overly busted so it wont matter if it has a slight icd or not.

> > 2 It cleans things up as a QoL for future barrier mechanics we might see on other runes , sigils, and possibly other core skills and or traits and prevents the same mishap from happening again.

> > 3 Technically the skill states when you grant barrier to allies not yourself, meaning you shouldn't get any benifit from it to start with but because of how things like that work yeah....

> >

> > That said it wont hurt to give abrasive grit a icd so long as its fair ish and or low ish. a few seconds.

>

> I disagree, _abrasive grit_ with an ICD will be very clunky for any other runeset while it will still overperform with this runeset. ANet just can't and mustn't balance trait under the assumption that a specific runeset will be taken. Ultimately the problem is the runeset and it's the runeset that must change to accomodate the rest of the game. The barrier gen is the root of the problem not the trait that react to the barrier gen. If you want to put an ICD put it on the runeset not on the traits.

I have to disagree partly still.

While the rune set could be part of the issue.

The problem with your "change to accommodate the rest of the game" is the fact that it already does that when you look at its intended purpose (even if the value is a bit low). The issue here is that scourge introduced the barrier mechanic basically. Its traits were designed around it pretty much being the main if not the only porfession that would be able to produce / share barrier. This actually makes scourge the outlier here.

Barrier is slowly slipping into other parts of the game on other professions and elites and now this is the first attempt to test with a rune set its not surprising that scourge has a unintended interaction because of it.

Yes they could change the rune but i think putting a cooldown on the rune would be more clunky for every one else in the game who potentially would want to use the rune. In fact with your suggestion of hitting the rune with a cooldown makes it unviable and invalid for its 'intended purpose' on any build if they do that at its current 20% conversion value. It would literally become a scourge only rune simply for "abrasive grit." proc'ing, and im sorry but thats not accommodating the rest of the game.

So we will have to agree to disagree.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > And no it would be easier just to give it a internal cooldown and keeps it consistent with other trait coding. There is not any trait that list barrier by the numeric value that triggers something else to happen.

> >

> > The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain.

>

> Nope, the quickest and easiest fix would be to replace the barrier by a healing effect. This would basically do the same thing, without procing scourge trait. There is no point in looking so far as modifying necromancer's traits or whatever, the issue is the rune effect not the necromancer's traits.

Considering how busted healing modifiers can get I would assume that they didnt do that for a few reasons

1 all the healing effects have already been done a few times over on a few different runes

2 Adding a brand new healing modifier Rune breaks some professions far more than others

3 Its not a healing rune

4 You dont run a rune that grants you increased or bonus healing based on incoming heals you may not have control over on none healing builds the rune would be oddly more clunky than it already is.

The reasons why the scourge trait can be changed and it wont even matter

1 before this rune scourge could not spam barrier onto itself that frequently to make Abrasive grit overly busted so it wont matter if it has a slight icd or not.

2 It cleans things up as a QoL for future barrier mechanics we might see on other runes , sigils, and possibly other core skills and or traits and prevents the same mishap from happening again.

3 Technically the skill states when you grant barrier to allies not yourself, meaning you shouldn't get any benifit from it to start with but because of how things like that work yeah....

That said it wont hurt to give abrasive grit a icd so long as its fair ish and or low ish. a few seconds.