ZDragon.3046

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Honestly you give a nice numbers break down but your comparison is just....... bad....

> > I dont specifically understand why you compare necro (reaper) to warrior of any kind to be honest. The better comparisons to make would be to elementalist defenses or mesmer defense as they are also scholar professions, not soldier professions. Warrior will always give necro a hard time and we shouldn't be comparing it to necro simply because its one of the harder matchups that often wins against necro.

>

> i wanted to compare These to because both are melee specs facing the same Problems of being supposed to push at some Point. melee range usually means a lot more Incoming dmg.

>

Remember though elite specs are side styles and ways of playing the core profession differently. Yes reaper brings necromancer in to more melee focused aspect but at its core its still a scholar and casting profession where as warrior is always melee focused at its core and SB specifically focused on countering attacks while providing defense through magical offense and utility.

I still think you should have looked at other scholar professions, Mesmer has melee aspects to it and weaver is ideally focused on being in melee range but has good defensive tools as well.

> > You also failed to factor in condition application which plays a big role in necromancer efficiency and sustain regardless of if you play it as power or damage condi. Even with power you still have things like Cripple, Weakness, Chill, (and possibly imobe) to consider.

>

> every class has Access to cripple/chill, some classes like ranger even more to immob. also the spellbreaker can copy everything you give him back to you with fc. so the Advantage is not really existing.

>

What you say here is true but necormancer by far has more access than any other profession through procing and boon conversion making it a high pressure condition spec even if you play power necro its not uncommon to blind, cripple, weaken, and chill foes consistently more than just about any other profession in the game.

Thats why conditions play a much bigger role with necromancer. Ideally until anet culls boons and removes necro as the games dedicated boon balance manager of the game this will stand true.

>

> > Personally i dont want to go back to reaper having good(better) soft defense and kitten damage for a few reasons.

> > - While you will have more damage you can soak you still wont have tools that stop you from taking insane burst from say (a mesmer) or tools that can keep you from being cc'ed like a and knocked around like a pingpong ball.

> > - Fights feel much more unfun when you cant do enough damage to even get your foe near death while they can still shred you.

> > - I dont want another tank meta thats the last thing we need. I personally think the game could do without anymore support / tank metas

> >

> > **I think at best reapers offense is its best defense and thats how it should be.**

>

> i dont deny that.

>

> i just think there are some weaknesses necro got by Intention to create counterplays (less stabi Access, low mobility) and there are some weaknesses that where created around mechanics in 2012/2015. for example the old shroud had 3 % Decay and 7 seconds cooldown when skilled. to prohibit shroud Camping while being able to get healed full life over and over again they developed a shroud that blocks Incoming heal.

Stability access is an issue that should be addressed but understand (pulsing stability or resistance on any profession) is not a healthy gameplay mechanic because it has few counters other than run or hide. Infact necromancer was the only profession that could punish such things and even then it was still annoying to face which is why it was removed globally from any profession that had it. (Except warrior) where its durations have been cut significantly.

Secondly the old shroud lacked alot of power damage as new things came along and when Path of Fire launched Reaper failed to kill due to having low damage low speed and low mobility but at the same time the slower decay did not help you survive against strong professions like warrior, guardian, mesmer, etc. In any cause you survived a few seconds longer.

The increase in decay was not to prohibit camping in shroud. It was in exchange for increased damage which reaper shroud needed it was ideally a step in the right direction. Keep in mind anet has been trying to remove the tank meta that was the start of HoT for some time now because people were generally more unhappy with it than the power burst creep meta that exists now. This change also was incentive to be more offensive than defensive to reward players who played more aggressively rather than defensively.

Honestly we shouldn't be asking for a Reaper shroud fix to decay at this point, we dont need it. I think fixing how life force is generated could address that issue without having to touch the shroud and its an overall much bigger problem to all aspects of necromancer.

While healing in shroud should be addressed (its a death magic issue) there is a good potential trait for healing and sustain in death magics grandmaster ([unholy Sanctuary](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Sanctuary "Unholy Sanctuary")) but its numbers are far too low. That trait should heal roughly for a few hundred hp per second possibly a bit more or less. aka they need to up the base heal by a ton and kill the scaling with healing power so that it cant be abused for broken unlimited sustain.

>

> now we have a way higher Decay and less Access to shroud than in earlier days on reaper and this no heal System while in shroud is overaged imo.

Don't exclude the things we do have now though.

We also have more damage, more personal attack speed, better critical damage, and a more viable power option, the ability to kill just as quick as we are killed. Higher decay can be managed if you make the right plays under the right situation (Necro still has good skills still mitigate this). We cant do anything about access time to shroud... I think maybe reaper at its base trait (shroud knight) should allow for a quicker entry time (7s) over the standard 10 which would easily please alot of people.

I personally think no healing in shroud is fine because there are options for doing this... the issue is that they are currently just bad and outdated. Necro will always be vulnerably to one shot burst regardless of what defenses you add short of a invuln similar to endure pain or something that converts all damage taken to hp or life force.

I think right now before we start comparing necro to warrior so harshly we should look at tools we don't have and possibly compare them to the tools that scholar professions do have and choose what would be (ok) but not broken to add to improve necromancer sustain. (I personally would prefer more mobility (offensive engage blinks) or evades over boons because boon creep is insane right now and needs to be culled (boon beast rangers >_>)

Examples include

- Better boon access / Better boon uptime

- Better Core / Skill evades (More natural access to vigor boon or ways to recover endurance)

- Better but still limited stability uptime (you already addressed this)

- Reliable Engage tools (blinks leaps etc)

But we cant exclude things that necro can do that they cant either

- Boon conversion on massive scale across a plentiful number of builds

- The ability to invest in tanky stats but still hit as though fully invested in offensive stats without a major loss. (this one is major)

Not many professions can get away with dropping a massive chunk of precision and ferocity for tanky stats and still hit hard like reaper does.

- The ability to proc one condition into another consistently

(just to name a few)

Im not saying necro cant use better defenses (even if its done by offense) but i dont think comparing it to warrior even more so spellbreaker so directly is the right way to go about it.

Ive been playing reaper mostly since the first betas of HoT and continued even when reaper was in its bad points (as a power reaper)

Scourge is not my cup of tea, offers no real creativity, and no (real) power option.

I do like to play core but its easily ran over in pvp due to lack of offensive pressure and defensive tools at the same time and its too limited on damage in pve. But it is still fun to play.

Honestly you give a nice numbers break down but your comparison is just....... bad....

I dont specifically understand why you compare necro (reaper) to warrior of any kind to be honest. The better comparisons to make would be to elementalist defenses or mesmer defense as they are also scholar professions, not soldier professions. Warrior will always give necro a hard time and we shouldn't be comparing it to necro simply because its one of the harder matchups that often wins against necro.

You also failed to factor in condition application which plays a big role in necromancer efficiency and sustain regardless of if you play it as power or damage condi. Even with power you still have things like Cripple, Weakness, Chill, (and possibly imobe) to consider.

Personally i dont want to go back to reaper having good(better) soft defense and crap damage for a few reasons.

- While you will have more damage you can soak you still wont have tools that stop you from taking insane burst from say (a mesmer) or tools that can keep you from being cc'ed like a and knocked around like a pingpong ball.

- Fights feel much more unfun when you cant do enough damage to even get your foe near death while they can still shred you.

- I dont want another tank meta thats the last thing we need. I personally think the game could do without anymore support / tank metas

I think at best reapers offense is its best defense and thats how it should be.

Could more things be changed to make this overall better? I'm sure they could.

- A new mechanic on the shout trait wouldn't be so bad

- 2 charges on some shouts wouldn't be so bad

- Having 2 charges on staff marks

- Buffing death magic generally with better numbers and new defense mechanics that didn't exists at the launch of the game (though not so much that everyone uses)

I think anet knows that core necro lacks a role it would ideally be perfect for a sub support / tank role if they properly set some numbers right and made a few traits work strongly with it but not with (reaper / scourge)

One of the problems we have right now is that when anet buffs core (possibly to make core better) it just makes reaper and scourge better leaving core just as lost as it was before. I think that was the main reason we saw core shroud changes over more core trait changes in the last bigger balance update but it was not enough. Anet has worked themselves into a corner where they cant buff any core traits in hopes of making core fit any kind of role without simply power creeping reaper or scourge.

Granted Core necro should have been more stable to start with like warrior, ranger, guardian, and mesmer. Which all have strong cores that their elites stand on.

You need to practice knowing what situations you can and or should or should not go into.

Alot of people get dunked by reaper in a single soul spiral so you assume necro / reaper is an EZ class.

When in fact its not so EZ in the sense that you need good placement have to know what moves you can make and what moves you cant. Making mistakes get you killed fairly quickly with little room for recovery.

The way reaper is currently if you get +1'ed its usually a loss.

If you fight a duelist like others have mentioned and you dont make the right evasive plays at the start of the fight you die.

Overall losing 16 matches does not mean reaper is bad

it means one of 2 things

- 1 your team was bad 16 games in a row and dont understand how to coordinate anything

- 2 your team was not bad but the enemy team was just better than your team and got ahead and snowballed 16 games in a row.

I would encourage you to take a break from reaper and give it another try some time later.

Staff is a good pick on all necro builds but that does not mean its the best pick. Its good utility when you need unblockables / extra lf with the trait / or simply want more aoe or zone control depend on your game mode.

It wont be a Primary damage weapon though you would be better with almost any other weapon combination if you are looking for just more damage.

I dont see much charr in this honestly. While char will use magic they dont really prefer it. I feel like this idea was taken with something else in mind and not in the mind of charr lore. I feel like because you are doing something charr inspired and not picking 1 specific legion (blood, ash, iron) it would have been a bit better if each of the traits (top, middle, bottom) were focused on the separate legions providing different effects based on those legions. The utilities dont really feel charr inspired either i mean "God speed boots" we know how most charr feel about gods to reference something like that just seems out of place in itself.

I feel like alot of the "Charr" theme is missing when it comes to the whole thing overall or its just not matching of the race in general.

I feel like if you didn't start off by saying it was charr theme'ed it would overall make more sene in my mind but none of this seems charr like and it references burning alot which ideally makes me think Flame legion but even then it seems to technologic based for even them as they are generally more about magic and rituals.

Overall it seems very odd that you also have worked in tools that only provide benefits when the user has no boons on them.

Ive tried reading this over a few times and i cant wrap my head around any of it because you tried pass it off as charr themed based but dismissed so much basic stuff about charr in general without working any of it really into elite spec. The most i take from charr is just a few names of traits and the first few lines of the post the rest says nothing about charr to me.

I know alot of people dont like Renegade but its a charr themed trait setup fairly well each row of traits represents one of the 3 high legions in one way or another and the minors some what fill in general things you might expect from charr in general. Honestly this seems more like a semi technological take on warrior from a human or asuran perspective not a charr one.

Boon meta would also make this impossible to play and feel wanted Im also not sure how i feel about giving warrior a ton of weapon buff effects to pass out.

I dont agree that this would over take or come close to giving mesmer a run for its money.

If you want to make it charr themed you need to spread everything out in a way that it fits across the 3 legions or make it simply focused on iron legion which is the more technological legion.

I think you could possibly stand to learn a bit more about charr lore too based on whats here you either don't know enough about the charr or you chose to exclude it for referring something else very heavily. I was excited to see you wrote something in the idea of a charr theme but then disappointed the farther i read into it honestly :c no offense.

> @"Luna.6203" said:

> Whole concept where you need to generate 3 adrenaline bars before u can actually use advantage of this build is wrong.

> In current meta where everyone is super busty but you have to generate 3 bars first.. its not gonna work. Its not good for pvp nor pve because mob die before you generate that mutch adrenaline.

I dont often have an issue generating 3 bars in pve myself but i can see what angle you are coming from with weaker trash mobs.

>

> You cant even use ability like signet of fury to generate adrenaline before combat to use berserker mode immediately becouse it decay right away and i dont even talk it would cost you valuable trait slots where you mostly need condi removal/resist buffs or physical skills or banners...

>

> ...my thought...

>

> Just give us berserker burst abilities permanently. And make berserker mode just offensive buff (maybe some defensive ones if you improve it by certain traits).

That would be interesting actually too having primordial burst at all times as lvl 1 burst but just having the berserk as a booster effect. Even in this case though I still feel like the changes I pointed out still need to apply in some cases (Dead or Alive / Fatal Frenzy / Eternal Champion)

I appreciate your thoughts and ideas

Once again these suggestions are based on things ive noticed from personal experience with the profession as well as playing other professions and looking at how their tools work.

I dont have the most warrior experince but ive been playing guild wars 2 for a long time. Overall I dont understand why berserker has not gotten some good quality of life changes for the better.

Another note is that these changes are focused in more on PvP more than PvE I am aware that PvE Berserker is not particularly in a bad spot at the moment with one or two builds.

To start off berserker lacks potential due to the several cuts its gained in combination to the lack of quality of life it should have gained after the PoF release. Saving 3 bars of Adrenalin for what should be an empowered burst but only having that burst count as 1 proc for relative burst traits such as **(Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire, and Berserker's Power)** is very contradicting and can cause the user to be punished instead of rewarded for opting to use berserker mode over the a standard level 3 weapon burst. (Even more so if the burst miss or are blocked in some way or another.)

## First and for most ##

Burst in berserker mode **should not** be reverted to counting as lvl 3 weapon burst. They should remain as lvl 1 weapon burst. Though **spending 3 (or technically 2)** bars to activate berserk mode which is used for purely offensive potential is considerably lacking in general. The user should not be completely or nearly un rewarded for not being able hit offensive blows if they choose to spend the 3 bars to activate berserk.

If we look at **spell breaker's** full counter, its rewarded for having its full counter proc-ed regardless if it actually lands the counter hit or not. The user is rewarded for simply making use of the defensive portion as is the skills nature to be used as a defensive counter skill and thats all fine and dandy.

So my key point here is why is a pure offensive mechanic in **berserker** its activation of **berserk mode** not rewarded properly for the 3 (Technically 2) bars spent to activate it.

The user should be semi rewarded the moment a they opt to save and use berserker mode over a standard lvl 3 burst as is the skills nature to bolster and boost offensive capability. It should not only reward some one for landing those boosted burst attacks just as full counter still rewards partially without having to land its offensive portion of the skill. Ideally you should feel rewarded using this mode as a unique profession mechanic regardless of if your upgraded burst attacks landing or not.

**Instead the problem is that**

Zerker at its core is weaker core and spell breaker but not from specifically the damage it deals.

It prepares people for big damage with a telegraph, but at the same time it also does some less damage on some burst and gives access to less passive procs or tools to keep offensive pressure.

Here is what I suppose changes to start things off. Lets keep discussion civil if you dont agree just say why if you have ideas share them. If you out right dont agree then just say you dont agree but keep its civil please.

## Lets Talk Shop##

**F2 Berserk**

Now additionally activates burst traits for each bar (Technically 2 bars) consumed **Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power, and other burst related traits** if you opt to use those traits.

Note the reason I say 2 bars instead of 3 is because while you do have to save 3 bars to activate berserk it technically gives you one back to use a burst right away if you wish thus technically the number of bars consumed is 2.

**Adrenal health procs 2 stacks

Cleansing Ire removes 2 conditions

Berserkers power procs 2 stacks

Building Momentum grants 1 hit of endurance

etc..**

##Next##

I want to move on to a few traits that are heavily crippled or lack the fitting thematic match of a berserk warrior that this spec should offer.

**Dead or Alive**

Make it more in line with the theme of a berserk warrior. This skill should ideally be like a rage inspired second wind. It makes no sense for this trait to only work in berserk mode when berserk mode is limited to a small window. IT should be able to activate at any time. Unlike a Soul beast's beast mode which have a similar trait that can save them from a fatal blow. The difference being that they can remain in beast mode for as long as they choose to. In their case it makes sense to only have a similar trait activate only when they are in that boosted mode.

This trait should activate if the player opts to use it regardless of being in or out of berserk mode.

**Outside of berserk mode:**

It heals the user and forces them into berserk mode regardless if it was on cool down or they have the Adrenalin stored to activate it.

**In berserk mode:**

Dead or Alive heals slightly more health, refreshes primordial burst skills, resets berserk mode duration.

**Fatal Frenzy**

This trait only has use when in berserker mode which last 15 seconds and its considerably under only having use for the first 3 seconds of the mechanic activation other wise. This trait is a prime example of being under rewarded for the use of profession mechanic.

Its one thing to have defensive boons pulse such **(as stability and resistance)** consistently for long periods of time but offensive ones are currently ok. (Even Reaper currently has pulsing quickness and other game tools across other professions have pulsing might or fury here and there.)

I propose that swiftness and quickness and fury get their durations cut to be matched to nice 3 seconds.

**These boons now pulse once every 3 seconds for a total of 5 pulses over the total duration of berserk mode.**

Because this trait has no function outside of berserk mode its power potential in berserk mode should be throughout the course of it not just at the start of it.

**Eternal Champion**

No real issues here just that it should **pulse its 3 might generation once every 3 seconds 5 times over the duration of berserk mode**

This should not be a problem considering magebane tether reveals, acts as leashing pressure tool, and only requires you to spend 10 points of Adrenalin to gain access to with a slightly shorter cooldown while pulsing might at a much faster rate.

##Closing##

I feel like these changes would be a good start to getting berserker back on its feet and feeling proper stronger than core while in berserker mode but not specifically stronger when out of berserk mode.

It would reward the use of berserk mode moderately as an offensive tool/ mechanic even if the burst attacks miss, just as spell breakers full counter is reward for simply being used as a defensive tool regardless if the offensive attack lands or not.

Being able to activate some passive power or sustain procs without over rewarding from old days of lvl 3 spam burst attacks.

I dont think anything in core warrior really needs to change to make berserker better because currently core is at a base stronger than berserker as it is Even while its in berserk mode

Please remember im looking at this from more of pvp perspective and not that of a pve perspective.

How about no.... reaper had pulsing stability for a while and anet removed so did berserkers eternal champion trait and that got culled too.

Anet has clearly made their choice that **pulsing** defensive boons such as resistance and stability should be rather limited in duration if anything cut at all out of the game

I was sad to see it go from reaper but im not going to beg for it to come back at this point.

Pulsing offensive boons **(might, quickness, fury)** seem to be ok in their eyes right now (I think the game needs more of them infrequently) But i absolutely **DO NOT** support pulsing **resistance** or **stability** on any profession at this point in a pvp situation.

Anet has told us before that **all professions** use magic (even core warrior) they just do it it different ways

If you think being that mobile in heavy armor, being able to constantly supercharge and release adrenaline, and recover wounds at a rapid rate is not the use of magic you might need to think out of the box a bit more.

Core **Warrior** has the power to inspire others with their energy, resist dangerous conditions like burning, and completely ignore pain all with the use of magic.

Even **Engi.** could be considered to use magic to bolster their intellect over the tools they create and use. The power to modify their own inner magic through the use of devices rather than using their own will to modify it like other professions.

All professions use magic

It will still be used by most people as the other 2 traits in pvp are very underpowered

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> I was expecting the secondary <50% effect of the skill to get removed, not this.

This is something of what I would have expected as well. But i guess they want to allow its utility to remain strong while lowering its instant strike impact.

> @"Helly.2597" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Helly.2597" said:

> > > I don't really understand this nerf. I don't think the dmg is what makes this trait strong. It already has competition with the +20% dmg trait. But hey I'm sure anet knows what's best for their game kappa.

> >

> > I dont think the damage alone made it strong, i feel like it was more to do with the utility it also provides & and i dont think it was anywhere near the same weight of Close to death or Signets of suffering in pvp modes.

> >

> > Infact in pvp this grand master in spite heavily outweighs the other 2 choices for several good reasons. The 20% damage boost is not very noticeable under 50% on pvp foes not to mention its not un common for alot of professions to out evade or avoid necors damage keeping their health high for some time. The main negative to this trait is that you get 0 benefit from it till your foe hits 50% and usually if you can get them to 50% without the trait you can kill them regardless. Extra damage does not make it anywhere near significantly easier at that point.

> >

> > Signets of suffering is only for those who use signets and considering the majority of the community hates each signet in one way or another most people don't consider them viable to very many builds and this is likely their biggest drawback in pvp. This makes the Signet trait have even less weight than Close to Death in its current form.

> >

> > Then you have Spiteful Spirit

> > - Has use all times regardless of your foes hp percentage unlike close to death

> > - Has bonus use under certain hp percentage

> > - Moderate extra splash damage on shroud entry with boon conversion providing more utility for all the boon based builds in the game right now

> > - Fits into a wide verity of builds and almost always provides a benefit for those builds unlike signet builds

> >

> > In all realistic and honest sensibility Spiteful Spirit easily out weighs the other 2 traits in pvp.

> > It fits well in almost any build, can be used at all points of a fight not just under 50%, provides boon conversion which aids as a important part of necromancer efficiency as well as necromancer sustain ideally this trait was (excuse me) still is the best pvp grandmaster you can take in spite.

> >

> > In pve the roles get reversed however Close to death easily out weighs Spiteful spirt and even Signets of suffering can be of more use than Spiteful Spirit

> >

> > Once again i dont under stand the reason for such a heavy nerf considering all the other crazy things in the game right now, but i don't agree with the idea that this trait really competed with the other 2 traits in pvp because it really didn't because it was a no brainer choice to grab unless you were going for something out of the box.

> > It also was not purely good based on only its damage which is why I think people will continue to use it even after this nerf.

>

> I won't disagree with your assessment here. The nerf isn't going to make people not take it (since it was never about the dmg).

>

> PvP wise its definitely the stronger trait, but WvW close to death is a viable choice for power scourge since you won't always be close enough to hit people with your entry and the longer shroud CD. Personally I roam so I always take spiteful but I can understand why a large portion of scourges wouldn't take it for group play.

To be fair power scourge is by all means an "out of the box" idea created from the results of many many nerfs, but it works in some situations apparently XD

> @"Helly.2597" said:

> I don't really understand this nerf. I don't think the dmg is what makes this trait strong. It already has competition with the +20% dmg trait. But hey I'm sure anet knows what's best for their game kappa.

I dont think the damage alone made it strong, i feel like it was more to do with the utility it also provides & and i dont think it was anywhere near the same weight of Close to death or Signets of suffering in pvp modes.

Infact in pvp this grand master in spite heavily outweighs the other 2 choices for several good reasons. The 20% damage boost is not very noticeable under 50% on pvp foes not to mention its not un common for alot of professions to out evade or avoid necors damage keeping their health high for some time. The main negative to this trait is that you get 0 benefit from it till your foe hits 50% and usually if you can get them to 50% without the trait you can kill them regardless. Extra damage does not make it anywhere near significantly easier at that point.

Signets of suffering is only for those who use signets and considering the majority of the community hates each signet in one way or another most people don't consider them viable to very many builds and this is likely their biggest drawback in pvp. This makes the Signet trait have even less weight than Close to Death in its current form.

Then you have Spiteful Spirit

- Has use all times regardless of your foes hp percentage unlike close to death

- Has bonus use under certain hp percentage

- Moderate extra splash damage on shroud entry with boon conversion providing more utility for all the boon based builds in the game right now

- Fits into a wide verity of builds and almost always provides a benefit for those builds unlike signet builds

In all realistic and honest sensibility Spiteful Spirit easily out weighs the other 2 traits in pvp.

It fits well in almost any build, can be used at all points of a fight not just under 50%, provides boon conversion which aids as a important part of necromancer efficiency as well as necromancer sustain ideally this trait was (excuse me) still is the best pvp grandmaster you can take in spite.

In pve the roles get reversed however Close to death easily out weighs Spiteful spirt and even Signets of suffering can be of more use than Spiteful Spirit

Once again i dont under stand the reason for such a heavy nerf considering all the other crazy things in the game right now, but i don't agree with the idea that this trait really competed with the other 2 traits in pvp because it really didn't because it was a no brainer choice to grab unless you were going for something out of the box.

It also was not purely good based on only its damage which is why I think people will continue to use it even after this nerf.

I cant understand the reason behind this change I suppose because if offers moderate instant burst + boon conversation with a 2x as manny boons getting hit under a certain health percentage which can be devastating under some situations.

Although its generally the best pvp option which might be why. Perhaps they wanted to make its weight closer to the other grand master 2 trait options. So rather than boosting the other 2 traits they dropped this one down to match them.

I don't know.

I don't think it will change too much you lose from upfront burst damage but overall its still the best spite grandmaster you can take and people will still continue to take it if not any thing for the instant boon converts and punishment.

Cant really complain too much with all the buffs that have hit core necro recently this change is not all that bad Its better they nip small things like this that people will undoubtedly still use to balance things out before they start reverting more recent changes which would be undoubtedly much worse and far more devastating. I doubt that people will notice the the strike reduction too much as this trait acts as more utility against boon'ed foes more than a major spike of damage.

> @"killfil.3472" said:

> Core necro IS in a fairly bad position compared to both E-specs.

> after nearly 4 years it got some buffs that are still clearly not enough to allow it to even keep up.

> I find your choice to play it in ranked questionable, but bold.

> Respect brother.

Dont you play core in ranked some times too :# :# :# :# LOL

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> What do you all think of these options?

> 1. Melee AoE bleed, CC, block, tank

This seems to close to what possibly reaper was in its early days

> 2. Ranged, single-target, boon support; e.g., AoE protection and condi-to-boon conversion?

> 3. Selfish booniemancer where Necro converts conditions to boons and can "steal" conditions from allies to convert to more boons for itself.

Both these ideas are a no, we don't need more specs that act as the games pvp counter to boon spam but cant be used in pve because half the traits require your foes to have boons or your allies to have conditions (that don't get clensed) to make a benefit.

We also don't more of anything (classed as a support) cause they its proved to difficult to balance often having way too much damage or having high damage while having wayyyyy too much support.

Selfish boons necro could be a thing only if it does it without having to use conversions to get the boons like every other profession can....

although i prefer that boons get culled across the board honestly.

I say scrapper or tempest

Renegade could be good with some tweeks to make the spirit utilities either more impactful on use or less vunlerable and it could be very solid.

A few weapon skills need tweeking and maybe 1 or 2 traits need a tweek too but other than that its not as bad as most people consider it to be.

I don't think anet has time or resources to be wasting making purely new weapon base types.

Everyone is screaming great axe but realistically that wont happen.

I think the best we can hope for would be new e specs that maybe give weapon skins, profession mechanic abilities, or utility skills similar to new weapons you are looking at but visually i doubt we will see new weapon types as base weapons.

Like no one here said **"cannon"** as a weapon but **holosmith** has a cannon for its elite skill

**Reaper** has a scythe for its shroud attacks

**Engi** and its tool kits which contain different weapons out of the norm.

I think we can expect to possibly see more things like the above on other elite specs in the future.

If warrior gets a great axe it will likely be locked behind some mechanic on its profession bar or something and coded with the script of great sword / hammer despite it looking like a great axe.

Because anet started this path so far its ideally better if they hold to it and build weapons into profession elite specs rather than trying to make a new weapon type that can fit across several professions. Take that new weapon you want and make it into a skill or several skills, or transform ability that can easily be represented or coded with an existing base weapon as its frame.

We are more likely to see things like.

**Warrior Elite spec : Barbarian**

First trait

**F1 Primal Instinct** - Lose access to standard burst attacks and gain access to "Barbaric Fury"

**Barbaric Fury** Use adrenaline to push your inner strength and draw your **'Great Axe'** gaining new skills and abilities, Adrenaline drains over time.

Necro possibly getting kits that equip vials or something

Rangers with a execution style spear throwing elite's / utilities

Again these are just made up examples of what i think we are likely to see something similar to over just the creation of new weapons. I feel like this is anets best way of doing this without having to over invest int dozens of new weapon skins, renders, skills, not to mention adding 1 new weapon means they have to add several new weapons because obviously not every profession will get access to just that 1 weapon if only 1 got added. Its overall alot more work and thus alot more unlikely.

> @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > > > We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1,210 (3.0)?

> > > > > Number of Targets: 5

> > > > > Shroud Recharge Reduced on Critical Hit: 2s

> > > > > Life Force Gain on Critical Hit: 15%

> > > > > Combo Finisher: Whirl

> > > > > Range: 170

> > > > >

> > > > > Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

> > > > >

> > > > > EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

> > > >

> > > > This is too situational to realistically i dont see the use of having shroud recharge reduced with this skill its realistically not something we need.

> > > > We currently have 2 ways of cutting shroud skill cd via trats ideally its realistically not needed for pve

> > > > If you are talking shroud entry no one will like this for pvp not only do you need to land a slow skill to get it it also needs to crit for a minimal 2s cd of shroud entry.

> > > >

> > > > Why not just make it so necro can perform their own rotations without spamming the skill. Reward for landing the skill at all times not just below 50% Literally just remove the cd reset from Grave Digger it and give the Necro a new effect on hit which allows them to continue the rotation as they see fit.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > New effect "Lethality" has been added to the game

> > > > Triggers upon successful hit of grave digger

> > > > Above 50% Lethality (6s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 5%

> > > > Below 50% - 15% Lethality (12s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 15%

> > > > Cd reset under 50% has been removed.

> > > >

> > > > Side note.... grave digger actually has nice sound effects if you have a good sound system to enjoy it ;) Its just less enjoyable when spammed every other second.

> > >

> > > Of course Shroud entry, not each skill in shroud. I'd feel bad for people in PvP if it weren't for the one shot and condi bomb meta that runs rampant. Having 30k HP and being killed instantly before you can touch Shroud unless you spec into it as a stun break or automatic on near death is hardly overpowered. As I said, yeah, on critical might be something that needs to change, but the reduction of shroud entry time is a big one I need to contest. Reapers rely heavily on Reaper Shroud, especially with the changes that made it so much better than just spamming Gravedigger. Giving the Reaper a way to re-enter Reaper Shroud faster if used correctly is important to reinforcing the elite's identity and strength. The cooldown reduction to Reaper's Shroud could be any number of triggers on Gravedigger from on critical, to hitting a low health target, or even if you're above a certain life force threshold. It is a point of contest that I will hold firm on, however.

> >

> > Its nice to know you are looking at this from the pvp perspective but let me bring up a few points of why your idea wont help.

> > - 1 if you are getting nuked for 30k damage nothing you do to change shroud cooldown entry will help you here. If you take 30k damage you will take 30k damage.

> >

> > - 2 you are locking the idea of reducing the entry to shroud on one of the slowest skills in the game which has one of the biggest tells. Not to mention you need to put your face in danger to land said skill in people have plenty of time to interrupt you and burst you down

> >

> > - 3 What profession nukes 30k hp in condition damage in a instant??? I cant think of a single one that does this. Power mesmer can spike you for that much in about 1.5 seconds in the perfect situation but not condition mesmer or firebrand or any condition build for that matter can do this without you seeing the damage coming.

> >

> > Till recently reaper end game dps relied heavily on grave digger spam not reaper shroud which is why people want it to change. You really didnt go into shroud under 50% unless you missed a grave digger because it dealt more damage than shroud attacks and for before the quickness buff to RO it was dealing roughly the same damage if not more than a full shroud attack chain 2 grave diggers dealt more damage than a soul spiral and a single grave digger delt more than reaper skill 2 and 5 even at the lower hp thresholds.

> > Now reaper shroud has higher ferocity in it vs out of it due to some core changes as well which makes it a proper sustained dps tool over Grave digger and while grave digger is still a great option when life force starts to run low shroud when traited properly can now out damage it spamming it via higher critical damage.

> >

> > This is why i propose my idea of just a effect damage increase allowing players to play their own rotations including rotations in or out of shroud over having to spam GD. Realistically in pve we dont need a shorter cooldown on shroud, would be nice, yes it would, do we need it, no not really. In pvp yes it would be helpful but then you have to try to land a super slow grave digger to get it which might be a bit clunky in design and i dont feel that giving up the reset functionality on GD is worth 2 seconds off shroud entry. I would personally rather keep it spammable over that when looking at all gamemodes pvp included

> >

> > I know should entry reduction is something poeple have been wanting back for some time now but i think anet can find another way to do that my idea would be to make shroud knight (the trait that gives you reaper shroud) reduce the entry time at base, Or make shouts reduce entry time on use when you take the trait "Augury of Death" over the crappy and badly designed life sihpon heal

> >

> > >

> > > EDIT: Making your Shroud a stun break requires giving up 300 Ferocity and 33% crit chance in Shroud. Having it automatically activate when you're about to die requires running Death Magic. Either choice would lower your damage by quite a bit.

> >

> > Im not sure what this has to do with anything of the discussion. Being stunned does not stop you from entering shroud regardless of if your stun gets broken or not. Its instant meaning it can be activated at any time be it stunned, feared, knocked down, or mid cast of another skill. It is technically your job to manage when you think you can sustain for those 10 seconds without shroud and simply cutting it by 2 seconds (if you land a grave digger) wont help you. All you will find yourself doing is trying to go for GD hits more often and missing more often or being blown up just as much by that supposed "30k" damage.

> >

>

> Condition bombing is less about sudden death but more about sudden unmanageable incoming damage. Most of the problem is that Necromancers do not have many effective ways of removing conditions that don't require a dedicated weapon for it (Dagger/Staff 4 which are both transfers that require an enemy) or several dedicated traits. Sure, there is Consume Conditions (a PvP favorite of mine), but the other utility skills are far from effective. Well of Power won't cleanse a properly set up condition bomb before irreparable damage is done, Plague Signet compounds the issue by transferring conditions from allies to yourself and only really has great synergy with condition transferring minions, "Suffer!" has a limit of one condition per target limiting its use in 1v1s, and this leaves only Scourge with considerable defense against conditions through traits. And beyond all of this is the baseline issue that PvP combat in GW2 is currently far too full of burst damage and spikes.

Burst damage spikes for one thing is far more healthy than super tanks that never die. Thats why they are trying so hard not to repeat what was the HoT meat early on in the HoT season. Its not fun being spiked for all your health but its even less fun when when you start to come to the realization that you cant kill another person on your own or with a +1 or +2 in some instances.

I dont agree that any profession should have 20k+ damage burst though i feel like burst of 10k-15k is perfectly healthy though in pvp. (not counting wvw)

On your topic of condition bombing. Honestly i find condition management to be harder to manage on any other profession but necromancer if i had to be perfectly honest with you. You do have plenty of options generally where as other professions might not in their common builds, although maybe with Ranger might the only exception ( i think they get too much for free right now (worse than mirage)) Necro does have good condi removal options I never feel per say gated into a certain weapon just to have condition cleanse. If i use a staff its because i need aoe pressure the condition removal on staff 4 is just a plus on top for me. With dagger 4 if i take off hand dagger i generally want the blind more than the condition removal. (that said i dont run off hand dagger much)

I personally dont like scourge its too different of a concept that keeps me drawn into necro and it does not feel like an alternate form of necro to me it feels like its own profession. And i like my shrouds.... :astonished:

>

> I honestly forgot you could enter Shroud while crowd controlled due to the amount of time I've spent recently as Scourge trying to find a fun support build, so thank you for bringing that up. True, locking the 2s Shroud reduction to Gravedigger would work well in PvE but not so much in PvE, but giving Reaper a 7-8s Shroud cooldown baseline would have everyone else up in arms (not that I'm against the idea). However, on that end I'm not sure I like your replacement idea, so I propose a replacement to my own idea. Gravedigger could lose its cooldown reduction below 50% and gain either a burst of life force gain on targets below 50% or increased critical severity on targets below 50%. On the topic of "Augury of Death", honestly it shows a design flaw in the Reaper itself. The Reaper is designed to take on a large number of targets, but that's simply not possible in PvP due to the lack of survivability Necromancers have as far as having a toolkit that includes more than a big HP pool. But that's a discussion for another topic. I will update the opening post.

But its not really needed in PvE or so i dont feel like it is.. That said its fine to disagree with my idea nothing wrong with that at all i just wanted to go more in depth about why i wrote out my idea the way i did. We can agree not go disagree on each others ideas thats what this is all about after all :+1:

In the case of augury of death i feel like they just didn't have a good mechanic idea for it so life siphon thrown in because why not. It is one of the few traits if anything possibly the only trait left in the reaper line that really needs a rework along with some of the shouts themselves.

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> A moving field just like tides if time. Slow enough to only fear once naturally or only fear once but the farther it travels the longer the fear up to 2-3s at max range.

****!!!!

That would be a good idea too crap i never thought about that.

> @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

> > >

> > > 1,210 (3.0)?

> > > Number of Targets: 5

> > > Shroud Recharge Reduced on Critical Hit: 2s

> > > Life Force Gain on Critical Hit: 15%

> > > Combo Finisher: Whirl

> > > Range: 170

> > >

> > > Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

> > >

> > > EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

> >

> > This is too situational to realistically i dont see the use of having shroud recharge reduced with this skill its realistically not something we need.

> > We currently have 2 ways of cutting shroud skill cd via trats ideally its realistically not needed for pve

> > If you are talking shroud entry no one will like this for pvp not only do you need to land a slow skill to get it it also needs to crit for a minimal 2s cd of shroud entry.

> >

> > Why not just make it so necro can perform their own rotations without spamming the skill. Reward for landing the skill at all times not just below 50% Literally just remove the cd reset from Grave Digger it and give the Necro a new effect on hit which allows them to continue the rotation as they see fit.

> >

> >

> > New effect "Lethality" has been added to the game

> > Triggers upon successful hit of grave digger

> > Above 50% Lethality (6s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 5%

> > Below 50% - 15% Lethality (12s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 15%

> > Cd reset under 50% has been removed.

> >

> > Side note.... grave digger actually has nice sound effects if you have a good sound system to enjoy it ;) Its just less enjoyable when spammed every other second.

>

> Of course Shroud entry, not each skill in shroud. I'd feel bad for people in PvP if it weren't for the one shot and condi bomb meta that runs rampant. Having 30k HP and being killed instantly before you can touch Shroud unless you spec into it as a stun break or automatic on near death is hardly overpowered. As I said, yeah, on critical might be something that needs to change, but the reduction of shroud entry time is a big one I need to contest. Reapers rely heavily on Reaper Shroud, especially with the changes that made it so much better than just spamming Gravedigger. Giving the Reaper a way to re-enter Reaper Shroud faster if used correctly is important to reinforcing the elite's identity and strength. The cooldown reduction to Reaper's Shroud could be any number of triggers on Gravedigger from on critical, to hitting a low health target, or even if you're above a certain life force threshold. It is a point of contest that I will hold firm on, however.

Its nice to know you are looking at this from the pvp perspective but let me bring up a few points of why your idea wont help.

- 1 if you are getting nuked for 30k damage nothing you do to change shroud cooldown entry will help you here. If you take 30k damage you will take 30k damage.

- 2 you are locking the idea of reducing the entry to shroud on one of the slowest skills in the game which has one of the biggest tells. Not to mention you need to put your face in danger to land said skill in people have plenty of time to interrupt you and burst you down

- 3 What profession nukes 30k hp in condition damage in a instant??? I cant think of a single one that does this. Power mesmer can spike you for that much in about 1.5 seconds in the perfect situation but not condition mesmer or firebrand or any condition build for that matter can do this without you seeing the damage coming.

Till recently reaper end game dps relied heavily on grave digger spam not reaper shroud which is why people want it to change. You really didnt go into shroud under 50% unless you missed a grave digger because it dealt more damage than shroud attacks and for before the quickness buff to RO it was dealing roughly the same damage if not more than a full shroud attack chain 2 grave diggers dealt more damage than a soul spiral and a single grave digger delt more than reaper skill 2 and 5 even at the lower hp thresholds.

Now reaper shroud has higher ferocity in it vs out of it due to some core changes as well which makes it a proper sustained dps tool over Grave digger and while grave digger is still a great option when life force starts to run low shroud when traited properly can now out damage it spamming it via higher critical damage.

This is why i propose my idea of just a effect damage increase allowing players to play their own rotations including rotations in or out of shroud over having to spam GD. Realistically in pve we dont need a shorter cooldown on shroud, would be nice, yes it would, do we need it, no not really. In pvp yes it would be helpful but then you have to try to land a super slow grave digger to get it which might be a bit clunky in design and i dont feel that giving up the reset functionality on GD is worth 2 seconds off shroud entry. I would personally rather keep it spammable over that when looking at all gamemodes pvp included

I know should entry reduction is something poeple have been wanting back for some time now but i think anet can find another way to do that my idea would be to make shroud knight (the trait that gives you reaper shroud) reduce the entry time at base, Or make shouts reduce entry time on use when you take the trait "Augury of Death" over the crappy and badly designed life sihpon heal

>

> EDIT: Making your Shroud a stun break requires giving up 300 Ferocity and 33% crit chance in Shroud. Having it automatically activate when you're about to die requires running Death Magic. Either choice would lower your damage by quite a bit.

Im not sure what this has to do with anything of the discussion. Being stunned does not stop you from entering shroud regardless of if your stun gets broken or not. Its instant meaning it can be activated at any time be it stunned, feared, knocked down, or mid cast of another skill. It is technically your job to manage when you think you can sustain for those 10 seconds without shroud and simply cutting it by 2 seconds (if you land a grave digger) wont help you. All you will find yourself doing is trying to go for GD hits more often and missing more often or being blown up just as much by that supposed "30k" damage.

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> A circle would indeed improve the skill alot but would also be problematic in terms of balancing. The skill would AT LEAST have to lose its ground target functionality as otherwise it would be way to easy to trap targets into the ring and burst them afterwards (don't just think about 1v1 but also about team fight synergies at this point!)

>

I dont feel this way for a few reasons but i can see where you are coming from.

Reason number 1:

Even in a team fight Once a person cross from the inside of the ring they likely wont be trapped as the fear causes them to leave it and only braindead people will walk back into the wall again in any case its not really a case of being trapped unlike some skills such as Ele air staff 5 which applies a hard stun for crossing its line. Or guardian hammer which constantly knocks back to the inside of the ring.

Reason number 2:

Fear is a condition and a control effect and thus it has more counter-play than other control effects such as condition removal, resistance, stability, and break stun.

Reason number 3:

The skill current is up for discussion because its it lacks use and potential in terms team fight synergies. For every fight that it works wonders there are 4-5 fights where it was totally useless in terms of effectiveness.

Reason number 4: Realistically even if its ground target ring or a ring that spawns around the caster most people will walk right through it anyways un harmed. Boon spam is very real in the game right now.

> It's already a decent skill on point and in large scale WvW. It falls behind in open field PvP where it is easy to avoid and is only good to counter D/D condi thieves and power shiros as these two need to melee you while not having access to stability. The wall interrupting Death Blossom, Dagger Storm and Unrelenting Assault is pretty cool.

Well a ring would generally be better for all modes regardless of how which mode the skill excels in currently the goal should be to make skills better for all modes of the game. About the only mode a ring would not help in is in pve and honestly nothing changed about this skill in the form of a wall or ring will make it better in pve sadly. But luckily pve has plenty of good strong options already and fear is not as big of a thing for survival in pve like it is in pvp modes.

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I dont know the wall does have some benefits that a aoe shout fear would not have.

> >

> > The biggest one being you cant dodge through it without stability. Its one of the few skills that stops what alot of other skill would normally i frame through.

> > I feel like the best thing it could be turned into is just a circle aoe ground target that way they have the options to stay in it and not get feared, walk out and get feared, soak the fear by resistance or stab to walk in and out.

> > It retains its wall functionality simply changing its shape would make it alot more viable It does not need to be much bigger than say any common well skill etc.

> >

> > Change the name from "Spectral Wall" to "Haunted Ground" >_>

>

> I like this idea too. The fear will need to fear them back into the circle though if they try crossing without proper stab or resist.

>

I dont fee like it would need to do so but it could depending on how you uses it. I think if you put it on some one and they are smart enough to run into the far side of the wall (away from your character) which fears them out of the ring thats perfectly fair play.

If they tried to exit from the side or the front of the wall or ring rather then yes they would be feared back into it based on your position. I would like it to be a solid skill not something thats automatic gg when you plop it down and the mirage who runs no break stun cries about later when they cant mirage cloak through it (Because spectral wall does hit through things like that.)

> Must have a fast fast time too.

Keep it the same as the current cast time for spectral wall and it would be fine.

>

> Can already imagine trapping foes in the ring and going Reaper shroud on them.

Yes the skill would be strong its simply not strong as a wall that only fears when some one touches it.

Now if the wall had another functionality like stopping projectiles it might be ok as is but considering people can often choose not to walk into it its not very good. Usually the only way i get people to walk into it is if they evade into it by mistake (common with sword dagger thief, sword rev, etc.

I want something quick with high dps and good mobility for once.

Elite specs are about providing new ways to play what about something with blinks, or super speed, perhaps even something with minimal stealth access not held back by life force if that is even the way it has to be.

Key points i look for in a elite spec that we dont see on any form of necro so far (not that it has to be all of the following listed)

- Super speed, we gotta go fast at some point if reaper got this i would be satisfied on this key point

- Blinks, we need the mobility to get in or get out

- Stealth, This is a questionable idea but its "DIFFERENT" and thats what elite specs are all about

- Evades, Be it on skills or utility and traits.... I cant speak on this one enough when will necro finally get its own vigor access or some form of utility or trait that grants endurance recovery.

- More traits that work with and without boons. Traits that can either steal boons (not corrupt or rip them) But also deal increased damage or apply bonus effects against targets that dont have boons. (So the traits are usable in pve just as much as a pvp setting)

Lastly what i don't want personally...

Is something that follows scourge format, that was a horrid idea to break down shroud skills and spread them out like that not to mention it lacks the proper feel of what draws me personally to necromancer. Not to mention it makes too many traits in core lines too clunky which leads to them needing their own set of rules when used with said e spec profession skills.

I also dont want anything support focused cause thats the hardest thing anet struggles to balance is "Support" In PoF release way too many elite specs were called out as "Supports" WE DONT NEED THIS MANY! at best we could do with 1 or 2 per xpack release not 3-4. (Even more so when the dps side of them turns out to be scaled super high and the support side is also scaled very high at the same time. )