ZDragon.3046

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

>

> >

> > Thats not an issue that removing this rune will slove. Either you still would or wouldn't get the stomp and thats a fact. If stomping is an issue that needs to be looked into thats fine but simply removing this rune wont make you feel all that much better. As i said its depended on the person who went down to have the rune not the person doing the rez which makes it a bit more fair imo. Its not something that some one who runs a power rez build an force on every person they touch.

>

> Well the problem is that the rune is really good. 20% extra healing (that also works when overhealed) is great. Having the you get ressed 20% better as an added bonus makes it so that cleaving gets 20% harder against a lot of people. Mercy runes are a bigger problem yes, stomping sucking is another problem, but this rune makes cleaving even worse than it was. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this becomes the go to rune in WvW for a very large amount of builds, even if the ressing interaction gets removed. The only feature that makes mercy less of a problem than it could be (still a big problem tho) is that at least it is utterly useless when you're not ressing.

I still don't see the problem here its not effective healing its barrier aka damage medigation. Its not getting Rez'ed 20% better because if you are at 80% hp and have 20% barrier on the remaining portion of your health bar you do not simply stand up. Standing up 20% faster would be a 20% better rez. I suppose they could make it so that the barrier effect does not trigger from the downed state in which case the rune becomes totally useless because then at that point 20% for in combat purposes (in most situations) its not very effective. ITs very very VERY minor sustain improvement. I think the whole panic over people whining about the rune granting barrier while beeing Rez'ed will blow over and is not in need of a nerf due to how weak the rune is at pretty much any other time (not counting scourge abrasive grit)

>

> > The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain. This keeps the rune and the build still viable and usable without compeltely destorying the rune / necromancer at a core aspect / or scourge anymore than it already is. The reason i say this is because scourge could not apply barrier too frequently to start with which is why the trait never was given a internal cooldown. Simply because there were no means to rapidly apply new barrier so often. Even if they give it a short icd if a scourge uses the trait without the rune they are likely to be un effected by the icd (based on how a lot of scourge's play)

>

> Quickest does not necessarily mean best. If abrasive grit is overpowered on its own then maybe that should get nerfed (I wouldn't mind really), but nerfing it to fix a broken interaction with a rune is a very ugly and lazy fix.

What did you think i was talking about nerfing? Not the rune, but yes the trait **Abrasive Grit** simply needs a internal cooldown. Its the **best** and **quickest** way to fix this issue. Plus it wont even hurt scourge if they used the trait before or not. As they cant spam barrier without the rune thus it never needed a icd till now. I dont think the rune is terribly over powered in any other form except with abrasive grit after testing it. 20% is not that much. It only seems like much when getting rez'ed because of how fast rez healing populates healing ticks. In truth of the barrier generated in a second can be knocked off in a single swing by most professions and still deal considerable amounts of damage to the health under that barrier.

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> > The only real issue with this rune is abrasive grit and its unseen (and surely un intended) interaction with the barrier gain frequency. Simply giving it a short icd will balance the issue. And drop it from being god teir to being more fair ish as a build.

>

> The rune isn't any worse than mercy really. But mercy is a pretty horrible baseline to have as it is a rune that should not exist. The problem with stomping someone being power ressed is that the stomp is slower than the actual ress if you don't get interrupted. (worse if the person has ress traits etc). This rune could make the issue bigger as basically +20% is a very good rune for general use.

Thats not an issue that removing this rune will slove. Either you still would or wouldn't get the stomp and thats a fact. If stomping is an issue that needs to be looked into thats fine but simply removing this rune wont make you feel all that much better. As i said its depended on the person who went down to have the rune not the person doing the rez which makes it a bit more fair imo. Its not something that some one who runs a power rez build an force on every person they touch.

>

> Wouldnt simply making it so that abrasive grit only procs from barriers that are like 300 or bigger be an easier fix? Not that I'd mind an abrasive grit nerf either way.

And no it would be easier just to give it a internal cooldown and keeps it consistent with other trait coding. There is not any trait that list barrier by the numeric value that triggers something else to happen.

The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain. This keeps the rune and the build still viable and usable without compeltely destorying the rune / necromancer at a core aspect / or scourge anymore than it already is. The reason i say this is because scourge could not apply barrier too frequently to start with which is why the trait never was given a internal cooldown. Simply because there were no means to rapidly apply new barrier so often. Even if they give it a short icd if a scourge uses the trait without the rune they are likely to be un effected by the icd (based on how a lot of scourge's play)

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > The problem with the broken interaction of rune of sanctuary:

> > >

> > > First what it does: gives you barrier for 20% of the amount you are healed.

> > >

> > > Broken interaction:

> > > 1.Use scourge with abrasive grit

> > > 2.take bloodmagic vampiric presence

> > > 3. Take rune of sanctuary

> > >

> > > Results in:

> > > Get 2 might per hit and cleanse a condition.

> > > So hitting 5 targets will give 10might and cleanse 5 conditions.

> > >

> > > The problem here. Anet will just address this issue with giving an ice on abrasive grit.

> > >

> > > That's for 100% sure.

> > > Which is definetly not the right way to balance.

> > > Cause it's not abrasive grit, which is broken. It's the rune

> > >

> >

> > I think the best way to nerf the Sanctuary Scourge is to make it so Vampiric and Vampiric Aura no longer proc the rune. On other classes, the rune is fine, and since it doesn't proc on the Regeneration boon, it's clear that it can have certain heals edited out for balance. Scourge just has a weak trait in normal play that happens to become completely busted in this particular circumstance.

>

> it procs on beeing healed in downstate. Literally impossible to cleave anything even in 1v2

Thats 100% not true either lol. To be fair if you couldn't cleave them down with the rune you wouldn't have cleaved the body being rezed even if they had not had it. It just means you made a bad play or you simply cant out damage the healing being done. Plenty of times yesterday i saw several people get cleaved down with the rune on.

Also consider this. Stomping exists for a reason. The game never intended for you to simply always cleave a body down once a player goes down. Im not sure where players get this false sense of security that the only way is to cleave the body down. If anything you can at least just change targets and burst the person doing the rez'ing which will result in them being cc'ed stopping the rez or possibly over committing to it which can result in both players going down.

Also consider that the game has updated since launch but stomping has not. The only improvement we have seen to stomping is the daredevil elite skill which finishes the person instantly. IT could mean we simply need to see more skills like this or that maybe your set up is not good for stopping some one who runs a power healing setup.

If the barrier generation was dependent on the Person rez'ing to wear it (meaning they force the barrier on to anyone they touch) then I would consider it op. But its actually the other way around. The person who goes down needs to be the one wearing the run meaning that they choose to have this as a perk regardless if they have a power rez'er on their team or not. This in my opinion makes it a bit more fair as the person doing the Rez wont know the person has the rune on until they attempt to heal them.

The only real issue with this rune is abrasive grit and its unseen (and surely un intended) interaction with the barrier gain frequency. Simply giving it a short icd will balance the issue. And drop it from being god teir to being more fair ish as a build.

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > The problem with the broken interaction of rune of sanctuary:

> >

> > First what it does: gives you barrier for 20% of the amount you are healed.

> >

> > Broken interaction:

> > 1.Use scourge with abrasive grit

> > 2.take bloodmagic vampiric presence

> > 3. Take rune of sanctuary

> >

> > Results in:

> > Get 2 might per hit and cleanse a condition.

> > So hitting 5 targets will give 10might and cleanse 5 conditions.

> >

> > The problem here. Anet will just address this issue with giving an ice on abrasive grit.

> >

> > That's for 100% sure.

> > Which is definetly not the right way to balance.

> > Cause it's not abrasive grit, which is broken. It's the rune

> >

>

> I think the best way to nerf the Sanctuary Scourge is to make it so Vampiric and Vampiric Aura no longer proc the rune. On other classes, the rune is fine, and since it doesn't proc on the Regeneration boon, it's clear that it can have certain heals edited out for balance. Scourge just has a weak trait in normal play that happens to become completely busted in this particular circumstance.

Sir i would like to tell you that you are by far incorrect

THATS THE WORST WAY to nerf sanctuary scourge.

or how about we just give abrasive grit a small cooldown instead of nerfing the trait that effects all aspects of necormancer >_> Because honestly Vampuric and Vampuric aura dont do much with the rune on core and reaper it works pretty fline shaving off small drips of damage for very minor boost in sustain.

So rather than taking a hit to core we could just tweek the 1 trait that makes it bad **Abrasive Grit** and give it like a 2 or 3 second icd. Out side of his rune you wouldn't be applying barrier much more frequently than that anyways which is why it had no icd to start with.

Screw that Power reaper all day >.> I refuse to give up my power for condition.

I have to know can some one tell me if this changed the pvp version or if its even still in pvp at all. That seems very busted with the new changes. If i recall surging was removed and was limited to a longer cool period between uses... there is no way that the new air rune can still be a thing in pvp right?

My current and stupid ideas would flow as follows (for the time being as of me writing this)

I will not move traits from other lines because the focus was mostly be primary helping death magic. Not simply shoving other traits into this line then trying to make new ones for those which makes a bigger mess.

#Ill start wit the minors#

They are all very lackluster to be honest. The best one is armored shroud and its a flat 180 toughness which does nothing these days. Toughness is more or less seen as a wasted attribute. Anyways to start off my idea here looks from a core perspective so lets forget about reaper for a moment. Though i will list scourge details where required.

- **Armored shroud-** Gain Retaliation when you enter shroud and every few seconds while you remain in shroud.

Retaliation duration 5 seconds/ Interval application 5 seconds

- **Soul Comprehension-** Degeneration of Life force and Shroud activation cool down are reduced (skills cost less for scourge)

Life force Degeneration reduced by 20% / Shroud entry cooldown reduced by 20%: 2 seconds (Shade skills cost 20% less life force/ Desert shroud entry reduced by 10% 2 seconds)

- **Beyond the Veil-** Endurance regenerates faster, This bonus is doubled while in shroud

Endurance regeneration increased by 15%, 30% while in shroud.

The idea is that passive toughness increases are pointless. Retaliation fits much better in to shrouds identity crisis to be both a defensive and offensive mechanic at the same time such is the boons nature. Soul comprehension restores some of the most beloved things players have been asking for but now it comes at the cost of committing to a defensive line. Protection is nice but having optional management to avoid damage is overall better. (Besides you can get protection from wells in blood magic)

#Adepts#

- **Flesh of the master** The increased hp is moved to a baseline for minions and this trait is replaced with **Pestiferous Flesh**

**Pestiferous Flesh-** When struck foes pull a a copy of a condition currently on you.

Copy One condition to foes who strike you/ Interval activation 5 seconds per unique foe. (note this does not cleanse you of the condition)

- **Shrouded Removal-** Lose a "Damaging" condition when you enter shroud and every few seconds while you remain in shroud.

Conditions included (Torment, Bleeding, Burning, Confusion, Poison.) / Interval activation 3 seconds

- **Putrid defense-** Reduce incoming damage for each unique condition on a foe.

Damage Reduced per Unique condition 1%

Simply put Shroud keeps its ideal as both a mix of defensive and offensive capabilities with "Pestiferous Flesh". "Shrouded Removal" now only targets damaging conditions but overall remains the same. We already have traits for movement impairing conditions so there is no reason to have those mixed in the list. While the old idea for "Putrid Defense" is ideally stronger its either used some of the time when you actually manage to inflict those short poisons or not at all because necro has no dedicated poison synergy build like ranger and thief do. With this idea " can be used at all times when you opt to pick up the this trait and because both power and condition necromancer are bound to apply at least a few conditions it will always now provide some use.

#Masters#

oh boy...

- **Necromantic Corruption** The increased damage is moved to baseline for minions and this trait is replaced with **Fiendish Deliverance**

**Fiendish Deliverance-** When stunned, dazed, knocked back, pulled, knocked down, sunk, floated, inflicted with fear, taunted, or launched, while over the condition threshold, Break stun and consume all conditions on yourself for health.

Breaks Stun / Condition threshold: 2 / Health per condition 600 / Interval 60 seconds.

This trait also trades slots with Reapers protection for QoL and thematic consistency.

- **Reapers Protection** Removed and replaced with **Retaliating Reprisal**

**Retaliating Reprisal-** Retaliation increases in effectiveness (the damage it strikes back not the boon duration) based on your current hp threshold.

Effectiveness increase / above 75% hp: 20% / Below 75% hp: 35% / Below 50% hp: 50%

This trait swaps places where Necromantic Corruption use to sit for QoL and thematic consistency

- **Deathly Strength-** Flop its stat conversions. This trait now grants bonus toughness based on effective power. Still doubled in shroud.

Power converted to toughness 7% / In shroud 14%

Ok so here we have a dependable break stun (and while it wont grant stability or resistance or make you invuln to damage) it will cure all conditions on yourself for hp when its triggered. "Retaliating Reprisal" synergies with Armored shroud and fits the theme of taking hits in shroud on purpose because soo many things around necro revolves around getting hit to be rewarded. "Deathly Strength" is honestly not so bad but it seems oddly out of place giving only power for toughness i personally think it should be flipped the other way around

#Grand Masters#

(lets get this out of the way you get 1 minion trait cause its all you need) **Death Nova** This effect goes baseline to minions... done with that... Death nova is replaced with **Masters Affliction**

- **Masters Affliction-** Minions Gain all effects from all death magic traits that effect you. (not even sure if thats possible but it sounds cool imo >_>)

Armored shroud gives them retaliation/ Pestiferous Flesh causes them to copy conditions on them to foes when struck etc. etc.

- **Corrupter's Fervor-** Remains as it is this trait is completely fine perfect idea trait for bonus toughness and fighting against condition damage

- **Unholy Sanctuary-** Scale up the base heal to about 240 ish and increase the scaling power from healing power at least like (.160)

Honestly not much changes here Corrupters is solid as is and Unholy literally just needs a stronger base heal and a (fair) scale from healing power. Previous minion traits got moved to base line on minions and this new trait has the option to make them be rather nasty or so i think.

Most of the points are very valid here in this video actually.

To be honest though i think unholy is a good concept but presented poorly only because its numbers are bad, its scaled very very very VERY POORLY

The fact that its meant to be selfish, conditioned to being in shroud to activate, and has worse scaling than plain old regen its very mind blowing. Not to mention even if it was scaled properly the rest of the death magic line is still so bad that it wouldn't be worth taking.

I think a number adjustment on that trait could make it ok and give death magic in itself a identity of being the selfish sustain traitline Simply beef up the base by a ton and leave the scaling fair ish and it would be prefect.

Shrouded Removal should probably target damaging conditions only as we have traits like speed of shadows and Relentless Pursuit to take care of movement impairing conditions.

Reapers protection can die and get replaced by any idea

Soul comp can die and get replaced by any idea

Armored shroud can die and get replaced by any idea (i say grant retaliation personally)

Putrid defense should just change to reducing damage for each unique condition on a foe as all necro builds apply a decent amount of damage and non damaging conditions.

I also agree that minion traits can be reduced to 1 grand master trait and free up the other 2 slots for more creative options and ideas.

Its also funny how the video points out how watered down some necromancer stuff is and how they are still cutting things down like recently with "Lesser spinal shivers and Spiteful spirit"

Poison could was a bad example though I can understand why the minion one does not stop projectiles (it shows that this person either stopped playing, or that this video is super old, or has not been playing long. )

The projectile block was added to posion cloud as a later thing but of course that no excuse for the fact that the lesser version did not get it or the fact that you cant directly use the trait to make the most of its reward because you cant chose to kill your own minions (except 1 type) to activate the trait. (also lets not for get the trait does not do its intended strike damage either)

Mean while as a prime example Ranger runs around with "Not really a Lesser Muddy Terrain" (still waiting for that nerf anet)

> @"Flumek.9043" said:

> Youre forgetting necros have a 2nd health bar.

>

> If youd watch a duel on keep between a clicking anet dev with a mystic build vs another clicking anet dev with mystic build.... youd see how strong necro actually is.

> At least you admit to not having a game design degree.

Why do people call it a hp bar

Fun fact about something with Health points. A true Hp pool does not degenerate over time.

If anything shroud is a the first form basic concept of barrier that just happens to provide you with new skills in the process of activating it.

People need to stop using the excuse of "2nd hp bar" to justify things to their own consciences.

Its really not viable but its getting pretty close. Anything with hard burst damage shuts that build down. It can sustain against other people who dont play super aggressive but generally harder burst = death or you simply dont do enough damage to kill if you go too much less than zerker stats.

I would say core power is strong-ish if you know how to play it. But compared to core warrior, mesmer, ranger, guardian, and even core thief it can be super lacking in raw potential. If core shroud sees a few more buffs damage wise (death magic gets that long cried rework) then yes core would actually be viable. But till that happens it honestly wont be.

That said it does not mean some one cant use it and win on it. But it will almost always be an uphill battle unless the other person has no idea what they are doing (which is kind of common) as people rarely see core necro so much they forget how to fight it so they play super safe (and in alot of situations) this is not what you want to do. Vet players knows this and will smother you consistently and kill you on core necro though.

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Dagger's loss of importance stems from greatsword's overlap as a short range power weapon and the buffs to axe as a ranged power weapon.

>

> Further developing MH dagger into a face-tanking sustain weapon by allowing Life Siphon to also heal one other ally in melee would be nice.

Thats nice but it wont make people value dagger anymore or stop the complaints about its damage being so low. Honestly dropping a single drop of support into the weapon wont be a proper fix and will likely cause dagger to lose even more in other areas without providing any personal benefit in terms of healing or damage. Dagger becomes weaker when used alone and not something particularly needed or wanted when in a group.

Once again this is not the place to try and throw support into the kit.

All dagger needs

Main hand

- considerably reduce after cast from 2nd and 3rd auto chain

- Possibly add life steal to 2nd or 3rd auto chain or increase raw damage of the 2nd and 3rd chain under a specific condition being met (likely if the enemy is bleeding vs if you are bleeing)

- change dagger skill 3 from a boon convert tool to an execution style skill making it deal considerably more damage on hit based on your foes hp.

> @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:

> > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > Bump it up to 3 stacks and reduce shroud cd to 7s. That makes it competitive with death perception without being too strong

> > >

> > > In my opinion 2 stacks for 8s(same duration as furious demise) instead of 3 stacks for 3s and the shroud cooldown reduced to 7s.

> > > That is really all the change this trait need, more stab for longer duration and shroud cooldown reduction, nothing fancy nothing revolutionary just a simple really good grandmaster trait

> >

> > That makes it overly strong actually as it would

> > Grant more stab for longer

> > Break stun on entry

> > and reduce shroud cooldown

> >

> > Keep in mind your numbers reduce the cd to a point that it is possible that the stab can potentially last longer than the shroud cooldown itself meaning perma stab loops with a little splash of boon duration.

> >

> > Shroud cd is not coming back any time soon if we do see it come back i wouldnt be surprised if its thrown into a death magic rework. becoming one of the many useless traits in that line that serve no purpose.

>

> Ye ok 8s with cd reduction might not be good, but if the cd reduction is not there then 8s of 2 stacks of stab imo are the minimum you should get from a grandmaster trait. Also are we really that scared to give core necro more stability? Because that is the only trait we have for it. And to be honest the boonloop on shroud in my opinion should be a thing, obviously with a cap on max duration and stacks, but should be there because it's a nice mechanic to have.

I dont approve of boon splatter of any kind because thats part of the big issue in this game right now. If most of the professions had 50% of their boons cut necro would be perfectly fine in the meta. Infact necro would be overly strong in the meta. So you have to ask yourself is adding more perma boon spam a good solution.

So I say no its not. I'm all for giving necro more stab if its done in a proper way where it can be counter played but not in a way where it can be hard to counter play due to having it spammed up all the time. (this is why pulsing stab was culled from almost everything except warriors balanced stance) which has been extremely nerfed in duration.

I think 2 stacks for 6 seconds would be more realistic in my opinion or simply have it tied to some of the shroud skills that have cooldowns (not the auto attack) 1 stack for 4 seconds etc.

Spectral armor at base shrould grant 1 stack on use. and just like that necro has enough base stab if you opt to take it. Having stab is not the only way for necros sustain to improve mind you we could also use evades, or blocks, or even break targets, something of that nature but we need to wait for a death magic rework to see some of that stuff.

A nice base buff would be making fear cause foes to drop targeting and prevent targeting until fear was removed. Its not always just about having stability

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > hmm... the effective heal of this skill is -10000000. 30 seconds for 1500 heal in 1 v 1 only in 600 range to the enemy on 30 seconds is really bad. and with just 600 range to use this skill for max heal **you have to be in range for 5 enemies**. but in that case you got bursted by everyone of them cause **necro is EVER first target**. so in real Combat situations you get bursted by 1 DE for 20k dmg, 1 Mirage for 20k dmg, 1 warrior for 10 k dmg, 1 soulbeast for 10-20 k dmg, …. while healing 7500 lifepoints. there are reasons nearly no necro is using it. you cant use it properly in the current meta.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Yup, but that doesn't change what I said. It's situational for sure, but when it does hit, it's the jackpot. That's exactly why I said AOE skills are hard to balance and this is no exception. There isn't any suggestion that's going to fly without recognizing this capability on this skill.

> > > >

> > > > thats what i tried to explain. it is NEVER a Jackpot. necromancer is all about positioning. if you can use it at max efficiency you have a bad position because you are next to 5 enemies that will spike you to death. at maximum, in the perfect Situation it heals you for 7500 while getting hits for 50k dmg. at Minimum it heals Nothing. there is never a "7500 heal while getting no dmg"-Scenario. if you would have an invul like Warriors, than you would be correctly with your assumption that this skill has a high potential because you can go into the enemies group, use the heal while being invul, and still have time to retreat from them and Reposition but without invul this skill is just really,really bad..

> > >

> > > It's never a jackpot in the situation you describe; I could describe situations where it is. Nevertheless, it's more about it's potential, which is always the case with skills that scale with AOE. You can always fashion scenarios to show how garbage something is. That doesn't make them insufficient or bad skills. The fact remains that as long as this has the potential Anet has given it, it's really unlikely it will get changed because of an "it's underpowered" argument.

> > >

> > > In fact, I would argue it's leaning into that category of Epidemic; Epidemic got a nerf because it's potential for abuse was high. By itself, from a single player, it was OK ... put it in a team of necros and it was ridiculous OP. The same applies here; it has the potential to be better than most heal skills, and I think that's enough to get negative attention from the devs.

> > >

> > > Again, AOE skills ... very hard to balance.

> >

> > the Scenario i gave you is the reality in 99% of fights. thats the reason no one is playing that skill. it is also easy to balance that stuff, there are several ways:

> >

> > - give it a base heal and reduce number of Targets you can Siphon life from.

> > - increase Siphon of life from each target while reducing number of Targets the skill can hit.

> > - add weakness/blind to that signet to mitigate the dmg income.

> > - increase range so you can use it from a better Position without getting too much dmg.

> > - ...

> >

> > non of these would increase the potential max dmg or heal from that skill. **the Point is finally, what is the gain of a skill?** atm you get more dmg while using it than you get heal from it (thats fact, otherwise every necro would Play this). so the gain from that skill is bad. you can now give it a better upscaling for heal per target so its more useful in 1v1 or 2v2 fights while reducing number of Targets to have the same or less max heal from that skill like before. optimize usage by decreasing casttimes or increasing range of that skill or trying to decrease potential Incoming dmg with effects to make this skill useful. a lot of Options, non of These are hard to realize.

>

> The gain of that peculiar skill is:

> _Passive:_ Movement speed and 180 healing power when traited.

> _Active:_ Damage on up to 5 targets in a 600 radius and healing based on the number of target hit. The damage part can crit and proc "on hit" effect while the healing component have a nice scaling with healing power putting you at more than 2k4 heal per hit with an healing amulet.

>

> Yes, on a 1v1 it's not impressive, like epidemic is just plain useless in 1v1. But as soon as you face more target (even in 1v2 or 2v2, you are already at 3k heal which is already better than the mesmer mantra) the healing component shot throught the roof and make this skill as effective as a proper heal skill which mean that it's like sloting a second heal skill. The trait can even cut substantially the cool down of the skill to half which is huge.

>

> Now, yeah, it's not a duellist skill, just like epidemic is not a duellist skill. But even in a duel the heal can be seen as quite high granted the fact that the skill already have a nice additionnal passive effect when off CD. The skill need neither an increase in range nor a cast time decrease, the skill is by itself full of potential even if it is a chore to use it. I doubt that there is a single signet somewhere in this game with more potential than this one. There are skills on the necromancer that need to be better a lot more than this skill need it.

Lol this back and forth

I want to give some input Coming from some one who often duels with signet builds on necro on the current meta (all ive been using for 1v1's for the past few months)

Reasons why this signet is actually good

Most necro abilities scale pretty hard off that little splash of 180 healing power not to mention throwing a good healing rune and blood magic (last rights passive ontop of it) and you can get good chunk worth of healing power (usually between 450-550 at 100% hp) without having to use a healing power amulet or armor stats. On active its a nice free splash heal (even only on 1 target) + free chip damage even on targets that are in stealth or kiting

The reason why people dont use it

Its situational to get the most out of it and because of that fact its potential is not high in most situations in the current meta of the game. Its risky and you have to build around it to make the biggest bang for your buck. Generally the skill is not bad and if you build around it (to mostly benefit from the healing power) it can actually be ok in a 1v1. But usually you build your amulet or stats and traits before you pick your utility not the other way around.

The top 3 reasons why people dont use this signet or usually any other signet

- Signets in general dont fit well in to the current meta builds for free. (except plague signet)

- The second biggest reason is that you have to build around using signets and know how to play using them as it requires a different play style that most people don't like or often screw up (to which they then blame the signets being too bad.) Or they dont see the time worth investing in trying to learn how to make them work because they know they have better tools that already work with less effort.

- The biggest reason though, there are just better tools in your kit options for a wider range of situations for the current meta builds.

In short the skill is fine as is. It needs nothing more or less. The current meta just does not suit it well for most situations & its not worth taking if you don't commit to building around it.

> @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > Bump it up to 3 stacks and reduce shroud cd to 7s. That makes it competitive with death perception without being too strong

>

> In my opinion 2 stacks for 8s(same duration as furious demise) instead of 3 stacks for 3s and the shroud cooldown reduced to 7s.

> That is really all the change this trait need, more stab for longer duration and shroud cooldown reduction, nothing fancy nothing revolutionary just a simple really good grandmaster trait

That makes it overly strong actually as it would

Grant more stab for longer

Break stun on entry

and reduce shroud cooldown

Keep in mind your numbers reduce the cd to a point that it is possible that the stab can potentially last longer than the shroud cooldown itself meaning perma stab loops with a little splash of boon duration.

Shroud cd is not coming back any time soon if we do see it come back i wouldnt be surprised if its thrown into a death magic rework. becoming one of the many useless traits in that line that serve no purpose.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > If alacrity affect shroud CD, why not adding let's say 4-5s alacrity to FitG on shroud exit? Because whatever happen, 5 flat second CD reduction on shroud isn't going to be realist.

> >

> > that sounds pretty good, except that alacrity would affect other skills as well and could turn out to be op.

>

> I don't see a lot of out of shroud skills that would be OP even with a shave of CD thought...

I can think of one reason

Vital Persistence + Reapers Onslaught/w auto attacks + having personal access to Alacrity to stack on top of these other traits which also reduce shroud skill cooldowns.

In reapers case THATS ALOT of cooldown shave potential without outside supporting sources

For core it could be ok

For scourge it might be ok ish.... even then its still questionable (boon duration could make it a problem)

For reaper It might be busted which leads to more of the wrong things getting changed to balance it out.

I still think our best bet is just looking at how the current mechanic to gain the stability works (like getting 1 stack on use of shroud skills that have cooldowns) or just doing a numbers change on stacks and duration and calling it a day

meh i dont like it :C

Just give marks 2 ammo each when you take the soul marks trait. Or find a way to work in way to reduce the cd of marks (landing auto attacks, entering shroud, etc.)

The skill is just too situational for most people which is why its not used.

Its actually fine though imo.

Dont forget about making **flesh wurm** a practical teleport/breakstun vs being a telegraphed "save point" that dies in 2 hits

New Wurm

Shadow step to target location leaving behind a summoned flesh wurm to attack your foes. (instant cast /break stun)

Follow up with

Teleport back to your wurm's location destroying it, gaining life force, and blind foes. (now has a small cast time)

basically the portion that acts as the break stun needs to be flip flopped as a QoL change. This alone would make Wurm so much better.

I dont particularly agree with stealth on spectral skills but **spectral walk** making you immune to movement impairing conditions would be nice.

I only think currently that one trait should be a stealth trait for necro and its in the death magic tree

**"Beyond the Vail"** should grant the necro 2 or 3 seconds of stealth upon leaving shroud. It makes sense here considering death magic is suppose to be your defense line and stealth acts as one of the strongest defense mechanics in the game. But thats just me.

I wouldn't call your examples stereotypes per say but they are the first ones that come to peoples minds because thats likely the first example the majority are introduced to.

A thief can be very loyal and trusting granted it just depends on how people look at things.

For example there have been villains who are technically, in one aspect or another, "guardians" to the views of some.

Yes they think that their resolve and what they are doing is some form of justice even if it means killing or getting rid of those who do follow their goals. They choose to protect those who do fall in line with their ideas though. The terms for things like "Guardian" can be very loose.

Even your renegade example can easily have 2 sides of the coin as a renegade is defined as "a person who deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles." Meaning that they could desert whats seen as a good organization for their own reasons or to side with an organization that can be seen as bad.

In short my answer is **"No"** because everything can be "good" or loyal and everything can also be "bad" or backstabbing and if you want you can opt to be "neutral." It just depends on how far out side of the box your mind goes.

> @"mazut.4296" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Kumouta.4985" said:

> > > should be more like the engi trait juggernaut imo

> >

> > I dont like the idea of pulsing stability on a shroud thats as flexible as reaper or core honestly it wont be a healthy change that people wont complain about and surely you must know that. Its generally not a healthy mechanic to have in this game. (there was a time when i thought of this idea too but thinking about it when i had to fight double (balanced stance warriors before the nerf to stances) on any profession that was not necromancer its very frustrating not be able to do anything against. The only counter to it is realistically necro itself. )

> >

> > The difference with juggernaut is that flamethrower kit is not very flexible. Its very limited and the skills are not as impactful as core or reaper shroud skills.

> >

> > As far as the OP idea

> > The best thing would be to grant 2 or 3 stacks of stab for 4-5 seconds on entry (enough stacks to soak a double stun/ duration long enough to secure a stomp without being interrupted easily if you wished to do so)

> >

> > Aside from that the fact that it also breaks stun on shroud entry makes it good as is.

> > Its not that its current mechanics are bad the numbers are just funky. Not enough stab stats and the duration of those stacks is too short.

> >

> > EDIT:

> > Another idea would be to make it do this

> > Entering shroud breaks stun, shroud skills 2 trough 5 grant stability on use.

> > **Breaks stun**

> > Skills 2-5 now grant stability

> > **Stability 1 stack for 4 seconds**

> >

> > This way its not limited to simply entry and the user has more control of when they get the stability. The trait also helps the necro complete what is often very long channeled skills in shroud without being interrupted as easily (though double stuns can still do it) making it several times more valuable. Imo This is a better option over pulsing stability as it will still have down times and works a a strong defensive option which is the traits nature. Also more synergy with blighters boon for those who opt to take the defensive reaper playstyle over the offensive one.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Only skill 4 and 5 should give stability(2 stacks for 6 sec. Up to 5 players with desert shroud). If auto attack giving stab, that will be to strong, but it's a cool idea.

You might have totally missed the part where i said skills 2 through 4 lol basically only skills with cooldowns would grant it. Also no this is not a support based trait and would only grant the stacks to the caster.

> @"Kumouta.4985" said:

> should be more like the engi trait juggernaut imo

I dont like the idea of pulsing stability on a shroud thats as flexible as reaper or core honestly it wont be a healthy change that people wont complain about and surely you must know that. Its generally not a healthy mechanic to have in this game. (there was a time when i thought of this idea too but thinking about it when i had to fight double (balanced stance warriors before the nerf to stances) on any profession that was not necromancer its very frustrating not be able to do anything against. The only counter to it is realistically necro itself. )

The difference with juggernaut is that flamethrower kit is not very flexible. Its very limited and the skills are not as impactful as core or reaper shroud skills.

As far as the OP idea

The best thing would be to grant 2 or 3 stacks of stab for 4-5 seconds on entry (enough stacks to soak a double stun/ duration long enough to secure a stomp without being interrupted easily if you wished to do so)

Aside from that the fact that it also breaks stun on shroud entry makes it good as is.

Its not that its current mechanics are bad the numbers are just funky. Not enough stab stats and the duration of those stacks is too short.

EDIT:

Another idea would be to make it do this

Entering shroud breaks stun, shroud skills 2 trough 5 grant stability on use.

**Breaks stun**

Skills 2-5 now grant stability

**Stability 1 stack for 4 seconds**

This way its not limited to simply entry and the user has more control of when they get the stability. The trait also helps the necro complete what is often very long channeled skills in shroud without being interrupted as easily (though double stuns can still do it) making it several times more valuable. Imo This is a better option over pulsing stability as it will still have down times and works a a strong defensive option which is the traits nature. Also more synergy with blighters boon for those who opt to take the defensive reaper playstyle over the offensive one.

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> For myself, it would be nice to have an elite with elite utilities. Shout and Punishment utilities feel lacking and I end up running core utilities much of the time on elite specializations.

^ this :+1:

Well let me start by telling you that no form of current necro is a dueling profession (not that you cant use it as one) but it will be bad at it compared to most other professions in the game currently so if you are roaming on necro with 0 support at your side prepare to die alot (and occasionally win if you make good hard reads with a decent build)

Reaper now has the power to kill just as fast as it gets killed roughly your shroud auto attack can kill most professions in about 3-4 hits give or take one based on your trait set up and if they have a way to avoid the damage or not. While its mobility is still rather bad there are some tactics you can use toe mitigate this issue.

Using Locust swarm as some one else already pointed out will help you immensely

If some one does not want to challenge shroud (most people wont now cause its deadly as it should be) they will start to kite you. From here you have a few options.

1: Chase them normally, "DO NOT" use your shroud 2 skill even more so if they are really close to you. Wait for them to do some kind of blink or leap movement to get more ground then follow up with shroud 2. Even i have to still take my time on this one I often end up blowing my charge too early and people get away out of bad habit.

2: If some one starts to walk away you turn an walk away. (if you have the life force to spare dont drop shroud yet) Usually what happens is they will turn and start to follow you. Once they start to do this use shroud 2 to dive in on them. Yes some times they will still dodge but it puts you in melee range, forces them to blow a dodge or evasive skill to avoid the damage, or just out right eat the damage (best case).

3: Swiftness is key, Do not under estimate speed of shadows (Even more so if you dont run a staff) its a good trait lets you clear the immobilized, cripple, chill status.

4: Drop shroud and opt not to waste your life force, use axe or staff to poke at them while you have the distance or use great sword to pull them back, **Caution!** this will always be the most risky play as most players will see this as the perfect time to attack you. Any time you drop shroud its when you are most vulnerable for the next 10 seconds.

**Shroud up time**

You can have a slightly better chance at sustaining your shroud if you know how to combo spectral skills with shroud for max efficiency

Spectral master is still a good trait if you run soul reaping and it always will be decent.

Using spectral armor before going in to shroud (if you have it available or if you have other break stuns on your bar) will allow you to reduce incoming damage and keep your life force generating as you get hit. Each proc of this while in shroud can be considered an extra second that you otherwise would not have had. (in the instance of fighting mesmers each clone + the mesmer can proc the activation independently once per second which is massive life for generation. ) While you have this up consider using infusing terror but not releasing it as it will also reduce incoming damage This is you best time to pressure your foes even more so if they are committing to attacking you. Damage is reduced by a ton, you have stability, and if they hit you it rewards you by generating life force. If some one thats not condition challenges you in this situation its usually a win if they dont correct the mistake quickly.

**Build Diversity**

I dont agree with you here. I think necromancer has some of the widest build diversity in the game. Necro no longer feels locked into any of its core traitlines and while yes you are locked into an elite spec line there are builds that can be ran without blood magic, spite, curses, or even soul reaping. We use to be locked into soul reaping along time ago but now we are not. (Its now a good traitline again) but not something you are locked into.

Take these examples

- Ele: Often locked into arcane and or water

- Thief: 99% of the time always locked into trickery regardless of what build they use

- Warrior: The hot thing right now seems to be Discipline and or Defense... honestly warrior only usually only uses 3 of its 5 core lines in most of its builds

- Ranger: Almost alway locked into Beastmastery and or Wilderness Survival because they are way too good across all builds.

I think personally necro offers some of the most diversity between core traitlines in the game Non of them are so overly strong that they or required to the point that you cant play a decent power or condition build without them (depending on how well you know necro)

**Shroud**

Shroud is good-ish.

**Core shroud** lacks raw power to be a threat but has 0 defensive skills or zone control to stop people form running it over. Anet needs to realize this and find a way to boost its damage to a healthy level without over shadowing reaper doing more damage in melee range or actually give it some defensive skills rather than offensive ones.

**Reaper Shroud** is actually not too bad. Its got less uptime but easily 5x-10x the damage when you can land the hits. Its mobility is honestly no better than core but it has some bonus damage reduction and the power to give itself stability for a short time. Reapers biggest problem right now in my opinion and the only thing that needs to be reworked is it's shouts. Some of them could use 2 charges and the shout trait honestly needs to be reworked. the life stealing mechanic is a bit of a joke.

**Lastly**

Now let me end this by saying, I totally agree with you I would love to see a shroud thats not 100% based on protecting your hp and gives you an assassin like play style

but if reapers charge was a blink and not a charge i feel like it would be pretty close to being a assassin though.

I would love a duel sword wraith like elite spec personally something that get s a shroud like https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/darksiders/images/2/2a/Ds_wraith2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100824053414

You can always main the profession that keeps your interest the most or is the funnest for you to play regardless of how good you are at it.

But there are benefits to playing other classes occasionally though,

- Learning their mechanics in the event you fight them.

- Understanding their basics with first hand experience.

- Some might be better for general grinding / farming, others may have an easier time with jumping puzzles due to blinks etc.

Just to name a few points

Dont feel that you need to go out and play each profession all at once either you can take your time with it. It was a few years before I tried mesmer and even longer before I gave engi a try for the first time. But you might find as you play other things that you like something else more than you thought you would. The game has changed alot seince launch.

You dont have to be a mutli class player (on a serious note) but i find playing other professions personally helps me be a bit more chill rather than serious when i play especially in pvp modes. I tend to have more "mindless" fun when playing other professions that are not my main, but more "tactical" fun when im playing my main.