Aomine.5012

Well, the reason why Mirage suffers in PVP atm is because both of the broken classes like Spellbreaker and Scourge counters them directly.

One just spam Shades and all your illusions are dead in no time, another just spam full counter and kill off your illusions in one hit, and you have no control over your illusions for them to stop attacking.

Scourge hands down.

2 "smart Scourges" (The one that don't stupidly stand in node and use terrain for their advantage) is enough to ruin a game for you.

The smart one also don't eat Full Counter at all since it's quite easy to tell when it'd triggered as Scourge.

 

A good Scourge should beat Spellbreaker any days if they don't eat their own condition because they don't know when Full Countered will be triggered and just spam their skills, so a smart Scourge has the advantage to counter another broken class which is Spellbreaker. (Other classes might not even be able to kill Spellbreaker, but Scourge definitely can if he bait and stall out the Berserker Stance duration. )

> @Razor.6392 said:

> you know what I don't get, the fact that both of these problematic specs (SB and scourge) weren't even designed with PVE in mind. Spellbreaker is obvious and about Scourge I don't think in PVE you have tons of boons to corrupt constantly, not even in raids afaik, coupled with the most ineffective condition for pve (torment) AND YET THEY'RE SOMEHOW INCREDIBLY BROKEN AGAINST ACTUAL PLAYERS.

>

> How? I honestly don't get it. It's not like Deadeye where buffing in pve would break it on pvp and viceversa, or Holosmith. _These specs were made for pvp_, and they managed to become incredibly over the top to the point of draining the fun out of the game.

>

> 8 (6.5) seconds for an aoe counter of the size of the node that does everything except maybe stealth. Literal AOE spam on small nodes (people DID complain a lot about DH and their traps taking entire points) on scourge that does **not** encourage smart play from the necros... what have we learned from HoT?

>

 

Lmao Scourge is OP in PVE too, having the highest damage AND the highest AOE damage in the entire game atm.

It is brain-dead easy to play in PVE too cuz everything just melt and there're tons of life force to gather.

 

Torment you say? Scourge can apply like 8 conditions in mere 1 second.

Torment is not their only dps method, bleed, burning and poison also help.

The fact that one F5 equates to 25 stacks of aoe Torment in just one click already is stupid strong in terms of Torment application too.

> @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

> > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > Rifle of Deadeye need a buff though, especially for the AA and kneeling skills.

>

> There is NO way thats going to happen, if anything they will be getting a nerf. The damage Rifle does is out of control, being able to deal 17k+ damage from stealth, in an instant with zero build up IS broken. The auto attack can hit for 5k+ as well. Deaths Judgement will be getting a nerf, it very much needs it in PvP/WvW settings.

>

 

If you ever tried a Rifle in PVE, you'd know how bad it is lolz..

 

Maybe they need a split version of PVE and PVP Rifle, but currently in PVE rifle is just bad, with one of the lowest damage among theif's weapons, and took too long for any meaningful stuffs to be done while glue yourself on spot.

> @TerminalMontage.5693 said:

> You don't know what you're talking about, Soulbeast is in a much better place than some of the other specs (Holo, Deadeye).

 

Just because raid dps check of those 2 classes are not on the top list doesn't mean they designed badly.

 

Holosmith has very strong potential in PVP because of the on demand burst , stability, aoe, and lots of hard CC.

 

Deadeye has potential in PVP too , and so far seems to counter classes like Scourge with their stealthy assassination range style.

 

Rifle of Deadeye need a buff though, especially for the AA and kneeling skills.

> @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

> > @Crapgame.6519 said:

> > Yeah - a lot of people tend to agree. The Gazelle didn't get the best when it comes to AI, granted. However, it isn't just hitting high on downed players. I've personally seen mine hit for over 20K out in WvW both solo and a group of 4. Could be a one off but then again everything is a bit off in WvW since the expansion.

>

> How much power do you have? Boons and everything else? I have nearly 3k Power, 210% Crit damage and i havent seen it hit that high, think my highest was like 8k or something and that was against a full zerk ele. Given that its not got the best pathing or anything means it doesnt hit often, but when it does it hits big, which is kinda fair, ive taken 17k+ Dead Eye shots that have had ZERO set up against me

>

> It does need the damage against downed fixed, it also needs its pathing and normal attacks improved because you can just go around in a circle and avoid it lol

>

 

Agreed, damage is not everything.

 

My Deadeye P/P gain max boons/ quickness in 2 seconds and can spike down any unsuspecting foe, but it doesn't make it strong in pvp or against players who know their class/ utilize reflect and stuff.

> @Sedlina.1097 said:> the dev interview shown on woodenpotatoes channel has the answer for you> 3 different people were in charge of the teams to balance the new elite specs> Karl Mclain> In charge of weaver (worked on dragonhunter, daredevil and tempest for the last expansion)> > Robert Gee> In charge of spellbreaker, mirage, holo and deadeye (worked on chrono, reaper and berserker for the last expansion)> > Irenio Calmon-Huang> In charge of firebrand, renegade, scourge and soulbeast (worked on scrapper and druid for the last expansion)> > > Long story short. It's a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand's doing. Just with 3 hands instead of two> 3 dev teams> 3 different mindsets> 3 different ways to approach/balance gameplay elements> > The result is what we got with path of fire.> >

edit: added source:

.> I can't believe the person who design Scourge/ Firebrand is the same that design Soulbeast.Those 2 classes got complete re-haul of their class mechenic in general and play out completely differently.Soulbeast loses pet and gain 3 skills, which 2 of them being terrible and 3rd skill being restrictive. Dagger has by far the most inferior animation and flavor among all the new weapons.

> @Vitali.5039 said:

> > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > Have fun killing anyone with bear transformation lolz.

>

> That don't prevent the weapon set usage unlike reaper's/death shroud. Its not like you'll go biting to death foes..

>

> > Yep you get your resistance, hurray, with long cd and no damage.

>

> And a 3s cd Damage immunity, it could be handy in many situations

>

>

> > You think Spellbreaker works only cuz of sustain? Their Full Counter doing 8k Aoe damage, aoe stun, and transfer 5 conditions bombed by Scourge to the enemy's team , with so many access to resistance and large passive healing while dodging/ blocking is the main reason why they're so strong.

>

> No, and I don't read anywhere where you could have read so. Soulbeast don't play as SB and comparing it to a dedicated PvP class is like to compare a PvP reaper with a PvP scrapper.

 

Your theory of Bear Soulbeast will work only when they add in swap pet during beast mode, or removal of Soulbeast unmerged CD, or else you'd be stuck with Bear for too long to do anything meaningful within the time you get access to resistance.

 

Sure it can work in WvW because there'll be someone covering you up, and your personal dps doesn't matter cuz other can carry you, but in pvp you're just a liability with low pressure and still subpar sustain.

> @Sol.4310 said:

> > @Khenzy.9348 said:

> > It's Spellbreakers you need to worry about, not Scourges. You counter Scourges with Ancient Seeds and a longbow.

> >

> > Spellbreaker is the greatest counter this profession has ever faced. Unless they get some serious nerfs, good luck.

>

> Only class that can effectively beat a Spellbroken is Scourge, kinda funny. Nothing else really stands a chance.

 

Firebrand is even more tanky than Spellbreaker btw.

 

Try fighting against a good one, or a pair of them working in duo que, they're unkillable unless your team have 2 Scourges.

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @LughLongArm.5460 said:

> > Druid can kill scourge, but not on point.

>

> No different from spellbreaker or any dangerous melee opponent.

 

Druid don't have the dps to kill Spellbreaker 1 on 1 unless that spellbreaker is extremely bad.

 

I tried Spellbreaker a few days ago and reach platinum division 2, and I have yet to see any good ranger that stand a chance.

They're like free kills to me cuz their pets screw them over. If they run Druid, they don't hurt me at all, if they run Soulbeast they can't kill me either, and they get revenge killed quite easily. Unlike fighting other Spellbreaker/ Firebrand which I may not kill them at all, or fighting Holosmith which has the potential to CC chain spike down me , or playing against good Scourge which knows how to dodge and counter Full Counter and screw me over, Druid/ Soulbeast is never a threat, and often feels like free kill and non-existence point defender. They often get decapped so fast that they might as well not exist at all.

 

This is the state of ranger atm.

> @Vitali.5039 said:

> > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > Soulbeast is just an inferior warrior with no sustain

> > No access to resistance, short duration stability, long cd immune damage, no long duration block , bad sustain, bad cleanse with long cd (Bear stance cd will kill you after it expires in 4 secs), and got melt down by everything.

> >

> > Oh, feel free to pull out your Longbow and got countered so hard by all the meta class with reflection.

> >

> > When I play a Spellbreaker, ranger is basically free kill, even worse than Deadeye. (Deadeye got stealth to troll people, and can dish out 10k per hit if timed right)

> > All they can do is run away as soon as I get to the cap point since the pet will only triggers Full Counter easily and kill them. It's a free decap whenever I see a Ranger in PVP right now.

> >

>

> Peoples who don't run Clarion Bond or Unstoppable union, rofl.

> Brown Bear gives Resistance along with a good heal and another damage immunity.

>

> When the gazelle will be toned down many will pick it, bowbear isn't a noob levelling build exclusive anymore.

 

Have fun killing anyone with bear transformation lolz.

Yep you get your resistance, hurray, with long cd and no damage.

 

You think Spellbreaker works only cuz of sustain? Their Full Counter doing 8k Aoe damage, aoe stun, and transfer 5 conditions bombed by Scourge to the enemy's team , with so many access to resistance and large passive healing while dodging/ blocking is the main reason why they're so strong.

 

Heck, Soulbeast doesn't even has boon removal too, with bad cleanse, bad resistance access, bad passive healing , yet Anet want Ranger to use these tools to play like a Warrior.

 

Sincerely hope you're not in my team with your bearbow Soulbeast. Please be on the other side.

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> Idk but I feel the team comp is way more diverse now that PoF launched. I use Scourge to counter spellbreaker by stripping their ridiculous amount of boons. It comes down to skill. Every class has a class to counter it. So you need to learn it. Idk but it's been like that since forever. Most of my losses come from inexperienced players, which are there no matter what tier I play in.

 

Diverse as to every single game with 2~4 Spellbreakers and 2~5 Scourge, duo que Firebrand tank and occasionally some cheap Deadeye?

Soulbeast is just an inferior warrior with no sustain

No access to resistance, short duration stability, long cd immune damage, no long duration block , bad sustain, bad cleanse with long cd (Bear stance cd will kill you after it expires in 4 secs), and got melt down by everything.

 

Oh, feel free to pull out your Longbow and got countered so hard by all the meta class with reflection.

 

When I play a Spellbreaker, ranger is basically free kill, even worse than Deadeye. (Deadeye got stealth to troll people, and can dish out 10k per hit if timed right)

All they can do is run away as soon as I get to the cap point since the pet will only triggers Full Counter easily and kill them. It's a free decap whenever I see a Ranger in PVP right now.

 

> @"silent killer.5732" said:

> > @Murdock.6547 said:

> > High power burst obliterates scourge. heavy cc obliterates scourge. strong focus obliterates scourge, and hard engaging on a scourge who just condi bombed someone else obliterates scourge.

> >

> > I'm a garbage bag of a thief and yet somehow I seem to eat scourges like a snack whenever I watch them roll their Fskills and obliterate someone else.

> > YES their shades are too strong to stand in ... but.. no kitten? Don't stand in AoEs you ape. Necro has -always- been focused on keeping its enemies out of reach of them with area denial via wells, marks, or just spooky fields (poison and plaguelands) ... now they have GENUINELY DANGEROUS FIELDS and suddenly people forget how necromancer works?

> >

> > Scourge did nothing to change necro; this is necro on steroids is all. Everything that worked before (focus, cc, and burst) still works. if anything it works even better because now necro doesn't have the sponging of shroud or the stability from reaper shroud.

> > Unbad yourselves, and coordinate to focus. Their escapes still don't exist and so long as you don't eat the fear and sit on your knees with your mouth open for the condi splurge you shouldn't be getting obliterated while focusing a necro.

> >

> > Tl;dr: Stop standing in their aoe (yes, I know you want to cap. but this is what area denial is. kill the source of it if you want to stand there), don't get feared (it's instant cast so I won't call you bad if you do, but at least have a stunbreak ready), and use teamwork.

> >

> > Also scourge is the reason hard bunkers will not exist any further unless they have non-boon related invuln spam. But invuln prevents point contribution so lul even if they do. So I welcome them entirely. kitten ventari rev, and kitten bunker firebrand.

>

> You are the only one who honest here about the scourge. The aoe classes now killed us even more i was angry about the scourge mainly because of the death shroud we lost and secondary for the fact we only can play condi build while my necro were power reaper and i love being power not condi

>

> The theive and the mesmers and the rangers are our perfict enemies and if the enemy team are good they will defend those aoe classes and there is no op scourge would work after this form

>

> We still die to one theif burst or mesmer or ranger

> And we didn't Say anything since the very beginning..

 

Trying to play victim when 95% of the matches have 3~4 scourge per game.

 

Sure.

 

And yes, range class like Deadeye should kill you, but other than that Deadeye doesn't do much either and no-way defeating Spellbreaker or Firebrand.

Mesmer and Ranger also got countered by Spellbreaker completely, so playing them are at a disadvantage too.

 

Also what Scourge excel at is when there're 2 decent Scourge present in a team, they'd win any team fight that's not Foefire (big circle).

The good scourge use terrain for their advantage and utilize portal.

I went from 0 to 1680 within 2 days. Win rate about 60%.

What's wrong with MMR again?

> @roamzero.9486 said:

> I would make the CD 10s across the board (WvW included), reduce the range, and make the stab/resistance it gives only apply when it hits an enemy.

 

No need to nerf the PVE version honestly.

Not like anyone will take a Spellbreaker in PVE anyway, so at least let them faceroll Open-world with Full-Counter.

> @"Harry Foud.1935" said:

> > @Arheundel.6451 said:

> > Reaching out to the devs.....**Scourge and Spellbreaker are absolutely essential to the game**

> >

> > All that boon ripping/corruption/punishment keeps at bay all the cancerous builds created post PoF, that would be let free to join the other cancerous builds from HoT meta in case Scourge and Spellbreaker ar taken out:

> >

> > -condition mirage/chrono

> > -dragonhunter/ bunker firebrand/ burning burst firebrand

> > -tanky holosmith/tanky scrapper

> > -staff mender druid

> >

> > The specs above require very little effort to stay alive and perform extremely well even when you have multiple version of them in a team, **they make the game boring, slow, unenjoyable**. Scourge and Spellbreaker are the heroes of this expansion because they've brought a so much needed change of gameplay , a gameplay that has remained static for the last 3 years, boonbot stealthing/block spammers bunkers with plethora of CC/aoe trap crap.

> >

> > Both these specs are devastating no doubt but the amount of counterplay they offer is unparalleled , truly a great job on the devs part: in case they both get nerfed....we will need massive nerfs to HoT specs and some PoF ones ( holosmith-mirage-firebrand), that's what I think.

> >

> > -Scourge has only barrier as defense, virtually no stability, no charge...just loads of zoning and that makes them extremely vulnerable to ranged burst dmg ( no like pre-nerf reapers)

> > -Spellbreakers...90% of what they are is "full counter", very visible , enough to bait and dodge and after that spellbreaker is even weaker than core war

> >

> > So...why that hate about Scourge and Spellbreaker?.....**they are anti-cheese builds**: that's what I love about them, that's what many like me wanted for years - a direct hardcounter to all cheese in game ( and we still need even more hardcounrters to stealth cheesers and boonbot bunkers)

> >

>

> This is by far the most absurd thing anyone ever said about this game. Everyone in this forum is now more stupid cause of that. Scourge and Spellbreaker are by far the most broken classes atm. Every Spellbreaker is immortal with the dagger/shiel-gs build and Scourges win 1v3. But yeah keep telling yourself that.

 

Scourge will help a 3 v 3 or 3 v 4 fight win, but unless the opponent is complete garbage, 2 people is more than enough to spike down a lone Scourge.

They don't have the tool to live the focus fire.

> @hurrado.2346 said:

> > @Exciton.8942 said:

> > At least daredevil and mirage take skills to play well, you will never get queues flooded with them even if they are strong.

>

> Every class takes skill to play well, even bad mesmers and thieves can reset fights or run from better players depending on class. It's just a matter of play style, if you don't like actually fighting play a mes or a thief and you can run away when things go poorly, since apparently some people die a little bit inside every time they are killed on a game.

>

> I'd rather fight a scourge or spell breaker to the death than fight a thief or Mesmer any day.

 

Start playing spellbreaker since yesterday, haven't touched pvp for 6 months.

Got to platinum division 2, finished last tier of pvp season track within 20 hrs :)

 

Well Scourge and Spellbreaker seems to have a low skill cap.

> @Aza.2105 said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > The people I defeat with Spellbreaker, I'm quite sure I can do without using Full Counter. The toolset is strong because of the sustain, Full Counter is just the icing on the cake. It's simply another high damage packet burst that has a slightly different mechanic. Sure, you can't block it, but you can evade it and it does require you to hit them first. How is that any different to me unloading an arcing slice for even more damage?

> >

> > If theres anything to complain about its how ridiculously good magebane tether is. I wouldn't take revenge counter unless I'm up against heavy conditions.

>

> The difference is is that surrounding players get highly punished by a single player who so happens to hit a warrior during full counter. In addition you only have a very tiny interval to punish a warrior due to high sustain, resistance, blocks, invul and mobility all while wearing a dps amulet. How is that not a problem?

 

Ikr, I have no problem soloing spellbreaker.

 

But in 2 V 2 my trash teammate could hit Spellbreaker carelessly and got me stun/ condi bomb because of his stupidity.

It also makes my block skill pointless cuz the teammates will just hit it anyway..

I'm seeing like 4 Scourges in every single match in these 2 days.

If Anet doesn't have a class roll system, I bet I'd see 6+ of them each match.

> @Kitten.4162 said:

> Gazelles can hit me for 15-18k with a charge before knocking me down for another 6k within 2-3 seconds.

>

> I've tested this several times within a dueling server, after I witnessed it in my combat logs several times within Plat+ ranked games.

>

> That's literally my entire health pool, with a cc in mind - while the ranger is hitting me on top of that. :s

>

> I never had that much of a problem with any of the HoT pets, so I feel like it's an overtuning issue overall. :#

>

> What do you guys think?

 

I played a total of 40 games in this 2 days, and I haven't see a single good ranger in any match, let alone any good pet that causes me any source of trouble.

Scourge, Spellbreaker are way more threatening.

 

PS: I'm in platinum division atm.

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> Problem with spellbreaker is not with damage nor CC, CC and damage are completely fine

> it's because it lives too long, it can 1v2 for a long time(to chain FC within dodges, evades and blocks and endure pain)

> on white node or owned node and wait to friends to +1

>

> simply put if you just change CD to 12 and not touch anything else, SB would be C/B tier imo,

 

Well, Druid's staff 3 and celestial got almost doubled the cd treatment.

Now they're subpar and I haven't see any good one in like 30 matches.

Just give Spellbreaker Druid treatment and it's balanced.

 

Full Counter: CD increased to 12 seconds (PVP/ WVW only)

Also make it unaffected by burst skill cd reduction trait.

 

As for Scourge, many things need to be nerfed.

For one, all F1~F4 need a 1 second cast time in PVP / WvW only.


 

A screenshot is better than some weird numbers.

 

Sure, not the highest number in raid or anything, but it's the highest true range attack. (Ground Target circle spamming doesn't count as range attack to me though since if target moves, you lose all the damage, defeating the purpose of range attack)

 

Using some other weapon as deadeye may hit harder I guess? Not sure.

 

 

> @zell.3051 said:

> > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > Trickery , Critical Strike, Deadeye. P/P.

> >

> > With malice signet and 15% crit dm from damage, you can hardly ever die while pew pew enemies from afar.

> > Best range class I've ever played.

> >

> > Refreshed Deadeye mark triggers 2 initiative gain on steal, as well as swapping weapon gain 3 initiative.

> > You'd hardly ever run outta of it, while most veterans can't do anything to you and quickly get pew pew down.

> >

> > Edit: If you wanna hit 5 targets, staff seems to be the only choice..

> > Rifle pierces but it's really a bad weapon, so maybe just shortbow then?

>

> Taking invigorating precision (assuming that's what you meant with the 15%) over No Quarter will increase your survival but will drastically lower your might buildup from Assassin's Fury. Taking malice signet and lifesteal on crit food will be more than sufficient to sustain at 900 range.

> For AOE my pick will always be shortbow simply due to it's utility doubling as a get out of jail free card with infiltrator's arrow. It is also a great weapon to pull larger groups of enemies together and stacking bloodlust for when you switch back to p/p.

 

Not really, with PP, you can keep on 25 might most of the time even with scholar.

Ofc you if you're confident you'd never get hit or killed, change to the more dm option.