Grimjack.8130

??????????????

fire weaver is more than fine into condi rev, so idk what ur on about, but also support tempest loves fighting condi revs lol

the only condi builds that arent underperforming are like, condi rev and burn guard

if anything most condi specs need a small buff cause of the duration and rune nerfs ended up being a bit too much

forums btw

if u dont know when a disabling shot is coming, are u sure ur playing the game? make sure you're looking at the screen, doesnt need a casttime to dodge it :)

edit: i hate dh btw

You guys are all missing the point, I disengaged from the 2 fights both times, and I still almost downed or did down even after I created enough space to not get hit by any/many pistol autos, repeaters, or shadow strikes. Thats where my issue is, if a Thief wants to instant steal on me, to force me off by doing 5k damage off it, thats great, more power to you, I'm cool with that, but when a Steal is doing 10k+ damage, theres an issue. This is before Venoms from hits, or Deadly Ambition procs, or anything like that, thats the issue.

@"Chaith.8256" My personal feelings on it are while its probably intended to be a full rez, that isn't really how it plays out, it plays out much more like Geyser and Blood Well, so thats how I would balance it. If it was a 2second throw animation that instantly rezzed, even as a toolbelt I would balance it as a Signet rez or Glyph Rez, the functional difference between Blood Well and Signet of Undeath is too major to ignore in my personal opinion.

If one did take the road of turning it into an instant rez like the others IMO is much more fair, healthy, and it probably makes the skill better than it is currently, seems like a win win.

elixir r doesnt pulse every second, so its more like 7s every second

it should obviously be put in line with the rest of the pulsing rezzes, personally i dont play ranger and i think SnR is fine as its a pretty weak skill, and rangers utils are pretty important so you do drop ALOT

all full rezzes like glyph, signets, banner, rez spirits are fine tho, dont touch them, its a player skill issue when people let these go through everytime

how to ruin spvp 101

typical forum user thinks knights is bad because tanky builds can still do damage on knights, not that tanky builds become way too tanky on knights

1v1 class not on a node, ele is def up there, but in terms of sidenoding nothing comes close to holo/ranger rn

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.

>

> Tried it, Staff Tempest still does more damage than Staff Core Ele by about 5%. Which is ironic really, since it's Overload Fire + Transcendental Tempest + the occasional Overload Air vs. the entire Air trait line.

>

5% is very close and proved my point?

holy moly this is the worst thread ive read on the forums

ranger, somehow, i dont really know the specifics

holosmith, mortar and tankiness, explosive entrance is too spammy and punishes other players for playing well vs the holo (constantly being above 90)

necro, shroud generation, deathmagic promotes bad gameplay at low and average levels, is lich overperforming? maybe?, nerf downstate necro xd

ele, lr

rev, condi rev mallyx elite, tbh id nerf renegade and jalis unironically promotes super bad gameplay and could easily see play in a super unhealthy bunker comp, power is okay, give it slight shaves very little tho

thief, shadowshot is kinda busted still, its not underperforming but sidenoders areoverperforming making it seem weaker than it is, shadow portal sees a ton of play, idk if it needs a nerf though, id try to make DA better than SA again for sure though

mes, signet of illusions i personally dislike and think it promotes bad and good gameplay at the same time, the actual stacks of conditions need to be addressed more so than anything else, the damage is fine, the burst is less so(give it its dodge back)

warrior, fine dont touch it

guardian is also fine tbh

remove berserker + knights amulet tho

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > @"Stallic.2397" said:

> > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > > > @"Stallic.2397" said:

> > > When you spec Tempest as an Elementalist, you gain overloads, Warhorn weapon skills, and certain utility skills. _What do you lose?_ Name something please. If you can't name something then there is no trade off, simple as that.

> >

> > I'm telling you what they lose. Either you're not listening or you think it's current trade off is not enough. The time tables and weapon rotations of Tempest are so different from Core Ele, that's the trade-off. Tempest loses every core build that made Core Ele viable because it plays so differently. Tempest has to go into battle in such a different way, it doesn't need a heavy trade-off.

> >

> > Honestly, this just shows a lack of understanding of what a trade-off ~~~~is. If you knew the PURPOSE OF A TRADE-OFF, you would know that Tempest already has one. Read that again please.

> >

> > Anet introduced Elites and told everyone, it changes that class. It's not an upgrade, it's a difference of playstyle. The term TRADE-OFF didn't become of use until much after the release of HOT, when people realized certain elites only upgraded core. They didn't change the playstyle.

> >

> > Trade-offs aren't nerfs. It's not something solely to be lost. Read that again as well. Trade offs are interventions to change the way the class is played. Tempest didn't receive any further trade-offs after release, because it didn't need them.

>

> Unless you can claim that the time tables and weapon rotations of Tempest are somehow _worse_ than core Ele, it's not a trade off. "Different" is not enough (and neither is "harder to learn", unless it is so much harder that it becomes a genuine barrier, which it clearly isn't right now). And there is no difference in playstyle _if you don't want a difference_. There is nothing stopping you from playing Tempest the same way as core Ele if you want. You don't do that because there's something clearly superior to that (i.e. using the options made available by Tempest).

>

> You are not understanding why it is important to have a trade-off or even what a trade-off is.

>

> If there is no trade-off, everyone would simply play the version that's better. There's no reason not to. After the release of HoT, how often did you ever see anyone play core Ele instead of Tempest? Why would anyone do that anyway? Note this didn't apply to certain other elite specializations like Reaper & Berserker (even today core Necro/Warrior have applications). But did you ever see anyone play core Ele? If you are honest you'll acknowledge the answer is "no" (exception applies to people who don't own HoT).

>

> You are right though that trade-offs aren't nerfs. There are ways to give Tempest a trade-off that doesn't involve nerfing Tempest. An obvious one is to give core Ele some flashy new skill that they lose when they spec Tempest. Another way is to give a bonus for every non-elite specialization line that is traited, with a major boost at 3. In both cases there is a genuine loss if you choose Tempest. If you want to do it without buffs that's also possible: make it clear that everyone is expected to trait an elite specialization and that core builds are intended to be inferior (the consequences of which are off-topic).

>

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > Which mode is this complaint even about?

> >

> > At HoT launch , Tempest was considered the worst elite spec by far...

> > Right now only chrono is really bad post nerf due to clone reliance, but in PvE people are still using it. There was a time where chrono was dominant and even in PVP we had bunker chrono and boonshare in WvW.

> > Berserker is in a decent place for PvE players but not so much for competitive modes (mainly due to headbutt and berserk losing 300 toughness), dragonhunter is decent in all modes, druid is in a bad place in competitive modes but is wanted for instanced PvE, reaper is in a decent place in WvW and despite all the complaints from PvErs if your quickness uptime isn't stellar reaper is more self sufficient, scrapper is relevant in WvW but not so much in PvE, daredevil is relevant everywhere, and lastly herald is relevant in WvW/PVP but not so much in PVE (even if it is super consistent as far as damage due to 100% fury uptime).

> >

> > I'm really surprised this thread is still going.

> >

> > What can core ele do better? Anything damage related because you can run a 3rd damage traitline (as stated above) which means added damage over tempest. Overloads without fresh air do less overall than a core ele , because the cooldowns on the second skill on a elementalist skillbar is generally low.

> >

> > As stated above, if you run fire+water+air , fire+air+arcane , or fire+water+arcane you have more damage modifiers than tempest and you will not be at the mercy of a 7% modifier that only occurs for mere seconds after overloads. Any of the permutations running fire (power and 10% outgoing bonus) , water (two 10% outgoing bonuses), air (ferocity bonuses and fury generation), and arcane (boon generation on attunement swap and a damage modifier depending on boons) will have higher damage due to not being locked out of an attunement and also having higher modifiers.

> >

> > What can tempest do better? Aura share , heal with auras, and spam overload air (earth+fire if condi). The very idea of not overloading or using shouts is just building an inferior core ele.

> >

> >

>

> This isn't a complaint about current game balance. It's about game design and applies regardless of what the state of balance is.

>

> Are you really claiming that core Ele can do more damage than Tempest "because you can run a 3rd damage traitline"? If so, prove it. Here's Tempest hitting 36k DPS against the training golem with both [power ](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/power/)& [condition ](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/condition/)builds. Upload some screenshots/videos of you doing more as a core Ele.

Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Look at how many builds began using Demo/Paladin/Knight/Resistance/Dolyak, directly after the big nerf. I'm certainly not crying OP at this stuff, but I really think it's important that all of the current participating forum users are able to identify to the degree that this high defensive value stacking is effecting the game right now and how it is enabling certain specs to do things that they probably shouldn't be doing. **This way, maybe forum users can give some better feedback, rather than crying for nerfs in the wrong places.** <- That is honestly the only thing I am concerned about, is all the bad feedback lately.

>

> The thing I find fascinating is how many people complained/complain about it being a condi meta, when condition damage is what leaps as being the first response to someone stacking toughness like that. The ranger's condi clears are enough, but really nothing to write home about compared to some other classes builds, so it seems silly to approach it from that nerf angle. But the condi builds that are in the meta aren't really working vs it despite working against many other common things. Would a condi build that is more mobile than your typical condi herald/symbol brand need to emerge, or?

theres actually not enough condi in the meta, tbh i kinda want condi thief back in the game to check the knights amulet and lr weaver

make the fields weaker and make it akin to lb1 on ranger, the closer you are the less damage the farther you are the more damage, 500 damage in melee, 3k at 1200 onwards

if you guys dont think mortar is a problem idk, maybe in low tiers its not that bad but in high level gameplay its one of the biggest issues rn, that says alot.

is this what i sound like when i talk about ele?

idk dude im a pver and im here for shinies and im better than 99.9% of pvpers, maybe its the individual and not what gamemode the person comes from

I actually really enjoy pets doing damage when the Ranger invests alot into it with a big combo with We Heal As One/Elite to give it tons of might fury and quickness. But when a Pet hits for 3-6k on autos and 6k+ on f2s with almost no set up, you'd think there might be an issue there, but I guess not.

zerker should also be removed

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> Btw LR or Shock Aura also triggers when not attacking, there must be a bug or something, i got stunned and LR application by it several times without even attacking. I also see no reason for Shock Aura to be undodgeable, it interrupts and completely neutralize Lightning Reflexes on Ranger (because of the useless dmg application on that skill but because of the bug maybe even without that). But a stunbreak and dodge skill should not be neutralized by such braindead spammable hard cc stuff that procs such a big reward without even the need to interrupt anything. When good visible lines on the ground with decent casttime like Guardians staff cc skill (Line of Warding) or Ele staff skill on air (Static Field) are undodgeable is ok but not on instant applied Shock Aura.

deal as long as u remove undodgable slick shoes cause its also instant cast :)

this weapon is busted, imagine having the best stunbreaks in the game, the best weapon in the game, and having kill potential on 90% of the classes in the game and thinking ur class isnt OP

ele was the worst class at pof release, but then again this is a crab fear thread so i dont expect it to be accurate

weakness effect condis as well, jsut in a bit of a different way, since classes cant crit as much they lose out on their on crit condi trait that some have.

weakness as a condi is fine, it just needs to be on less skills and traits etc

>You're doing bad and dishonest comparisons.

>brings up utilities and other weapons

yep this is the forums alright