Grimjack.8130

I think there is alot of misinformation when people talk about skill in this game, personally a majority of the vocal population I encounter via in game, reddit, or the forums tend to think Condition builds take less skill. They give different reasons, they give the same reasons, or they don't give a reason and just say: "Conditions are easy, stop making excuses for yourself" (something I expect to see alot in this thread.)

Reasons include but are not limited to; Conditions are passive gameplay, condition builds have a ton more stats, conditions are more spammable, and conditions have less counterplay. Some of these reasons do have some aspect of truth to them and some don't.

Condition builds can't be more passive than power builds, thats just not how this game works. For example, it takes one dodge to dodge a Warrior Axe F1, it also takes one dodge to dodge a Warrior LB5, or a Mirage Axe 3 (more on mirage and mesmer later). The point each skill does alot of damage and only takes 1 dodge to completely avoid, the only difference is the way they do damage, one is right as you get hit, and one is over a window of time after you get hit. Condition builds DO have a tendency to have more residual fields though, fields that pulse, that as a result might require more than one dodge to completely avoid, power classes also have these fields like Acid Bomb on Engineer but not as frequent, this is however 100% negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Condition builds can and most likely will get more stats than a power build, this is due to people playing 5 stats on power builds and 4-5 on condi builds. For power you tend to run Power, Precision, Ferocity, Toughness, and Vitality (sometimes boon-duration) and for condi builds you typically run Condition Damage, Toughness, Vitality, and Condition Duration, sometimes Precision. This is a pretty fair point. Trailblazer gives you exactly the 4 stats you main on condi builds, power builds get that luxury with Marauder if they don't want toughness, but it's pretty impractical to run full Marauder, unlike running full Trailblazer. **Being a better player, having more skill, will let you win versus a worse player with more total or efficient stats.**

Condition builds tend to run a considerable amount of toughness because of how good Trailblazer's is as a stat.

Condition builds being more spammy is a weird argument, does it refer to the auto attack doing more, and since auto attacks can be spammed without recoil its more spammable? Or is it referring to condition builds having more skills that do good things, or lots of damage? I personally won't be looking into each auto attack chain to see if there are more good condition auto chains than power, nor will I be looking into each skill each weapon has to see if the typical meta condi weapons are more efficient or not, I think it possibly could be the case for the second point though. Does ranged make a build more spammable? Are conditions more ranged? Alot of questions need to be answered before we can truly get an answer to this.

Now some of this last point has already been addressed, a large portion of counterplay between power and condi skills are 1-1 ratios, if you didn't dodge the Warrior Axe F1, you get hit for 10k, same with not dodging the Mesmer Axe 3, it also would've only taken one dodge to avoid. But thats not where this point ends, theres a ton of condi cleanse in this game, so why do people say they don't have enough cleanse? Well once again there are a couple reasons, one is people tend to not run it, or not as much.

Some roaming spellbreakers for example tend to run around with a cleansing sigil, 1 utility for resistance, the discipline weapon swap cleanse, and resistance on Full Counter and think thats plenty, whether it is or isn't won't be debated. These warriors have no problem with other warriors, they're happy with their build til they run into a Scourge or a Mirage, they fight once, and the next time they fight, the Warrior decides to slot more Resistance, or condi cleanse. Why does the warrior not think that the build needs to be better at fighting condition builds and always have that extra cleanse on? Some people have no problem with counter comping whatever you're fighting, so that might be one of the reasons they have.

The point that example is trying to make is people spec to fight power builds, because they can just toss out "Condition builds are easy" if they lose with a bad build. There are exceptions though, like always, Mirage in WvW is pretty insane with the 40% dodge food, it closes alot of the gaps that Mirages have without that food. There isn't enough cleanse to deal with that.

Mesmer has had something like this for roaming pretty frequently, and now Condi Mesmer is instantly thought of as skill-less. I personally hate that the community accepts countercomping against what you're fighting.

But even then thats not where the condi and power counterplay debate ends. Condition builds have a tendency to be able to shut down boons better than power ones, and boons are very relevant nowadays. Does having an aspect of boon control really tilt the scale that far in the direction of Condition builds?

So its your fault when you get hit by a Mirage's Axe 3, but you never get hit by a warrior's GS F1, and its your fault that you never see roamers playing condi, so the first time you do you die with a build on you that runs a pathetic amount of answers to conditions.

Maybe we'll get some decent conversations going.

Maybe we'll get those same people who refuse to explain themselves saying the same 3 words. "**__Condi is easy.__**"

This sounds so dope actually.

Weaver never dies to Power Mirage btw.

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > A sell tab would be awesome or ban sellers. Its kinda dumb that you cant sell pvp but can pve. If anything pvp is probably harder to carry. There is no difference in my eyes. Either way the buyer is not doing the content as intended.

>

> You cannot sell pvp because it is a competition and this would give you unfair advantage

Very wrong, you can sell anything in PvP as long as you don't account share, wintrade, or real money trade in the process. Same goes for anything in the game, if you don't break the few rules about selling things, you can sell anything.

The one from yesterday never ended due to getting bugged by the patch. New teams can't join that specific AT and the teams inside can't queue up as anything else.

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> This impacted dungeons the most, some dungeons have lots of these.

Hey Ben, what aspect of DR in dungeons did you remove/change? As far as I can tell, nothing has changed.

The reading comprehension in this thread is nonexistant. He's not talking about the Waterlogged stacks that you instantly die from. I don't know how people even considered he was talking about that. In the very opening comment he talked about "2% damage per stack", you already know Waterlogged doesn't do that.

Old dungeons have the appeal because they're very unique and different. Now that ANet knows how to make 5 man content, new dungeons will be completely different, so no I don't want new dungeons.

Wait, you actually did it? The mad lad Ben. (edit hah jokes, DR still a thing in all dungeons)

Hi, dungeons are over 50 gold an hour, better gold than any open world farm, and 96 farming unless you have Fractal God.

I've said this before on Reddit, but I'll say it again, the problem with dungeons is not them themselves, but the community's opinions on them, there are a couple fixes that'd go a long way though. Removing diminishing returns (the non path-specific DR) and adding back the current dungeon recipes that are bugged and currently don't drop are the two biggest changes that need to be made.

Herald is pretty much the same as it as before, a bit harder to play, although easier to do damage.

RIP Condi Herald though.

1 All rez skills operate this way, its probably intended as it hasn't changed, and it provides counterplay because healing is reduced by Poison.

2 Undeath is the way they wanted the skill to be called, not everything has to be a word.

3 Thats really not a bug, thats just way the skill operates.

Also, the healing is not split.

> @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > I'm still puzzled at the fact that Scourge is an issue but Weaver isn't. I feel like I just need to list the where every class is meta at this point, because no one seems to know.

> > One person said Scourge is meta at Gorseval, complaining about a false reality won't help your cause.

> >

>

> The thing to remember when doing such list is that there are two relevant stats. Top dps that represent speed runs and top average dps that represent the average run. Depending on which one you pick you get weaver occasionally on second place rather than first.

>

> Otherwise a relative good summery of the top dps class for each raid boss.

>

Speed running should be the only factor that matters, if you don't care about speed running, you shouldn't care about a class outdoing other classes only by a small margin of time. Note I said time and not DPS.

I'm still puzzled at the fact that Scourge is an issue but Weaver isn't. I feel like I just need to list the where every class is meta at this point, because no one seems to know.

One person said Scourge is meta at Gorseval, complaining about a false reality won't help your cause.

Vale Guardian : Scourge

Gorseval : Weaver

Sabetha : Scourge

Slothasor : Weaver

Trio : Anything?

Matt : Mirage

Escort : Anything?

Keep Construct : Weaver

Xera : Weaver UNLESS you slow DPS post 50% to avoid glitches, then Scourge.

Cairn : Mirage (CM too)

Mursatt Overseer : Mirage/Weaver (CM = Scourge)

Samarog : Weaver (CM too)

Deimos : Weaver (CM = Weaver/Scourge)

Soulless Horror : Scourge (CM too)

River : See Trio and Escort, see a theme yet?

Statues : See River, how about now?

Dhuum : Scourge (CM too)

Now that that's out of the way, here is a list of what would be meta where if Epidemic got changed, and everything else stayed the same.

Vale Guardian : Weaver

Gorseval : Weaver

Sabetha : Mirage/Weaver

Slothasor : Weaver

Matt : Mirage

Keep Construct : Weaver

Xera : Weaver

Cairn : Mirage (CM too)

Mursatt Overseer : Weaver/Mirage (CM = Weaver)

Samarog : Weaver (CM too)

Deimos : Weaver (CM too)

Soulless Horror : Mirage (CM too)

Dhuum : Weaver (CM = Weaver/Mirage)

Wow, that sure looks healthier than the first list. /s

The game is quite balanced right now, if you choose to run something like Holosmith instead of a Weaver on a Weaver fight you get close to the same results. If you run Weaver instead of a Scourge on a Scourge fight you get close to the same results. Everything is quite balanced, Epidemic has just been in the spotlight for a very long time now, for no real reason.

Yeah, no. If they rework dungeons, it'll most likely be the same people doing them unless they're too easy, then the current dungeon population has no where else to go. I know plenty of groups that do dungeon tours weekly, and a chunk do them daily.

Dungeons are currently the most profitable piece of content in the game, not Istan, not 96 fractal farming, not whatever you think is better. Dungeons are in a fine spot, the community's opinion on them isn't.

Condi Herald in small scale or zergs is plain and simply a worse Scourge. They both work, they both do the exact same things, help "clear" conditions, remove boons, and massive AOE condi downstate pressure. I've been playing Viper Herald since the Abyssal Chill rework, and its been great in duels and outnumbered. You have access to almost every condition in the game, and some incredibly long duration conditions even after the change. Overall nothing really relevant has changed, and I only expect it to get better.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQRApX8un3geNeNuNmL0bybyeSNieUeUeVuN0lylysS+hmUmUWViT0uyuyxylTlxe93vXNjOKJNgDWA-jViHABCcwEEf/hafAAMp8jOlgkr/he1fC4EAAwRMIAwBw4Fv4FPY8xHf8xHviP+4jP+4jP+4JFQmLrA-w

This is my Viper Herald build. You can barely look at it and you'll see how stupid the class can get. 25% and most of the time 50% endurance recharge, tons of free toughness while having upkeeps, almost 100% stability uptime, 3 damage reduction traits, plus more, including a FOUR second Taunt.

Just because you use Epidemic, doesn't mean you're getting the same value off of it as another group using Epidemic at that same fight, here are some examples.

For Vale Guardian you can get 2 Epidemics fully casted and bounced back to Vale Guardian before the first set of seekers despawn, from my experience, most groups tend to only do 1 cast of Epidemic on each set, as they're a little slow on the first Epidemic cast and that means it won't be off cooldown fast enough to bounce the 2nd cast back. Some groups also kill some of the seekers mid cast, which means whoever was targeting a Seeker that died gets no damage from it (a dead enemy has no conditions.)

For Sabetha the fight depends so much on the overall group DPS, you can miss a large amount of the Epidemics off of Sappers/other adds if you have very high DPS as she'll rarely actually be on the platform, which means you get less value, because you get less Epidemics, don't get me wrong its still great regardless and it would be even if you never epi'd off of the Sappers/Additional Adds.

Using Scourges on Xera is rather difficult depending on the group. Most White Mantle mobs die very quickly, and if you end up targeting one that does die quickly for Epi Back, you'll most likely miss it, as it will die too quickly, although this can be nullified by the speed of the Epi Back player. Phantasms have an incredibly large amount of health, which means you won't have them die before casting it, but if they stay off of the group long enough, they might not die at all, and thats really bad because Epidemic spreads to the closest targets first, if either set of mobs spawn with a couple of Phantasms still alive, you might end up targetting a mob farther than the Phantasms, which could lead you to bounce nothing back, if you do end up targetting the Phantasm this time it might die before the projectile lands on Xera, its a huge case by case basis.

The only fight in WIng 4 where Epi bouncing is good is MO CM and Deimos CM, its BIS at MO CM, and slower than Weavers on Deimos CM, although much safer for most groups.

Soulless Horror is probably the hardest fight to coordinate Epidemic on out of all the fights, first and most importantly the Dead needs to not die in a bad spot, some druids are fast enough to let the Epi Out cast right as the Dead spawns, some aren't, which drastically reduces the chance of you hitting your Epidemic back. If they push the Dead too far away, it won't have any targets for the Epi Back, and some druids push it too fast where you miss your Epi Out. If you delay Epidemic to when its already pushed, the Dead very well could die before the projectile lands back on Desmina, although this is also a case by case basis if you're fast enough.

Dhuum CM is a very hard encounter for a vast majority of the raiders in this game, running pure Condi DPS can really make the Pre-Event hard if you're a tad slow, even considering casting Epidemic to the Messengers/Echo and back to the Enforcers. Dhuum CM also has the highest skill cap of using Epidemic, as you can control the Echo if everyone in your group is on the same page, which could lead to you almost casting Epi every 10 seconds rather than what most groups get, around every 20+ seconds. The hardest part about Dhuum CM will always be the Ender's Echo, and the level of DPS you can get out of Scourge there doesn't mean its not a challenge.

If new bosses get negatively affected by Epi Bouncing more than the 5 (7 if you count CMs) fights you currently run it on, then it becomes an actual issue, which I don't think it is right now. I'd like to see it stay until then.

I don't know how you can not call Wing 3 old content, when its been out for so long. Age describes how long something has been a thing. Xera has been a thing for a long time now. Its better now than it was before, we can all stop complaining now.

For pure healing purposes, Renegade is unmatched. The order is something along the lines of Renegade, Tempest, Engineer, Firebrand, and then Druid. I'm not counting anything else they do, this is purely Healing Per Second. Including whatever else they do, Tempest is # 1 for support purposes.

They made it a lower cooldown because there was a "bug" if you had high DPS at 20% and 10%, and the same person got the bubble in a row, it wouldn't be off cooldown and it'd be a wipe. It's a good change, even if it makes the mechanic as a whole easier, it wasn't a hard one to begin with.

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > > > Any one here petitioning for Epidemic to get nerfed send me their logs of their Necros epi bouncing? Apparently its easy, so show me that its as easy as you say it is.

> > > > If you don't have logs of Epi bouncing, why are you wanting it to get nerfed? Its not hindering your raid experience, because you're not running it. People will run it if they enjoy it at the end of the day.

> > > >

> > > > Look at Snow Crows, they know Scourge is optimal at Vale Guardian, theres no debating that, but they still run Weavers and Holosmiths because they enjoy it more.

> > > Anet has all the data, no need to proof anything to strangers here. I see no reason to share dps logs with strangers either since they contain all the account names of people.

> > > Since you are apparently from MnF you should know that epidemic is quite an overperforming skill, are you scared your speed clear tactic gets nerfed?

> > >

> > > Personally I think since I do not play any DPS roles in raids I have the most neutral and unbiased perspective humanly possible on this issue.

> >

> > Do you use Epidemic in your raids or do you not? If you don't it doesn't affect you in any way, so if you were truly unbiased you wouldn't care.

> > There are 4 fights Scourges or Epidemic is used, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, Xera, and Soulless Horror. If you nerf Epidemic, 3 out of those 4 fights, you would run Weavers on, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, and Xera. Right now you could run Weavers on those fights already and get good/the next best results you can. I recognize Dhuum CM is a thing, but most people don't do it weekly, or most likely even more than once.

> >

> > The question isn't "Is Epidemic is too strong?", its "Is it unhealthy for the game?" Right now its healthy for the game, otherwise you'd run into Weavers on those 3 fights, and Scourges no where.

>

> Nah its not healthy for the game if a class overperforms by 7-10k dps on a boss just because of one utility skill.

You remove Scourge it means you run Weaver on every single fight except for Matt and Soulless Horror. You keep Scourge, and you run it on all fights but 4. You're arguing for a class to be nerfed, when its the class keeping the game's variety up. A class can be too strong, and healthy for the game, right now thats where Scourge is.

I want to know if your group, or your pugs you join, run Epidemic, because if they don't why do you care? Its not affecting you, neither would a buff or a nerf to Epidemic.

I'd wager that a majority of groups don't run Scourge on those 4 fights anyways, even though its clearly stronger than any other composition.

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > Any one here petitioning for Epidemic to get nerfed send me their logs of their Necros epi bouncing? Apparently its easy, so show me that its as easy as you say it is.

> > If you don't have logs of Epi bouncing, why are you wanting it to get nerfed? Its not hindering your raid experience, because you're not running it. People will run it if they enjoy it at the end of the day.

> >

> > Look at Snow Crows, they know Scourge is optimal at Vale Guardian, theres no debating that, but they still run Weavers and Holosmiths because they enjoy it more.

> Anet has all the data, no need to proof anything to strangers here. I see no reason to share dps logs with strangers either since they contain all the account names of people.

> Since you are apparently from MnF you should know that epidemic is quite an overperforming skill, are you scared your speed clear tactic gets nerfed?

>

> Personally I think since I do not play any DPS roles in raids I have the most neutral and unbiased perspective humanly possible on this issue.

Do you use Epidemic in your raids or do you not? If you don't it doesn't affect you in any way, so if you were truly unbiased you wouldn't care.

There are 4 fights Scourges or Epidemic is used, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, Xera, and Soulless Horror. If you nerf Epidemic, 3 out of those 4 fights, you would run Weavers on, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, and Xera. Right now you could run Weavers on those fights already and get good/the next best results you can. I recognize Dhuum CM is a thing, but most people don't do it weekly, or most likely even more than once.

The question isn't "Is Epidemic is too strong?", its "Is it unhealthy for the game?" Right now its healthy for the game, otherwise you'd run into Weavers on those 3 fights, and Scourges no where.

Any one here petitioning for Epidemic to get nerfed send me their logs of their Necros epi bouncing? Apparently its easy, so show me that its as easy as you say it is.

If you don't have logs of Epi bouncing, why are you wanting it to get nerfed? Its not hindering your raid experience, because you're not running it. People will run it if they enjoy it at the end of the day.

Look at Snow Crows, they know Scourge is optimal at Vale Guardian, theres no debating that, but they still run Weavers and Holosmiths because they enjoy it more.

> @"Blackfish.7349" said:

> No res, no stomp, not only gyro but the scrapper itself. Impossible to play with it at competitive level till the bug gets fixed.

You're wrong, the reason you can't stomp is if you have the downed targeted the game will always make you use the Function Gyro before you can manually rez/stomp. You need to detarget whoever it is, then you can rez/stomp.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > I barely played Chrono in raids opposed to other classes, and I could distort everything but greens on VG. People act like distorting anything was extremely hard, it wasn't.

> >

> > Trust me I'm upset I might have to do greens on VG now, but if good things come from it (being better balance) I'm okay with it. Lets save the anger for when ArenaNet doesn't make the best of the chance they have now.

>

> Your quickness and alacrity up time was over 90%? If so, congratulations, you are better than 90% of the chronos I've seen in PUG groups. Then again, how many fights where you distort besides VG was there?

>

> Fights where you would distort:

> - VG green

> - Gorseval slam and retaliation

> - Sloth shake

> - Samarog wave

> - Deimos circle attack or as cover for aegis against strip from tears

>

> Which fights were you distorting on if not at VG?

Gorseval Slams and Blacks. Sloth Shakes. KC Slams. Samarog swipes and spears on CM. Slams on Deimos. Hell I learned to distort the Hurricane/Vortex Slash on Soulless Horror in less than a day.