kash.9213

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > > The thing is, you can buff numbers in PvE and nobody cares. The mobs won't get upset and claim cheese or foul play, that your build is OP or FoTM, or whatever. D/D is a single-target kit, though. The point is tempo-driven, repeatable, quick bursts of damage to a single target. > > > > You can buff numbers all you want in the competitive modes but it'll be either OP or still trash because DB and the lack of mobility D/D has is the reason the kit is trash and always has been. Design matters more in competitive, and the reason why D/D is bad in competitive is solely because its design is bad. > > > > > > I'll say MH Dagger is a Single target tool, Dagger/Dagger doesn't have to be. > > > Offhand Dagger 4 does "cleave" through its bounces, that's hardly strictly single target design no? > > > > > > D/P drives Dagger into a more single target focused kit, with a single target gap closer, pistol 4 single target disrupt, and pistol 5 is kinda a general use utility which is useful anywhere. > > > > > > Why not move D/D into the direction of brawling, and of close quarters combat, over strictly single target design which D/P already offers. > > > > > > I know what D/D users want : yu guys just want a reliable gap closer so yu can pull off CnD Backstabs easier, but wanna do so without using a slot for Inf Signet or gap closing with Heartseeker. (which, surprise surprise, all COST SOMETHING) > > > > > > Considering the fact that Shadowshot can already do just as much damage as a Backstab in competitive these days, what's stopping people from just continuing with D/P then, since Shadowshot is just way more reliable, plus yu have consistent Stealth access with D/P 5 >2 > > > > > > Do yu guys really just wanna move D/D into the same direction as D/P? > > > I don't think it's really healthy for Thief kit to have multiple forms of the same sort of deal, already ignoring the fact a good amount of thief skills are rarely used at all because of their Ini system just letting them use whatever they want as much as they want depending on the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It could be a 900 distance roll that cleaves a path. An evade on top of that might be much so maybe let it recharge a small amount of endurance on crit or vigor. It's not about having a gap closer, it's about being able to help out a team, and that includes in pve unless you want to be a shortbow blast bot. It doesn't need to be some instant port, it just needs to allow you to budget to be able to move with a group. Try WvW d/d without a port utility, you end up just waddling over and getting there just in time to be late unless you want weapon cd more often. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just giving my opinion on what that threshold looks like in my head to let dagger/dagger keep up with other kits a little more. > > For what ini price? While keeping in mind sb5 is 8 ini, this one would be probably at least as much. I'd say even making it like warrior's whirlwind attack would be potentially too much unless it gets its own ability cd (but it won't, because that's not how anet wants to balance thief) or some... well, pretty oppressive ini cost. Like always with utility skills, pamability is the problem to keep in mind here. > > Sure, maybe it wouldn't be such a huge deal in pve if it was intended to be an aoe attack (which I still disagree with btw), but the idea of a thief zooming through mobs back-and-forth like some hyper-active evasive lawn mower just doesn't speak to me for some reason. I'd rather have a roll evade than damage. I'd start a skill out with all the toppings to see what kind of stuff we can do with it then launch it with like 900 range roll with maybe a projectile block and Whirl or something or maybe 600 range with either evade or some damage or control.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > It could be a 900 distance roll that cleaves a path. An evade on top of that might be much so maybe let it recharge a small amount of endurance on crit or vigor. > > If yur talking about 400~600 range, it would still have been acceptable. > > > 900 range evade gapcloser? > And with Endurance Regen/Vigor too? > Also deals damage? > How on earth did yu come up with this, thinking this is balanced? > > Might as well make it 1200 range. > Nah might as well make it a shadowstep that does AoE damage at the end from 1200 range. > And also deals damage. > And also restores Ini on hit how bout it? > > I'm giving up. > Thief mains are just irredeemable and want the world without thinking about balance. > > > > > > > > > I didn't come up with it, you did. You wanted a cleave. Start big, chop it up to something launchable. You need to chill the fuck out in your responses though, no one is coming at you like that and you're not getting a grip on what people are explaining to you, politely.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > The thing is, you can buff numbers in PvE and nobody cares. The mobs won't get upset and claim cheese or foul play, that your build is OP or FoTM, or whatever. D/D is a single-target kit, though. The point is tempo-driven, repeatable, quick bursts of damage to a single target. > > You can buff numbers all you want in the competitive modes but it'll be either OP or still trash because DB and the lack of mobility D/D has is the reason the kit is trash and always has been. Design matters more in competitive, and the reason why D/D is bad in competitive is solely because its design is bad. > > I'll say MH Dagger is a Single target tool, Dagger/Dagger doesn't have to be. > Offhand Dagger 4 does "cleave" through its bounces, that's hardly strictly single target design no? > > D/P drives Dagger into a more single target focused kit, with a single target gap closer, pistol 4 single target disrupt, and pistol 5 is kinda a general use utility which is useful anywhere. > > Why not move D/D into the direction of brawling, and of close quarters combat, over strictly single target design which D/P already offers. > > I know what D/D users want : yu guys just want a reliable gap closer so yu can pull off CnD Backstabs easier, but wanna do so without using a slot for Inf Signet or gap closing with Heartseeker. (which, surprise surprise, all COST SOMETHING) > > Considering the fact that Shadowshot can already do just as much damage as a Backstab in competitive these days, what's stopping people from just continuing with D/P then, since Shadowshot is just way more reliable, plus yu have consistent Stealth access with D/P 5 >2 > > Do yu guys really just wanna move D/D into the same direction as D/P? > I don't think it's really healthy for Thief kit to have multiple forms of the same sort of deal, already ignoring the fact a good amount of thief skills are rarely used at all because of their Ini system just letting them use whatever they want as much as they want depending on the situation. > > > > It could be a 900 distance roll that cleaves a path. An evade on top of that might be much so maybe let it recharge a small amount of endurance on crit or vigor. It's not about having a gap closer, it's about being able to help out a team, and that includes in pve unless you want to be a shortbow blast bot. It doesn't need to be some instant port, it just needs to allow you to budget to be able to move with a group. Try WvW d/d without a port utility, you end up just waddling over and getting there just in time to be late unless you want weapon cd more often. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just giving my opinion on what that threshold looks like in my head to let dagger/dagger keep up with other kits a little more.

All these points make kind of one larger point of our characters hardly existing in this game. - WvW isn't open world pvp but when prime time is burned out this mode isn't self propelling enough to warrant staying logged in when the action is done. You can roam around if you want but what's the payoff of content to the amount of time you're looking for something to do? - There's no feeling of our characters belonging to our game mode maps and our characters don't live there, even the WvW specific gear is an insult (they still haven't given the light effect from our Mistforged chest piece it's own dye channel) compared to other modes. - But then we're also disconnected from the core game, living story, and expansions. We get almost no aesthetic, music, or story from the rest of the game, and the rest of the game gets no mention or news from our corner. So our characters really don't belong anywhere and we don't get to enjoy downtime exploration like we would in an open world mode or game. PvE should fulfill that need for us but WvW it's basically a separate game that's not complete. - We get a forgotten promise of Alliances, but even that might scrap any sense of community our servers have currently. It's not just guilds who make up a game community, I think the strength of my server if there ever was any has been in our pubs, floaters, and havok commanders. But none of that matters either once prime time is done.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > But then again I also don't like the "why?" justification, because I disagree that every weapon should be able to "check all the boxes" in its usabilility/utility. Dagger clearly doesn't need some extended cleave to have a purpose. > > But D/D clearly needs more usage, and a cleave would fit the bill. > S/D has no Cleave. > S/P has a pretty nice Cleave but is a terrible PvE loadout, no one uses it for Raid/Fracts > > Why not give D/D a strong cleave so that it has more use in PvE than CnD > Backstab? > Having more options than just Staff DD in PvE could be nice yu know, it's called having build variety. > > Centered around caster thing isn't hard to imagine. > Just think a 0.5 cast time which cleaves an AoE around the Thief while they evade. > Simple, nothing fancy. > > Triangle AoE is for flavour, yu can close an eye and ignore it if yu want. > > A stronger cleave would be alright, and since you put it in the dual wield slot it won't break other builds, but it still might gas out when extended like staff does. If I could torment everyone I cleave that would help me land some stuff before everyone scatters and I'd have to burn utility cd's again. Part of what makes d/d kind of stale right now is that there's not many secondary mods going off to synergize with except maybe steal health on blind from CnD if you traited in SA.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > I feel like CnD is enough for stealth and would rather be able to intercept a teammate being stomped or pull myself out of an angry blob without Shadowstep always being on cd when I actually need it. I get that the kit doesn't technically need it, but a build with d/d ends up demanding it regardless of how creative we get with traits and all that. Inf signet is going to compete for a slot against condi clear and other stuff I think even with enough stealth around. Can't know until we'd see it play out though, so I could be totally wrong. > > Okay here's the thing which I'm pissed off about with Thief players and their "worries" > **Why do Thief players always look at builds thinking they are entitled to get out of jail free cards which erases their mistakes?** > > People cry hard after SB 5 nerf, because that's one gtfo card lost, people cry after Stab was removed from Bladestorm because that's another aspect of their gtfo card lost. > > What's there to think about regarding Inf Signet in exchange for Agility Signet? Even with busted sigils like Cleansing to be used? Is that truly a problem worth worrying about? > > What about using Staff Vault to peel yurself out of Zergs? > Like that's essentially an evade baked into a 600 range jump. > That's not good enough for yu Thieves? > > Literally could just run D/D with Damage Sigils, and Staff with Cleansing/Energy, coupled with Dash, and yu have yurself a pretty mobile build which can escape anything. > Only thing yu can no longer do, is port up cliffs, but wait, people are definitely gonna hint to me that it's somehow Thieves' RIGHT and THEY DESERVE to port up cliffs. > > Do I need to teach Thieves their own arsenal after being stuck spamming D/P stealth and Shortbow 5 for nearly 4 years? > > It's not about erasing mistakes, it's about having a kit that can hang with other builds and doesn't let your team down too much. It's not a problem to worry about if you don't want to, but are you or anyone else playing dagger/dagger a lot right now? You can make up the stealth with DE-Meld or something pretty easily which wouldn't even really be needed with CnD. I know worrying over a utility slot sounds dumb but you're likely to end up worrying over it for a days if you really try to make dagger/dagger work and not in a yolo gimmick kind of way until you drop it and go back to something else, even with another source of stealth.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > Honestly? > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3 > Goodbye D/P > > #;9 > > I feel like CnD is enough for stealth and would rather be able to intercept a teammate being stomped or pull myself out of an angry blob without Shadowstep always being on cd when I actually need it. I get that the kit doesn't technically need it, but a build with d/d ends up demanding it regardless of how creative we get with traits and all that. Inf signet is going to compete for a slot against condi clear and other stuff I think even with enough stealth around. Can't know until we'd see it play out though, so I could be totally wrong.

In a way I do, but mostly visually, I can't name most stuff in this game off hand. I had to drop the game for awhile at one point and I mostly play while watching tv or something. I always put together a keybind layout that lets me play with the same tactile control of old arcade games so I'm mostly playing for that vibe for however much time I have to log on after work. It's usually not a big deal but I'll always be at a disadvantage next to people who put in the effort to load up different characters and read everything.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Sylvia.4870" said: > > > Death Blossom can grant evasiveness for a short moment and apply some condition damage along with physical damage; however, one is vulnerable after its animation has ended. > > Death Blossom is just a bad skill which finds use on a target that isn't moving and isn't actively biting yur face off. > It's garbage period, and it needs a rework. > > My suggestion is to turn it into a quick evade + cleaving skill. > Simple and does the job. > Nothing more nothing less. > > The unique AoE is just for flavour, but 300-300-300 wide Triangle is pretty generous for cleaving. I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds.

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > > > I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer. > > > > I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from [silent Scope](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Silent_Scope) and the revealed removal from [shadow Meld](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld) are very toxic mechanics at the same level of [Ancient Seeds](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Seeds). > > > > > > > > But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns). > > > > > > > > > > > > As such i will again propose this: > > > > * **First : While stealthed the character enters combat.** This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth. > > > > * Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended [Camouflage ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Camouflage). For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in [Death's Retreat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Retreat) and in [shadow Flare](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Flare) and [shadow Swap](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Swap) which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second. > > > > * Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc... > > > > * Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900. > > > > > > > > And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close. > > > Or you could just tweak **existing mechanics** to actually have some meaning: > > > > > > - Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring). > > > > > > And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds. > > > > > > Simple and effective. > > > > That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea. > > I like your idea. **But deadeye can remove the revealed with [shadow Meld](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld).** That elite has 2 charges. How are you proposing to fix that? Are you thinking now adding a _new reveal_ which can't be removed? And then Anet adds a new stealth which can remove that reveal? That is the equivalent to power creep but for invisibility. > > That's why i thought about camouflage. The idea is to allow the DE to be stealthed for long periods of time with the only requirement to not to perform actions. Also Camouflage would fix the fact you only see the DE attacks when they hit you (with the only exception of [Death Judgement](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Judgment) which can be circumvented by using quickness so the 1 second precast is minimized) . Which means the DE can land an attack like [spotter's Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter%27s_Shot) from invisibility immobilise you then a [Three Round Burst](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Three_Round_Burst) and go back into stealth while you are still bussy cleansing the immob. > > **Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you**, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage. > > That's why i came up wit the idea of the visibility radius for normal stealth. **The point is to give the target the possibility to dodge or perform an action and to understand what happened even if that margin is very slim**. Right now i can one shot some glass eles or mesmers even before they can do anything. > > I see it as a very cheesy mechanic which i understand is very unfun to play against. I think his idea shouldn't have to take Shadow Meld into consideration because that Elite Skill should be replaced. A DE Elite skill should be something that strengthens Kneel stance, like adds some defense and counter measures and allows temporary slow movement in crouch or something. I've also suggested before having some kind of proximity visual filter (only visual, while stealth mechanics still apply) that would force a stealth user to plan their resources and utilities to land a deceptive opener or heavy hit, but then people would need to be cool with something like that being a thing, which they most likely wouldn't be and there would be endless threads about that.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer. > > I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from [silent Scope](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Silent_Scope) and the revealed removal from [shadow Meld](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld) are very toxic mechanics at the same level of [Ancient Seeds](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Seeds). > > > > But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns). > > > > > > As such i will again propose this: > > * **First : While stealthed the character enters combat.** This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth. > > * Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended [Camouflage ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Camouflage). For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in [Death's Retreat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Retreat) and in [shadow Flare](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Flare) and [shadow Swap](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Swap) which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second. > > * Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc... > > * Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900. > > > > And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close. > Or you could just tweak **existing mechanics** to actually have some meaning: > > - Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring). > > And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds. > > Simple and effective. That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

Pangloss bunker that lasted a like half a day.

> @"NuhDah.9812" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"NuhDah.9812" said: > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > Whatever works well with other classes in squads is what will work well floating around a map in different scale fights and groups. People will say thief but what are you trying to do out there? Are you trying to giggle to yourself over very few gimmicky kills or are you trying to fill your bags for materials and rewards? > > > > > > Surely for the gimmicky kills. If he wanted mats and rewards he would have picked another game mode. > > > > WvW is nice if you only have like an hour and half after work. I don't know what roaming brings in but floating and reading the maps can land you in most stuff happening and bags can fill up pretty fast. What other game or game mode can you consistently pull or knock people off of cliffs and walls though? > > Pretty sure if you do a fractal, or a meta event on some map you'll end up with significantly more income than spending time in wvw. Heck, i'm pretty sure if you do your spvp dailies you'll get more value in gold. That being said, it's true that wvw might be more fun to do, so you'll find me there most of the time i'm playing... But I'm surely not doing this for heavy loot bags. Ya, I make enough to gather stuff for a new skin once in awhile and ascended food. Anyone roaming, anyone working siege, or anyone trying to do a variety of stuff besides face planting into blobs have to plan out enough Participation and tag up whatever on the way. I'm like a failed Mandalorian trying to put together my armor and shamefully short in Legendary pieces, which might be partially laziness but everything else cost gold also. I almost wish WvW had bounties or missions or something but fight clubs would get that killed off.

I don't know enough about commanding to weigh in on everything. There needs to be something else to help defenders in place of the claim buff though, kinda feel funneled into lanes unless you can link up with a few other floaters who can work together without a lot of chatter or you can lure your map queue over to something. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing at this point though since there's nothing to do really on most of a map aside from cycling small objectives along those lanes anyway. There's no new story stuff going on when those come out to create new fights in new spots so those lanes are pretty much where we all want to end up with current WvW.

- You mentioned what they might have popped before CnD and whatever stacks they might have. It's not as bad as Starwars Galaxies buff bots but some people are very good at having optimal routes and prep to go out with that might come down to one or two perfect kills. - Think about what is on you at the moment, like the amount of conditions, or the sudden loss of boons. - Think about what quarter your health bar is at and what traits or modifiers can do at different percentages. - In WvW, think about the territory you're in. Some parts of the map will leave you both with your builds only, but some parts will give either them or you a big advantage or disadvantage in stats and defense.

> @"alchemyst.2165" said: > You could run Deadeye for malicious backstab to get the additional damage, or just run **DA/TR/CS**. > If you're looking for max damage, **run executioner in deadly arts, then twin fangs, ferocity trait, and no quarter in critical strikes**. That feels like a good base line build for WvW if someone is trying to land on one, even shortbow auto can cause panic but it can get you focused also which sucks. I like Acro 2-2-3 right now but it's got a different bite and doesn't make use of groups and squads as well.

They can take out Desert BL and put in a water world with huge ships with massive platforms to board and fight on. Then, update the tone of that map with whatever the current or latest story or expansion came out. I like Desert and I'd like traveling if this were open world pvp but with this structure Desert is too much running for normally nothing to do or you're too late.

> @"NuhDah.9812" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > Whatever works well with other classes in squads is what will work well floating around a map in different scale fights and groups. People will say thief but what are you trying to do out there? Are you trying to giggle to yourself over very few gimmicky kills or are you trying to fill your bags for materials and rewards? > > Surely for the gimmicky kills. If he wanted mats and rewards he would have picked another game mode. WvW is nice if you only have like an hour and half after work. I don't know what roaming brings in but floating and reading the maps can land you in most stuff happening and bags can fill up pretty fast. What other game or game mode can you consistently pull or knock people off of cliffs and walls though?

> @"Clownmug.8357" said: > Not sure of the meta but here are some trends I've observed. > > **Thief** > - Usually play power core / Daredevil with dagger + pistol / shortbow or power Deadeye with rifle / dagger + pistol > - Occasionally play condi (any spec) with pistol + dagger / shortbow > - Some power builds will play with sword + pistol or sword + dagger rather than dagger + pistol > - If one plays dual daggers it's usually a gimmicky glass cannon build Dagger/dagger is probably going to be a gimmick but sometimes you just want to get back to Cloak and Dagger and some people really can't get into sword MH. D/d feels so good to play but I can be sure some will know I had to make choices on my Utility bar and can probably get pressured down or outran. I know people get tired of seeing some of the same kits out but other people are going to use what they have on you.

Whatever works well with other classes in squads is what will work well floating around a map in different scale fights and groups. People will say thief but what are you trying to do out there? Are you trying to giggle to yourself over very few gimmicky kills or are you trying to fill your bags for materials and rewards?

Shadow Savior might not be very powerful but it helps pad a few health bars that are slowly getting burned from siege and trash circles along with the main group and squad healer. We have some great team utilities though for covering people and that works best when you cause panic damage as an immediate counter. My third build template I keep open for cheese builds and the one I have there right now for squad fights is SA 1-1-1, Tricks, & CS with shortbow blasts and Smoke Screen. I can be right on top of someone for a fast cover and revive and steeling health from interrupts, crits, and blinds helps flip control of the fight while I'm keeping someone up. Anything on Smoke Screen is nice but Dagger Storm with Runes of Surging can turn it into a fast AOE and burst self heal from Cloaked in Shadow and Surging interrupts.

> @"Bristingr.5034" said: > There's a few reasons why we might go to a private tag and/or use comms: > 1. Typemanding takes a lot of practice, and in the end it's still quicker to verbally provide the commands. > 2. The enemy team might have a spy on the map and is tag watching. > 3. We're running as a Guild-only and don't want any Pugs. > > As for being able to ensure where the other tag is at when they're hidden, I'll generally aim to try and have 1 person from their guild join our squad while they run with their hidden squad (if we're on good relations with that guild), or just have 1 person from our guild (if they want to) run with their squad while staying in ours, so we have that blue dot and it's a quick and general idea of where they're at. It'd be nice if we could have a "tag sharing" option that can only share tags to those who have a tag up or something, but alas, it's my workaround method for now. Those are good reasons, especially 2 when they know what tacs to pull ahead of you or repair walls on you. It would be nice if commanders could get more QoL tools but I don't think there's a huge issue with hidden tags. Most seem pretty good about letting people know what's up on a map anyway and most pubs are full of people who already know what they're doing. Newer players need to learn how to read the maps like we do for story map metas, they'd be able to more safely get around and find where everyone is at.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > > > nah, thief command just isn't a good idea. the tag classes are nearly only pretty bulky things, for a reason. > > > > > > i also never seen that seriously. some clown tags, may have been thieves, but that way u can also tag up on a core ranger... > > > > Of course it's not a good idea, but sometimes a blob aren't being super serious and still clean up. People in game don't take things half as serious as people in this forum who will flat out lie because they're butt hurt about a class instead of a skill or mechanic. > > These are examples of pug tags. > Pug tags are a mish mash of whatevers, and only gather under a Tag in order to attempt a defense or to push an objective. > > Pug tags can be commanded by anyone, and usually they don't do zerg v zerg battles, but just attempt gurriliea warfare, hitting random objectives without trying to engage in a full scale fight. > > In a full scale fight, pug groups just evaporate because of a lack of coordination as well as a hog-posh of professions which make no proper comp. > Guild groups evaporate also, some I really like and are cool people but just can't keep it going, and some pub groups roll up the right people when it gets going. Doesn't mean I'm advocating for one thing or saying it's a better idea, it means that's the way it plays out sometimes regardless of planning and whoever's raging on discord.

> @"suialthor.7164" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > Right, you've never seen. I explained why you're either making that up or why you haven't seen that. At some point you might have to spend some money to transfer or something. > > Overall I'm happy with my server. Sure they ignore objectives at times for blob fights but that is better than some of the alternatives. > > You seem to take it personally that some servers prefer commanders who can provide utility to the group they lead (since they expect everyone to run meta builds). Even in the groups that don't care about meta builds, thief's are not a high priority for the few balanced parties that might be possible. It simply is not a good choice in large scale fights. It is however, exceptionally strong at small scale which attracts players who tend to be less interested in supporting others. Go back and read your previous comments, those are taking things personally. I don't care what thieves and commanders are doing, but you keep doubling down on ridiculous claims. > @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > nah, thief command just isn't a good idea. the tag classes are nearly only pretty bulky things, for a reason. > > i also never seen that seriously. some clown tags, may have been thieves, but that way u can also tag up on a core ranger... Of course it's not a good idea, but sometimes a blob aren't being super serious and still clean up. People in game don't take things half as serious as people in this forum who will flat out lie because they're butt hurt about a class instead of a skill or mechanic.

> @"GreenZap.1352" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"GreenZap.1352" said: > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > Again, SA can energize a life leech build and can handle crowds. You can take CS and the usual Trick or SA-CS-DA and keep up the Vulnerability with Cloak and Dagger, Sundering Shade, and Even the Odds to hit up a boss while leeching adds around them. You can stagger that with slow Dancing Dagger kiting to Torment their movement while they funnel into a cone shape to mow down. > > > > > > Damage is still so low though... > > > > How would you know if the damage is too low if you haven't even taken a build out yet? You can do what you want, can't do much for you if you're not even going to ask questions beyond, how make sword good. > > Ok, if you want to I'd love if you could post a GW2skill build page so I can take a look at what big damage you are referring to. > I've had an idea of using Deadeye with S/D and see if it works better just haven't unlocked Deadeye fully on this character yet. > > Problem with Torment is that we are playing a Power build which means we don't have increased condi damage and mobs doesn't really move around that much which makes Torment less effective than using it on other players. It's not "big damage", I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything, I'm just saying S/D works fine if you want the mechanics of sword main hand. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaxAwiVlNw4YgsN2JOsLbrTA-zVRYBhmDUM6Om+OjulphrsE5BIgfbvmJcGB-w **Trick-DA-CS** http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaxAwiRlNw4YgsN2JW2WnvKA-zVZYBhmDcICGxojY67Q6TI0tKNcJlIPAB8b71MhzIA-w **DE-Trick-CS** Those are roughly the two versions of the build I use everywhere except I think I messed with my stat thresholds on health and precision the other day but gw2efficiency won't take an API for me right now to check. The Torment just compounds your damage a little visually so they tense up a bit but Dancing Dagger bounce is nice with multiple targets. In open world crowds you could take Be Quick or be Dead if you're trying to do something with DE instead of M7 since you'll Mark stuff a lot and that quickness makes sword auto look and feel less sluggish compared to other weapon autos. I like Premeditation usually but I wanted more precision the other day. I saw a thief on another server a couple of days ago with Swindlers Equilibrium and Mercy but I don't want to have to mess with my stats that much right now to work in Acro. Sometimes I'll take **SA** so I can leech off of blinds during waves if there's a boss with adds or something because I'll likely not be able to duck out and reset but it also cleans up pretty fast.