kash.9213

> @"Shroud.2307" said: > > @"Jilora.9524" said: > > That is you getting punished for engaging 1 v 3 then 1 v 5 and any class w/o stealth doesn't have that huge bailout. So they add this easy avoidable mechanic to hinder you or you would die get caught even less. You basically are complaining your kill death ratio drops from 50-1 to 40-1 and you have to be aware of your surroundings for an npc that might turn a 1 v 3 fight disregarding the fact that you fight all day 1 v 3 and get kills and run off all day and we can't do anything but waste our time and that's cool but dying once in a while to you isn't. > > Omg, kitten _thank you._ I been saying this, lmao. > > I do agree with people that Watch Tower could use a rework, and I understand how it can be unenjoyable for a Thief to have to play around it... But having a basic sense of awareness is all you need to avoid it. You know, what everyone else needs to have if they don't want to get +1'd at a bad time. Most thieves would likely agree with how you put it but not everyone playing a thief at the moment is all that into being their best thief self and are usually the same kind of people who ask for help in thief forum with their build or issue (which is great) or complain in WvW forum. What people can't agree with is all of the exaggeration or flat out lying or packing a bunch of other unrelated issues into it. When I see a bunch of posts saying "delete thief" and "thieves get unlimited everything all of the time", it sucks to then see a nonsensical change to a skill like Infiltrators Arrow when there were more precise changes that could have been made that didn't effect non problematic builds.

> @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > You'd have to fix Daredevil and Core also though. Poor Deadeye needs their icon changed so they don't look soo scary. > > They cant fix stealth due how netcode works arround it, while doing psome gameplay with friends on same lan(as in we were watching each other screens) we notice that when the thief was revealed or unstealthed, it would keep stealthed on mine for a few seconds more (theres a delay in the stealth info from the atacker and whoi has to render the atacker out of stealth) and thus giving the impression of low reaveal uptime, with more stealthy perma builds was actually a pain to duel. > The more laggy the server/ map is the worse the effect is, in blobs blasting stealth and push over and over is painfull cause game becomes a mess of daamage first than evertything can happens and enemy will continue stealthed hitting the enemy for the next 2-3sec w/o reveal. > > Anet wont fix that cause if they touch the netcode they m8 break the game. > > Maybe one way to kinda reduce the "perma stealth visual effect" would be remove stealth blasts to something else, and remove stealth from scrappers. :) > Get mesmers or thiefs if u want stealth :P > > Note: this would kinda balance out the meta classes have the all that is needed wich is 3-4 classes for the gamemode, and would make other classes being used as well,. At the risk of making things more convoluted they could try to give stealth a proximity filter where once you're within a radius for like 4 seconds of an enemy you gain Revealed buff for like 4 seconds that you can make use of and get increasingly revealed visually and can be targeted. Continuing to stealth for Stealth Attack in that radius could still keep you partially visible and you would have to get out of that radius again to go full stealth visually. What I meant to the OP though is that All of the thief spec options will likely be the same problem for OP.

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"Cynz.9437" said: > > > I do not have high hopes for next xpac but one can dream. Can we please get support spec (bard!!??) for thief? I think it would make interaction between thief players and rest of the community more healthy. > > > Pve: we would have alternative to straight dps, BT and kick from raid/fractal group. > > > WvW: spot in zergs -> less roamers -> less hate generated by getting killed by some sneaky one hit kamikaze. > > > PvP: hey, we can teamfight, thief is not mandatory as decapper!? > > > > > > Don't get me wrong, i love thief, i love assassin like classes, always did and i am sure i am not the only one but it is also a fact that GW2 community hates assassins, with passion. We need alternatives outside of "rerolling". Mesmers got it, why not us? > > > > Sounds good but it would have to perform well in it's role to be enough of a draw. A bard could be fun, they could call it the Hype Bandit or something and the skills could be dance moves and the e-spec utilities could be jam out emotes that buff allies. > > Knowing our luck, it'll end up being a mime instead. If I can sustain a group miming the Robot dance I'd consider it. .

> @"GenerationX.9178" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"GenerationX.9178" said: > > > I think thief should be deleted from the game. Most thieves spam dodge, stealth or port all day long not to mention most skills are instant. > > > > That's reasonable, delete a class and playstyle a lot of other players enjoy cuz u dont......gw2 player mentality right here folks, no wonder it's dead:) prob a good thing it is really. > > I mianed thief d/d thief for long time. only reason was to counter play all other thieves because no other class could keep up with the speed,dodge and spam of the class. There are very few good thieves. tell you what tell me how you counter an instant cast, unblockable f1 on thief? or how do you dodge 3 shadow shots a thief spams on you? OHH wait you play thief so you can because you can spam dodges and instant ports ! In all of that fantasy fight of yours, you didn't once mention what you would do. They hit you with 3 shadow shots and you do nothing back? Other classes can "spam dodges" just as much as thieves and be just as out of dodges, daredevil gets an extra dodge, because it's an elite spec feature. Other classes have ports....what are you on about? That unblockable swipe was chopped down to 600 range. You didn't counter play other thieves by the way, or you'd still be playing your thief if you ever did.

> @"Veprovina.4876" said: > If Mesmers did that, it would be fixed (read: destroyed), a long time ago, along with a ton of unnecessary nerfs not even related to the problem. :tongue: > Anet loves Thieves, they'll never get nerfed. Just deal with it and use the skills available to you to reveal them. Like the mount one for exaple. See my post above. Thieves literally just got a nerf, you can read the thread. If Anet deleted thief class there would still be posts here claiming someone hacked and got their thief back in the game and got away from someone with a reset.

> @"Mikhael.2391" said: > > @"purple.6194" said: > > fix perm stealth keep hiding and porting. > > I know wvw is dead, the siege side of things is dead, roaming is dead, support is dead, hackers don't get banned, get it all out of the way not here to dispute any of it. > > The mount sniff bell, to *indicate* a stealth enemy may be in the area, is not the counterplay to a perm stealth deadeye. Nor is the static paint trap that can be removed instantly > > It isn't, there are so many things wrong with stealth in gw2 but lets just go one step at a time. > > Since I spotted some changes recently that resemble someone blowing the dust off the wvw shelf Here I am > > Unfortunately anet is gong to ignore you because its fine for them as it is. If they thought it was fine they wouldn't keep nerfing stuff.

> @"Cynz.9437" said: > I do not have high hopes for next xpac but one can dream. Can we please get support spec (bard!!??) for thief? I think it would make interaction between thief players and rest of the community more healthy. > Pve: we would have alternative to straight dps, BT and kick from raid/fractal group. > WvW: spot in zergs -> less roamers -> less hate generated by getting killed by some sneaky one hit kamikaze. > PvP: hey, we can teamfight, thief is not mandatory as decapper!? > > Don't get me wrong, i love thief, i love assassin like classes, always did and i am sure i am not the only one but it is also a fact that GW2 community hates assassins, with passion. We need alternatives outside of "rerolling". Mesmers got it, why not us? Sounds good but it would have to perform well in it's role to be enough of a draw. A bard could be fun, they could call it the Hype Bandit or something and the skills could be dance moves and the e-spec utilities could be jam out emotes that buff allies.

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Cynz.9437" said: > > > @"Jilora.9524" said: > > > > @"Cynz.9437" said: > > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said: > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > @"Cynz.9437" said: > > > > > > > > @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > > > > > > > > > >This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOL > > > > > > > > There is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) and half of them are total garbage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games. > > > > > > > > > > > > This 100%^ > > > > > > I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol. > > > > > > > > > > You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general. > > > > > > > > Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo). > > > > I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here. > > > > > > Again my same argument with cad it is just sentrys and the rare watchtower. It's so you thieves can't run rampant thru the entire map. You know if nothing like this there would be even more thieves hiding right in spots to jump players out of stealth right next to towers or hiding behind the arch in the camp south of bay or right before smc on enemy side for any single heading that way because there would be nothing at all to prevent it and yeah no one wants to run core necro just in case a thief shows up. There are not plenty of ways. It's not an error. It's wvw that you play as pvp 1 v 1. You thieves play it wrong not most of the players but **anet doesn't give you a choice really** > > > > Well at least you realize it. Once again, i also stay by my point that **community is also to blame**. As long as thief has no spot in zerg they will 1v1 in wvw. > > There is no spot in the Zerg because of the design of the class. They don’t do anything well in group support or area damage that another class doesn’t clearly outshine them. > > That’s not a *community* problem. > > It’s because of the design. > Thief is fine in zergs with just a few trait choices really but wont get a seat on the squad bus unless a tag sees them hustling and needs bodies to build up hype. Regardless how many times you save their core utility or how many times you're clutch at the end of they day they still see you as the same thing as that thief that got away from them a few times. I don't care and support groups and squads anyway but a lot of thieves keep hearing to change their class for another (tag needs some reason they got wiped again) then they'll just go do something where the crying is only on the other side. The community is to blame for a few things, like what kind of thief they keep facing that they make threads about.

> @"Junkpile.7439" said: > At least i can see reve or holosmith longer than 0,3 sec Adding to my earlier post, have camera pan speed set to max or near max and always look around while still and moving. you'll probably catch the stealth wisps on the ground and can guess their direction and orientation going into stleath.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > Defensive : > Rune of Durability (affordable, from HoT/skirmish vendors) > > Offensive : > Generally good : Rune of Might, **Rune of Fireworks, Rune of the Pack.** > > Anti Power : Rune of Scrapper > Anti Condi : Rune of Hoelbrak (affordable) > > > Other stuff can be used based on yur build. > > I used those runes for awhile but I really like Rune of Surging right now, especially with absorption and draining sigils. I'm not a Warrior but they've been clutch a few times and are nice alone or timed with a group play in general.

You'd have to fix Daredevil and Core also though. Poor Deadeye needs their icon changed so they don't look soo scary.

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said: > > @"Caedmon.6798" said: > > Well,some people know how to counter and others,just never learn. But hey lets keep on complaining though ! Im sure it will make you feel better giving yourself this feeling of "Class is broken" instead of, "Im gonna improve myself and learn how to shut them down". Whatever works. > I think that you are thinking about this in too small terms. > > While there may be alot of people who get killed by a certain class once or twice and then log in here to complain, that is far from everyone and the very topic of this thread should give you at least some indication of what the discussion actually is about. > > There may be some Thieves now who have issues with the "marked" mechanics and there are some Thieves now who make threads asking for pure support builds and classes to get looked at. > > However, the Thief is the only reason that "marked" exists to begin with and it is more or less the only reason that players on other classes that used to run solo now engage much less in that, use pocket-healers and limit themselves more to 3's, 5's and 10's at the "smaller" scales. This goes for players of all experience levels and preferences at smaller scale so it isn't just a pub-stomping issue (and pub-stomping issues alone has made Anet jump out of their seats in the past - the old Holorifle build for example likely got swatted only because it excelled at pub-stomping as it had little to no representation elsewhere). > > It was not an overbearing amount of Mesmers that caused any of these things. It was the Thief. It also means that **if you want those things to change** you would also need to give the Thief a proper, honest look. No one else is just going to roll over and die because the current state has made alot of less experienced players move onto Thief and they like to feel gratified. > > People on these forums have given thief a proper, honest look, DeceiverX and saerini alone probably could have published a book or two by now on it. Devs rarely agree and basically just run with whatever WvW and PvP forum hot take they've seen a few times and somehow, the thief class gets more aggravating for other players as time goes by.

> @"Glass Hand.7306" said: > Mag is going to miss NSPPPT, and NSPPT is going to miss Mag. > > I'm going to miss running around with Mag people even if our border rarely had waypoints to use.

-Stealth isn't a defense and not every build has extra evades and mobility is totally fair for thief health pool and lack of passive and reactive mitigation or defense but even that isn't prevalent on every build. -Making things cost more Initiative is the opposite of what the devs should do and I would feel bad for suggesting a change like that to another players class. -Either for mobility or for the blind or for the climbing, I rarely have a target selected. -thieves already think hard about engaging, that's most of the problem other players have with thieves.

> @"appelflap.8310" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"appelflap.8310" said: > > > So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past. > > > > It's one use, then waiting for initiative, then using it a second time. Your pool is 15, so you need to wait a second for the initiative and then you can cast it a second time. You might also use a combo with IA + SA/Signet but that might not be 100% reliable. > > > > You misunderstand with the idea that this is an 8 second cool down. That is a shared resource pool with all other weapon skills. So when you reduce that pool by 8 points you can more accurately say you add a cooldown equal to every skills individual point value equal to or below its point value. Of course, that's an oversimplification too because initiative is not a traditional cooldown. > > > > But, let's get into the weeds as it were. A player has 15 initiative traited. Every time you use a skill you should think about this calculation: > > > > (15 - Initiative Currently Expended + Available Raw Initiative) - Cost of Weapon Skill > > > > If the above number is negative you need to wait for initiative. This means, effectively, your weapon skill is on cooldown. Now, because all your skills have different costs some skills will be on cooldown, while others won't. The disadvantage is that, while you can use other less optimal weapon skills, using those skills will serve to increase the cooldown of more optimal skills also. > > > > The larger the "Cost of Weapon Skill" is the more likely you will be to find subsequent uses of higher cost skills locked out. Thief doesn't have cool downs so much as thief sometimes has cool downs when initiative is lower than skills require. > > > > So when you add 2 initiative to a 6 point skill it isn't the same as adding 2 to a 4 point skill. That's because the higher the cost the greater chance of it locking out a greater number of skills. Not all use cases involve full initiative with lots of available initiative regeneration. If you have 10 initiative and use an 8 initiative skill you are now limited to a 2 initiative skill (meaning practically all skills are on cooldown). > > > > Which brings me to the "Effective Universal Cooldown" balancing test. That is: > > > > (Cost of Desired Skill - (Available Initiative + Initiative Boosts) < or > (Opportunity Cost of Waiting) > > > > In plain language, the time to regenerate initiative to use the skill that is optimal for the situation NOW is weighed against the choice between waiting and spending initiative on another skill. However, that choice is difficult because it means the skill you can't cast NOW also won't be available for both the original time period AND the time period of whatever substitute skill. So the choice is really the question of "how badly do I need to use this skill in the immediate future?" > > > > The more you need to use a skill (which for a teleport may be critical because you need to decap or +1 ASAP) the more you effectively can't use other skills because you can't afford to cut into your pool. So "wait for initiative" unlike waiting for cool downs on other professions means auto attacking while you wait. > > > > Which is all to say that you can't speak of this as an 8 second cool down unless you ignore the unique initiative system on a fundamental level. > > My point still is that IA was overperforming and the nerf on it was deserved. Thieves can still stealth on the fly(to disengage, engage or regen initiave safely), they still have the best mobility, they still have the most evades of any class so yeah they shouldn't spam IA 3 times in 4 secs like before patch traveling 2700 range without any utilities, only weapon. After the patch thieves still have sb and shadowstep to travel around the map, the only difference now is that you have to use utilities too like other classes instead of weapon only to travel that fast and that's how it should be. As long as people can't understand how broken this was, they will never be satisfied when something gets nerfed. You're balancing based on maybe one build in one mode doing one task. They could have reduced the range on IA and maybe even on Dash. We would still be able to climb some terrain but have Initiative for making use of IAs blind or other skills and our reset potential would be regulated a bit. It's a poorly thought change that disregards other builds and still leaves those problems in place, only now people are increasingly more encouraged to not use and combine skills, which seems counterintuitive for GW2 combat.

> @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > > > So, just now, rifle thief inside our T3 SM. 5 ppl chasing him around in between guards, no way to lock him, yet he still can one shot me from stealth and then keep runing :D totaly legit bro. > > > > It is legit. They made a good build and played alert, you didn't bother with your build so you had nothing to lock them down with. You also got one shot by rifle somehow in your own t3 sm which tells us what kind of build your running around with and somehow you don't have any shame about that. > > there is no point arguing with you, if you see permastealth rifle build as OK, then go on -_- > What does a rifle have to do with long stealth duration? You don't even need SA really to stagger stealth around the map. You might need SA once you're spotted before you get pulled and nuked, unless the group are a bunch of glass players who can't slot any control or know how to pivot and cleave and get one shot by a rifle under structure buffs and likely bloodlust. Do something with your Health or Toughness at least.

> @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > So, just now, rifle thief inside our T3 SM. 5 ppl chasing him around in between guards, no way to lock him, yet he still can one shot me from stealth and then keep runing :D totaly legit bro. It is legit. They made a good build and played alert, you didn't bother with your build so you had nothing to lock them down with. You also got one shot by rifle somehow in your own t3 sm which tells us what kind of build your running around with and somehow you don't have any shame about that.

> @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > @"SuchosCZ.2167" said: > > > > > > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > > > > > > >This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game. > > > > > > > > > > Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOL > > > > > There is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) and half of them are total garbage > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth and group stealth can only be used outa combat but are perma, except group stealth lol but imagine thief in gw2 stealthing a whole zerg for 10 secs on a 5 min cd lol. Vanish is ur in combat stealth which is also perma if u dont take dots and is unusable if u currently have dots so u have to cleanse first and hope u can clear em all. Rogue has a teleport to target and can be have 2 charges if ur sub, most bind kick to it to interrupt immediately after tele lol. I will say damage should definitely reveal stealth'd target's in gw2. > > > > > > The point is, that stealth for thief in GW2 should be enough deffence. No reason, to make it most evasive and most mobile class as well. > > > > > > > But there is, u literally described what makes a rogue a rogue lol add in high burst hit and run and that is a rogue like archetype. > > So, thief should have highest burst dmg, highest mobility, highest evasion and stealth.All that + medium armor. Oh ok then. Cool "archetype" If I'm not playing Daredevil I have the same evasion as you but I probably don't have higher burst damage as you. Mobility has cost and thief has been getting slowly priced out of Initiative use over time. You're just parroting dumb stuff other people screech about in this forum.

> @"Bzz.1904" said: > The problem is not stealth or dodge or teleport, the problem is do it all at same time with very little investment, and that comparation with lifeforce is just laughble, but tbf marked debuff should counter only stealth and not mark everyone, or myb fix the real problem that is perma stealth and remove this lazy sheet "solution". It's not very little investment, it's what they packed their build for and good timing and pacing doesn't equal happening at the same time. Thief keeps getting priced out by Initiative and people still making outaded years old arguments that were hardly factual in the first place.

> @"Nugget.7203" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > The caps kind of hurt but I agree, it's a needless change. They could have even reduced the range on it some, or just left it alone and tuned something else. I used Death's Retreat for map travel mostly, Inf Strike was great for covering people with the blind and just being there for your team. As neglected as Shadow Savior was, it's pretty much dead now since Inf Strike with the blind was about the only reason to take that trait. Change the skill or put something else there, but they need to leave Initiative alone or hire devs who don't patch based on forum complaints who ignore traits and everything else. > > > > Everyone claims thieves have endless everything while at the same time claim they don't provide anything for the team except to decap in spvp so this change makes sense with these devs and this forum. > > Too many thieves flexing their incinerators and shadowstepping everywhere, jumping and running while attempting to hit you. pretty sure their escape route of using shortbow skill 5 spam will make them think twice, good on anet dealing with them! > All of these posts complaining about thieves are about thieves running away. We need to nerf the builds that are making a class that everyone claims has endless everything run away.

The caps kind of hurt but I agree, it's a needless change. They could have even reduced the range on it some, or just left it alone and tuned something else. I used Death's Retreat for map travel mostly, Inf Strike was great for covering people with the blind and just being there for your team. As neglected as Shadow Savior was, it's pretty much dead now since Inf Strike with the blind was about the only reason to take that trait. Change the skill or put something else there, but they need to leave Initiative alone or hire devs who don't patch based on forum complaints who ignore traits and everything else. Everyone claims thieves have endless everything while at the same time claim they don't provide anything for the team except to decap in spvp so this change makes sense with these devs and this forum.

> @"alchemyst.2165" said: > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > Sb is a very expensive weapon but still 1 of the best utility weapon out there. > > Shortbow is not a utility weapon. Create a CS, Tr, X marauder thief and look at the shortbow damage numbers! You will be surprised. > > > > > Yeah, 'cept now when the guy other guy blinks after you (assuming they have a port / blink), you're dead 9 out of 10 times. No initiative left. > > You are using shortbow wrong. Your deception skills fulfill the purpose you are looking for. > > > > When I read such comments I think this nerf is a good opportunity for some thieves to start to learn their class and stop relying on absurd mobility to gain unlimited disengages. > > Yeah god forbid a thief rely on their class survival mechanic to survive right > > Don't get me wrong I've used plenty of builds without a shortbow and they can still perform, but this change basically forces thief to be in-combat most of the time which we don't really have the tools for in a lot of cases. Although I am excited to see what new builds come of this change, I don't think it was necessary. It's also one of the few support skills that are reliable. That blind wasn't much but I probably used it for that and to get on top of my people more than anything else. It's a good thing Shadow Savior wasn't being used by anyone anyway or someone might have noticed the only reason to take that trait just got gutted. What does that guy mean using shortbow wrong, is there some right way we're supposed to use it? I probably build more to stay in large fights than most thieves and guess what happens when I stop relying on mobility? Exploded. If a thief is kind of useless I can see people not bothering with them and they think they can tank something but get some focus and watch them stumble for shortbow 5.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Zacchary.6183" said: > > *(Unhindered Combatant Dashes, Speed Runes and Channeled Vigors past you)* > > Nothing personal, kid. > > Vault + Dash too. > Staff will replace SB as mobility tool. > > Sucks to no longer be able to consistently port up cliffs, but good luck catching a Staff DD running away. Death's Retreat is my favorite mobility skill. I can scale most path available cliffs and ledges but it can also clear a lot of walls and larger objects. Plus, if you're as comfortable with it as with Withdraw then you can land it pretty instinctively wherever you want or oriented however you want around someone.

> @"lare.5129" said: > just now I understand why it nerfed! EoD will give some more more mobile biuld .. so to make some diference we have some nerf for old setup. I want to laugh but then I look over at Acrobatics.

> @"omgdracula.6345" said: > So like most of you I was shocked to see IA nerfed after all these years for really no reason. Especially with 0 compensation in the way of damage increases, or defensive capabilities. The other issue is now that Trickery is absolutely needed as a trait line. It also offers a lot of initiative regen. Most of which have been nerfed. Examples. > > Kleptomaniac nerfed in 2013 from 3 to 2 > Quick Pockets nerfed in 2019 3 to 2 > > You guys can't just keep upping initiative costs on skills without adjusting how initiative is regenerated or giving thieves more initiative baseline. What did IA do that was so OP? It sure was not the blind, because no thief used it anywhere near enemies where the blind would make sense. > > Maybe swap the blind for swiftness? Make it worth the 8 initiative. **Seeing as IA is used outside combat lead attacks does not even benefit from the initiative use. ** > > I wish I had some good suggestions, but having no explanation to really answer why you guys did this has me at a loss. > > I can see this being annoying in WvW but it is just a teleport lol. > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Is it possible to get some explanation on why IA was nerfed? > It really feels like the dev who made this change just read the WvW forum and didn't even look at any traits or anything else. Inf Arrow was also one of the only reasons to even look at Shadow Savior which wasn't good but wasn't terrible coupled with the blind. I could even take some kind of reduced range instead, maybe/probably not, but I don't want to see any more creative synergy get wrecked.