Is heart of thorns meant to feel this hard as a new player?

[Comus.7365]

i think most people being smug about playing through it don't consider that a fresh player doing it now will be in a mix of blue,green,yellow and most likely a rabid or two piece of gear. they don't have access to best in slot exotics nor ascended gear. so yeah for the rest of us it might be a breeze but certainly not them.

 

also they're unlocking their first elite spec.

[Bassdeff.1895]

Yes HoT had a steep l;earning curve which requires you to unlearn all the bad habits you picked up playing the core game. It's one of the reason why players are so polarized about HoT. You either love it or you hate it. You can;t just play any old build and mash buttons, you need a good build and you need to play smart.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Comus.7365" said:

> i think most people being smug about playing through it don't consider that a fresh player doing it now will be in a mix of blue,green,yellow and most likely a rabid or two piece of gear. they don't have access to best in slot exotics nor ascended gear. so yeah for the rest of us it might be a breeze but certainly not them.

>

> also they're unlocking their first elite spec.

 

If a 'fresh player' played through the personal story then they ought to have access to exotics. And, we were all unlocking our first elite spec when HoT released.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Bassdeff.1895" said:

> You can;t just play any old build and mash buttons

Unless you play necromancer.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > If I don't play through a Living World Episode and the next one releases, there's nothing telling me to go back and do the one I missed, there's no reason.... the new hotness is in my face and says "Play ME".

> Which in and of itself is a problem caused by the reward structure, let's say one LW episode introduces a map with a meta that rewards you with a cosmetic infusion you really want to have. Now you have 2 options to actually get the thing:

>

> option A:

>

> You farm the content in question and hope that you "win the lottery" and acquire the item by doing the meta.

>

> or option B:

>

> You farm whatever has the best time to gold ratio and just buy the thing from the TP.

>

>

> ^ This is why it's generally so easy to ignore most of the content. It also hurts the longevity of the content in question and this problem is also unique to OW. If you want a Raid related Infusion you can just do the raid and get lucky or work your way towards it by collecting the related currency. Meanwhile players can farm OW metas like AB for almost half a decade without even seeing a single drop while also swimming in useless map currencies which could have been used to solve the issue.

If this model harmed the longevity of the content no one would do Chak Gerent any more.

[Tails.9372]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> If this model harmed the longevity of the content no one would do Chak Gerent any more.

Wrong, HoT metas are getting saved by the fact that they're a major part in gen 2 legendary weapon / raid armor creation. Take those away and its good night for them except the AB one. If it's "a challenge" what people were after then the Chak Gerent wouldn't even be the thing to go for, there are more difficult metas which of course are all dead right now.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Skiravor.1257" said:

> Honestly, i hear this alot from new players before they quit.

>

> Does not matter, the veterans want it more difficult, they are not interested in new players or growing the game.

>

> Its why this game does not have numbers like other mmos. Anet is stuck and they do not know how to grow their ip beyond a low pop niche game.

>

> It is fun once geared up with all the mounts though lol

 

Ofc its the expac from 5 years ago, the game feeling like it was in maintenance mode for the last 3 years and the layoffs

while other mmos kept getting exoansions and big updates deff didnt have anything to do with it.

 

Lol the mental gymnastic ppl aply to some stuff to justify their head cannon is smth else.

 

 

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Incantus.8549" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cuks.8241" said:

> > > > > > > Also polls on this forum always put Hot at the top of the favorite expansions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > i guess you werent there at launch. it made many people quit the ENTIRE GAME. and what kind of mmo FORCES you to revamp your character and playstyle?

> > > > > > if its in the game, it should be viable for everything.

> > > > >

> > > > > What the actual...?

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, if the game locks you into rigid templates like some MMOs do, then it makes sense for it to be viable. But with a free form system you have the opportunity to create a trash build. It's still technically viable, just trash tier.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > so, what would happen if they buffed it to be GOOD? think about it....scary stuff

> > > > it is only trash, because THEY WANT IT SO

> > >

> > > You're really not thinking this through.

> > >

> > > I am not saying that any particular trait line in GW2 is trash. Certainly, we can point to individual traits that are trash. But the whole idea of our trait system is to allow players to find synergy between traits to produce the outcomes they're looking for. What you call "forcing you to revamp your character and playstyle" is nothing more or less than that. That you produce a trash build does not mean that the system is trash.

> >

> > so, will you give me 100s of gold, so i can EXPERIMENT with builds and runes at max level?

>

> 100s of gold? How about you maybe learn the game, Metabattle, Snowcrow and the PvP lobby provides all the testing grounds a person need to get a feel for if a build would work or not. Traits and skills operate differently between PvE and PvP, yes, but that is where a build editor tool comes in, several are right on google. I have crafted several ascended sets, but not after extensive theorycrafting of my builds and testing in the PvP area. Sometimes if I was truly unsure I'd nab some exotic gear and take it for a spin, and a full set of exotic gear is not a hefty price tag at all.

>

> The true depth of this game lies in the builds that you can fiddle together, everyone has a different playstyle in games, even if we maybe dont know it, some builds will work perfectly for you and others just dont match you as a person and your playstyle, this game offers the freedom to find the right build for the player. The mediocrity comes from those who just copy paste others builds and expect to be as good as them.

 

yea, because numbers on a training dummy is the exact same thing as REAL combat. and those numbers wouldnt even be correct, without the proper runes.

freedom? nope, i had a functional build, but that isnt good enough anymore. that is the exact OPPOSITE of freedom

[thepenmonster.3621]

> @"Comus.7365" said:

> i think most people being smug about playing through it don't consider that a fresh player doing it now will be in a mix of blue,green,yellow and most likely a rabid or two piece of gear. they don't have access to best in slot exotics nor ascended gear. so yeah for the rest of us it might be a breeze but certainly not them.

 

There are a thousand ways to sneer, "git gud" as this thread has shown us

 

 

[battledrone.8315]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > where did i say that? i have always said, that this game has one of the best levelling experiences in the business

> > if they had made more of the same, then we wouldnt be in this mess.

> > this is why they couldnt beat wow: blizzard always made content for ALL player categories

> > back in the old days, at least

> > i was okay with paying a share for raids and pvp, as long as they made some content for me too

>

> Which they haven't gotten since the 3 maps of Orr. Which were the last leveling experiences in the game, it has been level 80 content for the next 8 years. So they haven't released content for you in 8 years yet you are still here. But the comment you failed to respond to still stand, you don't need gold to experiment with builds as swapping traits and skills doesn't require any kind of payment so your argument about gold is moot.

 

but the runes and sigils are NOT free, and without the right ones, the build is going to suck anyway.

i blew over 30 gold on my scrapper WITHOUT FINDING A FUNCTIONAL BUILD.

and i am not really "here" i am just lurking the forums now, last time i played was about an hours worth of icebrood saga

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > where did i say that? i have always said, that this game has one of the best levelling experiences in the business

> > > if they had made more of the same, then we wouldnt be in this mess.

> > > this is why they couldnt beat wow: blizzard always made content for ALL player categories

> > > back in the old days, at least

> > > i was okay with paying a share for raids and pvp, as long as they made some content for me too

> >

> > Which they haven't gotten since the 3 maps of Orr. Which were the last leveling experiences in the game, it has been level 80 content for the next 8 years. So they haven't released content for you in 8 years yet you are still here. But the comment you failed to respond to still stand, you don't need gold to experiment with builds as swapping traits and skills doesn't require any kind of payment so your argument about gold is moot.

>

> but the runes and sigils are NOT free, and without the right ones, the build is going to suck anyway.

> i blew over 30 gold on my scrapper WITHOUT FINDING A FUNCTIONAL BUILD.

> and i am not really "here" i am just lurking the forums now, last time i played was about an hours worth of icebrood saga

If you can still count the amount of gold you spent on finding a build, you havent really spent any sizable amount at all.

 

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > where did i say that? i have always said, that this game has one of the best levelling experiences in the business

> > > > if they had made more of the same, then we wouldnt be in this mess.

> > > > this is why they couldnt beat wow: blizzard always made content for ALL player categories

> > > > back in the old days, at least

> > > > i was okay with paying a share for raids and pvp, as long as they made some content for me too

> > >

> > > Which they haven't gotten since the 3 maps of Orr. Which were the last leveling experiences in the game, it has been level 80 content for the next 8 years. So they haven't released content for you in 8 years yet you are still here. But the comment you failed to respond to still stand, you don't need gold to experiment with builds as swapping traits and skills doesn't require any kind of payment so your argument about gold is moot.

> >

> > but the runes and sigils are NOT free, and without the right ones, the build is going to suck anyway.

> > i blew over 30 gold on my scrapper WITHOUT FINDING A FUNCTIONAL BUILD.

> > and i am not really "here" i am just lurking the forums now, last time i played was about an hours worth of icebrood saga

> If you can still count the amount of gold you spent on finding a build, you havent really spent any sizable amount at all.

>

 

thats too bad, caus i aint spending more. never had more than 50g anyway

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> thats too bad, caus i aint spending more. never had more than 50g anyway

 

That makes sense since you admitted you aren't playing the game anymore. It's hypocritical to call out how expensive it is to gear characters while you aren't even playing the game, if you did, then you wouldn't call that expensive. Everything is expensive if you don't earn anything, I'm surprised you can use waypoints.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Comus.7365" said:

> i think most people being smug about playing through it don't consider that a fresh player doing it now will be in a mix of blue,green,yellow and most likely a rabid or two piece of gear. they don't have access to best in slot exotics nor ascended gear. so yeah for the rest of us it might be a breeze but certainly not them.

>

> also they're unlocking their first elite spec.

 

We were also fresh players without ascended and without elite specs when we played Heart of Thorns. The big difference is we, and by we I mean players that followed the game for a long time, had access to 2 complete Seasons worth of content, that newer players do not have access to. Which is why I don't think anyone disagree with the OP about the difficulty bump in Heart of Thorns. Since Arenanet decided to monetize the game in this way, there isn't much we can do

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Bassdeff.1895" said:

> Yes HoT had a steep l;earning curve which requires you to unlearn all the bad habits you picked up playing the core game. It's one of the reason why players are so polarized about HoT. You either love it or you hate it. You can;t just play any old build and mash buttons, you need a good build and you need to play smart.

 

"good build": say good bye to ½ of the playerbase

"play smart" another 40 % or so wont qualify for that either

congratz, you just lost most of the customers. no wonder they were burning cash

[battledrone.8315]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > thats too bad, caus i aint spending more. never had more than 50g anyway

>

> That makes sense since you admitted you aren't playing the game anymore. It's hypocritical to call out how expensive it is to gear characters while you aren't even playing the game, if you did, then you wouldn't call that expensive. Everything is expensive if you don't earn anything, I'm surprised you can use waypoints.

 

i dont farm gold, so it was all that i HAD. any other mmo would had made the elite specs to full classes to avoid this exact situation.

it would had given us the opportunity to LEARN THE CLASS BEFORE END GAME

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > thats too bad, caus i aint spending more. never had more than 50g anyway

> >

> > That makes sense since you admitted you aren't playing the game anymore. It's hypocritical to call out how expensive it is to gear characters while you aren't even playing the game, if you did, then you wouldn't call that expensive. Everything is expensive if you don't earn anything, I'm surprised you can use waypoints.

>

> i dont farm gold, so it was all that i HAD. any other mmo would had made the elite specs to full classes to avoid this exact situation.

> it would had given us the opportunity to LEARN THE CLASS BEFORE END GAME

 

You don't need to farm gold, if you do you will be swimming in it. Just playing the game naturally is enough to get all the gold you need for your builds. In any other mmo you'd have to gear a new class, instead here you use your already existing gear in most cases. If elite specs were full classes then it would destroy variety and freedom of choice, plus would make Anet look money hungry for character slots. And finally there is absolutely nothing keeping you from going back to older content once you unlock an elite spec to learn the class, before going back to end-game.

[battledrone.8315]

evidently not, since i blew all my cash on ONE character, WITHOUT ANY PROGRESS

and if it was a new class, then i would have the ENTIRE GAME to gear up

i could beat the old content with my old build too, that doesnt help me in the new content at all

there is a reason why NO other mmos are doing it this way

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> evidently not, since i blew all my cash on ONE character, WITHOUT ANY PROGRESS

> and if it was a new class, then i would have the ENTIRE GAME to gear up

> i could beat the old content with my old build too, that doesnt help me in the new content at all

> there is a reason why NO other mmos are doing it this way

 

If you blew all your cash on one character then that's your own fault, you should've done some research before investing all your cash. Also you did have the entire game to gear up... just replay the old content on your elite spec, something most players already do. And my argument still stands, you could go back to re-play the game, most of it is in the open world and still available, to gear your characters, it's not like the personal story gives any good rewards. I'm confused why you want elite specs to be complete classes, there is no benefit to doing that, only drawbacks.

 

And the reason other mmos are not doing it this way is because they are exploitative money hungry developers.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Comus.7365" said:

> > i think most people being smug about playing through it don't consider that a fresh player doing it now will be in a mix of blue,green,yellow and most likely a rabid or two piece of gear. they don't have access to best in slot exotics nor ascended gear. so yeah for the rest of us it might be a breeze but certainly not them.

> >

> > also they're unlocking their first elite spec.

>

> We were also fresh players without ascended and without elite specs when we played Heart of Thorns. The big difference is we, and by we I mean players that followed the game for a long time, had access to 2 complete Seasons worth of content, that newer players do not have access to. Which is why I don't think anyone disagree with the OP about the difficulty bump in Heart of Thorns. Since Arenanet decided to monetize the game in this way, there isn't much we can do

 

True. Even players who love HoT acknowledge that the core game doesn't do a good job of preparing players for the Jungle. But I think if we're being honest here, LS2 probably wasn't going to help most of these players transition. Some of the same people complain about story content difficulty, too. What are the chances LS2 is the "Goldilocks" zone for them?

 

Having said that, I am fine with them making LS2 F2P so that players at least have a chance to try something a little more challenging than core open world before jumping into the jungle. Worst case scenario: It doesn't do what you hoped it would.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Comus.7365" said:

> i think most people being smug about playing through it don't consider that a fresh player doing it now will be in a mix of blue,green,yellow and most likely a rabid or two piece of gear. they don't have access to best in slot exotics nor ascended gear. so yeah for the rest of us it might be a breeze but certainly not them.

>

> also they're unlocking their first elite spec.

 

I have done experiments in the past like boosting a character with tomes and running through HoT and PoF, trying to see if I could solo enough Hero Point's to unlock the Elite specs with just the random ~level 40 blues, greens and yellows you get from the leveling up pop up and ended up surprised myself by how easy it still was.

Although tbf that happened to be on a Ranger, which while it wasn't a conscious decision since I simply needed to boost one at that time, it is due to the pet probably the easiest profession to do that with.

 

Still, the problem really isn't gear in GW2. While gear can make a sizeable difference when it comes to maximising performance of a well constructed build, or bringing it together in the first place, it's contribution pales in comparison to how much it matter's to understand the games mechanics, one's profession's mechanics as well as skillful play. Plus, out of all those things, gear is by far the easiest to just acquire ingame.

 

The problem GW2 has, and it's not entirely unique in this, is that it doesn't apply enough gradual (non frustrating) pressure on it's players over the entire leveling experience (the core story has been shown to be beatable by a Ranger pet with a ungeared player standing back, with no weapons, utilities or anything equipped and not contributing at all) and even beyond, to gradually nudge players into rethinking their builds, getting invested into the game mechanics, realising what's working and what's not and to slowly improve as players along with increasing content complexity.

 

Then suddenly there is decent and engaging content in which the game expects players to have learned all those things and it unfortunately, unless players went out of the game's way to learn everything themselves with largely out of game resources, it can feel like a frustrating wall instead, where nothing works anymore and everything has to be learned now.

 

But again, the problem has never been the difficulty of content like HoT, Fractals, or even Raids, since even they for the most part really aren't that difficult still, and nerfing or providing easy modes for any of that would just extend the issue rather than fix it.

It's the lack of facilitating natural player skill progression to get players there, or at least close enough where it doesn't feel like a frustrating giant leap anymore rather than a jump most people who want to can be confident to make.

That can imo only be smoothly achieved by providing a gradual increase in mechanical complexity (difficulty) in the early game, as well as **repeatedly** showcasing and requiring player participation in all the mechanics (such as dodging, CC/breakbars, requiring a certain reasonable minimum level of damage) to teach them.

 

Having a little dodge tutorial or encountering a Breakbar once, but then having players play hundreds of hours of content so easy where non of that matters until suddenly all of it does just doesn't work.

People need repetition and practice to improve.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> evidently not, since i blew all my cash on ONE character, WITHOUT ANY PROGRESS

> and if it was a new class, then i would have the ENTIRE GAME to gear up

> i could beat the old content with my old build too, that doesnt help me in the new content at all

> there is a reason why NO other mmos are doing it this way

 

Really? So, WoW doesn't release punishingly difficult open world zones in their expansions, which players mostly need to group up to achieve anything significant? Oh, yes they do! And how do you get around that? Well, in WoW they have a gear treadmill design, so you just play and earn better gear until you can overpower the enemies on the map. GW2 takes a different approach. Instead of outgearing the content passively via stats, you unlock new skills which help you handle the increased difficulty.

 

I don't know where you are getting this idea that other games you get to endgame and that's the end. You have reached maximum power and can defeat everything with ease! Congratulations! What other MMOs are you playing?

 

Edit: Oh, I did want to mention I had an idea in an unrelated thread regarding the design of elite specs vs. core specs. The long and short of it is that anything you add to core specs is also available to elite specs, but not the other way around. So, I thought, why not add new trait lines which are essentially elite specs (exclusive weapon unlock, utility skill set, and trait line) that are available to core builds only?

 

I mention this because it would address your complaint about having to unlock more powerful skills at endgame rather than learning your class earlier on.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Having said that, I am fine with them making LS2 F2P so that players at least have a chance to try something a little more challenging than core open world before jumping into the jungle. Worst case scenario: It doesn't do what you hoped it would.

 

Then we'd need to bring LS1 back, in order to bridge core with LS2. :dizzy:

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > Having said that, I am fine with them making LS2 F2P so that players at least have a chance to try something a little more challenging than core open world before jumping into the jungle. Worst case scenario: It doesn't do what you hoped it would.

>

> Then we'd need to bring LS1 back, in order to bridge core with LS2. :dizzy:

 

I thought that was already happening as part of this new strike mission hub and all that stuff they released recently? Or did I misunderstand where they were going with that?

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"DisabledVelociraptor.7865" said:

> The leap in difficulty from the personal story to heart of thorns is insane... forgive me for complaining here but this is kitten near unenjoyable.. I wish there was some kind of difficulty setting for instances because I just want to experience the story without feeling like i'm being completely crushed by everything

 

It was meant to give the player a sensory shock. When I first started playing in Verdant Brink years ago I had a headache for a couple of weeks because of it. You'll get used to the overload as your brain starts processing it more and you get used to the visual noise. Verdant Brink and Auric Basin are two of my favorite maps in the game because of the complex verticality.