Tapping Keep - What's reasonable to you guys?

[Baine.9650]

Recently, playing in the most hated WvW server in the game (Dragonbrand, thanks Karlkitorrik) I've come across several CREATIVE strategies to keep our tier 3 keep tapped. These include:

 

1) Throwing up siege up onto abandoned/hard to reach for players sections of the keep wall so NPCs will attack it and keep the keep tapped

2) Using a condi mesmer/condi necro build to teleport/invis up and down cliffs (LITERALLY TELEPORTING UP THE CLIFF, NOT SETTING A JUKE POINT THEN PORTING BACK. TELEPORTING STRAIGHT UP THE CLIFF WITH A SKILL). Eventually they'll kill a careless pug or 2 but the important part is that they are very hard to kill 1v1

3) Sitting behind a overpop zerg and using a single catapult to keep damaging keep while they take every other tower.

 

With the exception of 3, which is more of a server link issue, does 1 and 2 sound reasonable or should there be a change?

[Samug.6512]

IMO keeps should be contested only with siege damage being dealt to a gate or a wall, or if there's any enemy inside the objective, or with certain number of people in the close area etc...

Right now all you have to do is put NPCs in combat stance (not even in combat, just pull out their weapons), which is way too easy to do, but ANet can't be bothered.

[Threather.9354]

It is ok as it is. Lack of scouts/roamers (almost same thing, things they like overlap) is caused by other balance issues such as attacking upgraded stuff being being near impossible and that same stuff upgrading way too fast -> Much less attackers and enemy groups -> Scouting and refreshing siege feels like waste of time consdering you might only make a difference couple of times even if you play whole day. This causes the ones left having to run from one side of map to another checking contested objectives instead of communicating with others because there aren't enough likeminded people.

 

You should consider T3 waypoints being uncontested luxury on the map. Keeping them contested one of the few ways for single players to be useful left. At least 99% of it is done knowingly.

 

Do note that making attacking easier (closer to pre-HoT balance) isn't nerf to defending but rather buff to fun they can have in WvW (more action). It is really just current balance is catering players too much.

[Doug.4930]

Probably an unpopular opinion but I'm 100% fine with tapping the door disabling the waypoint. Given the speed, ease and automation of keeps getting to tier 3 these days I think waypoints are too much of a crutch. You've got speed kittens anyway.

 

If someone is bothered to camp a keep tapping the waypoint good luck to them. If a group is tapping the keep while you're in a zerg fight nearby then its a valid tactic. Whats so wrong with death being punishing. You don't need to get back into the fight 10 seconds after dying.

 

Maybe if waypoints were a tad rarer then maybe there could be reason to change the current system. But the top server having waypoints in all 3 keeps is bad enough.

 

Just walk back or don't die.

[Melian.5368]

I have an immortal shout spellbreaker just for keeping enemy keeps tagged. Even when detected I cannot be killed. I sustain, escape, come back and continue keeping it tagged. As long as I have participation from squad, I find great joy in doing this and literally laugh maniacally while doing so.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

With warclaw you don't need anything special to contest, they are immune to CC and don't have a combat speed, so just run by a structure aaaaand.....contested. It is stupid and people have talked about this back to core days, nothing has been done, keep in mind, back then WPs opened up for a short time after every contest event ended and new one started, upgrades cost supply, money, worker time and manual starting of the upgrade. Ideas back then were siege dmg, or 5+ people killing guards etc. This was also when guard stacks existed and people were ALWAYS contesting structures, not just WPs.

 

If you don't like warclaw speed and WPs, be more active in getting warclaw removed/nerfed, but the fact it exists does not mean you should blame WPs or support a toxic trolling tactic.

 

You can build siege in areas that NPCs cant get to, but an archer will try and hit, but can't, it will keep trying over and over, all you have to do is go back once an hour to refresh, the reward for effort is FAR to high. Add this in with warclaw, escape thief builds etc and it's non-stopped trolling. I have zero faith this will change.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> IMO keeps should be contested only with siege damage being dealt to a gate or a wall, or if there's any enemy inside the objective, or with certain number of people in the close area etc...

> Right now all you have to do is put NPCs in combat stance (not even in combat, just pull out their weapons), which is way too easy to do, but ANet can't be bothered.

 

Yep. Good example of how broken it is, let's say red owns SMC and takes RQ, when the yak walks to the castle from RQ it will contest Lowlands Keep, without even aggroing the guards. It should take siege damage to contest structures.

[Dawdler.8521]

The problem here is that the game have never separated two different types of attacks - just harassing guards and actually sieging the keep.

 

The simplest way would be to make contest happen on door, wall or lord damage (need lord or contest could expire while fighting haha). It wouldnt stop taps, but it would require more work (and some 40 supps). Guards are... acceptable losses.

 

The doors create a slight technical problem though as players can damage them... and the warclaw pull now exist. I would say doors should have a "immune to player damage at 100%" state, and the warclaw pull counts as player damage not siege. That way you have to at least initiate with siege. This still allows players to finish off lower hp doors if siege is destroyed and puts responsibility on defenders to repair if they dont want to risk easy contests.

 

We have suggested this before, its unlikely Anet will change anything.

[moutzaheadin.4029]

What makes you think dragonbrand is the most hated server ?

 

I don't think that's true at all.

 

[Excursion.9752]

> @"Melian.5368" said:

> I have an immortal shout spellbreaker just for keeping enemy keeps tagged. I find great joy in doing this and literally l**augh maniacally** while doing so.

I hate this as much as I love this! So much win haha!

 

[Samug.6512]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"Samug.6512" said:

> > IMO keeps should be contested only with siege damage being dealt to a gate or a wall, or if there's any enemy inside the objective, or with certain number of people in the close area etc...

> > Right now all you have to do is put NPCs in combat stance (not even in combat, just pull out their weapons), which is way too easy to do, but ANet can't be bothered.

>

> Yep. Good example of how broken it is, let's say red owns SMC and takes RQ, when the yak walks to the castle from RQ it will contest Lowlands Keep, without even aggroing the guards. It should take siege damage to contest structures.

 

A ram built on a gate is enough to contest a keep for 15 minutes, coz guards will never take it out, until it disappears... This is an example of one of **many many** problems WvW has for a **looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo[...]ooooooooooooong** time but ANet decides to ignore.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > @"Samug.6512" said:

> > > IMO keeps should be contested only with siege damage being dealt to a gate or a wall, or if there's any enemy inside the objective, or with certain number of people in the close area etc...

> > > Right now all you have to do is put NPCs in combat stance (not even in combat, just pull out their weapons), which is way too easy to do, but ANet can't be bothered.

> >

> > Yep. Good example of how broken it is, let's say red owns SMC and takes RQ, when the yak walks to the castle from RQ it will contest Lowlands Keep, without even aggroing the guards. It should take siege damage to contest structures.

>

> A ram built on a gate is enough to contest a keep for 15 minutes, coz guards will never take it out, until it disappears... This is an example of one of **many many** problems WvW has for a **looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo[...]ooooooooooooong** time but ANet decides to ignore.

Well in fairness if no one comes to look at the keep and take out that ram in 15 minutes the keep deserves to be contested. That particular scenario is hardly the issue at hand. Unlike say perma-stealth thieves, the ram doesnt run away and come back on cd.

 

[Justine.6351]

If they made it siege damage only, people will just make stealthy siege pieces to contest it periodically and defenders will ALWAYS have to show up to defend. This might be ok for something small like a tower but imagine having to track down sneaky tap siege for one of the keeps. Mousing over all the walls and doors looking for that 1% damage will get tedious pretty fast and just pray they can't hit inners too.

[Samug.6512]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> If they made it siege damage only, people will just make stealthy siege pieces to contest it periodically and defenders will ALWAYS have to show up to defend. This might be ok for something small like a tower but imagine having to track down sneaky tap siege for one of the keeps. Mousing over all the walls and doors looking for that 1% damage will get tedious pretty fast and just pray they can't hit inners too.

 

Eh? So it's harder to spot a siege weapon hitting a wall and a damaged wall over a person who runs past a keep 2 minutes ago that aggroed a random gate guard and puts it for a second in combat?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> If they made it siege damage only, people will just make stealthy siege pieces to contest it periodically and defenders will ALWAYS have to show up to defend. This might be ok for something small like a tower but imagine having to track down sneaky tap siege for one of the keeps. Mousing over all the walls and doors looking for that 1% damage will get tedious pretty fast and just pray they can't hit inners too.

 

Or people would just use a Dune Roller to contest the keep for 15mins out of every 20.

[jul.7602]

Only contest if there exists a gate/wall below 95%, or if lord is in combat.

[Samug.6512]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > If they made it siege damage only, people will just make stealthy siege pieces to contest it periodically and defenders will ALWAYS have to show up to defend. This might be ok for something small like a tower but imagine having to track down sneaky tap siege for one of the keeps. Mousing over all the walls and doors looking for that 1% damage will get tedious pretty fast and just pray they can't hit inners too.

>

> Or people would just use a Dune Roller to contest the keep for 15mins out of every 20.

 

Ye well now you don't even need a dune roller for that...

[ArchonWing.9480]

They should just revert it to the old behavior of the wp being open when the contest event ends. Changing it was pointless so they could make us spend thousands of gold in tactivator upgrades. Well guess there was the point.

[Svarty.8019]

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> IMO keeps should be contested only with siege damage being dealt to a gate or a wall, or if there's any enemy inside the objective, or with certain number of people in the close area etc...

> Right now all you have to do is put NPCs in combat stance (not even in combat, just pull out their weapons), which is way too easy to do, but ANet can't be bothered.

 

I bet that's the work of 5 minutes, it's desired by EVERYBODY, and STILL it'll never get done.

 

#MaintenanceMode.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> If they made it siege damage only, people will just make stealthy siege pieces to contest it periodically and defenders will ALWAYS have to show up to defend. This might be ok for something small like a tower but imagine having to track down sneaky tap siege for one of the keeps. Mousing over all the walls and doors looking for that 1% damage will get tedious pretty fast and just pray they can't hit inners too.

Which would be... good? I'm not sure what the problem is here. There's already way too few people realizing that a single cata taking 30% of one T3 keep wall is 10% of the keeps supplies to repair... and then you do it over and over until it's drained and the real attack can begin. That's literally what a siege is. That's how a real contest is supposed to work.

 

So I'd rather see that maniacally laughing contesting spellbreaker instead sit on a catapult for a minute and maniacally laugh while actually being useful. That may eventually lead to action inside the keep. Unlike just poking it.

[aspirine.6852]

Contest only when there are at least 20 of your server in the area.

Players alone should not contest keeps, siege should but only after damaging. Not throwing a few blueprints, that is just lazy programming.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> Contest only when there are at least 20 of your server in the area.

> Players alone should not contest keeps, siege should but only after damaging. Not throwing a few blueprints, that is just lazy programming.

So anything below 20 players will never be able to take a waypointed keep, since enemies just need to spot them once and then can waypoint into it at will?

 

Hm.

 

Well I guess people do love their zergs.

[Melian.5368]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> So I'd rather see that maniacally laughing contesting spellbreaker instead sit on a catapult for a minute and maniacally laugh while actually being useful. That may eventually lead to action inside the keep. Unlike just poking it.

 

I do it to annoy the enemy and make them run a long way each time they die so that they will get annoyed and change maps or quit, allowing us to cap their stuff easier. Works like a charm.

[Justine.6351]

I don't think you guys are understanding my meaning,

 

Right now its a scenario of "hey guys its ok because I was fighting someone near guards".

With the siege damage only change it would be the scenario that whenever an objective gets swords it will be "get there now its being attacked!".

 

There will be people building sneaky ballistas just to pop off a shot on an obscure wall section and then going on their way to flip camps while people respond to the swords. Or as @"Turkeyspit.3965" mentioned, the guy in the duneroller tagging EVERYTHING for the next 15 minutes. This is not about someone trying to solo an objective, its about tagging stuff for the distraction/lols.

 

Then in this thread I saw someone say "95% or lower" which is even worse. Literally the walls will be down by the time the first people show up to defend, after seeing swords, if its like 4-5 superior catas or something.

[Samug.6512]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> I don't think you guys are understanding my meaning,

>

> Right now its a scenario of "hey guys its ok because I was fighting someone near guards".

> With the siege damage only change it would be the scenario that whenever an objective gets swords it will be "get there now its being attacked!".

>

> There will be people building sneaky ballistas just to pop off a shot on an obscure wall section and then going on their way to flip camps while people respond to the swords. Or as @"Turkeyspit.3965" mentioned, the guy in the duneroller tagging EVERYTHING for the next 15 minutes. This is not about someone trying to solo an objective, its about tagging stuff for the distraction/lols.

>

> Then in this thread I saw someone say "95% or lower" which is even worse. Literally the walls will be down by the time the first people show up to defend, after seeing swords, if its like 4-5 superior catas or something.

 

Can you guys explain to me how is this different from what we have now?

 

The point is, building a ballista, a catapult, even getting a dune roller, requires **effort**. Contesting keeps and objectives would require **effort**. Now it is **effortless**. You still can build a ballista to shoot a wall every 3 minutes, or a cata to damage a wall. I can do it right now to contest enemy t3 Bay. But I don't do it, because all I have to do is **get close to a gate on my mount, throw a lance and do a quick 180 before even getting hit**.