Should clones and phantasm be indestructible?

[Taril.8619]

> @"Allarius.5670" said:

> Nowhere else in the game do you see destructible AOE except in the case of Renegade. They appear to be designed on the edge of what is classified as persistent and one-off pulsing AOE.

 

It's worth noting that Scourge also utilizes an exception case with its Sand puddles. Since they're persistent but are non-destructible. Of course, their radius is so small that you need to take like 1 step and you're out of their effect, but they're still able to zone out that area for 20 seconds while the Necro can use them as a point of origin for their F skills.

 

> @"Allarius.5670" said:

> If clones are to be changed to be invulnerable, then their persistence needs to be removed. For example, only have them generate when a shatter is activated. Tack on being untargetable in this example and they operate only as a shatter delivery mechanism, but would also need a 0.5 sec shatter delay to allow counterplay at melee range (and possibly a damage tweak).

 

Yeah, invulnerable but non-persistent clones would need a pretty significant overhaul. Given that their persistence is integral to Condition builds due to their capability to apply fully damaging conditions (As opposed to power attacks where they do basically 0 damage), even more so for Mirage and Infinite Horizon shenanigans.

 

Not to mention, various skills and traits that work off of them; Illusionary Leap, Mirror Blade (Somewhat, if used at range it can bounce between your clone and the target), Desperate Decoy, Fencer's Finesse, Escape Artist and Self-Deception are all reliant on having Clones be persistent in order to have their full effect. Between clones having an effect while they're attacking, to being part of the "Bamboozle" effect of Mesmer to trick players into targeting clones.

[Allarius.5670]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Allarius.5670" said:

> > Nowhere else in the game do you see destructible AOE except in the case of Renegade. They appear to be designed on the edge of what is classified as persistent and one-off pulsing AOE.

>

> It's worth noting that Scourge also utilizes an exception case with its Sand puddles. Since they're persistent but are non-destructible. Of course, their radius is so small that you need to take like 1 step and you're out of their effect, but they're still able to zone out that area for 20 seconds while the Necro can use them as a point of origin for their F skills.

>

> > @"Allarius.5670" said:

> > If clones are to be changed to be invulnerable, then their persistence needs to be removed. For example, only have them generate when a shatter is activated. Tack on being untargetable in this example and they operate only as a shatter delivery mechanism, but would also need a 0.5 sec shatter delay to allow counterplay at melee range (and possibly a damage tweak).

>

> Yeah, invulnerable but non-persistent clones would need a pretty significant overhaul. Given that their persistence is integral to Condition builds due to their capability to apply fully damaging conditions (As opposed to power attacks where they do basically 0 damage), even more so for Mirage and Infinite Horizon shenanigans.

>

> Not to mention, various skills and traits that work off of them; Illusionary Leap, Mirror Blade (Somewhat, if used at range it can bounce between your clone and the target), Desperate Decoy, Fencer's Finesse, Escape Artist and Self-Deception are all reliant on having Clones be persistent in order to have their full effect. Between clones having an effect while they're attacking, to being part of the "Bamboozle" effect of Mesmer to trick players into targeting clones.

 

Absolutely, on all points. Good insight.

 

Scourge is definitely interesting mechanically. As you suggest, Shades are conceptually entity manifestations but mechanically just point of origin effects. They operate more as targeted AOE, but the targeting is temporally limited to select areas. I'd guess the zoning strength is largely a result of no travel time and minimal cast animations.

 

I think the bamboozle effect is largely the source of the issue. At all levels it can lead to frustrating UI clutter. As a defensive mechanic that is really kind of interesting and cool, and probably a reason why many of us think the profession is conceptually awesome, but I don't know of a way to make it feel "healthy" for the game or profession. Unfortunately it just seems to punish new players, and players that don't understand the counterplay, in a very disproportionate fashion, where at higher skill levels the AI is cleaved and their pathing manipulated so they become an unreliable resource.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Allarius.5670" said:

> I think the bamboozle effect is largely the source of the issue. At all levels it can lead to frustrating UI clutter. As a defensive mechanic that is really kind of interesting and cool, and probably a reason why many of us think the profession is conceptually awesome, but I don't know of a way to make it feel "healthy" for the game or profession. Unfortunately it just seems to punish new players, and players that don't understand the counterplay, in a very disproportionate fashion, where at higher skill levels the AI is cleaved and their pathing manipulated so they become an unreliable resource.

 

Most likely, yes.

 

Since Clones will be kept squishy, primarily to allow for newbies to be able to counterplay Mesmer clones hiding the true Mesmer (Even more so with Mirage which has Axes of Symmetry and Illusionary Ambush to emphasise this by teleporting the Mesmer and all their clones to random locations around their target. Even though I personally LOVE this mechanic purely because it allows one to retarget Clones after the initial target dies and thus keep them active)

 

Given that the counterplay to Shatter is... Dodge when the clones stop attacking and start running at you (Though, this has less leeway when using Sword or Axe clones that are often in melee range anyway)

 

Meanwhile, on a gameplay level, all it does is serve to punish new players whom can't tell the real Mesmer easily and then punish Mesmers when more experienced players can tell the real Mesmer easily (Or have enough AoE that it doesn't matter)

 

Even in PvE, mobs are largely immune to the bamboozle effect and are only really impacted by specific target breaking skills (Mirror Images, Axes of Symmetry and Illusionary Ambush) and occasionally their janky AI in OW that makes them target switch for no reason.

 

I suppose it could be worse for balance. It could be the freaking White Mantle Mesmers and their BS killing them only to have them poof into butterflies and then pop up as the real Mesmer at full health with the "Illusion" still having the same health and damage as a real enemy... Gosh now that would be super frustrating for everyone to play against...

[XenesisII.1540]

Clones and phantasmals have been a big source of complaints from non mesmer players since the beginning, not sure making them immune to damage would go over well, although players would certainly have to pay better attention and also use their "dodge(s)" more appropriately if that were ever changed.

 

I do think that phantasmals should probably be immune until they fire off their skill and then become a clone, their skills already have to deal with usual counters like regular skills cast by players, but also have the additional counter layer that they can be killed before doing anything.

 

I did like the concept idea one person came up with of instead of clones and phantasmals, getting phantasmal armor count instead.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/100500/hammer-mesmer-elite-spec-concept-the-occluder

This would get rid of clones and phantasmals in the playing field which has problems for both mesmers and their opponents, but keep the shatter mechanic in place for mesmers to use. Which you can play with in many ways, like to make up for the clones running to targets to hit instead have the shatter be 600/900/1200 range pbaoe, range and strength increased with armor count as usual. Defenses of course would have to be improved for a change like that.

 

But changing to armor would be a big overhaul of the class which they will not do when they just finished burying it, maybe as an elite spec... where they would probably spend 2 years killing it off too anyways. Kinda funny thinking of a similar situation where for years players including necros complained about being locked in the shroud mechanic, and then they finally separated it with scourge, but now most of them have run back to core and reaper.

Yeah ok /end rant

 

[dandamanno.4136]

> @"Allarius.5670" said:

 

> I think the bamboozle effect is largely the source of the issue. At all levels it can lead to frustrating UI clutter. As a defensive mechanic that is really kind of interesting and cool, and probably a reason why many of us think the profession is conceptually awesome, but I don't know of a way to make it feel "healthy" for the game or profession. Unfortunately it just seems to punish new players, and players that don't understand the counterplay, in a very disproportionate fashion, where at higher skill levels the AI is cleaved and their pathing manipulated so they become an unreliable resource.

 

Yes I think any change would need to be accompanied by clones receiving the "phantasm effect". Which is to say that they are very obviously not the real Mesmer. Would finally put an end to the complaints that finding the real Mesmer is just too annoying.

 

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

 

 

> I did like the concept idea one person came up with of instead of clones and phantasmals, getting phantasmal armor count instead.

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/100500/hammer-mesmer-elite-spec-concept-the-occluder

> This would get rid of clones and phantasmals in the playing field which has problems for both mesmers and their opponents, but keep the shatter mechanic in place for mesmers to use. Which you can play with in many ways, like to make up for the clones running to targets to hit instead have the shatter be 600/900/1200 range pbaoe, range and strength increased with armor count as usual. Defenses of course would have to be improved for a change like that.

 

I like this idea as well, since it at least removes clones from the battlefield but retains their ability to still contribute. Similar to @"Allarius.5670" post at the top of the thread, with clones forming around you to keep them safe from harm but obviously far more thought out.

[ASP.8093]

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> No it would be bad. Shatters would have to lose their AoE component because you can't have untargetable indestructible NPCs hurt players.

 

Sure you can! Because all you need to do is dodge and the clone's gone. Think of them as glorified projectiles rather than NPCs.

[Senqu.8054]

> @"ASP.8093" said:

> > @"Yoci.2481" said:

> > No it would be bad. Shatters would have to lose their AoE component because you can't have untargetable indestructible NPCs hurt players.

>

> Sure you can! Because all you need to do is dodge and the clone's gone. Think of them as glorified projectiles rather than NPCs.

 

This is not well thought out. If you focus an support there is no way the support would be able to stop the clones. So you have small little evil aoe mines that follow the target. I would be very careful with something like this

[mortrialus.3062]

No but clones should definitely be tankier.

[dandamanno.4136]

Strange, the dev team didn't use any of these suggestions!

 

Oh well, good thing they nerfed Mirage Retreat though. Just kidding. Try Guardian!

[Armen.1483]

While I agree it is a problem in wvw (and maybe in pvp), clones and especially phantasms don't die in pve for me. Even in worst encounters you should shatter those clones so fast that they don't have the time to get destroyed, and phantasms are tanky enough to do their damage fast enough. However phantasms being interrupted happens sometimes which sucks. If you are having problems with clones dying in pve, you are playing mesmer wrong imo, it shouldn't happen normally.

My answer: No.

However if you are really getting frustrated of your phantasms being interrupted, you can run the inspirations' "protected phantasms" trait, but meh.

[Daishi.6027]

I think it's fine, in PvE AoEs don't kill them anyways.

 

I get why they are tangible, but are they not illusions in individuals mind? I doubt it would happen but it would be interesting if **only the target** could attack clones. Balances out since they are single target, and only condi can produce reasonable damage from them.

 

Phantasms looking different could be akin to a crafted illusion that all can see, and would of-course be attackable and since that is part of the counter play, that should remain.

 

Things like Shatters are a cleave on the target and I don't see a reason why they shouldn't retain their AoE effect in this situation, you focus all your mental energies to a point and cause an tangible explosion of psychic damage, anyone near getting hit makes sense.

 

For PvP balancing though there is no reason why they shouldn't be attack able, and frankly is part of the biggest reason why I consider Power Mesmer (maybe more so Mirage) to be the most fair build in game. Literally every class and every build has a reasonable method to counter Mesmer's main resource. And by comparison you can't simply cleave away a thieves initiative, or a warriors adrenaline, and contrasting illusions to the tenacity of ranger pets is no contest.

(To bad CMC and the bias of cry babies in pvp don't see it that way.)

 

Being 100% realistic regarding WvW and PvP there may be wiggle room to make illusions immune to ground targeted or radius around you AoE skills, but still allow for auto attack cleaves, and a few other types of cleave to land. But I think there would need to be a strong enough argument that the average player was adept enough to already utilize the counter play I mentioned above, which has always another facet in the "mesmer balance issue", particularly when the ones who are vocal clearly can't. However, frankly in competitive modes I don't think it's an unreasonable standard to apply considering what is allowed to exist and thrive.

[DraconusShade.4590]

I don’t understand why people don’t want phantasms to be invulnerable. There are myriad arguments for clones and I am not clear as to what the solution could be, maybe they should take less damage from everyone who is not the target.

As for phantasms they are merely **skill effects**, they exists as flavour and nothing more, the old phantasms were treated as NPCs because they had no expiry time. The new ones are just projectiles! They simply deliver damage and disappear, the new phantasms act like projectiles in that they are not persistent, their attacks can be blocked and dodged.

They should no longer be treated as NPCs and they should **never** be targetable. And they should really redo the traits that give phantasms boons and whatnot, those are just redundant and continue to treat them like their old design.

If phantasms can be killed then I vote that people should be able to grab other player’s weapons and throw them away because both these concepts are equally ridiculous.

[dandamanno.4136]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> I think it's fine, in PvE AoEs don't kill them anyways.

 

 

> @"Armen.1483" said:

> While I agree it is a problem in wvw (and maybe in pvp), clones and especially phantasms don't die in pve for me. Even in worst encounters you should shatter those clones so fast that they don't have the time to get destroyed, and phantasms are tanky enough to do their damage fast enough.

 

Wow, it's hard to believe your experience is so different from my own. It's basically a daily thing for me. It doesn't even have to be a huge amount of AoE, just a stronger than average enemy will delete any clones next to it with a good AoE smash. I mean sure most times at the start of a fight you can quickly create and shatter 3 clones but while your shatters on on CD you have to wait, and waiting means dead clones.

 

It's just a constant thing with Mesmer:

Big hit AoE kill clone-> goodbye resource for shatter

Enemy dies too quickly-> goodbye resource for shatter

Big event with tonnes of red on the floor->goodbye resource again

WvW big fights-> you will never, ever have more than one clone up at a time -> goodbye resource for DPS, utility, healing etc...

 

No other class has this unreliable resource problem. I love the Mesmer aesthetic, but as I play other classes more these days it really makes me wonder why I put up with such a problematic mechanic.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"dandamanno.4136" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > I think it's fine, in PvE AoEs don't kill them anyways.

>

>

> > @"Armen.1483" said:

> > While I agree it is a problem in wvw (and maybe in pvp), clones and especially phantasms don't die in pve for me. Even in worst encounters you should shatter those clones so fast that they don't have the time to get destroyed, and phantasms are tanky enough to do their damage fast enough.

>

> Wow, it's hard to believe your experience is so different from my own. It's basically a daily thing for me. It doesn't even have to be a huge amount of AoE, just a stronger than average enemy will delete any clones next to it with a good AoE smash. I mean sure most times at the start of a fight you can quickly create and shatter 3 clones but while your shatters on on CD you have to wait, and waiting means dead clones.

>

> It's just a constant thing with Mesmer:

> Big hit AoE kill clone-> goodbye resource for shatter

> Enemy dies too quickly-> goodbye resource for shatter

> Big event with tonnes of red on the floor->goodbye resource again

> WvW big fights-> you will never, ever have more than one clone up at a time -> goodbye resource for DPS, utility, healing etc...

>

> No other class has this unreliable resource problem. I love the Mesmer aesthetic, but as I play other classes more these days it really makes me wonder why I put up with such a problematic mechanic.

 

I mean your last statment is VERY true, welcome to the constant and consistent double standards of mesmer; it gets even worse in PvP.

 

But it was quite a long time ago when they decided to make illusions (and pets in general) immune to AoEs in PvE. There are some exceptions, particularly single target skills that cleave when already targeting your illusions. But the vast majority shouldn't be cleaving your illusions away.

 

I may be mistaken, like that may only be true for bosses or something? but personally, I still have the old habitual mentality to stagger as to try and not keep them clumped together, and that bleeds through from PvP and long ago before any changes like that existed; so I might be mitigating it and not recognize it. But I'm fairly certain they are just flat out immune.

[dandamanno.4136]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"dandamanno.4136" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > I think it's fine, in PvE AoEs don't kill them anyways.

> >

> >

> > > @"Armen.1483" said:

> > > While I agree it is a problem in wvw (and maybe in pvp), clones and especially phantasms don't die in pve for me. Even in worst encounters you should shatter those clones so fast that they don't have the time to get destroyed, and phantasms are tanky enough to do their damage fast enough.

> >

> > Wow, it's hard to believe your experience is so different from my own. It's basically a daily thing for me. It doesn't even have to be a huge amount of AoE, just a stronger than average enemy will delete any clones next to it with a good AoE smash. I mean sure most times at the start of a fight you can quickly create and shatter 3 clones but while your shatters on on CD you have to wait, and waiting means dead clones.

> >

> > It's just a constant thing with Mesmer:

> > Big hit AoE kill clone-> goodbye resource for shatter

> > Enemy dies too quickly-> goodbye resource for shatter

> > Big event with tonnes of red on the floor->goodbye resource again

> > WvW big fights-> you will never, ever have more than one clone up at a time -> goodbye resource for DPS, utility, healing etc...

> >

> > No other class has this unreliable resource problem. I love the Mesmer aesthetic, but as I play other classes more these days it really makes me wonder why I put up with such a problematic mechanic.

>

> I mean your last statment is VERY true, welcome to the constant and consistent double standards of mesmer; it gets even worse in PvP.

>

> But it was quite a long time ago when they decided to make illusions (and pets in general) immune to AoEs in PvE. There are some exceptions, particularly single target skills that cleave when already targeting your illusions. But the vast majority shouldn't be cleaving your illusions away.

>

> I may be mistaken, like that may only be true for bosses or something? but personally, I still have the old habitual mentality to stagger as to try and not keep them clumped together, and that bleeds through from PvP and long ago before any changes like that existed; so I might be mitigating it and not recognize it. But I'm fairly certain they are just flat out immune.

 

I just tested and they most definitely take damage from ground based AoE. I tested on some risen giants in Orr that spit these little AoE pools everywhere and the clones took steady damage from them.

 

They are immune to environmental hazards like poison clouds and lava and such.

 

Eidt: Looking at the GW2wiki page for clones at the bottom they have all the changes over the years and there is no mention of clones gaining any damage immunity at any point. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Clone

[Daishi.6027]

> @"dandamanno.4136" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"dandamanno.4136" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > I think it's fine, in PvE AoEs don't kill them anyways.

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Armen.1483" said:

> > > > While I agree it is a problem in wvw (and maybe in pvp), clones and especially phantasms don't die in pve for me. Even in worst encounters you should shatter those clones so fast that they don't have the time to get destroyed, and phantasms are tanky enough to do their damage fast enough.

> > >

> > > Wow, it's hard to believe your experience is so different from my own. It's basically a daily thing for me. It doesn't even have to be a huge amount of AoE, just a stronger than average enemy will delete any clones next to it with a good AoE smash. I mean sure most times at the start of a fight you can quickly create and shatter 3 clones but while your shatters on on CD you have to wait, and waiting means dead clones.

> > >

> > > It's just a constant thing with Mesmer:

> > > Big hit AoE kill clone-> goodbye resource for shatter

> > > Enemy dies too quickly-> goodbye resource for shatter

> > > Big event with tonnes of red on the floor->goodbye resource again

> > > WvW big fights-> you will never, ever have more than one clone up at a time -> goodbye resource for DPS, utility, healing etc...

> > >

> > > No other class has this unreliable resource problem. I love the Mesmer aesthetic, but as I play other classes more these days it really makes me wonder why I put up with such a problematic mechanic.

> >

> > I mean your last statment is VERY true, welcome to the constant and consistent double standards of mesmer; it gets even worse in PvP.

> >

> > But it was quite a long time ago when they decided to make illusions (and pets in general) immune to AoEs in PvE. There are some exceptions, particularly single target skills that cleave when already targeting your illusions. But the vast majority shouldn't be cleaving your illusions away.

> >

> > I may be mistaken, like that may only be true for bosses or something? but personally, I still have the old habitual mentality to stagger as to try and not keep them clumped together, and that bleeds through from PvP and long ago before any changes like that existed; so I might be mitigating it and not recognize it. But I'm fairly certain they are just flat out immune.

>

> I just tested and they most definitely take damage from ground based AoE. I tested on some risen giants in Orr that spit these little AoE pools everywhere and the clones took steady damage from them.

>

> They are immune to environmental hazards like poison clouds and lava and such.

>

> Eidt: Looking at the GW2wiki page for clones at the bottom they have all the changes over the years and there is no mention of clones gaining any damage immunity at any point. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Clone

 

The wiki information is not as complete as I'd like unfortunately, but I found the reference.

My apologies it is not a flat immunity it is a 95% damage reduction.

 

A reference from 2015 for a global change to player minions: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Upcoming-Global-Change-to-Player-Minions/page/1#post5625354

 

and here is the corresponding patch notes: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-October-23-2015

 

If your illusions are exploding left and right the 5% of the dealt damage is probably what's doing it. I don't know why you're having such a noticeable issue in PvE tho. If condi I find them replenishing themselves fast enough with normal skill usage, and for power I often am shattering before making new phants.

Rarely do I just lose everything when trying to set something up other than a target dying.

[Koen.1327]

if phantasms become immune you can just toss disenchanters in wvw blobs no?

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"dandamanno.4136" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > @"dandamanno.4136" said:

> > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > I think it's fine, in PvE AoEs don't kill them anyways.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"Armen.1483" said:

> > > > > While I agree it is a problem in wvw (and maybe in pvp), clones and especially phantasms don't die in pve for me. Even in worst encounters you should shatter those clones so fast that they don't have the time to get destroyed, and phantasms are tanky enough to do their damage fast enough.

> > > >

> > > > Wow, it's hard to believe your experience is so different from my own. It's basically a daily thing for me. It doesn't even have to be a huge amount of AoE, just a stronger than average enemy will delete any clones next to it with a good AoE smash. I mean sure most times at the start of a fight you can quickly create and shatter 3 clones but while your shatters on on CD you have to wait, and waiting means dead clones.

> > > >

> > > > It's just a constant thing with Mesmer:

> > > > Big hit AoE kill clone-> goodbye resource for shatter

> > > > Enemy dies too quickly-> goodbye resource for shatter

> > > > Big event with tonnes of red on the floor->goodbye resource again

> > > > WvW big fights-> you will never, ever have more than one clone up at a time -> goodbye resource for DPS, utility, healing etc...

> > > >

> > > > No other class has this unreliable resource problem. I love the Mesmer aesthetic, but as I play other classes more these days it really makes me wonder why I put up with such a problematic mechanic.

> > >

> > > I mean your last statment is VERY true, welcome to the constant and consistent double standards of mesmer; it gets even worse in PvP.

> > >

> > > But it was quite a long time ago when they decided to make illusions (and pets in general) immune to AoEs in PvE. There are some exceptions, particularly single target skills that cleave when already targeting your illusions. But the vast majority shouldn't be cleaving your illusions away.

> > >

> > > I may be mistaken, like that may only be true for bosses or something? but personally, I still have the old habitual mentality to stagger as to try and not keep them clumped together, and that bleeds through from PvP and long ago before any changes like that existed; so I might be mitigating it and not recognize it. But I'm fairly certain they are just flat out immune.

> >

> > I just tested and they most definitely take damage from ground based AoE. I tested on some risen giants in Orr that spit these little AoE pools everywhere and the clones took steady damage from them.

> >

> > They are immune to environmental hazards like poison clouds and lava and such.

> >

> > Eidt: Looking at the GW2wiki page for clones at the bottom they have all the changes over the years and there is no mention of clones gaining any damage immunity at any point. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Clone

>

> The wiki information is not as complete as I'd like unfortunately, but I found the reference.

> My apologies it is not a flat immunity it is a 95% damage reduction.

>

> A reference from 2015 for a global change to player minions: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Upcoming-Global-Change-to-Player-Minions/page/1#post5625354

>

> and here is the corresponding patch notes: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-October-23-2015

>

> If your illusions are exploding left and right the 5% of the dealt damage is probably what's doing it. I don't know why you're having such a noticeable issue in PvE tho. If condi I find them replenishing themselves fast enough with normal skill usage, and for power I often am shattering before making new phants.

> Rarely do I just lose everything when trying to set something up other than a target dying.

 

from what I can tell some enemy attacks are gliched and do full dmg to clones/phantasms and wipe them shrug.

as for the pvp.

the least they could do is make phantasms take reduced dmg from aoe attacks by 50%, they have about 3,7k HP and light armor, legit die to 2 ticks of most aoe, some even cleave it in 1 hit

cough, corona lich auto etc

[Gogdarth.6741]

I liked the suggestion of clones becoming invulnerable, but just a buildable resource. While I get why it's supposed to be a part of the counterplay, if we compare Mesmer to let's say a Warrior - they don't lose adrenaline basically ever, while we can lose our entire skill after setup by people basically running away. However, I'd like to add few things to it to make it fair;

 

I get the "aesthetic" thing and I get that it'll mean that in PvP modes mesmer will lose it's juking memes. Let's be real for a moment and just say it directly - not like anyone good enough ever got confused by mesmer's clones. Bads would stop crying about being confused by visual clutter. I suggest we make clones work visually kind of like Warframe's Mirage - they're invulnerable and untargetable, but exist on fixed points around the mesmer and mimic their moves in sync, providing visual feedback for others on how hard the next shatter would be. To compensate for the loss in utility and attack power (since i don't think they should be attacking unless you're Mirage), mesmer could have new traits that allow more things to scale off of a number of illusions - think Adrenal Health, but not garbage and for different things. For instance, loss of potential condition damage could be compensated with a new trait that gives you condi to attacks for more illusions in your disposal, or after a F2 shatter.

 

Phantasms are literally just skill effects at this point. They shouldn't have two ways of counterplay while also eating CD and also being your clone-building source. It's like saying that, indeed, Ranger's Maul should have a killable entity you can kill before it damages you. It just makes no sense. Chrono seems to be trying to promote a phantasm-based playstyle, but until they're at this spot - it's never going to be any more viable than it already is for different gamemodes. I'd also love to see some phantasms reworked entirely, like Defender, Disenchanter, Warden, Rogue, Mage, Swordsman. Basically they're all bad save for Berserker and maybe Avenger, but even these are kind of weak.

 

Mirage could consume illusions with ambushes (and have IH as baseline), and to address the "no counterplay" issue - ambushes become available after the dodge, not during it, so you can interrupt them. Basically, it'd make clone-based playstyle of more of a shatter alternatives, and we could be taking it half a step further by giving it's shatters more of ambush-enhancing properties, than actual shatter mechanics. I know it's probably not a very popular way of doing it, but I kinda feel like it'll be a good middle ground between spec theme and usefulness - besides, it'll increase ambush usability too since all of the additional clone effects would be happening not from the hands of random NPCs, but from directly-controlled illusions at fixed points, making it a whole lot more reliable.

[Yoci.2481]

Ambush becomes available after the dodge... hmm... could be interesting.

[Armen.1483]

You forget a very important aspect of phantasms too. As they are targetable and are counted as "allies", they CAN have boons. So if you wanna make em "indistructable" and "intargetable" chrono will lose a lot of damage because of phantasms not having boons and clones not having superspeed on shatter and I am against that.

[Sodeni.6041]

Yes they should. They are not THAT great to justify them being able to killed (almost instantly a lot of times) in PvE and competitive modes. No other class has a class mechanic that can be "destroyed" except Ranger pets but they can heal them, are way tankier and they can swap them out and instantly recover them if they do so.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

As Phantasms are the skills, yes, they should be invulnerable. They should also not get boons/conditions and be re-balanced as such.

 

I used to think Clones should not be invulnerable, but they are giving scourges back triggering shades in both places, and you can't target a shade to get rid of the floor is lava in WvW, so at this point as they are key to our profession mechanic, they should also be invulnerable like Shades get to be.

 

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> No it would be bad. Shatters would have to lose their AoE component because you can't have untargetable indestructible NPCs hurt players.

 

Sand Shades say hi. Cause what else do you call those?

 

 

[Taril.8619]

It could be quite possible to have both Clones and Phantasms be not only untargetable and invulnerable, but also reliable.

 

Phantasms can easily just become skill effects. I.e;

- **Illusionary Berserker** - Instead of throwing out an illusionary greatsword at the target and then having the Berserker spawn... Just wind up a spinning throw and have the Berserker be the projectile that flies out. Simply make it a line target skill and voila.

- **Illusionary Mage** - The cast time now consists of making the Mage appear and do its animation for the flame blast.

- **Illusionary Warden** - Cast animation throws an illusionary axe which then makes the Warden materialize and do its thing (Simply acting like any other Field)

- **Phantasmal Duelist** - The tri-shot materializes into the Duelist who then shoots its load on your target.

- **Phantasmal Swordsman** - As you do the stab animation for the strike, the Swordsman appears in front of you, as you finish the strike the Swordsman teleports to your target and does his combo.

 

Clones, could be reworked to no longer be persistent. With of course changes to certain traits and skills (To account for the loss of Condition application). Instead, you simply gain your Clone Pips whenever you'd normally generate a clone.

 

Then activating a Shatter could simply spawn 1-3 clones (Depending on how many pips you had) that spawn a set distance away from your target and then leap at them and explode. Thus allowing them to land reliably, but with the double edge that it means dodging can more reliably negate shatters too.

 

This needn't even mess with certain skill effects either, such as Axes of Symmetry, Mirror Images and Illusionary Ambush, which could create untargetable "Clones" for the skill that simply do the animation then disappear with the classic bufferfly effect 1 second later.

 

With both of these changes, Mesmer's Illusions no longer would be a clunky and unreliable mechanic.

 

As far as "Not receiving boons" go... Well, they'd simply utilize the boons you have on yourself. Persistence of Memory trait could disappear and all those "Your Phantasms get X boon" traits simply become "Gain X boon when you use a Phantasm skill"

[dandamanno.4136]

> @"Armen.1483" said:

> You forget a very important aspect of phantasms too. As they are targetable and are counted as "allies", they CAN have boons. So if you wanna make em "indistructable" and "intargetable" chrono will lose a lot of damage because of phantasms not having boons and clones not having superspeed on shatter and I am against that.

 

Pretty sure this could be coded around. Phantasm spawning with "invulnerable" buff could be one way.