So, the change to mount stomp seems reasonable..

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> /shrugs. Sounds like the problem is immunity to CC and difficulty of dismounting. I mean WvW was fine without mounts too...

 

Except that the act of 'stomping' is supposed to have a cast time, whether it be done manually, Reaper Execute, Daredevil Finishing Blow, Warrior Battle Standard or even a Function Gyro. The Warclaw stomp was instant and by definition not interrupt-able.

 

If ANET removed the health bar and cc immunity from the Warclaw but left the stomp, it would be more difficult to land successfully, but it would still allow a player to stomp instantly, something that normally has a 3 second cast time (or less if you use one of the abilities above), and normally requires some preparation to pull off successfully, either with stealth, stability, etc to avoid being interrupted. But a stomp is still faster than DPSing a downed state enemy (where players at even 1% downed state health can still get an instant rally) especially after the damage nerf in February, and meanwhile the Warclaw stomp was instant and AoE.

 

So, many will say that if downed state didn't exist, there would be no problem. Well, downed state exists.

Others would say if the Warclaw was never introduced, there would be no problem. Well, the warclaw exists.

 

In a world where both downed state and the warclaw exists, ANET's decision to remove the stomp now fixes an imbalance they introduced. The warclaw no longer gives free, effortless and instant stomps, but players can still get in some cleave damage by pouncing on them.

 

Now, if ANET can just realize that an attack from an 8k health CC immune mount shouldn't be critting for 4-5K in a competitive environment where average health pools are 16k, and nerfs that down to 1-1.5k or so, we'll be good. Maybe around October?

 

[SWI.4127]

> @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:

> Got me thinking, does the balance team talk to comp groups or meta zerg guild leaders asking them what they want updated in WvW?

> These siege changes and warclaw changes kinda benefits them enormously.

> Atm there are utility/F5 skills/runes thats just too good when raising down enemies. They not even touched.

 

That's definitely not true. Merciful Intervention, main rez skill for a long time was nerfed to the point where it's not even used anymore. Transfuse also got nerfed in the February patch. Glyph of Renewal was also nerfed this previous patch.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > /shrugs. Sounds like the problem is immunity to CC and difficulty of dismounting. I mean WvW was fine without mounts too...

>

> Except that the act of 'stomping' is supposed to have a cast time, whether it be done manually, Reaper Execute, Daredevil Finishing Blow, Warrior Battle Standard or even a Function Gyro. The Warclaw stomp was instant and by definition not interrupt-able.

 

The game has changed a lot since release. Stomping in large scale is extremely impractical outside of safe stomps and cleave is dominant now. I thought the finisher brought things back over to the finishing side, but on the subject of being able to CC a warclaw...

 

> So, many will say that if downed state didn't exist, there would be no problem. Well, downed state exists.

> Others would say if the Warclaw was never introduced, there would be no problem. Well, the warclaw exists.

 

Well, personally I believe in tuning as opposed to straight up removing. 3 to 1 would have been a good adjustment. I also think downed state itself should be nerfed.

 

> In a world where both downed state and the warclaw exists, ANET's decision to remove the stomp now fixes an imbalance they introduced. The warclaw no longer gives free, effortless and instant stomps, but players can still get in some cleave damage by pouncing on them.

 

You really shouldn't bother at all with the pounce as OP's screenshot suggests.

>

> Now, if ANET can just realize that an attack from an 8k health CC immune mount shouldn't be critting for 4-5K in a competitive environment where average health pools are 16k, and nerfs that down to 1-1.5k or so, we'll be good. Maybe around October?

>

 

Way too optimistic. Incidentally, I would have kept the stomp and removed most (if not all) of the damage)

[rigormortis.8796]

Just wanted to add my opinion that getting rid of mount stomp is a bad idea. Never heard players complaining about it so why was it done?

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"rigormortis.8796" said:

> Just wanted to add my opinion that getting rid of mount stomp is a bad idea. Never heard players complaining about it so why was it done?

Friend, if you're going to troll at least put some more effort into it, please.

 

[Vova.2640]

2 things.

first, it is a GREAT change. they could buff warclaw speed a bit, make it more useful for siege, etc. but it should not be affecting combat directly. period.

second, its funny how its a few players from a very specific server that was known to HARD abuse the mount stomps that are bringing these changes up as negative. classic.

 

overall it is a good change. that and the ac nerfs. now if only their nerfed drag banner 5 instead of 1 and 2 tho..

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Vova.2640" said:

>

> its funny how its a few players from a very specific server that was known to HARD abuse the mount stomps that are bringing these changes up as negative. classic.

>

 

You like it because you don't like me.

 

Why be so verbacious? big posts poorly conceal small ideas

 

[Mystic Moon Maiden.3786]

Anet has no clue about anything. First, they nerf power so that "Condi is King" and then they completely gutted the Warclaw making it totally useless. Why introduce a mount if it offers you zero perks? Anet needs to get in touch with a large selection of their WvW player base and not just the handful of whiney tailed babies they listen to all the time.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > > > Rip warclaw. One of the few things that actually aided against a larger or compd group when your server didnt have one. VIva la blob.

> > > >

> > > > the people who suffered most often from the mount stomp were those who were outnumbered...not from those they were fighting, but from the rando who happened to be passing by or returning to tag who scored a cheap, effortless and undeserved kill by pressing their 1 key.

> > >

> > > Yup we get lots of successful rezzes off while a swarm of scourges stand around us doing aoe. Same with traditional stomps, totally doable in the middle of an enemy zerg.

> > > <,<

> > >

> >

> > I honestly have no idea what people are talking about the bigger zerg using mount stomp.

> > Honestly, I see very few scenarios that a 1 target stomp would benefit the larger groups, and in the ones that do, it really doesn't matter anyways.

>

> Because you're not looking beyond organized zerg vs zerg. That may be what reset night looks like, but the other 6 days of the week, spread across timezones that aren't prime, that isn't the norm. Instead what you have are two (or 3) groups of disparate sizes battling it out...and the randos that swarm around both, like toilet bugs, and that's where the issue is. The people not in squad, not in comms, free to do whatever they want...they are the ones that made use of the Warstomp.

>

> You move your squad into the Lords room or base of the tower, you fight it out, downs are generated on both sides, and then BAM...along comes some green on their mount, insta-stomping your downed players and rallying the enemy. This happens on both offense and defense, and I maintain that this benefits the **server** with more players because, statistically, the more players a server has on the field, the higher the probability they will be hanging around the zerg, or just passing by to score a free kill they didn't earn.

>

> If they want to join in the fight and cleave a downed player, or go through the work of an actual stomp - welcome to the party pal! But that isn't what the Warclaw enabled them to do.

>

> And before anyone gets on me for ragging on randos, the same applies to respawns, again on either offense or defense, someone riding back to the battle on their warclaw will take the opportunity to leap in and score a kill, while those dismounted can do very little to stop them if they are already in the middle of a fight, because 8k health and immune to CC, yada yada yada.

>

> And you're saying you've never experienced that? Ok. Well I won't call you a liar, but I will point out that just because you've never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and happen a lot.

>

> In your average group fight if I get defeated 10 times, 6 of them will be by cleave, 1 by a stomp, and 3 by a Warclaw. Would I have been rallied those 3 times? I can't say, possibly not, and likely would have perished to AoE cleave. But I can also tell you the numerous times I've been in a group on SMC Lord's when a member suddenly went into downed state, and before we could get them up some John Mcclane wannabe pounced in on their mount for the kill. And that happens whether we are the 20 players surrounded by a cloud of 40, or 40 players keeping 20 defenders at bay. Because without concentrated / coordinated attacks, you're not dismounting a Warclaw player before they can stomp. .

>

> If that is the type of gameplay you want, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion - thankfully after all this time though, ANET finally saw reason.

>

 

On a more happier side note, I am able to enjoy my finishers again without the random mount stomp coming from nowhere before the animation finishes.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

>

> > If you want to limit blob, there need to be something that destroy big groups more easily than small groups.

> > Should be arrow cart role.

>

> No. Because guess what? No matter how much you buff the siege damage to players, it's ALWAYS going to hurt small groups more than large ones. Buffing ballistas to do more damage to siege and hitting more reliably, so you can destroy the blobs siege would be a lot more helpful. I miss the days when you could stealth behind and kill a few trebs without it taking so long you have little chance of succeeding.

 

You're not thinking outside of the box

Make the damage increase per target hit !

Adjust base damage, +10% damage / target hit.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

 

> Except that the act of 'stomping' is supposed to have a cast time, whether it be done manually, Reaper Execute, Daredevil Finishing Blow, Warrior Battle Standard or even a Function Gyro. The Warclaw stomp was instant and by definition not interrupt-able.

>

 

I would say the the several seconds of a large very visible mounted player running at your downed is the 'cast time'.

 

[Celsith.2753]

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> >

> > > If you want to limit blob, there need to be something that destroy big groups more easily than small groups.

> > > Should be arrow cart role.

> >

> > No. Because guess what? No matter how much you buff the siege damage to players, it's ALWAYS going to hurt small groups more than large ones. Buffing ballistas to do more damage to siege and hitting more reliably, so you can destroy the blobs siege would be a lot more helpful. I miss the days when you could stealth behind and kill a few trebs without it taking so long you have little chance of succeeding.

>

> You're not thinking outside of the box

> Make the damage increase per target hit !

> Adjust base damage, +10% damage / target hit.

 

I don't think adding in even more calculations for the server to handle would do much other than blow them up once and for all :/

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

>

> > Except that the act of 'stomping' is supposed to have a cast time, whether it be done manually, Reaper Execute, Daredevil Finishing Blow, Warrior Battle Standard or even a Function Gyro. The Warclaw stomp was instant and by definition not interrupt-able.

> >

>

> I would say the the several seconds of a large very visible mounted player running at your downed is the 'cast time'.

>

 

True, and how do you interupt a mount engaging which is immune during it's dodges while it is rushing at the downed player while you yourself are in combat?

 

The fact something is visible is pretty meaningless if it is immune no?

[Sleepwalker.1398]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> > @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:

> > Got me thinking, does the balance team talk to comp groups or meta zerg guild leaders asking them what they want updated in WvW?

> > These siege changes and warclaw changes kinda benefits them enormously.

> > Atm there are utility/F5 skills/runes thats just too good when raising down enemies. They not even touched.

>

> That's definitely not true. Merciful Intervention, main rez skill for a long time was nerfed to the point where it's not even used anymore. Transfuse also got nerfed in the February patch. Glyph of Renewal was also nerfed this previous patch.

 

So you saying.....these are nerfs?

December 03, 2019 Reduced recharge to 90 seconds in all game modes. Lowered casting time from 3.25 seconds to 2 seconds.

March 27, 2018 Reduced the cooldown from 165 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW.

 

All i see these eles do is just kinda instant heal up a downed person.

[SWI.4127]

> @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:

> > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:

> > > Got me thinking, does the balance team talk to comp groups or meta zerg guild leaders asking them what they want updated in WvW?

> > > These siege changes and warclaw changes kinda benefits them enormously.

> > > Atm there are utility/F5 skills/runes thats just too good when raising down enemies. They not even touched.

> >

> > That's definitely not true. Merciful Intervention, main rez skill for a long time was nerfed to the point where it's not even used anymore. Transfuse also got nerfed in the February patch. Glyph of Renewal was also nerfed this previous patch.

>

> So you saying.....these are nerfs?

> December 03, 2019 Reduced recharge to 90 seconds in all game modes. Lowered casting time from 3.25 seconds to 2 seconds.

> March 27, 2018 Reduced the cooldown from 165 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW.

>

> All i see these eles do is just kinda instant heal up a downed person.

 

Most recent patch was a slight nerf to glyph, and you conveniently ignored the other 2 skills I listed. I'm saying they do get nerfs as well, not that they are all perfectly balanced. edit: actually the last patch didn't really nerf glyph, I misread it, so that's my bad. MI was the big one though, that used to be the main rez skill and got nerfed to uselessness. Transfuse also got nerfed even though it wasn't that good in the first place (and buggy as hell). Scrapper Gyro is pretty much a joke as it dies to a slight breeze.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

>

> On a more happier side note, I am able to enjoy my finishers again without the random mount stomp coming from nowhere before the animation finishes.

 

It is the little things in life that bring us joy. Also something the "remove downed state from the game" folks always seem to forget - many players have spent time and energy to earn finishers and/or spent gold/gems to acquire something that is only used in competitive modes, or against Toxic Alliance / Legendary Bandits in Kryta.

 

[DemonSeed.3528]

I'm guessing if they were to remove something paid like that, then they could do the same for warclaw.

[Lonami.2987]

> @"fuzzyp.6295" said:

> Thank goodness. The original mindset of Warclaw being this major game changing force in large battles was never the correct idea to handle a mount in WvW. I wish they'd just remove the stomp all together, Warclaw already is strong enough as a mobility tool in a game mode where mobility is important.

>

> EDIT: Yes I misread the notes thank you for pointing it out I thought Superior Maul still had a single stomp on it! :)

 

Removing the warclaw stomp was a mistake, for a very simple reason: It was there as a counterweight for the improved mobility. With the warclaw you arrive to battle faster, so you need to remove people from those fights faster as well. Stomp was the perfect solution for it, and now it's gone, good job.

 

The correct way to solve warclaw stomp abuses was to add warclaw counters. For example, make crowd control skills dismount plus knock back enemy targets. This way you can't just get free stomps by running around, since anyone with a ranged cc skill could dismount and stun you, which would be lethal if close to multiple enemies.

 

> @"rigormortis.8796" said:

> Just wanted to add my opinion that getting rid of mount stomp is a bad idea. Never heard players complaining about it so why was it done?

 

Same thing as always, whiny minority that is angry they can't dominate combat and abuse other players anymore.

 

Reminder that the ones complaining about warclaw stomp, are the same people who complained the warclaw allowed people to escape from gankers, the same people who now want downed to be removed, or the same people who've hated on siege since release.

 

It boils down to a pretty simple concept: Reduce the game to things they're good at. I'm not good at siege? Ask it to be removed because it's OP. I'm angry I can get killed far more easily now that warclaws can stomp? Cry about it.

 

ArenaNet should have never listened to these guys. If they were in charge WvW would be a plain map with no NPCs and no structures.

 

> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > @"gebrechen.5643" said:

> > The banner is still better because it's usable while in combat. I don't really see an army of mounts waiting outside a fight just to finish off people.

>

> I definitely do see players waiting on mounts

 

Well, while they wait mounted they aren't fighting, so that's a net DPS loss for that team.

 

> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > @"nthmetal.9652" said:

> > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > It should simply be that, a mount that helps players move faster. I just got cuddled by warclaw stomp especially since acs were gutted. It's a step in the right direction agianst siege

> >

> > Let me guess: you are on a high population server and / or have proper link. All this gets way less fun if you constantly find yourself outnumbered. We have few and ever fewer mechanisms to help combat size imbalances. This makes it harder and harder to get fair fights in WvW.

> >

> >

>

> 1 Mounts and siege should not have this much impact on the game. There is already a huge defenders advantage. Twenty to thirty peeps can definitely hold a T2/3 for a significant amount of time.

>

> 2 if you are fighting in off hours or a dead server just transfer.

>

>

 

Well, then it wouldn't be WvW, it would be PvP. You need siege weapons and NPCs if your game mode can't guarantee each team will have the same amount of players.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> Removing the warclaw stomp was a mistake, for a very simple reason: It was there as a counterweight for the improved mobility. With the warclaw you arrive to battle faster, so you need to remove people from those fights faster as well. Stomp was the perfect solution for it, and now it's gone, good job.

>

 

An organized group of players will focus and convert downs into kills, while those less organized and skilled will no longer get risk free conversions just by riding up and pressing 1.

 

Good game play gets rewarded while poor game play does not - exactly how it should be.

 

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> The correct way to solve warclaw stomp abuses was to add warclaw counters. For example, make crowd control skills dismount plus knock back enemy targets. This way you can't just get free stomps by running around, since anyone with a ranged cc skill could dismount and stun you, which would be lethal if close to multiple enemies.

>

Then it just becomes another arms race. Easier to just keep the mount as a mobility tool and that's all. Also, your last sentence would just reward roaming LB ranger / rifle deadeyes with free ez kills from 1500 units.

 

 

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> Same thing as always, whiny minority that is angry they can't dominate combat and abuse other players anymore.

>

> Reminder that the ones complaining about warclaw stomp, are the same people who complained the warclaw allowed people to escape from gankers, the same people who now want downed to be removed, or the same people who've hated on siege since release.

>

> It boils down to a pretty simple concept: Reduce the game to things they're good at. I'm not good at siege? Ask it to be removed because it's OP. I'm angry I can get killed far more easily now that warclaws can stomp? Cry about it.

>

 

That's a fairly inaccurate sweeping statement. I've objected to the mount stomp since the week it was released and I'm against every other point you list. Also FYI, siege still exists in the game, so adding patently false statements to your post is counterproductive to building an argument.

 

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> > I definitely do see players waiting on mounts

>

> Well, while they wait mounted they aren't fighting, so that's a net DPS loss for that team.

>

 

That would be a valid point in any of the PvE sections of this forum, but in WvW the only thing that matters is downed/defeated state, and not downed/defeated state.

 

A conversion of a downed player isn't just a kill, it is also usually a rally. Also the instances of players sitting on their mounts while the battle starts isn't nearly as common as those who were riding towards the battle/OJs, or returning back from spawn - those were usually the ones riding in for risk free conversions.

 

 

[SWI.4127]

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> Well, while they wait mounted they aren't fighting, so that's a net DPS loss for that team.

 

I wouldn't be so sure, have you seen your average pug in this game?

 

Downed state players have 3x their base health. Taking my rev for instance, that would be 52k HP. I believe you start out around 75% of downed state HP when you first down, so that's still 39k HP. With the old mount stomp, 1 player with 1 skill could finish an entire downstate which is tens of thousands of HP. If they happen to finish 3 downed players, it's possible they did over 100k damage with 1 skill with very little risk and many people would agree it takes no skill. I have seen a lot of very mediocre DPS players do way less actually fighting than if they were to just run in and mount stomp. Plus there's very little risk of them rallying people if they just run in and stomp. It was a low-skill cheese mechanic.

[Sovereign.1093]

Mount stomps was downstate with extra steps now it's gone. Mounts are simply now for adding speed to self and allies and that extra hp.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> It was a low-skill cheese mechanic.

And yet people cry loud about removing downstate alltogether which by definition would be the same low-skill cheese mechanic since the end result is the same thing - you instantly die when going down.

 

The forum is so amusingly contradictory at times.

[Yasai.3549]

NOOOO MY AOE PENTA STOMP WHICH BLINDS PEOPLE WITH 5 SUPER FINISHESSSS

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > It was a low-skill cheese mechanic.

> And yet people cry loud about removing downstate alltogether which by definition would be the same low-skill cheese mechanic since the end result is the same thing - you instantly die when going down.

>

> The forum is so amusingly contradictory at times.

 

Yes, an instant stomp using a 8k health CC immune mount moving at the speed of swiftness is totally the same thing, and requires exactly the same amount of coordination and skill as converting downed players with cleave or regular stomps.

[Lalocat.6793]

Logged into WvW for the first time in awhile, and of course the first thing I did was tried to stomp someone and it didn't work. Put it back! :(

 

(Reducing the number of targets on top of removing the fun is just complete overkill btw.)